AP:AD Ratio is 1.25:1 now? Pretty sure it was around 2:1 for 6 seasons?

RedCyclone·Sep 26, 2017·66 votes·2,503 views

Looking at all the new runes I see that everything that can be used for either AP/AD that all the ratios give way more gold in stats for AD over AP

When the hell did this change happen? AP as a stat always worked in a way that you would always have way more of it then AD because of how much AP relies off AP ratios that rarely go above 1

Just look at Rising Storm Starts out at 8 AP or 6 AD and goes upto 168 AP or 126 AD So it starts out at 174 gold value (AP) or 210 gold value (AD), ending on 3654 value (AP) and 4410 value (AD)

It's seen through all the runes with hybrid ratios, AP just apparently isn't worth jack shit anymore

56 Comments

RocketRelmSep 27, 201731 votes

It's been a slow burn over the past few seasons, AP's been dripping out of the item set bit by bit until we wake up in S7 with core items that are mostly 70-80 AP, with some being 100, whereas before you could get AP builds with 120 AP on 3+ items before. This isn't a new thing, the change has been happening, albeit slowly, over the last couple years.

(Also, 8 AP or 6 AD is a 1:33-1 ratio, not 1:25, but the issue stands)

PopcornBunniSep 27, 201713 votes

{quoted}

It's been a slow burn over the past few seasons, AP's been dripping out of the item set bit by bit until we wake up in S7 with core items that are mostly 70-80 AP, with some being 100, whereas before you could get AP builds with 120 AP on 3+ items before. This isn't a new thing, the change has been happening, albeit slowly, over the last couple years.

(Also, 8 AP or 6 AD is a 1:33-1 ratio, not 1:25, but the issue stands)

To add that, mages have been forced into being utility bots essentially. Even to the point that item 3146 has become core because AP isn't worth jack shit unless coupled with major sustain or utility.

Does any mage besides Veigar even build item 3089 at this point?

DuskDaUmbreonSep 27, 20171 votes

Any mage that wants insanely high AP does.

You can still easily crack 1k AP with the right builds. Just accept you won't have defenses (beyond RoA) or utility (beyond innate utility) at that point. You'll be nothing but raw burst damage.

Spank the FoxSep 27, 201714 votes

I don't think easily is the correct term.

Items: Deathcap 120 Void 70 Archangel 130 Morello 100 Rod or Luden 100 = 520

Basic Bitch Runes: 15 AP Quints (MR blues)

Natural Talent mastery: 15AP

Elixir of Sorcery: 50AP

Total: 600AP Now x1.35 for deathcap passive: 810 AP

Even factoring in ineffective full AP rune pages, Baron Nashor and maybe +10-15 AP from Seraph depending on champ's base mana and RoA, you're really stretching to hit 1k AP, let alone easily cracking it.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 27, 20171 votes

Void staff is 80 AP, not 70. And you can rely on Seraph's to hit closer to 140 than 130.

120+80+140+100+100=540.

80 from runes, masteries, and Sorcery, for 620.

35% bonus from Rabadon's, for 837.

And then there's infernal drake, which it's pretty common to see at least one of, for 904 AP. (Damn, that 8% is a lot).

And then that's assuming you take the far less efficient flat AP runes, rather than taking scaling ones. Take scaling AP marks, for...2 extra AP. ._. Nevermind then.

Okay. So it's not quite 1k. But still. That's a lot of AP.

When most champions aren't capable of passing 500 AD.

Sraeg2013Sep 27, 20174 votes

And then there's infernal drake, which it's pretty common to see at least one of, for 904 AP. (Damn, that 8% is a lot).

Infernal Drake's bonus is separate and derived from unmodified AP/AD, so in this example:

620 * 1,35 + 620 * 0,08 * (number of Infernal stacks) = 886,7 AP

Ariel the CruelSep 27, 20172 votes

When most champions aren't capable of passing 500 AD.

Just stirring the pot here. :^)

300 AD. Crit -> 600 AA Damage. IE crit -> 750 AA Damage.

item 3031 70/20% item 3046 0/30% item 3508 70/20% item 3072 80/0 item 3036 50/0 item 3006 0/0

270 AD, 70% crit, 75% AS, 30% CDR, 35% Bonus Armor pen, 45+5-12% MS, 16 800 gold.

lvl 1 Oriana AD: 40.368

lvl 1 Mord: 1.05175 AS (5th lowest) lvl 18 Vayne: 1.93375 (Highest)

--------------

Opposed to your build

item 3089 item 3135 item 3003 item 3165 item 3027 item 3020

729 AP (your math, items only), 20% CDR, 35% magic Pen, 45 MS, 16 250 gold.

Sraeg2013Sep 27, 20171 votes

Archangel 130

Most mages have at least 1000 mana at 18 level + 400 from Morello which ends up being at least 150 AP. Some mages like Cassio, Syndra or Kassadin will get even 180 AP from Seraph's at level 18.

Doesn't change much, because you can't break 900 AP without multiple Infernal Drake buffs or very inefficient builds.

The 99th ProblemSep 28, 20171 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/x8eH6rkK-why-no-ap-assassinfighter-compensation-buffs

DragonSheaSep 26, 201729 votes

Yeah and that bullshit Rune Nullification orb is just gonna ruin mages even more, Seriously. a Hexdrinker shield as a rune?! That is another kick in the balls to mages.

WoonStruckSep 27, 20171 votes

Its weaker than hexdrinker, and they're probably removing that passive from hexdrinker, and not letting Maw and that rune stack.

Maybe even removing Maw entirely.

AhrisSep 27, 201713 votes

{quoted}

Its weaker than hexdrinker, and they're probably removing that passive from hexdrinker, and not letting Maw and that rune stack.

Maybe even removing Maw entirely.

I doubt Riot will remove it. Pretty sure it is going to stack as well.

riot did say they are going to make items to destroy shield, but useless item to get if enemy doesnt have shield. So overall Mages are ruined.

AhrisSep 27, 201729 votes

{quoted}

Yeah and that bullshit Rune Nullification orb is just gonna ruin mages even more, Seriously. a Hexdrinker shield as a rune?! That is another kick in the balls to mages.

For some reason Riot doesn't add a shield against AD.

SpoofghoulSep 27, 20175 votes

i do not want a shield against AD

compared to AD ap relies a lot more on burst and ad always has the option of basic attack dps

shields are simply less effective vs them

i would rather have a rune which renders me immune to armorpen instead

FairyfleurSep 27, 20178 votes

I think the point they're trying to make is that most mages who would take this armor shield are against Zed and Talon, and would love a shield for their burst.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 27, 20171 votes

It's the same fucking thing as Kassadin's Q's shield. It's not going to "ruin mages".

NineTailedMysticSep 27, 20172 votes

Hexdrinker + Null Orb = Zero chance to burst them at any stage of the game. Especially since Null Orb scales off of offensive stats.

Sraeg2013Sep 27, 20171 votes

Hexdrinker (and later Maw) is more than capable of completely tanking a lot of magic damage ultimates on its own.

Now double the shield.

Are you really telling me that effectively removing at least a quarter of somebody's damage is nothing?

XenomancersSep 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yeah and that bullshit Rune Nullification orb is just gonna ruin mages even more, Seriously. a Hexdrinker shield as a rune?! That is another kick in the balls to mages.

is it one time use like the 1 time zhonyas active rune?

Darkdemon653Sep 27, 201715 votes

It's something that's been going along with increase in CDR. For whatever reason, Riot doesn't like burst, so they made mages' damage lower, but more consistent. Unfortunately, the entire point of the majority of mages is to instantly delete a squishy target (or multiple). As a result, mages have been shit for a long time.

LiteUpSketchersSep 27, 20175 votes

If they don't like burst, why are Kog and Twitch a thing?

(my favorite assassins)

Mister SupportSep 28, 20171 votes

Plenty of mages have consistently been at the top of the winrates for mids though. Orianna, Syndra, Anivia, Malz, Taliyah, LeBlanc, and Kassadin were all fairly stable for long periods of time as good mid picks with high win rates.

ParoeSep 28, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frost Fae,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k9oAyZOG,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2017-09-28T04:21:26.958+0000)

Plenty of mages have consistently been at the top of the winrates for mids though. Orianna, Syndra, Anivia, Malz, Taliyah, LeBlanc, and Kassadin were all fairly stable for long periods of time as good mid picks with high win rates.

Orianna: Zone control and very high burst Anivia: Zone control and very high burst Malzahar: Anti-snowball and transitional support Leblanc: Extremely high burst and snowball Kassadin: Anti-syndra and transitional assassin

They were picked because of their capacity to do a job in a specific comp or against specific meta champions. They are not generally meta compared to things like lee sin, vayne, and ezreal.

Mister SupportSep 28, 20171 votes

You only helped my point though, because what I was responding to was that mages have been shit for a long time due to lack of burst when thats not true at all as scene by them constantly holding win rates highest for mid. And you then point out its due to the burst that the other guy claimed as nonexistent.

ParoeSep 28, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frost Fae,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k9oAyZOG,comment-id=00040000000100000000,timestamp=2017-09-28T17:20:35.377+0000)

You only helped my point though, because what I was responding to was that mages have been shit for a long time due to lack of burst when thats not true at all as scene by them constantly holding win rates highest for mid. And you then point out its due to the burst that the other guy claimed as nonexistent.

Compared to marksmen they arent as attractive and their damage is much more icing on the cake. Theyre picked for their zone control first and foremost. Also, i was stating why those champions were meta for awhile; they have a specific purpose. I wasnt proving anyones point.

FairyfleurSep 27, 20172 votes

You're right, but mages have not been garbage at all.

EmbalancerSep 27, 20173 votes

Riot has always hated mages you can tell that by depth in itemisation that AP characters have compared to AD characters

SSJTribeSep 27, 20171 votes

you forgot your /s

VekknaSep 27, 20171 votes

No, he just forgot to add "since the end of season 5." AD items were boring as fuck before then.

VekknaSep 26, 20177 votes

If you compare the ratio by cost per gold from NLR and BF, you get an AP:AD cost ratio of 1:1.56.

EDIT: yeah, the new masteries favor AD, but not to the same extent as the S7 keystones.

RedCycloneSep 27, 20176 votes

I didn't go too hard on the math, just noticed that it is nowhere near as equalized then it should be

VekknaSep 27, 20171 votes

At least it's not as far off as the original DFT, which was 1 : 2.4 when it should have been 1 : 1.56.

Sire HippingtonSep 27, 20171 votes

dft and the likes were a slightly different thing though, as it dealt magic damage and APs can be expected to get magicpen while AS's won't. 1:2,4 still was a bit excessive, but going a bit higher than the standart ad-ap ratio was valid.

WalkingInACircleSep 27, 20172 votes

How exactly does cost ratio of 1 to 1.5 become a 1.25 to 1 scaling?

VekknaSep 27, 20171 votes

You don't. I made an error.

AtanchanSep 27, 20177 votes

It's never been 2:1, actually.

In fact, at the start of season 1 it was 1.9:1, pretty close, but dropped to 1.8:1 later in the season, dropped to 1.65:1 in season 3, then finally settled to 1.6:1 in season 5. So, yeah, the ratio of value per AP:AD hasn't been all that close to 2:1 for a long time.

Still, it's undeniable that the ratio for runes is a lot lower than the ratio for items. I do find it pretty peculiar, honestly.

It may be a WIP thing, in that a large amount of abilities with AP ratios are just flat-out getting an increase in base damage that hasn't happened yet.

EkyonKunSep 27, 20172 votes

What's funny is that if you consider AP = 21.75 gold and AD = 35 gold, it'd make more sense to have the ratio of Rising Storm to be 8 AP to 5 AD. They're nearly identical in price. I'm really hoping they realize this and lower it from 6 AD to 5 AD, but I have my doubts.

junglerboy16Sep 27, 20172 votes

Hinting at incoming blanket AP ratio buffs?

No?

Guess I'll put those darn mages away...

Ariel the CruelSep 27, 20171 votes

Just bring them down to ~~bot~~ Support lane. We accept all rejects! . . .Apparently.

TimX24968BSep 28, 20171 votes

mage "support"

if you don't get sightstone, at least get deathcap.

Ariel the CruelSep 28, 20173 votes

We also except tanks kicked out of top lane/jungle. Nautilus Maokai TahmKench Shen Meta Slave ADC's. Ashe MissFortune I'd guess most mages have been down here at least once. (>_>) ~~A summoner spell~~ Some junglers. summoner 11 Nunu Singed Rengar Heck, we've even had a trick Juggernaut or two! Illaoi Mordekaiser Darius

The only ones people don't want down here, or anywhere else for some reason, are the actual supports. (T_T) Janna Lulu Soraka

So come on down. The water is kept nice and warm by all the support players' repressed rage. XD

EDIT: Oh, we also have a very active community of auto-fill trolls here too. So no matter what you play, you'll find friends. . .

Whiteeye AvelynSep 28, 20171 votes

Nautilus , Maokai , Shen They are all still good top laners, People on the boards most think viable means the only champion for the role cause this has been echo'ed a lot lately. Also Maokai is still one of the best junglers in team play.

Ariel the CruelSep 29, 20171 votes

No sane person plays Ashe, MF, Singed, or Darius support right now. I was merely snap-shoting champions that have historically migrated down there.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 27, 20172 votes

It wasn't even close to 2:1 last season.

KloqdqSep 28, 20172 votes

Well you got to bloat the AP stats of course. Every mage needs to be a semi-tanky spam bot with infinite mana that has slightly above average damage. All mages just want HP, Mana, AP and CDR so let's take away AP from every item to give them more HP, Mana and CDR.

RexxieeSep 27, 20171 votes

Ever thought that certain ruines are supposed to be better for a certain damage type?

Ez dePazSep 27, 201710 votes

Well this rune is in the sorcery tree, so it would make sense if it where better on mages.

SohleksSep 27, 20172 votes

Sorcery runes seem a bit op. What carry wouldn't want 100 extra ad at 40 minutes for their crits just from their off spec runes? Time bome runes. Just from two offspec. What other two minor runes gives such power? You can't rune 100 ad at level 18 today let alone with just two off spec runes. Not missing out too much from other runes.

On the other hand precision mainspec runes seem a tad weak. Overheal seems average or slightly above and the tenacity is not bad for frontliners dabbling in precision.. for some reason?

The wolf hunter keystone in domination will probably be ultra meta for any sort of roamer or engager. Resolve runes. They might be fine but they're a bit turtle-ish that I think tankies will forgo them to take advantage of the movespeed/utility/cdr stuff while building tough with their items. Wolf does have a large cd tho.

FairyfleurSep 27, 20172 votes

How do you plan to get to forty minutes?

SohleksSep 27, 20172 votes

You don't need to. It still provides a bonus on the way. If you notice many runes are getting kill or time requirements... so the competition/tradeoff is actually pretty small. The fraction amount of games you do get there are so worth it You Just Have To Take It [for adc. all that ad with their multiplier stats]

Go put precision as the primary rune path to simulate adc. Then in off path find two runes that can compare to picking up sorcery's gathering storm and absolute focus. There's other decent sorcery runes too such as the MR shield which can help laning phase and transcendence might be good in essence reaver + black cleaver builds [Lucian].

Leech or biscuits might be nice for lane sustain. But it doesn't matter. The amount of free carry stats you will be sacrificing to pad your lane is just not smart. This is increasing an adc's attack damage by at least a quarter and with their great amount of stat multipliers crit/as/pen it'll be crazy. Giving up a near 100 ad that the enemy might have so you can have a bit of leech or biscuits in lane is just trolling. The only real serious option is to suck it up early.

Borrowing would be the closest kewl thing to compete in terms of a power advantage but it's only temporary power compared to free AD you'd literally cannot get otherwise.