So why are enchanters are allowed to react to assassins instantly?

Craft Zeppelin·Oct 18, 2017·7 votes·832 views

While we have to proc our 2.5 second delayed damage marks and they are allowed to polymorph, shield, silence us and ruin our highcooldown spells or null our engages totally? Where is the counterplay in that? most of those cant even be reacted by QSS or anything. In the past. assassins were meant to counter these sort of squishy supports. Or scale up their defensive spells by high damage. When did this get warped?

If you remove a total class of a counter of a specific class, of course they are going to thrive.

30 Comments

SwollwonderOct 18, 20179 votes

The counter play is that you're an assassin...you kill people when they're alone...not "You're in the middle of your entire team but it doesn't matter and I'm going to kill you anyway".

Assassins punish people who have poor positioning and split push. If someone's positioning is fine then they don't deserve to get insta nuked because you felt like it.

RebonackOct 18, 20175 votes

{quoted}

The counter play is that you're an assassin...you kill people when they're alone...not "You're in the middle of your entire team but it doesn't matter and I'm going to kill you anyway".

Assassins punish people who have poor positioning and split push. If someone's positioning is fine then they don't deserve to get insta nuked because you felt like it.

If only this game didn't revolve around grouping up to take primary objectives as a team...

SwollwonderOct 18, 20171 votes

You still shouldn't be able to just 1v5 just because "muh class". That's unhealthy. Team fighting as an assassin relies on making sure you don't get peeled or the shields or down. It is possible, just harder. Just like how assassins thrive in 1v1's tanks thrive in team fights and suffer in lane. That's just how the game works.

BigBellBruteOct 18, 20172 votes

{quoted}

The counter play is that you're an assassin...you kill people when they're alone...not "You're in the middle of your entire team but it doesn't matter and I'm going to kill you anyway".

Assassins punish people who have poor positioning and split push. If someone's positioning is fine then they don't deserve to get insta nuked because you felt like it.

If you're a squishy and an assassin gets to you in a team fight and you're not a tank, you either weren't positioned properly or your tanks didn't play properly. Therefore he should still erase you. But if you're in the middle of your team, well he should get erased soon after.

If you give counterplay against every other class to a class, you over power that class. If you give counterplay to a class by every other class, you underpower that class. Pure assassins are way underpowered. They can barely team fight at all and half the time they can't erase an ADC any more because that ADC can two auto them.

SwollwonderOct 18, 20171 votes

I didn't say ADCs were healthy in their state. They're not. Just that assassins should not be able to just jump into the enemy team and kill whoever they feel like.

I also don't feel like assassins should be able to team fight well. That's something you give up for picking it. BUT if the enemy front line goes in, the sup uses their shield to keep that front line alive (your adc doing work on the tanks) then an opening just opened up. It's not impossible to play assassins but you have to be stealthy now. Which is kinda the point.

wyvern011976Oct 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If you're a squishy and an assassin gets to you in a team fight and you're not a tank, you either weren't positioned properly or your tanks didn't play properly. Therefore he should still erase you. But if you're in the middle of your team, well he should get erased soon after.

If you give counterplay against every other class to a class, you over power that class. If you give counterplay to a class by every other class, you underpower that class. Pure assassins are way underpowered. They can barely team fight at all and half the time they can't erase an ADC any more because that ADC can two auto them.

They are not under-powered. They are just a niche role. Trying to force one onto every team composition is the cause of most of the whining on here. They are not right for every game so stop trying to make them work every game. Learn to be a team players and bring something to table. Notice that the pros play assassins but almost always as a last pick if the enemy composition is right for it.

PennsOct 18, 20173 votes

So.. stop playing assassins once you reach anything above diamond?

SwollwonderOct 18, 20171 votes

Just gonna copy and paste what I said below. Granted I'm not diamond but also the vast majority of the player base isn't either so in most cases it should probably hold up.

PennsOct 18, 20172 votes

Supports having no counterplay and no delays or adcs having more burst with undodgable aas than assassins is unhealthy too. So either Riot reworks those again or they all main bot lane hehe

SwollwonderOct 18, 20171 votes

I didn't say ADC's were healthy. Thats not the point here. The point is you shouldn't be able to nuke someone just because you feel like it. If you put a delay on shield like you put a delay on assassins then all you've done is made the time equal. Assassins will still be able to kill with impunity like before the rework.

Assassins can choose when to go in. Supports can't. if an ADC and a support engages on you, you deserve to lose a 2v1. You shouldn't be fighting that. If you're doing the job of an assassin, flanking, and only engaging when you can pull off your kill then you deserve the kill.

PennsOct 19, 20173 votes

So we are basically back to square one.. .. dont play assassins once you reached anything higher than ~low diamond?

Im sure you can make assassins kill squishies in teamfights while not making them do it "because you feel like it". Like... like with a skillshot, something like Fizz ult kek. But he cant kill an adc even if he lands that, thats the problem.

Variks the LoyalOct 19, 20172 votes

As an Assassin, it's your job to be patient. Sit on the flank and wait for the enemy Support to use their defensive tools once the teamfight starts. Once they're gone, you pounce.

It's not just about roaming and catching enemies out of position, it's about knowing the right time to strike when the teamfight does begin. This is why an Assassin really needs a Tank on their team to soak up the breadth of the enemy's skills before the Assassin can go in.

HellioningOct 18, 20174 votes

So what's the alternative? You can jump in right next to me, kill my ADC, and I can't do anything?

Craft ZeppelinOct 19, 20172 votes

{quoted}

So what's the alternative? You can jump in right next to me, kill my ADC, and I can't do anything?

If you allowed an assassin to go upfront. Yes, that is the assassins goal and you failed. The current problem the meta is facing is how the enchanter class is a battery pack for the adc, providing massive disruptions to actually kill said battery pack, providing invisible power due to buffs. Compared to wardens which are actually meant to peel the amount of agency provided is ludicrous.

I will rather face a thresh rather a lulu or janna these days and that is something.

HellioningOct 19, 20172 votes

So, I'm supposed to prevent the Zed or Talon or Fizz with point or click abilities from touching my ADC at all? Especially since Zed has a blink, Talon has his wall hopping, and Fizz has his playful trickster, without getting into their dashes.

Craft ZeppelinOct 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So, I'm supposed to prevent the Zed or Talon or Fizz with point or click abilities from touching my ADC at all? Especially since Zed has a blink, Talon has his wall hopping, and Fizz has his playful trickster, without getting into their dashes.

They are meant to breach defensives. And if you read my comments, I said nothing about adcs. I am saying why do not enchanters themselves die if targeted.

wyvern011976Oct 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kEfqbFd3,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-19T06:41:42.918+0000)

They are meant to breach defensives. And if you read my comments, I said nothing about adcs. I am saying why do not enchanters themselves die if targeted.

No they are the opposite...wtf. They are meant to wait until you have no defenses. That's your issue... you don't understand your window of opportunity with them. They are not supposed to be "breaching defenses" try juggernauts for that. They get shut out by defenses. They are opportunist that require some the most patient and well timed play patterns in the game. For one if you are trying to go 20/0 with them you are misplaying them. They are waiting for that one chance to turn a 5v5 into a 4v5 so the team can capitalize on the advantage.

Variks the LoyalOct 19, 20172 votes

All of that does have counterplay. Zed is based on skillshots so give your ADC movement speed they can use to avoid them. Ward your flanks so your team sees Talon coming before he hops the wall and can bait him into a trap. Fizz can hop through everyone, but you have the option of either body blocking the fish, or CCing the Fizz after he comes off his troll pole.

They all have dashes, but Assassins need them to function. They're telegraphed and you have ways to play around it and counter it.

Craft ZeppelinOct 19, 20171 votes

Ah, someone who gets it. The "assassins" in this game are hardly reliant compared to season pre 5. But now they have delayed stronger burst. That is fine. We always had access to targets and that is how this game worked.

Now, we simply cannot target the adc because of the enchanter class preventing us. So we target said enhanter because they are supposed to be squishy, but itemizatiom makes them somewhat tanky.

So logically now, what the hell are we supposed to target now? Enchanters applying survivability to an ally is ok, why are they themselves can now leech off that and become unkillable?

This meta is madness. The bot DUO is unkillable, not just the ADC.

Variks the LoyalOct 19, 20171 votes

That's one of the reasons why they're going to retool item 3190 so it's a buy for Tank Supports and not Enchanter Supports again. A lot of people forget about the free resists that Enchanters get from a lot of these items.

Craft ZeppelinOct 20, 20171 votes

Thank god. That alone makes me relieved.

The warmog locket from a raka is a serious turn off anytime.

higuraOct 19, 20172 votes

love the focus on "enhanters" in this post, like it isn't just what supports is suppose to be doing in general.

because if you jump the ADC while any of these champs is standing right next to them Alistar Blitzcrank Leona are your day just gonna be soo much better isn't it?, dance on sunflowers, let me tell you...

also:

assassins were meant to counter these sort of squishy supports.

nope, other way around, supports are all about disengage and CC, 2 things that counters assassins and divers.

Craft ZeppelinOct 19, 20171 votes

Blitz alistar or leona do not counter assassins. Like do you even play support. Those champs are literally the hardest to counter assassins because of their skillshot reliancy.

higuraOct 19, 20171 votes

Alistar W + Q combo into a E = no skill shot needed

Blitzcrank E + R and then Q at point blank range = no skill shot needed

Leona Q + R + E point blank range = no skill shot needed

and have been maining support sense season 2...

Craft ZeppelinOct 19, 20171 votes

Those are engaging supports. They are extremely weak on being engaged because they are not worth targeting if engaged. They cannot deal with assassins, because practically they need to deal with frontliners 1st.

ZerdunOct 18, 20171 votes

The enchanter support role is more of a reactionary one because of how it is designed, it focuses on healing and/or shielding. That is just it though, in order to counter play them you generally have to force their buttons via jump scares or waiting for them to use them elsewhere then go in. Its just part of the game design

NekoniClawsOct 19, 20171 votes

Yeah I'm not liking Lulu right now. Not because I'm an assassin but because I'm a tank.

I'm low elo but I like to see Lulu waste her CC on me and that to be a dumb move on her part for NOT saving it for the assassin. Not to just create a 4v5 for my team.