@meddler: sheen and its items (except lichbane) hold bruiser itemization back.

Critmaster Garen··37 votes·1,504 views

let me explain.

as others pointed out before, item 3053 is probably the most bruiser specific item in the game, due to a lot of its power budget being tied to health and more importantly its base ad dependent scaling.

most squishier carries, and assassins have generally low base ad values and level scalings, while juggernauts have some of the highest base ad values in the game. this guarantees that steraks will be more stat effective on juggernauts and other beefy fighters than anybody else.

on top of that, most squishier carry classes that are geared towards stacking ad items have their kits centered around bonus ad scalings on their abilities and passives. steraks will never be as effective on Riven Zed Lucian and other squishier carries as on juggernauts who have most of their abilities geared towards total ad scalings. which means that the base ad increase off the item doesnt factor into assassin, skirmisher or marksmen abilities and burst and makes it an undesirable item for them.

by using base ad increases and scalings, it would technically be possible to design an entire separate line of fighter items, independent of tank or carry itemization, with little risk of abuse cases by other classes (like the entire phase of brusier skirmishers and assassins). it would also make it possible to better balance fighters by their itemization independent of other classes, and individual fighters by their base stats.

for example if fighter items were designed after this model. a lower base ad scaling on divers compared to juggernauts would force divers to build slightly more into offense, and we wouldnt create situations were Hecarim becomes as tanky as Illaoi

the only thing that prevents us from doing this are these items. item 3057 item 3078 item 3025

the interaction with sheen passives and more base ad increasing items would create an absurd amount of burst especially by item 3078

i think it might be a good idea to look into reworking the scaling of sheen items, to make room for more fighter specific items, and to rework some of the existing items to be more targeted at fighters by base ad increases.

one option would be to simply split item 3057 scaling into a lower base ad dependent component (like 50% base ad) + a level scaling component, so base ad increases dont interact as strongly with sheen.


some fighter items that could be changed to steraks model of base ad increases would be first and foremost item 3022 item 3071

possibly item 3748

and item 3742 damage component

but it would also be possible to add more fighter items based on this concept to the game.

39 Comments

Asayake 5150glow16 votes

I'd pref adding more items, Cleaver is too core for many skirmishers, and Titanic is one of the few onhit items left that are actually really good.

An Enemy Sutando1 votes

Let's add another Assassin item that isn't broken when good in place of EoN so that they aren't forced to go BC and it can be a fighter-specific item.

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

[{quoted}](name=An Enemy Sutando,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kIbAHPkt,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-09-01T10:35:08.304+0000)

Let's add another Assassin item that isn't broken when good in place of EoN so that they aren't forced to go BC and it can be a fighter-specific item.

Cleaver has NEVER been a fighter specific item. Riven and Fiora have used it since the beginning of time, and you need to respect their player base. Especially Riven, as she loses the vast majority of her tank fighting power if she can't build Cleaver

Auz the Ripper2 votes

Almost every physical damage dealer has always used it since the beginning of time.

Ralanr1 votes

Yeah it's got such a fun little history.

Glory ln Death1 votes

GASP! Things have happened! The spoiler was true!

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

Cleaver is a core pick for lots of Divers and I'm pretty sure a few Juggernauts as well.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kIbAHPkt,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-09-01T13:04:30.692+0000)

Cleaver is a core pick for lots of Divers and I'm pretty sure a few Juggernauts as well.

Yeah, but it's good as it is. Hell, it's already really good. If there were changes, it's only to make other items more viable. And not only is that dumb (the other items should be on the same level as cleaver in the first place) it also directly punishes skirmishers when it's only supposed to help bruisers.

Final Spark Lux9 votes

I just want the AP back on sheen. Downvotes inc, I know...but I really liked rushing it. (probably because it was so strong but now I have to sacrifice AP for mana / CDR which isn't worth it if I can't get close to my enemy. So it's probably a good thing they removed the AP)

Ralanr1 votes

I remember AP IBG.

Sire Hippington1 votes

If we get back some AP-ratios on non-mage champs aswell, i'm all for it.

Shuriman Curator3 votes

I'd love to see more fighter specific items +1.

Tommy PickleNose3 votes

I'd really like a juggernaut/fighter sheen item that scaled with health, it wouldn't have utility like a slow like iceborne does but the sheen proc would do a percentage of your health as damage. I don't know how balanced this would be with titanic but i always find myself in a pickle when I usually have iceborne as a core item on a lot of my champs and if they stack ap I always feel terrible investing into iceborne and I don't like trinity much. It would build out of like sheen giants belt and the stupid health stacking item that I can't recall the name of? It's part of titanic and mallets build path.

Asayake 5150glow3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Packin a Wallop,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kIbAHPkt,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-09-01T01:13:06.697+0000)

I'd really like a juggernaut/fighter sheen item that scaled with health, it wouldn't have utility like a slow like iceborne does but the sheen proc would do a percentage of your health as damage. I don't know how balanced this would be with titanic but i always find myself in a pickle when I usually have iceborne as a core item on a lot of my champs and if they stack ap I always feel terrible investing into iceborne and I don't like trinity much. It would build out of like sheen giants belt and the stupid health stacking item that I can't recall the name of? It's part of titanic and mallets build path.

I'd prefer a health scaling dps version, Titanic does have that onhit but it's real power is in the active, and combined with Sheen that would just be waaaay too much burst.

Glory ln Death1 votes

Jaurim's Fist

Mordepool2 votes

This guy gets it.

Kyunsei2 votes

Add a TL : DR as following

TL:DR Put flat number on sheen and Tri-force passive and create new + base AD item (like Sterak)

Mimr2 votes

This is going to get a "no" from me. It would completely kill diversity in AD itemization. I love being able to add some tankiness to AD squishies without completely gutting their bonus AD ratios.

Sire Hippington2 votes

Why not go even harder on the base-ad differnce from melee's vs ranged(i really think the base-stat difference are quite low anyway for how much difference the ranged does on AAs) and then have those items grant bonus ad based on base-ad(item 3052 +upgrades would be nice, so it would be a worthy component item for once) This means base-ad scaleings can be kept fot it's original purpose: high basedamage abillities that aren't absurdly strong when first maxed but instead scale independant of abillity rank aswell. And for the "a lower base ad scaling on divers compared to juggernauts would force divers to build slightly more into offense, and we wouldnt create situations wereHecarim becomes as tanky as Illaoi " issue, Just adjust base tankiness and damage(both from stats and kit) for those champs. One of the big issues for Juggernauts right now is not that they lack offensive or hybrid itemisation, but rather that they lack the needed base-survivabillity to use it. If you want to be relevant on a juggernaut past laneing, you hardly can afford more off items than BC and MAYBE another off-item, the rest has to be fulltank or you die befor ever reaching annyone. Ilaoi prettymuch is an exeption cause her abillities have alot range, she can built very agressive and just play as a sinper, throwing out her Es and stay away, cause with an agressive built, E can take ~70% of any target if you're with your team. So if ilaoi and hecarim have the same tankiness, i'm pretty sure ilaoi still packs more damage, atleast on aoe, and her kit allows her to be quite effective from a distance unlike hecarim, so i don't see an issue with those two getting similar tankiness anyway....

WrÆth2 votes

It's sad that the most bruiser specific item is now being built on Zed Graves and other assassiny type champions

AirKingNeo1 votes

No and why even argue when no one really knows what they're talking about.

TwinkiePro2 votes

Yeah, who'd wanna argue with you right?

AirKingNeo1 votes

Why even care if people are just going to say completely wrong things, claim them a right, and downvote you to oblivion because they're too ignorant to see they are wrong. Even when in face of evidence too!

Like, should I even care about people who endlessly complain about the game without understanding any single issue, fundamentals, game history, mechanics (like the hidden power of Zhonya's active and how good it really is), and other things. Why even argue with people who don't understand a thing and make themselves look like fools, but they're all fools so they refuse to learn. At stop acting like a know-it-all and be open to other's ideas like me.

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

Why even care if people are just going to say completely wrong things, claim them a right, and downvote you to oblivion because they're too ignorant to see they are wrong. Even when in face of evidence too!

Like, should I even care about people who endlessly complain about the game without understanding any single issue, fundamentals, game history, mechanics (like the hidden power of Zhonya's active and how good it really is), and other things. Why even argue with people who don't understand a thing and make themselves look like fools, but they're all fools so they refuse to learn. At stop acting like a know-it-all and be open to other's ideas like me.

Most people here are ignorant %%%%s. I am just wondering where I can go to discuss league without getting constant downvotes for retards that don't respect attempts at helping and or speaking up against x issue that isn't part of the circlejerk.

TwinkiePro1 votes

Ironic calling me a know it all without any presentation yourself. On top of that, i never presented an argument, just pointed out your hypocrisy. be open to ideas mate :)

AirKingNeo1 votes

Question mark??? When did I call you a know-it-all? I called this entire boards know-it-alls. Don't misunderstand and take this as offense to you!

I am no hypocrite. I am simply tired of arguing with foolish fools who know nothing yet act like their are the wisest of men.

TwinkiePro1 votes

I assumed "at" was a mispelling as it seemed out of place with the rest of the sentence and inferred it was "and". My bad lol

Mens Hair Club1 votes

i said this a while ago, glad you remembered it

would all of these items be % base AD amplifiers, then? and would they scale each other up if you buy multiples?

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mens Hair Club,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kIbAHPkt,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-09-01T01:51:29.544+0000)

i said this a while ago, glad you remembered it

would all of these items be % base AD amplifiers, then? and would they scale each other up if you buy multiples?

yea, this might be an addition they have to make to the mechanic.

make it a % increase on base ad, but make them add together before they apply. (additive instead of multiplicative stacking)

for example when you have 100 base ad, and get 2 items that increase by 25%, then youd get 100 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.25) = 150 base ad.

Tychusfindlay9181 votes

" by using total ad scalings... possible... totally separate line of items..."

Darius would need to have his bleed and dunk reworked to utilize total ad scalings reasonably otherwise he would be guttered by such a new line of items that he wouldn't be able to properly utilize.

Or did you completely forget about him critmaster?

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

" by using total ad scalings... possible... totally separate line of items..."

Darius would need to have his bleed and dunk reworked to utilize total ad scalings reasonably otherwise he would be guttered by such a new line of items that he wouldn't be able to properly utilize.

Or did you completely forget about him critmaster?

no i didnt. i dont see an issue with a couple slight scaling changes to 1 or 2 champions when it can benefit all of the bruisers in the long run.

its really the smallest problem. illaoi would need it aswell.

AirKingNeo1 votes

No? That's a huge loss of Cleaver's 40 AD.

Sad Tyrant1 votes

yeah, exactly, nerf the base damage to nothing and then 15/20/25/30% total AD per stack based on dunk level. though that would an early game nerf and a late game buff.

55% total AD on dunk, + 11% per stack, would be a buff

Dengeden1 votes

Hec is often flexible enough to dance between tanky and bruiser builds, otherwise, this idea is great.

Kloqdq1 votes

That would be a great way to balance out Juggs and give them more interesting options. I like it!

PaffWasTaken1 votes

I've heard a lot of people who wanted a Sterak buff/rework, but I personnally think that a whole new item with the same kind of target champions would be better

DragonShea1 votes

I think that fighters need something that forces ADC and other fragile damage dealers away from their items and make them their own. Many Divers have bonus AD scaling which actually forces them to become hybrids due to their base damage falling off and their scaling begins to take over.

Juggs on the other hand, need to have high Base AD so that stay relevant while building tanky as they lack mobility but trade it for strong sustain. I don't mind building tank items with 1 or 2 bruiser items as a jugg. it's only when you get the 3rd bruiser item that you start to screw yourself over I believe.

In short. Juggs should build normally max 2 bruiser items and then tanky while divers should at leave have one tank item to function in the game.

So how do can more beneficial bruiser items make it to the game? For starters I think that strong damage scaling is the key to making juggs powerful while denying Skirmishers and ADC's those items to abuse. Also many ADC's are so Damage driven that durability is not really a concern for them which leaves that issue out, which means that juggs as bruiser should get HP+Damage items as a priority (HP = damage > resistances). So far DMP, SFC, Randuins and thorn mail or decent Armor items, while SV and AH are ok MR items although they are a bit binary.

I am thinking that maybe 2 or 3 more bruiser items should make it into the game that are an alternative to black cleaver and Tri-Force. For starters, I don't know if Sheen should be made fixed damage because some champs could in theory abuse it for extra damage if it does become fixed but if there is gonna be a sheen Item that is gonna scale with base AD It like it to something that scales with HP as well.

example: Hammer of the ancients

450 HP 25 AD

Build path item 3044 +item 3057

Unique passive: Your next auto attack deals 100% base AD + 10 Bonus HP as bonus physical damage and allows your physical attacks to ignore 8% for the targets armor, stacks 2 times (Does not stack with Black Cleavers effect and overrides it's effect)

I think this time would be something that would more tanky juggs since they would need they don't have the AS needed to hit multiple times and they want big up-front damage and it combines the effects of BC and sheen into an item other juggs can use.

Anyways that is just my two cents on the matter.

azrolator1 votes

I like it.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

i know you guys are up to your necks in the new rune/mastery system right now, but it would still be nice if there was some discussion possible here.

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