Can we be more civil?

Lao Fu the Tiger·Feb 3, 2015·217 votes·21,862 views

Look.

I'm one of you guys.

I'm with you.

I think Zed is too strong.

I think Ahri's nerfs on PBE were too harsh.

I didn't like the idea of Kassadin having another nerf.

And every single one of you has full right to voice your opinion over these matters. But can we be a little more civil about it? Can we, instead of making threads with a ton of pictures flipping off Riot's hard-working employees, have threads that can be more discussion based than rage/hate based? Can we have more threads (I've seen a few already) that constructively criticize the problems and offer suggestions rather than pointing fingers at Riot?

All I'm asking is for these points of conversation to be less like a witch hunt and more like a discussion in which everybody is involved and can voice their opinion. Is that too much to ask?

137 Comments

KarlyrFeb 3, 201552 votes

I got flamed for a thread that looked like this. Being told a buttlicker. So yeah... I know that feel. Sometimes the community feels like a bunch of 14 years old :(

thePandevFeb 4, 201554 votes

{quoted}

I got flamed for a thread that looked like this. Being told a buttlicker. So yeah... I know that feel. Sometimes the community feels like a bunch of 14 years old :(

I swear 2 years ago it was 12 year olds

qetzelFeb 4, 201515 votes

IMPROVEMENTS!

RogueWillFeb 4, 20156 votes

The community may been a bunch of 14 years old. Try laying around 4pm-5pm worst experience ever.

46104328_DELFeb 4, 20156 votes

{quoted}

I got flamed for a thread that looked like this. Being told a buttlicker. So yeah... I know that feel. Sometimes the community feels like a bunch of 14 years old :(

It IS a bunch of 14 year old. I just got flamed in game for a church joke ("After my last two games (full of autolockers and intentional feeders) I feel like I need to go to church and confess or something.") Which, fine, if they got offended. I'da apologized. but what'd I get back? "chuch is for pussies!"

RiotRiot SweetFeb 4, 201544 votes

A good way to attract conversation from our teams and from the community is to make discussions that have points and counter-points. Especially when it comes to difficult topics such as balance, story, and art. Gameplay and Balance as a Board can open up the door more easily to conversation with this ideology. It's more difficult than it sounds but it provides the best kinds of discussions.

For example let's take Ahri. PBE buffs or nerfs? Let's set the stage for a second with a hypothetical point, counterpoint:

#Point: Ahri's current PBE changes make her feel less in-line with her previous play style. She feels less meaningful and more point-and-click [provide supporting data and samples here]

#Counter-point: That being said, her changes power spike her in a way that does compensate for the lack of burst lost from her charm. The power was shifted and not lost. [provide supporting data and samples here]

The latter are kinds of discussions that our Gameplay and Balance guys would likely really enjoy having. It'll also open the floor up to both sides of the table.

Chromatic EagleFeb 4, 20152 votes

What do you consider to be good supporting data and samples? Win rates are controversial since they're both used and not used when discussing balance.

HellioningFeb 4, 201520 votes

I try that. Those posts tend not to get upvoted and viewed at all; my latest attempt did not receive a single comment. Meanwhile, the 'OMG RITO SUCKS FIRE EVERYBODY' threads get tons of upvotes. It's easy to say 'be the change you want to see in life!' but a single person tends not to cause much of an impact, especially online.

It especially doesn't help when most of my complaints tend to be things that aren't statistical; for example, most of my least favorite champions have relatively average win rates, but I still hate seeing them due to problems I think lie within their kit. I can't statistically say 'this percentage of people hate playing against this champion!' because there aren't statistics for that; or at least there aren't any that I can find.

RiotRiot SweetFeb 4, 201519 votes

{quoted}

I try that. Those posts tend not to get upvoted and viewed at all; my latest attempt did not receive a single comment. Meanwhile, the 'OMG RITO SUCKS FIRE EVERYBODY' threads get tons of upvotes. It's easy to say 'be the change you want to see in life!' but a single person tends not to cause much of an impact, especially online.

It especially doesn't help when most of my complaints tend to be things that aren't statistical; for example, most of my least favorite champions have relatively average win rates, but I still hate seeing them due to problems I think lie within their kit. I can't statistically say 'this percentage of people hate playing against this champion!' because there aren't statistics for that; or at least there aren't any that I can find.

Data is good, stats are good. They aren't the end of the line however.

If a champion feels 'off' it could be the play style. Cass is a good example of a community that isn't happy with her current existence because she doesn't fulfill the idea of what the character means to them. That's an acceptable place to come from. It's obviously more difficult to address those concerns but that doesn't mean it's any less valid.

StarlighteFeb 4, 201510 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sweet,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gyUaWfuf,comment-id=000c00010000,timestamp=2015-02-04T08:23:24.565+0000)

Data is good, stats are good. They aren't the end of the line however.

If a champion feels 'off' it could be the play style. Cass is a good example of a community that isn't happy with her current existence because she doesn't fulfill the idea of what the character means to them. That's an acceptable place to come from. It's obviously more difficult to address those concerns but that doesn't mean it's any less valid.

Somebody forgot to tell Stashu about that fact. Mind swinging by his office and letting him know, because as I'm sure you and everyone else realizes, his absence is duly noted by those dedicated Cass mains over in the Gameplay and Balance forum... I doubt a day goes by without them making another knife mark on the wall tallying another day of silence

And though most of what I made note of above is in hyperbole, Sweet you may be able to recognize GC's intent and why he was trying to be so tactful (and then reiterate it) and you may be able to help vocalize the difficulties Stashu is faced with, but sometimes its best to just hunt down the right person in the office and try and convince them to come to the forums and explain it for themselves ya know?

RiotRiot SweetFeb 4, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Somebody forgot to tell Stashu about that fact. Mind swinging by his office and letting him know, because as I'm sure you and everyone else realizes, his absence is duly noted by those dedicated Cass mains over in the Gameplay and Balance forum... I doubt a day goes by without them making another knife mark on the wall tallying another day of silence

And though most of what I made note of above is in hyperbole, Sweet you may be able to recognize GC's intent and why he was trying to be so tactful (and then reiterate it) and you may be able to help vocalize the difficulties Stashu is faced with, but sometimes its best to just hunt down the right person in the office and try and convince them to come to the forums and explain it for themselves ya know?

As always Starlighte you jump in with some solid remarks. I won't make promises I can't keep but I'll cast my line into the waters and see what bites. :)

StarlighteFeb 4, 201513 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sweet,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gyUaWfuf,comment-id=000c0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-04T08:43:12.075+0000)

As always Starlighte you jump in with some solid remarks. I won't make promises I can't keep but I'll cast my line into the waters and see what bites. :)

Greeting and salutations at this fine hour! I never hold Rioters to promises (except Morello on that damn Lux skin... If me or RavenHusky ever met him irl ohhhhh boy.... the fandom....) but I appreciate your attempt nonetheless.

Out of curiosity, and I know its a topic that Riot is pretty hell-bent against but, in your opinion why aren't there individuals at Riot or specifically a member or two of each department whose job entails: for X hours sit down with your team and the community and try and get out what information the team needs, and give the team what information they need.

I realize that the biggest argument against is Riot doesn't want to force employees to interact with us. They want employees to feel empowered to do so without getting the axe because they promised/said something they shouldnt've. But, on the flip side, the excuse/explanation coming out of every department (Balance, ChampUp, Narrative, etc.) on why they don't communicate more is because balancing work/forums is difficult.

It would make sense then that if there was somebody who had some dedicated time to this on a weekly basis that the argument of balancing problems (the time ones, not gameplay) would be much dissolved.

So yeah, thoughts Sweet? (Because this is totally relevant to the discussion.... I promise... Scout's honor!)

AMYS GRAVEFeb 4, 20152 votes

I promise... Scout's honor!

"Never underestimate the power of the Scout's code." Teemo

Grand ElevenFeb 4, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sweet,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gyUaWfuf,comment-id=000c00010000,timestamp=2015-02-04T08:23:24.565+0000)

Data is good, stats are good. They aren't the end of the line however.

If a champion feels 'off' it could be the play style. Cass is a good example of a community that isn't happy with her current existence because she doesn't fulfill the idea of what the character means to them. That's an acceptable place to come from. It's obviously more difficult to address those concerns but that doesn't mean it's any less valid.

I'm upvoting this solely for the reason that you succinctly summarized a big concern from the cass player-base in a way many of us feared Riot doesn't grasp.

Thank you.

GigglingAngelFeb 4, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sweet,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gyUaWfuf,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2015-02-04T05:39:34.011+0000)

A good way to attract conversation from our teams and from the community is to make discussions that have points and counter-points. Especially when it comes to difficult topics such as balance, story, and art. Gameplay and Balance as a Board can open up the door more easily to conversation with this ideology. It's more difficult than it sounds but it provides the best kinds of discussions.

For example let's take Ahri. PBE buffs or nerfs? Let's set the stage for a second with a hypothetical point, counterpoint:

#Point: Ahri's current PBE changes make her feel less in-line with her previous play style. She feels less meaningful and more point-and-click [provide supporting data and samples here]

#Counter-point: That being said, her changes power spike her in a way that does compensate for the lack of burst lost from her charm. The power was shifted and not lost. [provide supporting data and samples here]

The latter are kinds of discussions that our Gameplay and Balance guys would likely really enjoy having. It'll also open the floor up to both sides of the table.

So if I make a thread with points, counterpoints, and data about how Heimer's turret ai is extremely flawed now, would I attract the attention of the of your team? I can (and would) do that if it would actually mean something, because I'm extremely tired of my turrets suddenly turning stupid and not hitting the enemies I target them to hit.

RiotRiot SweetFeb 4, 20157 votes

{quoted}

So if I make a thread with points, counterpoints, and data about how Heimer's turret ai is extremely flawed now, would I attract the attention of the of your team? I can (and would) do that if it would actually mean something, because I'm extremely tired of my turrets suddenly turning stupid and not hitting the enemies I target them to hit.

Welcome it. Post a reply with your thread to me here if you make it.

GigglingAngelFeb 4, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sweet,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gyUaWfuf,comment-id=000c00030000,timestamp=2015-02-04T08:19:20.350+0000)

Welcome it. Post a reply with your thread to me here if you make it.

Awesome! I had it done even before reading your comment. lol http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/M7647yY5-riot-balancing-heimerdinger

KeevalroyFeb 4, 201512 votes

When talking about civility, there's a time and a place for it. That time and place was when our voices were being heard and considered - now they're apparently heard, but in terms of balance and gameplay, what happens? Changes are sent to the PBE, we're silently told our feedback doesn't matter, and they go out to live where we're silently told to deal with it.

We can be civil if you're (not directed at you, Sweet) willing to listen to what we have to say and consider some of the feedback we make. All it takes is talking to us on Boards. We want designer to player cooperation and discussion; not Phreak rushing to defend poorly-received decisions and telling us we're wrong - bringing up contradicting points and arguments.

We may be negative, but it's because we're frustrated and tired of being voiceless in a supposedly player-focused game. You're a part of the community to whether you guys want to believe it or not. The Rioter title doesn't mean you automatically know better than the rest of us, and yes it does come off this way.

I made a rant post a few days ago about the silence and the balance team's favoritism because after reading the 5.2 changes and seeing nothing modified when it came to the live servers despite feedback against them, it officially put me over the edge of tolerance. It had over 300 upvotes, meaning there is some form of agreement within the community that enough is enough. It even attracted the attention of the elusive Ghostcrawler, and while the presence of a Red was unexpected and welcomed, he talked like a politician and didn't really do much in terms of addressing major issues presented by us.

That isn't Riot to Community interaction, most of it was dismissing every constructive post made and every argument made against the blind hypocrisy of your design and balance teams. We CAN have civil discussions, but both sides have to speak for a conversation to happen.

RiotRiot SweetFeb 4, 201511 votes

{quoted}

When talking about civility, there's a time and a place for it. That time and place was when our voices were being heard and considered - now they're apparently heard, but in terms of balance and gameplay, what happens? Changes are sent to the PBE, we're silently told our feedback doesn't matter, and they go out to live where we're silently told to deal with it.

We can be civil if you're (not directed at you, Sweet) willing to listen to what we have to say and consider some of the feedback we make. All it takes is talking to us on Boards. We want designer to player cooperation and discussion; not Phreak rushing to defend poorly-received decisions and telling us we're wrong - bringing up contradicting points and arguments.

We may be negative, but it's because we're frustrated and tired of being voiceless in a supposedly player-focused game. You're a part of the community to whether you guys want to believe it or not. The Rioter title doesn't mean you automatically know better than the rest of us, and yes it does come off this way.

I made a rant post a few days ago about the silence and the balance team's favoritism because after reading the 5.2 changes and seeing nothing modified when it came to the live servers despite feedback against them, it officially put me over the edge of tolerance. It had over 300 upvotes, meaning there is some form of agreement within the community that enough is enough. It even attracted the attention of the elusive Ghostcrawler, and while the presence of a Red was unexpected and welcomed, he talked like a politician and didn't really do much in terms of addressing major issues presented by us.

That isn't Riot to Community interaction, most of it was dismissing every constructive post made and every argument made against the blind hypocrisy of your design and balance teams. We CAN have civil discussions, but both sides have to speak for a conversation to happen.

I'll do my best to address a couple of the points here. Voting was brought up so let's talk about that first.

Everyone in this thread who supports the idea of structured discussion (and those lurking) have the power to upvote and downvote content. Take a trip into the New sorting option and help upvote these kinds of conversations to the front. Also downvote actively the ones that don't represent it. Sure I expect there to be angry threads still, joking and trolling. But if the latter suggestion is the kind of open conversation you're looking for let's help get it there.

We are apart of the community and I feel sincere sorrow knowing that any of you may be made to feel less than. I know Ghostcrawler mentioned it elsewhere but improving communication is a an important thing for us and a lot of teams are making a marked effort to increase visibility into their processes. This is being balanced against work and focusing on the tasks at hand but there is likely more than can be done.

There's more I want to say but late at the moment. Going to reply to a few others and I'll stop back by in the AM.

Thank you though btw. I read your other thread when you posted it about the 5.2 changes and I also appreciate this response as it was thoughtful and heartfelt.

Penguin EclipseFeb 4, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sweet,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gyUaWfuf,comment-id=000c00050000,timestamp=2015-02-04T08:05:56.234+0000)

I'll do my best to address a couple of the points here. Voting was brought up so let's talk about that first.

Everyone in this thread who supports the idea of structured discussion (and those lurking) have the power to upvote and downvote content. Take a trip into the New sorting option and help upvote these kinds of conversations to the front. Also downvote actively the ones that don't represent it. Sure I expect there to be angry threads still, joking and trolling. But if the latter suggestion is the kind of open conversation you're looking for let's help get it there.

We are apart of the community and I feel sincere sorrow knowing that any of you may be made to feel less than. I know Ghostcrawler mentioned it elsewhere but improving communication is a an important thing for us and a lot of teams are making a marked effort to increase visibility into their processes. This is being balanced against work and focusing on the tasks at hand but there is likely more than can be done.

There's more I want to say but late at the moment. Going to reply to a few others and I'll stop back by in the AM.

Thank you though btw. I read your other thread when you posted it about the 5.2 changes and I also appreciate this response as it was thoughtful and heartfelt.

Riot Sweet, YOU are part of the community. And thank you for that. But I am sorry to say that the vast majority of your coworkers are not. The silence from Riot is worse than it has ever been. And unfortunately the constructive threads seem to get even less replies than the angry ones.

Hyrum GraffFeb 5, 20153 votes

Hey Sweet, I'd like to pop in and build off of Penguin Eclipse's comment:

[{quoted}](name=Penguin Eclipse,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gyUaWfuf,comment-id=000c000500000001,timestamp=2015-02-04T15:54:56.263+0000)

Riot Sweet, YOU are part of the community. And thank you for that. But I am sorry to say that the vast majority of your coworkers are not. The silence from Riot is worse than it has ever been. And unfortunately the constructive threads seem to get even less replies than the angry ones.

I think he hits the nail on the head. You know how to listen to people and hear what they mean, repeat it back to them so they know you understand, and then reply to them in some substantive way, even if you disagree.

As a result, you're one of the most beloved Rioters on the forums -- and for good reason! And as a result of that, people treat you (and Katey, and Parrot) with the respect that you deserve, because you've earned it.

Frankly, I'm inclined to believe that Riot's PR training basically amounts to, "Don't make promises. Put disclaimers in about your personal opinions. Make sure your message is airtight. If you don't, the masses will tear you apart." I think this kind of 'training' is counterproductive, and just reinforces the current patterns of communication (short burst of activity, met with outrage, followed by long periods of silence). Instead, I think PR training should be focused on teaching Rioters the skills I outlined in my first paragraph: how to make people feel heard by interacting meaningfully with their content. Instead, I think the take-away message should be "We've got some history we need to work through, but if you can do XYZ, you can build an awesome, enriching relationship with this amazing community."

AkesgerothFeb 4, 20154 votes

Sometimes there isn't really a counter point. As an example, Morde needs straight up buffs. He's a low damage, low range, low mobility champion who's relatively squishy and has no CC. Either he should get buffed or he should be reworked.

RiotRiot SweetFeb 4, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Sometimes there isn't really a counter point. As an example, Morde needs straight up buffs. He's a low damage, low range, low mobility champion who's relatively squishy and has no CC. Either he should get buffed or he should be reworked.

If there is no obvious counterpoint, consider providing solutions. One of the tricks I was taught prior to getting into the industry was when you're reaching out to extremely busy people to get feedback (most often managers or subject matter experts who get hit with hundreds of emails or requests daily) providing solutions or suggestions that are thoughtful or provocative are a good starting point.

What would you do to Morde to improve him? How would you balance him in the current playstyle of the game without making him overwhelming?

AkesgerothFeb 4, 20156 votes

Well, that's the issue. The answer to that is multiple. If you were to ask me, I think the idea that he was "unfair" is wrong and he should simply be buffed back to his previous state. However, the devs have clearly stated that this goes against their design philosophy. So the options would be either a major rebalancing of his abilities or a total rework à la Sion. In the case of the former, I would double the maximum amount of shield he has, change the decay to be much slower and happen when "out of combat", like fury, I would give a strong buff to his W and would change his passive to also increase the damage he does based on the amount of shield he has. This would essentially turn him into a strong tank who forces opponents to target him or suffer the consequences as his shield builds up. In the case of a total rework, I haven't really tought about it, but I'd keep the shield mechanic and the health based aspect of his abilities (we want him to be a master of pain). I would like to keep the pushing aspect of Morde strong. Like, why not make it so when he kills a minion with a certain ability, they return as a "ghost minion" on his side which lasts about 30 seconds?

Either way, I think I just broached the issue here, as in why people are getting angry. You can see the different answers I gave but they all rely on knowing what the devs have in mind for the game, their "design philosophy". I think much of the frustration from the people posting in the gameplay and balance forums can be summarized as "We don't know what the ultimate goal is". There's been efforts to explain what is meant by "toxic" or "anti-fun" and the such, but there's rarely any "This is what we're aiming for" discussions. As an example, a statement which often returns nowadays is "How can the developers think Zed is okay in his current state?" What makes them think Zed is okay? What makes them think the other champions are also okay? If they're not okay, what are their plans to remedy that? Etc.

Basically, to give constructive and useful feedback, we need certain information. Information which many feel is being denied to us.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 4, 20157 votes

We need an idea of where the balance team is going before we can give reasonable and constructive feedback. I'll use the recent zed comments as an example. Don't just say Zed is a healthy assassin, tell us why you think he is. Once we know that we can begin to have a constructive conversation about Zed's balance and what is fair to consider reworking. It is a real problem that we don't know why you (Riot) think Zed is a healthy assassin. Does that mean that assassins should excel at everything and outclass every other role? i assume not but that's very much how that comment came off.

Note: Zed has a high pick rate (he is fun to play as) a high ban rate (he is not fun to play against). These show us that Zed's kit is overloaded. On the other hand his low win rate tells us that his kit is undertuned. I don't mean to say that zed is OP when he isn't, just using him as an example of failed discussion.

Personally i would like to see zed's shadow only be able to be gone to or not, instead of being able to shift back and forth as many times as zed pleases. POINT This would mean that when he all ins, he's all in. With that change Zed stops being infuriating to play against because he can no longer towerdive with impunity COUNTERPOINT but that is quite an intense nerf so you could buff something else in his kit to compensate his low overall win rate. Is that a fair change? I don't know because i don't know the balance teams priorities. If the balance team thinks its healthy for an assassin to be impossible to catch then that suggestion is not fair, and i should make another suggestion. But if i make that suggestion and get no response i have no idea if it was read and considered, read and dismissed because of the balance teams philosophy on how they need to balance Zed, or if it was even read at all. When we give suggestions like this we need to know if we are in the right ballpark with what is considered ok to touch or not, but we get nothing.

If the Gameplay and Balance guys would really enjoy having these types of discussions we would really enjoy having them but scrolling through all of last weeks threads i only see a few red comments that actually discuss gameplay and balance in any way. Meanwhile there are just as many non-constructive and overly defensive red posts where they complain about how unhelpful or non-constructive the boards can be. When we see those kinds of posts it's really disheartening because it shows how many reds look down on us when they do read our posts.

Props to GhostCrawler and Meddler for having a positive presence (three constructive posts each) on the gameplay and balance boards in the past week.

Its easy to be dismissive. It's hard to correct the problem. There is room for improvement from both sides of the discussions.

tl;dr

Unfortunately we (the non-riot community) lack context for these conversations because of riots relative silence and or generic statements. "Zed is a healthy assassin" is an infuriating thing to read when his balance and design is so obviously overloaded.

We (the players) can talk all day and give many suggestions, but the discussion has to be two way in order to be a constructive and meaningful discussion.

RiotRiot SweetFeb 4, 20159 votes

{quoted}

tl;dr

Unfortunately we (the non-riot community) lack context for these conversations because of riots relative silence and or generic statements. "Zed is a healthy assassin" is an infuriating thing to read when his balance and design is so obviously overloaded.

We (the players) can talk all day and give many suggestions, but the discussion has to be two way in order to be a constructive and meaningful discussion.

Think this last point is a good one. More open dialog and visibility into why decisions are made or at least some context on the changes would be helpful. Or if there are responses around them — providing a digest per-week of those discussions that's easy to find and catch-up on would likely also help this along.

Wînter FoxFeb 4, 201521 votes

I'm actually glad you made this thread. Just seeing "FUCK RIOT" at the top of the board today was a bit much to put it mildly.

Poldy ScarecrowFeb 4, 201518 votes

The amount of hate on the boards is alarming. Really wish we as a community could tone down the mockery, sarcasm and ranting etc for more good willed discussion/suggestions.

The Rioters are human.. If I'm not mistaken one of them recently admitted to suffering from depression and having therapy etc and I'm almost certain that there are many more. For the Rioters who read the boards the sheer amount of negativity here may be really upsetting and repetitive. I say this as a person suffering from Depression myself.

Things take time and not everything will be perfect or get fixed immediately. The most we can do is have faith and lend constructive criticism and helpful suggestions when we can. Good to see and positive thread like this.

OperationDEEZ1Feb 4, 20157 votes

Well it's not going to stop Riot from ignoring the community.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 4, 201519 votes

I think the fact that Rioters are willing to respond to direct hate threads (in an entirely professional manner no less) counteracts the idea of them ignoring the community.

PhrixscreothFeb 4, 20156 votes

Civility wins fights, both in game and on the boards. I'm refering to civility between teammates of course, you ask for a polite dance party in river and the other team will of course ambush and kill you.

And on the boards we're all on the same team.

Dr EasterFeb 4, 20156 votes

Tell that to the Dominion community. Always civil, always giving Riot nice tip, always offering to work even for free to keep the mode alive. And what Riot did? Gave them a big "we don't care, deal with it". As a result a ton of them left the game. Let's not even talk about the bots... You can't ask people to have patience forever, sometimes it's really hard.

Zyras Honey PotFeb 4, 20155 votes

Time has proven that being civil results in the same outcome as speaking your mind bluntly but it takes more time to write up something well thought out and civil (Nothing substantial results from either, look at the Cassiopeia and Sona reworks - they were civil and Riot laughed in their faces). Knowing that it's no surprise that people choose to just discuss things in the way that they do. At best speaking civilly just causes the Riot PR crew to come in and say "Oh of course we're paying attention to you guys but this is why we're not listening to you" which isn't the outcome people want.

ZoofFeb 4, 20156 votes

You can't deny though that almost every cassiopia thread bashes onto Stashu, regardless of reasons for this, it's hardly inviting for someone to join a discussion if he already knows that his voice will be drowned in hate and then misquoted for eternity. Especially if the direction you're heading isn't what the public want.

SolaxoFeb 4, 20155 votes

The problem is that making civil threads failed. That's why people are pissed

ProfDrDeathFeb 4, 20156 votes

The problem is that people expect that their threads are followed by immediate action, and think that they are knowing better than experienced professionals.

ByrnesFeb 4, 20155 votes

-Long Post, Sorry-

I appreciate this thread and the Riot responses, but to be 100% honest I don't see this going anywhere. Because it hasn't gone anywhere in years. There are some really serious problems with the game in its current state, most of which I think can be filed under confused direction by the company in whole (by each of its parts). And like OP points out each time a thread gains traction it dies off. And like others have stated, real threads with real concerns and good points almost always go unnoticed. How do we communicate with you guys directly?

Personally, I feel like my biggest concern that has gone unaddressed for a while now is the ranked system. I know you guys have professionals, statisticians, an entire team based around balancing, etc, etc, but from the outside looking in the entire system makes 0 sense mathematically. None. The entire system is based on playing a large amount of games and how you perform over said large amount of games. It has nothing to do with your skill level or ranking, though the two aren't mutually exclusive. I know I don't get to see the data you guys have (I've asked for it numerous times just so I could understand), but as a guy with a phd in mathematics the system is totally unfair towards the player. Even if you sit back as a layman and just think about the system, it makes no sense. At the end of the day the forums gave up on trying to make you guys (Riot) understand the problems that were seen because Riot ultimately said "we can't think of a better system" and "shut up" over and over again.

Do you know how frustrating it is to see all this? And I know you want us to shoot you solutions - I don't have one. Ex Riot employee after ex Riot employee has hinted at the fact that there is some agenda you all live by, and as a company you should have one, but the context has always been that you guys have a direction and we're ultimately just being dragged along with it. I know you can only do so much on the communication and data collection front, but I swear to you some of these problems could probably be solved in less than a day if the problems were just acknowledged.

Anyway, not coming to this thread mad with fist in air, I'm just starting to become disconnected from the game after so many years. I love the game, I love the playstyle, I love each and every one of you community members and Rioters, even those of you who flame me for 40 minutes for misplacing a ward in the bush, but I just feel like I'm losing touch with Riot. I guess what I thought this game could be isn't what everyone else wants it to be.

Jonathan

metaworldpeace10Feb 4, 20154 votes

I agree with the OP on us bein more civil as a community, but I'm not going to lie, the balance team has been really slow on the uptake and it's pretty frustrating. The jungle has been in a bad spot for the whole pre-season. I understand that it wasn't going to be pefect, but I expected a LOT more out of the balance team regarding the jungle. It's been 3-4 patches now of only being able to play Rek'sai, j4, vi and lee. Chilling smite upgrade is far better than trailblazer or poachers in every regard. Top lane is a mess. Mid lane has been shuffled up due to the mana regen nerfs, which multiple rioters have said that it was actually a "buff" lol... I know this game is tough to balance, but I'd really like to see some more aggressive buff/nerf cycles and changes with each patch, rather than these small changes here and there, resulting in less diversity.

TusutakiFeb 4, 20154 votes

Maybe if Rioters actually replied to threads that brings up good points on certain champions or good discussion in general, the majority of us wouldnt feel like being ignored. I know i've seen several good threads over the past months that gets swept under the rug by both the rioters and the community. That is no way shape or form encouraging good threads. None of the less, there is a reason as to why of "Riot are ignoring us" is such rampant.

KingsgraveFeb 4, 20153 votes

If there is no ill intent people assume it. Phrasing threads more civilly won't do anything.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 4, 201512 votes

I'm far more willing to give a chance to something phrased rationally, either with data backing it up or admitting that it's wholly their opinion. Because, then, it's less likely that I'm talking with someone who believes that everything they've said is objectively true.

Command GromptFeb 4, 20153 votes

This. 100% agree.

Hard PenetratorFeb 4, 20153 votes

Riot rarely take so much heat at once.

People hate many of the changes balance team added with Season 5. Gamers feel their favourite game in the world goes in the wrong way just like many previous ones. They scream because they are scared that no one will hear them. And when riot is ready to talk they feel like they didn't accomplish anything meaningful.

I actually hate s5, I hate new dragon, I hate new turrets, I hate new smite and I hate to play against new champions like Kalista, Gnar and Reksai I hate half of the patchnotes that either are useless or still don't talk about my favourite champions that need help to be fair match for popular ones. I hate boring LCS that I was so excited for since s1 but...

But I love this game and I can't just go away and leave SR. I have hope that sooner or later things will get more interesting.

I am way to old to talk rubbish on forum against ppl that works hard to make LoL a better game but I understand teenagers, its hard to not get angry at their age.

Lao Fu the TigerFeb 4, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hard Penetrator,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gyUaWfuf,comment-id=0025,timestamp=2015-02-04T16:32:42.945+0000)

Riot rarely take so much heat at once.

People hate many of the changes balance team added with Season 5. Gamers feel their favourite game in the world goes in the wrong way just like many previous ones. They scream because they are scared that no one will hear them. And when riot is ready to talk they feel like they didn't accomplish anything meaningful.

I actually hate s5, I hate new dragon, I hate new turrets, I hate new smite and I hate to play against new champions like Kalista, Gnar and Reksai I hate half of the patchnotes that either are useless or still don't talk about my favourite champions that need help to be fair match for popular ones. I hate boring LCS that I was so excited for since s1 but...

But I love this game and I can't just go away and leave SR. I have hope that sooner or later things will get more interesting.

I am way to old to talk rubbish on forum against ppl that works hard to make LoL a better game but I understand teenagers, its hard to not get angry at their age.

Right, and disliking these things is perfectly fine.

I just get annoyed when people assume things can ALL be fixed in a single patch. Yes, we want change to some things, but they also do take time. And I don't feel like people are patient enough.

An example is Ahri (in her current live state). People complained and complained and complained about the fact that Ahri was "gutted." They complained that Ahri was getting Olaf'd, and that Ahri was no longer going to be any good, and that the move speed buff was worthless. Plenty of hate-filled threads were made about tearing apart their favourite champion.

One week passes.

"Ahri is OP." "Nerf Ahri, but do it X way." "Her Q is overloaded. Tone it down; it's too powerful."

It's proof that the community operates largely on assumption with little to no evidence. And these threads are perfectly okay in my book as long as they openly state they are expressing their initial thoughts based solely on reading, and that they simply aren't sure yet, rather than "F U RIOT YOU KILLED AHRI" before she was even released, only to QQ about her later.

td;lr: It's not so much about the content of the post. It's about the approach to expressing that content.

AlorasenceFeb 4, 20153 votes

Riot responds to intensity and passion, both positive and negative, more so than passivity. More than civility. So do most humans.

Make of that what you will.

Cale017Feb 4, 20152 votes

Dear god thank you.

JC DarkOmenFeb 4, 20152 votes

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-IfjAatRIBcc/UReMTLu617I/AAAAAAAAJ4c/YHm1iAorF00/s1600/Senor-Chang.gif

but yeah, let's just chill guys

ZencharmFeb 5, 20152 votes

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ THIS.

BaculusFeb 4, 20151 votes

No, the discussion method doesn't work. Riot ignores it all, they ignore the PBE forums, they ignore their playerbase. What we say kindly does not matter to them at all.

But truckloads of raging, angry consumers that get far, far more visibility and agreement than the butt-kissers? That actually gets results with businesses and we need more of that. Personally, I'm not willing to put the time and effort into that (for a ban, of all things), but will happily upvote and support the people willing to do what it takes.

If Riot wants civility, they should reward civility.

EDIT: Remember those East Coast Servers they promised us a few years ago? Yup.

Lao Fu the TigerFeb 4, 20155 votes

{quoted}

No, the discussion method doesn't work. Riot ignores it all, they ignore the PBE forums, they ignore their playerbase. What we say kindly does not matter to them at all.

But truckloads of raging, angry consumers that get far, far more visibility and agreement than the butt-kissers? That actually gets results with businesses and we need more of that. Personally, I'm not willing to put the time and effort into that (for a ban, of all things), but will happily upvote and support the people willing to do what it takes.

If Riot wants civility, they should reward civility.

EDIT: Remember those East Coast Servers they promised us a few years ago? Yup.

I completely disagree, and feel you're missing the point of the thread entirely.

Discussion does work. In fact, it's the ONLY think that works. And the proof is, ironically, within those "hate threads." Is Riot responding to the original poster of the thread? Not usually at all. The responses are to those who express civility in their posts. The comments are directed towards different people who took the thread and composed it better. Their posts may be in opposition to something that has been changed, but at least they are acting like adults when they express their complaints rather than children.

Businesses listen to "raging, angry consumers," but they typically never submit to their demands; being angry and raging is a state of irrationality in which people speak from emotion more than logic. Before you disagree, I'm not saying their anger isn't founded in logic, and I'm not saying that they cannot be logical at the same time. However, somebody who wants to speak and influence another party must not only be logical, but composed and open to reasoning rather than maintain a rigid stance. This has nothing to do with butt-kissing; it's a fact that people are more willing to talk and listen (and even concede they're wrong) when the disagreement is displayed in a calm, rational manner. In short, a discussion should always feel safe, without the fear of any party flying off the handle at a moment's notice.

There is absolutely no need to reward civility. Do you get rewarded by the government for being a "decent citizen?" No. Did you get rewarded by the teacher for not talking in class? No. It is expected. But you will certainly get punished in those circumstances for acting in an uncivil manner. Likewise, on the forums, you won't get rewarded for being a decent human being. You will, however, be disappointed in the concrete response you get from Riot in the form of game changes if all you do is rage, no matter how backed up you are by the community. That is, at least until somebody from the community makes a post that actually discusses the problems in a proper manner.

I won't acknowledge the servers comment, since Riot just released a thread regarding the ongoing status of those changes.