"Diversity."
EDIT: To clarify, I'm only referring to jungle diversity. I honestly feel like this season we have seen a ton of diversity with regards to picks on other lanes (even Draven a few times). Even though the jungle is rough right now, I do think it is coming closer to what it should be. The direction is right, though I don't feel it's perfect yet. However, hearing one of the casters say this quote made me chuckle.
Kowe The Ewok138 votes"So how about we nerf J4 and Le...." "Nononononono, nerf Smite." "But the other junglers?" "Who cares"
"Boss, the Smite nerfs didn't help maybe we really should nerf J4 and Le......" "Nonononon Make jungle items more expensive" "But the othe..." "I SAID MAKE THEM MORE EXPENSIVE!" "Aye, chief."
"Uhm, Boss? J4 and Lee are still dominating the meta.." "How can this be? We've done such a good job patching the jungle!" "Maybe we should simply nerf J4 and L.." "Nonononon, I got it! We simply nerf the jungle items AGAIN!" "But, Sir we've already tried tha..." "YOU HEARD WHAT I SAID!" "Aye, chief."
"Boss, I'm sorry to annoy you again - but Lee and j4 are STILL dominating the meta." "Don't annoy me with such oddments. Buff the jungle creeps. Pronto!" "B....b...but Chief - we've already made viable jungling near impossible for 3/4 of S4s champion roster!" "Does Lee still work?" "Yes, but him dominating the meta is why we initiallly.." "I don't get your problem! Jungling is obviously working! Stop complaining already!" "Aye chief..."
Undeadmerlin25 votesUpvoted for accuracy
shadecrapper2 votes
Or the jungler that gets talked about a lot but never played 
I want to see them more.
Silven9 votesStorytime with Kowe. I fucking love it.
Kowe The Ewok4 votes+1 made my day :D
Axests2 votesLee is dominating the meta? I'm sorry i can't hear you over the sound of me punching your face in with vi
Chaotic Reks5 votesand she can't here you cause she has a huge foot in her face
coppinslinger20 votesThere's been as much diversity in competitive play as there has ever been. Elise, Lee, Kha'zix, Evelyn all rotated around last season.
Now it's Lee, Jarvan, Vi. Wow, it's like this is something different from last season. Nothing has changed with diversity in competitive play.
But in all honesty, Lee is probably the weakest of the Trio right now. Vi and J4 outclass Lee pretty harshly I think. Lee is shinning less than he ever has.
EDIT: Rek'sai got some play, but I'm pretty sure that is over now that she suffered repeated nerfs.
EDIT: Somebody else put together a spread sheet of pick/ban/win-rates of champs in the LCS. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MT7DoVUpRTAMiw0GbDXxIOLzshGM3wnADgU_wqgZ9V8/edit#gid=2106395441
J4 - Picked or Banned in 56 games. 51.28% win-rate Rek'sai (pre-nerfs) - Pick or Ban in 38 games. 44.44% win-rate Vi - Pick or Ban in 12 games. 66.66% win-rate. Lee - Pick or Ban in 31 games. 42.11% win-rate.
The jungle is really dominated by these 4 champs (Probably soon to be 3 with the occasional Nunu/Elise) in competitive play, but Lee Sin looks like he is relatively overvalued. Out of the 4 highest pick/ban junglers he has the lowest win-rate. We might see a rise of Jungle Nidalee too. While I don't think Lee Sin is going anywhere, he is by far not the strongest pick at the moment.
Bears Dont Care2 votesThere's been as much diversity in competitive play as there has ever been. Elise, Lee, Kha'zix, Evelyn all rotated around last season.
Now it's Lee, Jarvan, Vi. Wow, it's like this is something different from last season. Nothing has changed with diversity in competitive play.
But in all honesty, Lee is probably the weakest of the Trio right now. Vi and J4 outclass Lee pretty harshly I think. Lee is shinning less than he ever has.
EDIT: Rek'sai got some play, but I'm pretty sure that is over now that she suffered repeated nerfs.
Lee sin shines the brightest just look at his kit and numbers ffs
coppinslinger2 votesHis Kit and Numbers are good, and his potential is arguably the highest. However, it requires a lot of work in regards to positioning and ability combo's to line up those godly multi-man kicks and to get Q's on the right targets.
But J4 and Vi give an arguably more consistent impact. Their very linear kits (literally just push buttons in direction of enemy team) combined with their extremely strong neutral monster and tower control makes them more valuable assets in the majority of games. They are more consistent than Lee Sin right now, and that is something that pro's value above all else.
Bears Dont Care2 votesHis Kit and Numbers are good, and his potential is arguably the highest. However, it requires a lot of work in regards to positioning and ability combo's to line up those godly multi-man kicks and to get Q's on the right targets.
No it really doesn't, if we are looking at a champion we assume high level play, in which case, the required technical skill is irrelevant since, we have seen such gameplay regarding the champ anyway.
Lee Sin overcentralizes the game to the point that no one else is viable. There are champs that can compete with jarvan and Vi, but those two are also one of the few capable of competing with Lee Sin which is more important.
Vi herself has crippling weaknesses in that she is entirely single target, and her ult can be completely busted through several different methods.
ChrisB51 votesWhat nerfs did Riot push to 
? I must've missed the changelogs. Even now she feels pretty strong (just played against her earlier today).
Bears Dont Care9 votesWhat nerfs did Riot push to
Base damage nerf to her entire kit. Ad/ap rati nerf n her q Rekaai was picked for her damage and global pressure, they weakened the former and the latter is situational so she isnt a good.pick. compared to lee sin
ChrisB51 votesAny idea what update this was a part of? I only see posts about it being pushed to PBE, nothing official, but I know sometimes Google searches miss items, or is this what you're referring to? If you're referring to the PBE changes, then I hope they push these nerfs sooner than later to public servers! She's just way too strong and mobile and tanky and everything lol. I just hope it won't hit her too hard (not like Riot has a habit of doing this).
Bears Dont Care2 votesAny idea what update this was a part of? I only see posts about it being pushed to PBE, nothing official, but I know sometimes Google searches miss items, or is this what you're referring to? If you're referring to the PBE changes, then I hope they push these nerfs sooner than later to public servers! She's just way too strong and mobile and tanky and everything lol. I just hope it won't hit her too hard (not like Riot has a habit of doing this).
Its in the official.patch notes Dude she has less.mobility and.twnkiness than lee.sin.amd.less burst.
Ugh forget itmm.
ChrisB53 votesMy bad, just found out it was 5.2. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-52-notes
Comparing her to the most complained about champion makes no sense, esp with Rek'sai's higher cc and burst. I don't really see how Lee Sin is more mobile when Rek'sai can tunnel in the same sense of Lee Sin's kicks (without needing a ward) as well as having a global port. She also has fair cc, very tanky, and fair damage. Now I'm not saying she's OP (never did), just that she feels pretty strong for her intended role, and roles she's not really supposed to play. At least she has her counters too.
Not sure why you're getting so worked up man :P http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-52-notes
She made the top banned list with Ahri, Zed, and J4 (and Azir who for whatever reason has the top ban rate). Personally I just feel her early game is a bit stronger than it should be, but mid to late game she finds a great balance. Maybe the nerfs fixed this, maybe I had a bad game... or who knows, maybe I'm biased :P
BlackRaven6 votesatleast now these lee sin op qqing idiots get to see how balanced he really is.
Abyssphere62 votes[{quoted}](name=Maximum Lee Sin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=26Lgg0Gp,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-02-09T00:54:42.230+0000)
atleast now these lee sin op qqing idiots get to see how balanced he really is.
"Lee Sin is one of only two viable options" = "balanced". OK.
BlackRaven3 votes"Lee Sin is one of only two viable options" = "balanced". OK.
yes because everyone besides him vi and j4 are shit. that doesnt mean hes op. what kind of drugs do you guys use? i need to speak to god about this. its impossible to get through to you idiots.
Shadow Gilgamesh25 votesJudging by your name, it seems more likely that you're the one impossible to get through to. Jungling diversity is shit because of a combination of a lot of champs being shit, and most of everyone that's left gets thrown in the dumpster because Lee, J4 and Vi are significantly stronger than the rest of the viable junglers, not one problem or the other.
Kyrtian5 votesdont feed the troll, guys. Obvious shitposter is obvious
Rock Rockburgh11 votesI... yes, yes it does. I'm going to assume you're trolling, but for the sake of people who might be genuinely confused:
If almost every option is at X power, then X is balanced. Some things will be slightly above, some slightly less. However, anything with a significant advantage over X is too strong. Whether you move other things up to increase X or move down the things that are far above it makes no difference; you're moving towards better balance either way.
But it is never balanced to have less than 25% of the options be worthwhile.
Pinker 106 votesAlmost everything is at X power, that much is true. But when X power is unviable in the role, it is NOT balanced. A large number of junglers that were subpar last season can't jungle at all anymore, and of those few that are left, three so happen to have more utility all game that they are better.
The jungle changes fucked tank junglers as a whole, and most are entirely useless. Of the bruiser junglers, kha got nerfed, and can't take the new jungle's damage as well as elise who also got hit and doesn't have anywhere near the sustain necessary.
J4 Vi and Lee have tank/sustain built in, but can also gank pre 6, which together with nerfs to the machete is the reason they're currently better than WW, who, let's face it, actually was broken at the start of the preseason with that true damage.
The jungle being overtuned and a constant cycle of nerf anything that can do anything rather than fix things that CAN'T do anything is the reason it's not balanced.
Lee J4 and Vi should be the standard, not the exception.
It's time for a Buff Cycle.
Sinlaire2 votes[{quoted}](name=Pinker 10,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=26Lgg0Gp,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-02-09T03:02:03.995+0000)
Almost everything is at X power, that much is true. But when X power is unviable in the role, it is NOT balanced. A large number of junglers that were subpar last season can't jungle at all anymore, and of those few that are left, three so happen to have more utility all game that they are better.
The jungle changes fucked tank junglers as a whole, and most are entirely useless. Of the bruiser junglers, kha got nerfed, and can't take the new jungle's damage as well as elise who also got hit and doesn't have anywhere near the sustain necessary.
J4 Vi and Lee have tank/sustain built in, but can also gank pre 6, which together with nerfs to the machete is the reason they're currently better than WW, who, let's face it, actually was broken at the start of the preseason with that true damage.
The jungle being overtuned and a constant cycle of nerf anything that can do anything rather than fix things that CAN'T do anything is the reason it's not balanced.
Lee J4 and Vi should be the standard, not the exception.
It's time for a Buff Cycle.
I've been saying we need a buff cycle for days on several threads. I simply dont understand how most of these threads are calling J4, Lee, and Vi OP compared to the rest of the champs because they're the only ones viable, and then saying that they need to be nerfed.
I mean, if we nerf the greatest of the viable down to everyone else's standards, whom we just clarified are sub-par for the new jungle and total crap in other cases, then that means we've jsut called for the total annihilation of nearly ALL viable champs.
which at that point it wont be GG Rito, but GG summoner.
it's time for a buff cycle to bring everyone closer to the holy trinity, not time to topple it.
Yulen Xoshxius1 votesI agree with the idea of getting everyone to the same level by buffing them up, but to nerf 3 instead of buffing over 100+ champs is a lot more efficient and cost effective I would imagine.
Pinker 101 votesIt's neither efficient or cost effective when the only reason they're "OP" is because jungle monsters rape all the other junglers x.x Balancing to that level does not work.
Yulen Xoshxius1 votesWouldn't nerfing the monsters to NOT eat all the other junglers be a good idea too?
LUS Montplaisir5 votesImperfect balance; these champions all have operable counterplay. Its up to the Challenger scene, and to a lesser extent, the players in general, to find and test counter picks to these champions. Jarvan has been lightly nerfed since season 2. He's always been good, but he's never been op. A lot of the same can be said. They both saw very light competitive play in Season 4, and they operate a lot of the same way Caitlyn does in the bot lane; reliable, comfortable champions that have good teamfight ptotential. The answer here isn't nerfs to the two problem champions (since the only reason they're currently strong is because of changes to the map and nerfs to other champions), the answer is buffs to the champions that are ailing and have the room in their power budgets. Or, you know, we could always try and play their counterpicks or find comps that focus on screwing over the jungler. Options are available.
Daedalus8712 votes"everyone besides him (Lee Sin) vi and j4 are shit. that doesn't mean hes op."
It kind of does.
Sinlaire3 votes"everyone besides him (Lee Sin) vi and j4 are shit. that doesn't mean hes op."
It kind of does.
actually that would be a logical fallacy. by saying everyone other than those 3 are shit it is NOT implying that they are OP. It means that they're the only ones VIABLE and that everything under is sub-par.
if you want something strong to play other than the 3, don't bring them down, bring everyone else up. This is made clear by that statement "everyone else is shit." if you bring down those 3 then what do you have?
oh yeah. a whopping 0 OP and 100% total shit.
Daedalus8713 votesHow is it a logical fallacy?
Why aren't Naut, Sej, and Amumu being played? Is it because of the laners? Or is it because Lee Sin and friends keep them out? If there was no Lee Sin and friends would they be more popular? Probably.
As far as bringing everyone up? Only 3 champs are, power wise, out of wack. So should the other 15~ champions be fucked with, or the 3 that are too strong?
I also tremble to think of what a Hecarim that is on Lee Sin's and Vi's current power level would look like.
Sinlaire3 votesHow is it a logical fallacy?
Why aren't Naut, Sej, and Amumu being played? Is it because of the laners? Or is it because Lee Sin and friends keep them out? If there was no Lee Sin and friends would they be more popular? Probably.
As far as bringing everyone up? Only 3 champs are, power wise, out of wack. So should the other 15~ champions be fucked with, or the 3 that are too strong?
I also tremble to think of what a Hecarim that is on Lee Sin's and Vi's current power level would look like.
Naut, Sej, And amumu dont get played for the same reason Lee, J4, and Vi get played.
because the first 3 SET UP kills while the final 3 SECURE kills. making a gank possible is entirely different from making a gank likely, because Naut, Sej, and Amumu lack the burst/ CC to reliably take down an opponant before they make it back to towers during laning phase.
Vi and Lee are assassins so the burst is built into their kit. J4 has stronger CC and buffs Ally armor and AS which increases their support during the gank as well.
all Naut, Sej, and Amumu can do is come in, blow all their CC, and hope they drop down enough damage to 0 the enemy before they're recalling under the tower.
honestly all it would take to make them viable junglers is to increase their damages and wave clear just a little bit. it pushes them through the jungle
The Trinity dominate because they do all 4 better. not because they're OP, but because everyone else is UP and needs a tune up. IF you bumped the 4 aspects here on those 3 they would shine much brighter. Amumu, Naut, and Sejuani has worlds better team fight utility than Vi and strongly contest J4 and edge out Lee.
but that's probably exactly why they arent as strong as they should be. because their team fight utility is so much higher than Lee and Vi's. too strong and they're too tanky with too much CC and just straight snowballed, 1v5 diving, team wreckers.
You ever see a Fed Sejuani, Ult+Bristle dash into a team and start swinging her Flail of the Northern WInds with it's %hp damage? teams just melt.
Daedalus8712 votesLet me put it this way, what do Vi, J4, and Lee lack as junglers?
Clear? No. Ganking? No. Damage? No. Mobility? No. Initiation? No. Tankiness? No. CC? No.
Come to think of it, what do they lack as champions?
Sinlaire1 votesLet me put it this way, what do Vi, J4, and Lee lack as junglers?
Clear? No. Ganking? No. Damage? No. Mobility? No. Initiation? No. Tankiness? No. CC? No.
Come to think of it, what do they lack as champions?
that is a perfectly sensible argument. granted i could easily point out those that are better at many of those aspects and some at multiples of those at the same time. While your issue is that they're good at all of those, my issue is that everyone else is bad at some or many of those.
Which is almost the same argument but not quite at the same time. Because im sure i could ask you which champions struggle or outright fail in the jungle at the moment and you could name a few if not many. but then if i told you that Lee, J4, and Vi were nerfed down to their level could you then say that the jungle has been improved or balanced?
arguably, yes. i'll admit that by nerfing down oppressive outliers you've brought everyone closer to the "average". but the "average" is mediocre if not garbage. Nerfing the trinity would only reduce viable junglers, make no significant gains towards diversity, and make widespread mediocrity develop into a full blown plague in my opinion.
your stance is not wrong. your implications as to how they should be treated in regards to the jungle however is the only thing i take issue with. Love tap the strong maybe, but the biggest thing should be to make more champs sound like the trinity, not make the trinity sound like them. Just without quite the oppression.
+1 to anyone who links Monty Python after reading this.
Daedalus8711 votesAgain, I ask you what does the Jungle Trinity lack? Almost every other champion lacks something.
Amumu: Dueling power, clear, and blue buff reliant Yi: CC, tankiness Nautalis: Damage, clear Cho'gath: Reliable CC, Initiation
Meanwhile, the Trinity lack a clear weakness. The best that you can really come up for them is "X does y better" while ignoring the fact that "X is terrible at z". And it's not that other junglers aren't viable, its just why play them when you could play Lee Sin, Vi and J4?
J4 could probably use a slight numbers nerf, while Vi and Lee Sin probably need a rework.
Sinlaire1 votesI agree on the numbers nerf on J4 and the rework on Lee Sin, but you lost me on the Vi rework.
she is literally 2 passives and Q,W,and R. none of which rely on any of the others. no steroid other than W passive. two short knockups and straight raw damage. any of her gap closers used take away from any of her escape chances. She ulted into your team? She can Q out but if she didnt kill you, chances are good she used that one on you too and now has to rely on her team to fish her out of the shit storm that is your team collapsing on her or she finds a wall to flash over as she loops back to saftey.
J4 has armor shred, armor steroid, AS steroid, linear dash and knockup THAT ISNT STOPPED BY ENEMY CHAMPIONS like Vi's is, and he can trap an entire team in his wall for 3 full seconds while VI's ult... steamrolls anyone between herself and her target for 75% damage and creates a 1.25 second knockup.
honestly. can someone link me a picture of genie from Aladdin waving his tiny little flag? J4 and Lee are overtuned, but atleast that means Riot has 10k pieces of their kit they can rework or nerf to make them more tolerable. you know what they can nerf on Vi? damage. take it from her numbers, or take it from her passive. that's all they can do because it's all she has. She's only oppressive because she's good at what she does when played well. The others are oppressive even when played by newbs.
Pinker 101 votesNaut Sej and Amumu aren't being played because no-one likes having to back before a full clear Twice
Not exactly sure how you consider that better balance than Lee, Vi, and J4
Unless you simply prefer junglers being utterly useless for the first half of the game and unable to farm and gank at the same time
Sinlaire2 votes[{quoted}](name=Pinker 10,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=26Lgg0Gp,comment-id=0000000000000003000000000004,timestamp=2015-02-09T18:29:46.023+0000)
Naut Sej and Amumu aren't being played because no-one likes having to back before a full clear Twice
Not exactly sure how you consider that better balance than Lee, Vi, and J4
Unless you simply prefer junglers being utterly useless for the first half of the game and unable to farm and gank at the same time
i'm not calling it better balance. in fact i explicitly stated that it's WORSE balance and that they need to be brought up, with the only thing stopping their being buffed is the potential for them to be overly tanky team rolling monsters.
I honestly think they need to be buffed, but i can understand why RIot hasn't yet because i've seen snowballed Amumu's and Sejuani's. They ult in and the team follows, followed by an ace and they're gunning for your nexus. They have to find a way to meaningfully tweak these guys without overturning them.
Pinker 101 votesWut You realize that was a reply to Daedalus right? Helps if you use discussion view, they're color coded
Sinlaire1 votesthanks for the tip. been on the boards off and on for over two weeks but only found the discussion view button after you wrote this and i actually hunted it down. :(
Nucleophilic atk24 votesPlease don't say Lee Sin is balanced while calling other people idiots. The two just really contradict each other.
Auz the Ripper3 votesNah, they don't contradict each other
Saying the two together is simply obscenely and exorbitantly hypocritical
Shouju5 votesI feel like 50% of the problem is the fact that pros aren't willing to try new things all that much. Champions that they've practiced and seen success on will always be strong, because they won't take the time to make other things strong unless they're overbearing. The reason there's such a limited champion pool for roles in the LCS is because people want to win, and if something is either giving results or lacks counterplay and hasn't been nerfed yet they're going to play it for the win.
The other 50% is alternatives needing buffs, not J4 and Lee needing nerfs. Nerfing things into the ground isn't working, and hasn't been working in many cases. You nerf things that are abusable, you buff things that aren't quite off the ground. A rework isn't required for every champion that doesn't see a lot of play, a rework is needed for champions that are actually toxic in gameplay. The challenger players that have made it to LCS recently are breaking out a few new and cool picks, and why? Because the champions are fine! They just learned to use them.
brettly4204 votescompetitive play sucks now.. it really is the same handful of champions on repeat and they just play so safe that 80% games are literally 30 minutes of farming safely until a couple of baron fights and end.
like the cloud 9 game?? 6 to 4 in kills? cant bring myself to watch league if there are zero team fights
Sailor Mint3 votesThe Morgana pick traditionally makes Vi and a lot of ganking junglers useless.
junglerboy162 votesVi ult>Dark binding.
Nuclear Corvid13 votesBlack Shield > Vi Ult
Celeste Benal2 votesVi ult>Dark binding.
Bull-puppy. Dark Binding shits all over Vi ult. Vi ults no one when she is rooted.
blueberrypancake3 votesTSM actually picked Vi, which forced Rush to play Lee Sin
TIP did consider Kha'zix
Arveanor7 votesTIP hovered kha'zix
Let's not get excited.
