Just curious.
Why can't people actually abuse Zed during that huge 22 second window where Zed is nothing but a melee Q bot after using his shadow?
People behave as if Zed has super huge mobility in laning when realistically it's significantly more gated than almost any other dash early game. I'm confused.
ChaoticPinecone35 votesYou say its significantly more gated. I disagree. Lets think about other midlaners with mobility pre-6:
W is only form of waveclear and a large part of her damage.
Needs to be in melee range for the shield/damage.
Usually the only reliable way to proc a stun and/or get the 3-hit proc
Needs a minion or enemy champion
Only offensive
Zed's mobility is different because its more versatile. It can be used to poke, but he has other forms of poke without it. It can be used to waveclear, but he has other forms of waveclear without it. It can be used offensively and defensively.
Zed can still waveclear and poke without his W. Other mobile champions like Leblanc cant.
EvilRabbitt3 votesKatarina and Akali...
Masala Chai6 votesKatarina needs a target, and Akali needs an enemy.
EvilRabbitt2 votesI know. I was just pointing out two mid laners you people forgot. And I got downvoted for it. Rip.
48983507DEL115 votes"Needs a minion or enemy champion"
Good thing there aren't any of those in the lane.
CarbRundum11 votesIt means that he can't use it to just dash around everywhere he wants whenever he wants. He's super powerful in the enemy wave, but if he's near his own minions and not the enemies', he has no mobility whatsoever
Guy Fox Teemo4 votes1: Leblanc can just kill you instead, farm after, since her ult is on a 40 second CD. (She also does like 2x the damage of Zed in less time) 2: You have zero idea how Azir works do you? 3: He's played as Tanky top lane Diver anyways, 4: Well if theres no champion, why would you need the mobility? Dumb answer 5: Kills you instantly with no reaction time, trade off for no mobility.
ChaoticPinecone4 votesI think youre missing the point of this thread and the point of my post. It specifically talks about GATED MOBILITY.
Zed and Leblanc are both pretty proficient at killing you. Zed can also kill you and farm after. Or he can farm while killing you. Or he can just farm. I said that Zed's mobility is more versatile - and youre response completely ignores that.
Again, talking about versatility. You dont know how Azir's W works, do you? You dont realize that engaging with it pre-6 is generally not the greatest idea? So its versatility is lower, right?
Is his mobility less gated than Zeds? Youre response isnt really responding to my post.
Because sometimes, just sometimes, you want to use mobility defensively. Sometimes jumping on the enemy champion ISNT what you want to do. And during those situations, ground targeted mobility spells are a lot more useful. Again, we are talking about gated mobility.
Lower single target damage. Lower range. Uses mana. And still less mobile.
Nyhver21 votesBecause either he can get a lead in lane and doesn't need 'w', you can't trade very well with him due to lead/items, or, (I suspect this is the primary reason) people are bad and don't know how to lane so they have no idea how to capitalize on things
Steven Mcburn21 votesMinions come every 30 seconds.
So he clears your minions using W, then pokes you from behind his minions.
At early levels this means you can't harass him back unless you want to tank his minion wave, at later levels he can all in you if you decide you want to punish him. It's not rocket science, if you give a champion a way to clear the wave no one wants to face-tank a bunch of minions just to get a little poke in.
Guy Fox Teemo1 votesBullshit, you can't clear an entire wave, in laning phase, yall spouting BS. At most that will kill one minon and the rest will be at 70%.
Steven Mcburn3 votesLol wtf are you building, ap zed?
Just off of base damages alone (Not including the scaling 130-180% of bonus AD) he deals anywhere from 40-60% to everything in the wave from level 3 on. That's with 0 AD built. Considering with runes and a longsword you deal an extra 50% damage ontop of those bases, you're rolling 60-80% at level 3 on.
I know some of you like to go ham with your anecdotal yawny "i play my champ bad so no one can do things right" but that doesn't change the basic math behind it. Minions don't start the game with 900 hp or something, lmao.
Marshbouy19 votesBecause he clears the wave, probably gets off a lot of poke, then sits back and Q farms. If you want to go in for a trade there is a high chance you will have to go very close to him to get it done, pre 6 this is n't an issue but post 6 he can just ult you and use his ult shadow to kill you.
GayFluffyUnicorn6 votesHe can't clear the way efficently during laning phase. Spamming his Q will lead to low energy,everything on CD so how is he supposed to kill you?
Marshbouy8 votesHe can clear the wave very efficiently during the laning phase. these are two different situations. One where he plays safe and Q farms and one where he punishes you for trying to poke him back
Slamurai Jack17 votesBecause most peoples first instinct when taking damage is to retreat, letting the enemy abuse them for free. This is why champs like Zed and Yasuo completely dominate bad players early game, especially Yasuo.
rtbf221479704 votesSo much this! I still think his Q damage should diminish for each enemy hit prior but for the most part people don't counter poke him early so he snowballs.
Articality3 votesThe reason why people dont want to counter poke is because after you both chucked each other, zed can initiate you whenever he wants. You on the other hand cant.
48983507DEL13 votesThe problem is the range on his harass is pretty long, so the most you can do is zone him from minions to some extent.
Even then, he can play pretty passively by last-hitting with Q, meanwhile you're probably standing in a somewhat pushed-up position as an immobile mage. Even if the jungler doesn't come and kill you, you're still gated by mana while he isn't.
Slamurai Jack4 votesIf Zed is passively farming with Q's, you should be zoning the fuck out of him. He's used his main combat spell to farm, leaving him with absolutely nothing to hit you with. If the enemy laner is using their main skill to farm, you should be being super aggressive.
Mai Waifu Irelia4 votesI think the general problem that occurs after that is it leaves you open as a free gank (unless it's frozen of course) or if zed manages to land a few Q's or a weq combo while you're zoning him he instantly gets control of the lane back. Not really as black and white as "just zone him."
alfavhunter14 votesBecause after zed uses his combo he plays extremely safe till its back up?
Because if he lands his combo he can now all in you without his shadow to force you to:die, flash+ recall, flash and then die when his W is back up
InsanitysTheName3 votesIf you lost that much health from 1 combo, in the 20 secs its down in the early game, you can take a cs loss and recall so that he does not snowball. With armor or health per-level runes it should take 4 or 5 direct w-q-e combos to kill you in the early game.
alfavhunter3 votesIf you lost that much health from 1 combo, in the 20 secs its down in the early game, you can take a cs loss and recall so that he does not snowball. With armor or health per-level runes it should take 4 or 5 direct w-q-e combos to kill you in the early game.
And yet when this argument is used for anivias ER combo it's somehow invalid for MR HP/LVL runes and the fact anivia has to rush mana, but hay don't bring logic like counter runes/ masteries here. It never works
LittleBlast2 votesBecause anivia ER is nigh undodgeable, and does an insane amount of dmg. Also, lower cooldown.
SharbyQue12 votesprobably because with 1 combo + thunderlord's ur too low to aggress on him. 
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TheOvermind11 votesbecause half the time he hits his WEQ combo for half HP chunk and thunderlords proc... DO you really wanna go aggro then ? what stops him from shadow swapping and passive procing you with ignite... ohh hell naw... " but but , his W stays for another 2 seconds before it disappears ", he can always flash and either kill u or force ur flash and recall ...
Akali is SO HOT7 votesThey're too busy posting on boards about how Zed is overpowered and by the time they are finished Zed's W is already back up
Spoofghoul7 votesbecause they are at 30% hp and pushed under their turret after it was used maybe?
doiminat0r36005 votesHis W is just an all in/escape tool. Its up for 4 seconds which at max rank means its only down for 10. This doesn't even count for CDR.
It doesn't help that he doesn't need it to trade, wave clear, or do enough all in ult damage to kill you.
ViashinoWizard9 votesIf Zed has W maxed in lane, you don't have an excuse for losing to him.
doiminat0r36001 votesYes but if you find him in the jungle....
Astôlfo3 votesUh, why would he be in the jungle unless he's roaming? And what does that have anything to do with it?
Im Impotent4 votesUm... what other early dashes are you talking about in terms of mids? Leblanc? 18 seconds, costs mana, no refund. Similar level of mobility. Ekko? 325 range(less than half of zed's shadow's range), less versatile, costs mana, no refund. Corki? 26 second CD. Costs mana. Lower Range. No refund.
You act like a CD is gating the moves ability to get him OUT of a fight, when in reality Zed basically never uses the shadow in lane to get away, he uses it to deal ludicrous damage, refund energy, and then either all in or go back to safely farming with q's. You can't go in and harass him after he uses it because if he uses it correctly, you get chunked HARD, and your liable to get "outplayed" by him switching to his shadow, procing his passive, then igniting you. Unless you pick a SUPER long range mage. Even if he just uses it to poke you, he can do it from ~1600 range. For reference that's ~ a Caitlyn ult + an Ekko dashes worth of distance.
His laning phase is safe because he never actually needs to go in or get close until he wants to. Unlike talon who has mana+long CD's+ short range+ and basically HAS to 100-0 his target or he'll just jump in and die instantly.
DorkunedAuras2 votesif you get hit by a shadowed zed Q at max range, you deserve it.
CowboyNinja3 votesYou can. The issue is even if you outplay him and get a kill then he just sits at tower and farms with his long range Q or even shadow and jumps on you when his jungle comes.
So you're left with either losing Lane or a generic farm lane. Never a chance to abuse a lead.
Defended2 votesZed doesnt need his W to kill you.. Have you ever been autod once by zed by any chance?..
InsanitysTheName3 votesWhy would you walk in melee range of a zed ever.
Defended4 votesWhy would you walk in melee range of a zed ever.
Because this whole thread is why dont people trade back. Thats why you cant trade back because his shuriken and autos do way too much damage.
InsanitysTheName4 votesYou can definitely trade back with zed while remaining out of melee range. Between spells and autoing him only when he goes for cs, you can trade efficiently.
Jasiwel2 votesI just pick Kayle into him and laugh because they first-picked Zed.
Zacster2 votesFinally someone who understands
Karma Deified2 votesYou see, it's not that they don't do anything against Zed. It's that they like when champs are easy to play against.
thumbnail92 votesCause they don't realize how playing passive hurts him on normal mages. They also don't get how aggressive picks can easily out lane him.
Bisaknosp2 votes[{quoted}](name=Lao Fu the Tiger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kIJl8Lke,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-05-07T14:52:25.131+0000)
where Zed is nothing but a melee Q bot after using his shadow?
yea he stands back and can still farm/harass effectively best part is he can do it the whole time while most other midlaners dont have that luxury
Lugg1 votesWell for one, early game he doesn't even really need his shadow that often. He just Q's to farm since he doesn't have to worry about mana. Second, pretty much every item now has CDR, so the CD is never 22 seconds anyway. And by the time it would get important, he has a rank or two in it anyway.
It's the classic thing Riot does with it's "golden boy" champions, they "nerf" an ability on the champ and then either buff another of their abilities, improve their itemization, or buff their mastery to compensate. So the Riot favorite champions are never really nerfed at all.
Julanus2 votesLet's assume Zed builds 40% Cooldown Reduction.
22 seconds > 13.2 seconds
Let's also say he grabs the 5% Cooldown Reduction mastery instead of the flat penetration for some reason.
22 seconds > 12.1 seconds
That's still a big window for people to toss in a few abilities and auto-attacks while Zed no form of escape.
Lugg1 votesYou are forgetting that is only the rank 1 CD. At max rank it's only 8 seconds with max CDR. That's a fairly small window by itself but then you have to factor in that if you try to all in him while it's on CD, he can still ult you.
Julanus1 votesThat's why you don't all-in him, that's his job, and unless you're also an assassin or a burst mage, he's likely to do it faster than you can.
Turns out, one of Zed's biggest weaknesses is how he's also extremely squishy, and that makes him pretty vulnerable to poke harassment. Another big weakness is he has to play safely until "the right moment" appears, one of the same weaknesses a lot of burst mages and other assassins have.
It also turns out many assassins and burst mages are actually really weak to taking constant poke damage.
Also, if Zed decides he wants to ult you, turn around. As in, he literally reappears directly behind your champion, so if you have some sort of stun/root/knockback/slow/anything to prevent him from moving or dealing damage to you, use it directly behind your champion the moment he appears. Especially if he decides to turret dive you. That's a really easy way to kill him with little effort.
Zed is definitely not invincible, his playstyle is "stay safe, poke, and wait for a moment to ult>unleash combo". As long as you play safely, and deny him the potential of dealing any meaningful ult damage (it's not the ult so much as all the other damage he deals while the ult is activating), he's not gonna be able to do much of anything to you.
Also, does Zed ever max his W first, or even second? While it would give him a shorter cooldown, it would also limit the potential damage he's able to do in a combo.
