Tank supports have dominated for over 2 years now, could some action be taken?

RedCyclone·Sep 28, 2015·22 votes·2,063 views

Because if anyone not named Thresh/Leona/Blitz/Braum/Naut gets a over 10% pickrate or wins over 3 games in LCS they are INSTANTLY NERFED

Can we please have a damn support update, either centered around toning down what makes tanky supports make up 95% of teams or something positive to the supports who are not played as much? I really don't think I am the only one who is sick of playing against a tanky support every game, it's boring

76 Comments

ScriptBrandSep 28, 201521 votes

Annie Bard Janna Lulu Morgana Nami Soraka Sona wut?

VDc0zCqe0wSep 28, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=TSM Turt Wildr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kAKHLNvR,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-09-28T10:45:19.743+0000)

wut?

Bard is unviable trash that only Aphromoo and Krepo (wich is not even relevant since S4) play

Annie is barely played in yoloQ as support

Lulu is trash

Sona is trash

Morgana is meh (and she plays as a tank)

CaramélaSep 28, 20159 votes

you are sooo wrong i dont even have to prove it to u. if u consider bard, lulu and sona trash then you obviously dont know support. yes, tank supports are definately more popular but not because they are better but because the tanks in general are better to have and what's the best way to just build full tank and not having to worry about dmg? tank supports. but many non tank supps counter the tank ones.

khorneySep 28, 20151 votes

not with taric more armor for him means more damage for him

SherogarthSep 28, 20156 votes

"Lost and forgotten." Taric ;(

ShaftyMegeeSep 28, 20151 votes

So outrageously sad :(

Pandemic PunchSep 28, 201513 votes

For the past year and a half, Janna had the highest win rate of all other supports and had the highest win rate of all champions in the game on some occasions. That is one example.

VDc0zCqe0wSep 28, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tarics Gemstones,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kAKHLNvR,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-09-28T11:48:01.811+0000)

For the past year and a half, Janna had the highest win rate of all other supports and had the highest win rate of all champions in the game on some occasions. That is one example.

oh..it's the "winrate argument" all over again, nothing to see here

IcyPepperSep 28, 20152 votes

But it fits the context.

Janna was both popular and successful, and the statistics proved it. He's not wrong, and the old "winrate argument" is merely supporting his claim, not saying that Janna is OP or whatever.

If we're going to talk about champions dominating, winrate and pickrate is bound to come up.

VDc0zCqe0wSep 28, 20152 votes

{quoted}

But it fits the context.

The "HURRDURR HIGH WINRATE, MUST BE OP" context?

{quoted}

Janna was both popular and successful, and the statistics proved it. He's not wrong, and the old "winrate argument" is merely supporting his claim, not saying that Janna is OP or whatever.

Where are the Veigar (yes, VEIGAR), Ahri, Lux nerfs then?

Yes, those 3 champs all deserve nerfs, but Bronze & Balance can't grasp the concept of Lux or Veigar being overpowered, right?

Only Vayne, Riven and Yasuo are OP here.

Thank god i don't see Zed threads anymore, they were starting to get a little ridiculous.

{quoted}

If we're going to talk about champions dominating, winrate and pickrate is bound to come up.

In soloQ?

Why do you have to balance the game around shitters playing randomly?

These kinds of arguments are the reason why Thresh is gonna dominate this game forever, and if we're gonna balance the game around soloq i ask again: where are Veigar, Lux and Ahri nerfs?

IcyPepperSep 28, 20152 votes

I'm not saying anyone is OP or not, I just said using winrate is just one way to support one's claim in terms of dominance.

I'm not advocating any nerfs or buffs for any champion in this thread. Yes, Lux is actually really good right now. Riven was dominant, but really fell this patch and isn't seen nearly as much. Veigar has the capability of being ridiculously overpowered if he snowballs against AP opponents, and is still strong in teamfights if he lands his stun. Pretty sure there's a huge crowd that wants Ahri nerfed, and I believe she's getting her sustain nerfed soon? Vayne is really dominant right now, and Thresh will always see play at every tier. I honestly have no opinion on Yasuo, to be honest. And Zed is Zed, this isn't Season 4 anymore.

There, that's my opinions.

Anyway, no I don't think winrates or pickrates are the only thing you should lean on when discussing champion balance, it should only be used to support a claim. Janna was considered dominant at certain points of the game, due to her disengage being handy against several hard engage tank supports. That guy was adding to the discussion, pointing out that there was a non-tank support that had plenty of success, and even if he hadn't brought up winrate I think he had a fair point nonetheless. She has a victorious skin for a reason, you know.

Pandemic PunchSep 29, 20151 votes

Yes. Win rate means something. Why do you think everyone was picking Skarner when he got super buffed or when everyone was picking Warwick on patch 4.20 ;-)

RedCycloneSep 28, 20154 votes

True, but she wasn't played in every damn game She recently gained a lot of popularity, then got nerfed for said popularity

the support role is 2/3rds neglect and 1/3rd favoritism

Pandemic PunchSep 29, 20151 votes

I think that it is THAT much more impressive if she is played in most games and still has one of the highest win rates in the game.

RedCycloneSep 29, 20151 votes

Because she isn't a go to support like Thresh for EVERYONE

Pandemic PunchSep 29, 20151 votes

That friggin THRESH EVERY GAME!!!! AGHHHHH!!!!!

AbyssphereSep 28, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tarics Gemstones,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kAKHLNvR,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-09-28T11:48:01.811+0000)

For the past year and a half, Janna had the highest win rate of all other supports and had the highest win rate of all champions in the game on some occasions. That is one example.

Have you considered that Janna might have done well for the past year and a half because she's constantly playing against tank supports, and hard counters them all? Not every mage support is lucky enough to have Janna's disengage potential.

kJsSep 28, 20151 votes

Should she rise in popularity then? Or is it simply because she's harder to play than tank supports?

Sir YamazukiSep 28, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Have you considered that Janna might have done well for the past year and a half because she's constantly playing against tank supports, and hard counters them all? Not every mage support is lucky enough to have Janna's disengage potential.

She had a high win rate long before as well, I forgot whether it was 2 or 3, but she had almost 60% win rate for a very long time.

AbyssphereSep 29, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kAKHLNvR,comment-id=000700020001,timestamp=2015-09-28T18:46:46.191+0000)

She had a high win rate long before as well, I forgot whether it was 2 or 3, but she had almost 60% win rate for a very long time.

She hasn't been dominant for that long. She was buffed as recently as 4.13 and has been pretty strong since then, but that's pretty much a year and a half - before then she was considered weak.

But it's not simply a case of "Janna is always strong", you have to look into the reasons behind that. Janna got pretty decent buffs in 4.13 to make her relevant - she was a dominant support, but not some crazy "outclasses literally everyone at everything" champion. She was strong then because she just had great numbers in general, which allowed her to perform, but since then she's gotten:

Howling Gale hitbox reduced by 20%
Howling Gale minimum distance gutted
Zephyr max rank cooldown increased by 50%
Tailwind no longer benefits Janna, benefits her team in less situations, then made to refresh faster
Monsoon AP ratio reduced

All of her abilities bar her E are weaker than they were this time last year. If you ask me she's a weaker champion now than she was before her buffs in 4.13. But she's still relevant - why? Because as long as she has a knockup and a knockback and a slow and a shield and a team-wide speed up for running away, she'll be strong against tanks. And she faces tanks in almost all of her games, so...

It is genuinely not possible for Janna to be weak in this neverending tank support meta, that is why she is so continuously strong even when she's nerfed again and again and again. She cannot be used as an example of mage supports being strong when she's so continuously popular because she is almost never playing against the champions who are supposed to counter her (pokey supports) and is consistently faced with the "supports" that she's designed to eat for breakfast.

Janna being in the meta should be a warning sign that mage supports are weak, not strong. She herself is a strong mage support, sure, but she is only strong when most of the others are underperforming, and when tanks are overperforming. If mage supports as a class were actually strong right now, Janna would be nowhere to be seen.

Pandemic PunchSep 29, 20151 votes

I said she was ONE example.

AbyssphereSep 29, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tarics Gemstones,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kAKHLNvR,comment-id=000700020002,timestamp=2015-09-29T07:27:34.998+0000)

I said she was ONE example.

She's by far the most prominent one though. Every other mage support has seen sparing use, Janna's the only one who's been consistently on top. And the other ones who've been prominent in pro play this season have also had strong abilities to counter tanks - Lulu has a kit that's almost as good at saving people who get dived on as Janna's and Morgana's Black Shield is an almost hard counter to tanks to boot.

Even Soraka's showing up because her silence/snare is extremely potent against tanks and her heals mean that she has a good chance at saving a priority target that gets dived on. Meanwhile people like Nami and Sona who don't have the same level of life-saving powers are ignored because they can't consistently save their ADCs from hard engages.

Bot lane meta is completely based around who can engage hard (tanks) and who can disengage hard enough to counter the engages (very specific mage supports, also Braum). If you aren't a tank and you don't counter them specifically, you're not going to be played. It's ridiculous.

Pandemic PunchSep 30, 20151 votes

I think you just proved my original point so I don't really have to say anything else other than you are wrong about Nami. Don't forget about Zyra as well for doing much better than every tank support. We are getting to a point in the argument here where we will have to consider what elo we are talking about. I am referring to overall which includes all of us peasants from plat all the way down to bronze.

Silents429Sep 28, 20156 votes

Don't you fucking dare nerf Nautilus because of the support role.

CoolKnightSTSep 28, 20155 votes

It's kinda logical that tank supports are that common if nobody else wants to take a frontline for your god dam teamcomp. Supports already are risky to pick as your only frontline so unless they pick a supportive tank top or jungle you will always be stuck picking something tanky in the botlane. Let's check the meta right now:

Top: Dueslist/Jugger
Mid: TP mage/Assasin
Jungle: Carry/Mage/Fighter (the pool is actualy pretty hugh, only tank jungler aren't popular anymore these days)
Duolane - Carry: Duelist/Hypercarry
Duolane - Support: Engage/Disengage supports

You noticed that in the midgame your team will heavy lack tankness but everyone will be building damage. This litterly forces the support into something tanky that can support the frontline till the champions are strong enouge to be the frontline.

freeformlineSep 28, 20151 votes

This right here is how I almost became a Braum main.

WorgenflorgenSep 28, 20153 votes

No.

Especially when tanky supports being the dominant support and other supports being weak isn't even remotely true.

Soraka is actually one of the strongest supports in the game rn, and Janna, Morgana, and Nami will always be relevant. Only ones I'll give you are Lulu and Sona. Lulu might be mediocre support, but that's entirely because of her solo lane play, so she should be considered a solo laner at this point. And Sona is oppressive to lane against when she's good.

Last season saw a bunch of Karma and Annie play, too. Also not tanks.

VDc0zCqe0wSep 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Especially when tanky supports being the dominant support and other supports being weak isn't even remotely true.

I must be drunk because i swear i see at least 1 tank support per game, and if i'm not the one playing support then it's usually 2 per game

{quoted}

Soraka is actually one of the strongest supports in the game rn, and Janna, Morgana, and Nami will always be relevant. Only ones I'll give you are Lulu and Sona. And Sona is oppressive to lane against when she's good.

Soraka is good, but Morgana is not that good anymore, same as Janna (probably? not that sure), not quite sure for Nami but i think she's quite good.

{quoted}

Lulu might be mediocre support, but that's entirely because of her solo lane play, so she should be considered a solo laner at this point.

So when do cancerous Blitz/Leona/Nautilus move to toplane? Their only existance plagues botlane.

{quoted}

Last season saw a bunch of Karma and Annie play, too. Also not tanks.

Karma is unplayable trash that only Lemonation plays (and no wonder he's not that good), Annie is quite meh.

But the whole point about this post is that if a non-tank support sees plays and success (be it in yoloQ or competitive), they are instantly nerfed: this is not the case for tanks.

WorgenflorgenSep 28, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Puffball idk,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kAKHLNvR,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-09-28T11:23:53.018+0000)

I must be drunk because i swear i see at least 1 tank support per game, and if i'm not the one playing support then it's usually 2 per game

Soraka is good, but Morgana is not that good anymore, same as Janna (probably? not that sure), not quite sure for Nami but i think she's quite good.

So when do cancerous Blitz/Leona/Nautilus move to toplane? Their only existance plagues botlane.

Karma is unplayable trash that only Lemonation plays (and no wonder he's not that good), Annie is quite meh.

But the whole point about this post is that if a non-tank support sees plays and success (be it in yoloQ or competitive), they are instantly nerfed: this is not the case for tanks.

Janna still sees plenty of professional play. Nami not so much anymore but I'm sure we'll be seeing more of her come Worlds. She was all over in Season 4, and her nerfs were relatively minor and made to cut back on her safety.

Also I'm not saying Karma's good, but she's seen pro play and she's seen use in solo queue as well, not exactly putting weight on your "tank supports are the only supports in the game for the past two seasons" argument. She also hasn't ever been directly nerfed-- Riot just tried to make her a stronger support with... interesting results...

Considering Janna had an insane pick rate in early season 5 and preseason 5 even, and she forces disengages like no one's business, she's seen some amounts of nerfs to try to curb her engage potential and force weaknesses rather than gut her strengths. Morgana's been nerfed too because she was pick/ban on every level of play, not because Riot has a tank bias. There's a reason Victorious Morgana was brought in. Bot lane in season 4 basically became "Pick/ban Morgana or anyone who can play against her." She's the most-banned support in the EU LCS this year alone. It was incredibly deserved.

Do you not forget that Leona's been nerfed too? Hell, Leona forced a change of an entire item. Doran's Shield start used to be viable bottom lane, and once it was revealed that it was dominating the scene, they changed it so that it was less reliable and then buffed Spellthief's Edge and changed around Coin and Relic Shield. Her passive got nerfs as well, as well as her bases on her W. She's not as tanky as she used to be.

Thresh has lost AA range, shield targets, he's had various other nerfs that I can't remember. Blitzcrank's W slows him down now, and his mana costs were already quite high.

So, no, OP, you're wrong. Objectively wrong. And those tank supports you listed can go top lane when Riot gives them any amount of laning ability at all.

VDc0zCqe0wSep 28, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Janna still sees plenty of professional play.

After that completely nonsensical Q nerf? We'll see, i doubt it tho.

{quoted}

Nami not so much anymore but I'm sure we'll be seeing more of her come Worlds. She was all over in Season 4, and her nerfs were relatively minor and made to cut back on her safety.

Nami will never be nerfed because she takes alot of skill to play, that's really the only exception to the WHOLE class, everything else has been nerfed hard from time to time.

{quoted}

Considering Janna had an insane pick rate in early season 5 and preseason 5 even, and she forces disengages like no one's business, she's seen some amounts of nerfs to try to curb her engage potential and force weaknesses rather than gut her strengths. Morgana's been nerfed too because she was pick/ban on every level of play, not because Riot has a tank bias.

And what's the reason behind nonsensical Sona nerfs? I guess they did that because of her insanely strong tournament play /s

{quoted}

Do you not forget that Leona's been nerfed too? Hell, Leona forced a change of an entire item. Doran's Shield start used to be viable bottom lane, and once it was revealed that it was dominating the scene, they changed it so that it was less reliable and then buffed Spellthief's Edge and changed around Coin and Relic Shield. Her passive got nerfs as well, as well as her bases on her W. She's not as tanky as she used to be.

Call me when she will be nerfed 3-4 patches in a row then we'll talk, because that's what happens to non-tank supports (Janna in S2, and even now tbh, Sona after rework)

Those Leona """""nerfs"""" were lovetaps, those Braum """"nerfs"""" are lovetaps (after a buff).

Don't forget that relic shield is utterly overpowered since release and spellthief is useless since S4 nerfs.

Riot has got a tank support bias since S4 preseason, where is Nautilus and Braum gutting? Because that's what they deserve atm.

Maximum MordeSep 28, 20153 votes

Probably because squishy supports are basically a free kill walking once jungle/mid lane hits 6.

FiveofswordsSep 28, 20152 votes

this simply isnt true. high level game are not always tanky support. The various non tanky supports see plenty of play and do perfectly fine. the choice seems to be mroe about team comp than the support itself.

NemeBroSep 28, 20152 votes

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Support&sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend

All those poor non-tank supports. =(

LankPantsSep 28, 20151 votes

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Support&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend

Look at how often they're picked.

ZazushaSep 28, 20152 votes

you missed the elephant in the room, or rather, Cow Alistar

RedCycloneSep 28, 20154 votes

I left Ali out, because unlike the other tanky supports, he seems to be the only one who gets nerfed if he gets way too popular I guess Blitz did get some nerfs too, but no where as much attention as Ali

Gare JordansSep 28, 20152 votes

I'd make a honest reply, but I don't think you're here to have a discussion, but rather insult and pick apart anyone saying anything different than you.

Common non tank supports in the LCS: Nami Soraka Janna Annie Morgana Nami and Janna are picked to counter hard engage such as Alistar, Malphite, etc. Soraka, Annie, and Morgana being picked to keep front-liners alive, or to finish off a poke comp. Morgana is also good for pick-offs and shielding a carry from hard CC such as Alistar, Blitzcrank, Thresh, Leona, etc. Annie is good for applying pressure in lane and in grouping phase to hard engage supports.

Non tank supports are often picked when the team has a tanky top laner and/or jungler. Tank supports are picked when the top laner or jungler goes squishy. Also, each support has a trade off for being picked. Pros take that into account as well.

VDc0zCqe0wSep 28, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gare Jordans,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kAKHLNvR,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2015-09-28T15:08:54.297+0000)

I'd make a honest reply, but I don't think you're here to have a discussion, but rather insult and pick apart anyone saying anything different than you.

Common non tank supports in the LCS:

"Common"

Nami never ever picked in summer split, Soraka picked 2 times, Annie a few times.

Meanwhile Braum, Alistar, Nautilus and Thresh in every single game.

DokiDokiTodorokiSep 28, 20151 votes

Annie's played 23/93 games in NA LCS this summer split, which is more than a few. That's after the nerfs that really hurt her laning phase. Braum is a niche pick and was only picked 12 times. Alistar, Nautilus, and Thresh all were picked between 35-40 times, but the likes of SIVIR was picked more times than that, and no one's complaining about her. The reality is that tank supports are necessary because in the LCS, no support is getting much gold. A 4 item, not counting wards, support is usually a sign that a game went way too long. All four tank supports that were popular had some short of damage reduction and hard cc built into their kit. It's why you don't see as much Leona, because she actually requires more items. As far as LCS strats go, convenient utility is perfect.

MrWasjigSep 28, 20152 votes

At least this thread isn't QQing about Thresh alone. That's nice.

MegaSupportGuySep 28, 20152 votes

remember the good old days when sona support was the best T_T pepper ridge farms remembers

Subject 5Sep 29, 20152 votes

Riot: "Oh, wow people are picking non-tank supports and even taking them to other lanes! NERF THAT PIECE OF-"

Janna Lulu Sona Karma Morgana

CaythelesSep 28, 20151 votes

All supports are pretty much Balances (with the exception of Tahm Kench) All supports have counters. Ive played Every support and they are all Viable in their own unique way, Just learn how to play them to the full extent and you will see that Tanks are not ahead.

jjookkeerrSep 29, 20151 votes

Thresh counterplay? LOL

SleepyLionCubSep 29, 20151 votes

Annie Soraka Morgana Janna

Yes.... those tanky supports. Let's be rid of them.

DJ Di0Sep 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Support&sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend

All those poor non-tank supports. =(

Yea just gloss over the fact that the highest winrate is Brand 'support', and that the non-tanky supports that aren't Janna have low pick rates.

https://i.gyazo.com/379719bd2b66ad4b76135544a8a2dc93.png

https://i.gyazo.com/d7dca5b628c87945c46df79f856c7126.png

Notice how all the tank supports are in top-10 played?

RisenDarkKnightSep 29, 20151 votes

Janna, Annie, and Morgana have been dominant supports for a long time. Janna is probably one of the most picked supports. Also I would argue that thresh is not necessarily a tank support, because his base stats are not very tanky, since he is ranged, and many times in the lcs they don't build tank items on him. I mean, a thresh with sightone, talisman, mobi boots, and mickaels crucible is very squishy.

RisenDarkKnightSep 29, 20151 votes

Also leona is not picked very often in the lcs. Nami is only picked slightly less than leona. Same with blitz. It's really the thresh/braum/janna/annie show with the occasional morg or naut.

XonraSep 30, 20151 votes

Actually Annie and Morg dominated support for most of last year. Braum was the only tank that was that popular for the most part, and it wasn't until earlier this year that Naut support was really a thing on a more regular basis. Leona hasn't been near as popular for quite a while, and while not bad, she isn't as popular as she was.