The Zed compensation buffs made Zed worse to deal with while fixing nothing about his late-game

Barcid··102 votes·33,378 views

So for anyone who's played as Zed/with Zed/against Zed, you've probably noticed since forever eternity that Zed's biggest strength is his early game power, while later teams tend to have amassed items to deal with him and his ult. Zed was in a relatively weak spot this season compared to his other AD assassin compatriots since he couldn't quite abuse duskblade to its full potential while additionally still suffering from the usual issue of getting itemized against, with the added bonus of Stopwatch being a thing. The amount of ways to deal with Zed now are pretty numerous.

So Duskblade got nerfed, which, since it was so absurdly overpowered of an item (still is, it's cancer on the game and is basically the Morellonomicon of AD assassins), was an item that Zed relied upon despite the fact he couldn't even use it to its full potential. This means buffs to Zed, yay! (boo)

For those of you who don't know what exactly the particular buff was that kind of broke his laning phase, I'll gladly point it out to you:

#REMOVED: Damage being reduced on shurikens that hit the same enemy.

This buff is absolutely stupid. Not just absurd, straight up stupid that it would be allowed through.

So here's the damage his Q does as a base: 80/115/150/185/220 + 90% of bonus AD in physical damage.

To do the simple math: Originally, Zed hitting an enemy with both of his shuriken would do 150% damage - the original shuriken deals full, the second deals 50% damage. Okay, cool. The grand total to this combo would be 330 + 135% of bonus AD at max level. That's a pretty goddamn strong early attack, but it does require the effort of hitting both of his Q's, so arguably it's fair.

All right. Now let's calculate this asinine change.

#The buff to Zed makes this Q combo do 160/230/300/370/440 + 180% of bonus AD.

#Are you guys fucking high? Most ults don't do that much damage before level 2, usually even before level 3.

So during lane, fuckface Zed before hitting level 6 will be able to gank off about 300 and some odd damage of your health with really just about a third of his combo, and this is ignoring potential electrocute procs. We haven't even added in his E damage, either. The fact that this combo is entirely based on energy and Zed has no mana worries is really just the icing of the cake - it's basically try to dodge this combo for the rest of eternity mid-lane or you will get all-in'd.

#Past the misery that is trying to avoid getting blown up by Zed in lane as a mage, this buff makes absolutely no sense whatsoever as a compensation buff for Duskblade.

The reason this makes no sense is because Zed is going to usually be maxing Q long before he ever sees Duskblade, meaning Zed isn't getting his power spike at Duskblade anymore - he gets a fractal spike every single time he levels his Q, increasing his potential damage output by an absurd 70 points per level.

#What you've done is turned Zed into far more of a feast or famine champion, with an emphasis on the feast.

If Zed gets ahead in lane, his damage is quite literally unmatched - seriously, no other champion deals over 440 damage on one basic ability (besides Zoe, and we all know just how much we adore her). So champions who scale off of items better rather than just off of their bases are doubly fucked - not only can they not stand against Zed to begin with, but Zed now has items on top of them that exacerbate his power by comparison. It's the reason why Zed either goes 17/4 or 3/10: because on top of giving Zed his power earlier, it's now also more unreliable.

That's the idea of balancing it, right? That it's a bit more unreliable, which allows for "counterplay"? Except that it really just means that if Zed's ahead, he will just walk up to you and barrel stuff you with his combo versus trying to land it from a distance, and if Zed's behind then he's not going to be able to get close enough to land it without getting gangbanged. So if Zed's ahead, he's ahead for-fucking-ever - if Zed's behind, he's a complete liability to the team.

In the end: Nothing's changed other than you have just pushed Zed further into old Rengar status - he's fucking infuriating to have in a game because one side is going to suffer for it no matter what.

There are far better buffs you could have given Zed to compensate for the Duskblade changes - such as deleting Duskblade altogether and adding an item that isn't so fucking asinine and abused by certain champions so that you don't have to worry about balancing Zed around an item not even proper for him.

242 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir106 votes

Zed's shurikens already do reduced damage for passing through units, which the argument here conveniently neglects. If you're regularly eating clean double/triple shurikens from Zed, it's expected to be pretty rough for you.

My Waifu Vanilla24 votes

People acting like getting hit by a double shuriken before didn't kick you out of lane. I still think Zed is too safe in lane for being melee vs range and arguably having better pushing/all-in potential than most mages, but getting hit by 2 uninterrupted shurikens is asking to die pre or post buff Zed since chances are if he hits both he is GOING to all-in and ult you with ignite+electrocute meaning the buff didn't matter anyway since it will all most likely be overkill.

KoKoboto9 votes

Why SHOULD range have advantage over melee?? Why CAN'T a melee champion be a lane bully?

My Waifu Vanilla23 votes

Because all ranged has over melee is typically A) range (duh) and B) waveclear. Zed has both while also having all the caveats of being a melee champion such as high af base stats since he doesn't pay the "ranged tax" of getting garbage base armor/mr and movement speed. I would be fine with Zed being a lane bully IF he didn't have the waveclear and safety of just sitting back with shurikens and if NECESSARY getting free cs under tower due to his passive and being an AD champion. I didn't enjoy release Zed for a few reasons, but at least when it was better to max E first you HAD to use your shadow to farm from outside of melee range. Now he can just sit way back and snipe most of the creeps with Q if he isn't the dominant laner. No other melee champion has that level of safety in ranged versus melee and if they do their ranged farming ability WILL drain their resource over time whereas ONLY using Q as Zed means you will always have enough energy to do whatever you want and still have your shadow available if they try to punish you.

Nausicäa 11 votes

{quoted}

Zed's shurikens already do reduced damage for passing through units, which the argument here conveniently neglects. If you're regularly eating clean double/triple shurikens from Zed, it's expected to be pretty rough for you.

All i ever see RiotRepertoir do is defend the utterly stupid levels of damage creep and burst in this game. No wonder the game is in such a shit state with people like this at the helm.

Zed one of the highest ban rate on all servers. "Nah hes fine lets just buff the shit out of him" Kha'zix broken with a 90% ban rate on KR. "Nah hes fine, working as intended"

Its hilarious how the concept of counterplay has all but been abandoned by Riot. Apparently RiotRepertoir just wants all champions to one shot you instantly with minimal effort.

"Just stay 2 screens away from anyone with a gap closer or die, thats what counterplay is " - RiotRepertoir

RiotRiotRepertoir33 votes

More effective usage of direct quotes. I wish there was a way to sticky this.

Regarding what seems to be your concern here, I don't think Zed's recent changes show any disregard for proper counterplay principles. In fact, I think they actually increase Zed's counterplay, by putting increased relative importance into hitting multiple shurikens when playing him.

That said, Zed's damage could be higher than it needs to be. That's believable. We have been slowly buffing him up a bit lately because previously we felt he was on the weak side. If it's a bit too far, we'll surely know soon, and if that's the case, we can trim a damage number here or there. Either way, the increased counterplay is still there, regardless of his current exact tuning.

Nausicäa 8 votes

Im paraphrasing what is pretty clearly your underlying sentiment towards the balance of this game and utterly absurd levels of burst and damage creep from multiple of your posts.

What exactly is the counterplay to Zed with literally just a Serrated Dirk dropping me to 20% with just a W-E-q combo. Please enlighten me? Just stay a mile away from him at all times and dont CS?

When a champion whos assassination pattern is based around his ultimate for getting kills and yet is able to almost instantly kill you without it and not even fed??????? It used to be that you had to actually poke people down and then ultimate to get a kill with Zed, but now? Fuck it just W-E-W-q auto ignite for an instantaneous kill at level 5 when not even ahead.

EROTIC RAID BOSS10 votes

You have to dodge shurikens that's the counterplay

Vekkna3 votes

So when he Ws in to EQ+ignite at point-blank range, there just isn't any counterplay then?

Laceration5 votes

positioning is also counterplay, think hard about what that means

Vekkna6 votes

Instead of being a snarky bitch, you could describe the positioning. In my experience it means staying 1300 units away from him at all times unless you have a Zhonya's off cooldown.

AmazoX2 votes

{quoted}

Instead of being a snarky bitch, you could describe the positioning. In my experience it means staying 1300 units away from him at all times unless you have a Zhonya's off cooldown.

Gosh just play Zed yourself vs any other Zed main playing a mage.

You'll realise how easy it is to beat Zed when his W is on a CD or when his used Shuriken.

Vekkna5 votes

Gosh, still incapable of dropping the bitchy attitude and answering what should be a very easy question.

Ellodere mid2 votes

He has a point though. You should definitely try out Zed and see his weaknesses, instead of complaining about Zed with surface level knowledge you should really get into the niddy griddy details before making a statement.

Vekkna5 votes

What statement? I asked a question in response to a statement. If dodging is the counterplay, then where is the counterplay if Zed can reliably get in close/point-blank range? At that point, it's more about Zed missing than his enemy reactively dodging.

It's possible for Annie to whiff her flash-Tibbers, but that doesn't mean you dodged it, or that it's reasonable to go around telling people that dodging Tibbers is legitimate counterplay.

One thing I do know from having played Zed, Zoe, Blitz, Leblanc, Ahri, Syndra, Lee, etc. is that I miss skillshots against immobile champs at short range because I miss them, not because the enemy dodges them. If I'm low-skill on those champs and do poorly with them, the lesson is that they can be difficult/risky to play, not that they're inherently easy to play against. See the distinction there?

So again, the logic is simple. If the counterplay to Zed is dodging his shurikens, doesn't Zed remove most of his own counterplay by having two gapclosers (or one very long gapcloser) that make dodging extremely difficult (if not impossible) to reactively dodge without a flash?

That's not an issue that's unique to Zed, but Riot has taken steps to address it on other champs. Examples are Fizz ult scaling with distance, Leblanc changes on PBE to move power out of E, shifting power from Zoe's Q into W and passive, and removing Tracker's so Lee can't always Q at close range.

Beyond all that, I actually enjoy playing assassins (even if I suck with them, Kat is still one of my favorite champs to play) and want them to be better, not worse. Super high ban rates, oppressive early games, and late game irrelevance aren't particularly enjoyable for anyone involved. Most assassins' win condition is closing out games early, but assassins often rely on their teammates to press an advantage after securing a kill. They're at the mercy of matchmaking and meta more than most (or all) other classes, and I think that's completely unfair.

Hibeki10 votes

Dodge the skill shot =/= adequate counterplay.

By that philosoophy a 10k true damage skillshot is balanced because dodging

ChuShoe11 votes

Which was also the philosophy of Zoe 's release kit, and that was shot down only a while after she came out.

BLIGHTBRINGER3 votes

Well yes that's easily said then done when he has 2 dashes (W, and R) R bringing him directly to your location. Where he can cast E and Q at the same time, keep in mind his E slows for a lot meaning that if you want to dodge his Q you have to play a champ who has a dash or you if the champ that you are playing doesn't leaves you to just summoner 4 when he gets behind you.

My Waifu Vanilla14 votes

use W-E-W-R to kill at level 5 Something isn't adding up here.

THE RlVER KlNG5 votes

but you just straight buffed him thats the issue here. by 'putting increased relative importance into hitting multiple shurikens' (which isn't really that hard to do to be completely honest, anyone can hit two off an ult), you just straight up increased his damage by a lot. duskblade got rightly nerfed after being dominant for a super long time, and its users did not need compensation buffs. the item was just broken.

they guy above is being belligerent but people are wondering why you gave all these ad characters massive buffs (zed most of all) when duskblade was just fundamentally broken and people who could abuse it were just over performing at a lot of levels. sure, maybe a couple like wukong needed a small ration adjustment on q or whatever to compensate but overall ad assassins did not need these big buffs because it was duskblade that was the issue.

in a similar vein, plenty of adcs are just fine. its their itemization thats busted and needs nerfs, and the marksmen class doesn't need compensation buffs once you get around to finally nerfing their items.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

Because those champions were not overperforming even with an op duskblade. If you nerfed duskblade and made no changes to the champions they'd drop to like 45% win rate

Those champions absolutely needed compensation

THE RlVER KlNG4 votes

no they didnt

just because an overpowered item is nerfed doesn't mean the champs that abused it need buffs

say we didn't get the ap item update and morellonomicon just got nerfed instead. that would be like saying because of that, every mage needs massive buffs.

UpDownLeftRightAB5 votes

{quoted}

Regarding what seems to be your concern here, I don't think Zed's recent changes show any disregard for proper counterplay principles. In fact, I think they actually increase Zed's counterplay, by putting increased relative importance into hitting multiple shurikens when playing him.

I honestly think you are wrong... completely.

He is a resource-less champion, he can just throw out shurikens with very little concern for hitting or missing. It increases his zone control and lane pressure, two very important things when it comes to winning early. Sure, if he misses hitting both shurikens one time, you've "counter-played", but he can do it endlessly and that puts the odds very in his favor that they both will connect multiple times.

This is what I will dub, "Just dodge the spear" Fallacy of League design.

Handin Out Naps4 votes

Q is a 6 second cd w is a 22 second CD. He is melee, when he uses them abuse him while they are down. And no he cant just spam q off cd at you because he needs it to cs from range aswell. Stop complaining that there is no counterplay and move forward and hit him. Abuse his cooldowns thats how laning works.

UpDownLeftRightAB8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Handin Out Naps,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k6XY8tHe,comment-id=00140002000000040000,timestamp=2018-04-11T22:19:40.536+0000)

move forward and hit him

You realize he can walk away, right? He's not going to just stand there, these champions are played by people. It's called wave management, he doesn't HAVE to last hit with Q, that is an OPTION.

Handin Out Naps2 votes

Yes he walks away and misses minions. That's a win btw. He is melee you push him off the wave with your range and get a lead that way. If he isn't last hitting with q, you aren't pressuring well. Why do I get the feeling that all the people complaining about Zed just dont know how to lane properly.

NineTailedMystic3 votes

So he last hits with Qs which end up pushing the wave towards him because you're last hitting more minions. Then he gets under tower where he has the free-est CSing known to man and if you try to harass under tower you're vulnerable to ganks or if they're a good zed, an all in.

Handin Out Naps1 votes

It depends most of the time q is going to end up hitting multiple minions in order to reach the one you want to last hit. Also you can just straight up last hit too, but people lack the patience for that though most of the time. Also your main objective in this meta is to just push and try to control vision or find roams, you dont really need to be wasting much time trying to harass Zed under tower when you can make shit happen on another part of the map

NineTailedMystic3 votes

I meant straight up last hitting. Because if Zed is relying on Q to last hit, he's missing CS which means a longer life time for your minions even if he does hit more than one frequently.

EROTIC RAID BOSS4 votes

Huh but that early into the game he's also got to melee to do most of his csing. Gives you a lot more opportunity to poke him down and force a recall. So pre lost chapter you might run room, but he's more likely to run low on hp than you

UpDownLeftRightAB2 votes

He doesn't have to go completely ham early? I don't understand when people assume that the Zed himself is incapable of dodging skill-shots and playing safe like everyone else. Sure... just saying poke him down completely ignores the Zed having any brain power at all, granted, this is League so that could be true for many players. If you play around your item and level power-spikes, it is definitely easier to play Zed than a lot his competition. That's what makes the top tier champs top tier.

EROTIC RAID BOSS3 votes

zed has a fairly safe lane phase for an assassin, buuuuut its still a bit less safe than playing most mages, since he has to melee a lot early game to farm. this means you have opportunities to punish him when he wants to farm, or he has to give up farm. this is why I don't think its a big deal he doesn't have mana.

I mean when have you ever lost lane to zed because he 'outlasted you' and you had to back and he could just stay and continue farming with one sword? its not realistic.

flibitydoo7 votes

yeah actually

longsword+3 pots means he has a good 450 hp to work with (compared to your 300 assuming you went dorans ring+2 pots).

and the logic of "well he's melee and has to last hit", look if you are a ranged champion that isn't named caitlyn in the mid lane, there's a fair chance that you stopping to auto him means he lands an easy Q that easily hits you back for much harder. Even if it goes through minions.

My Waifu Vanilla3 votes

Especially since autoing him draws creep aggro while him qing you doesn't.

HaIlMonitor5 votes

Unless if I am wrong but shouldn't he and most other assassin be treated the same as Rengar? They are supposed to be harder to play so it would make sense that the average playerbase would have a lower winrate, but the main would have a high winrate. Which according to 3rd party data it seems like his playrate is high, his winrate is high (plat +) and it doesnt really look on league of graphs like mains winrate is that high compaired to the average pleb?

Based on that it seems like his mains dont really stand out and he is just "overall strong". I would almost compare him to Orianna at this point.

Laceration4 votes

Love you @RiotRepertoir I think i'm going to put your comment as my new wall paper

WitchQueen Annie10 votes

and that's how its supposed to be...

Zed is SUPPOSED to be this absolute badass antihero on the Rift who just DESTROYS in the hands of dedicated mains (those who devote themselves to the Shadow Arts). He's supposed to fall off late but be a bit of a dice roll early on (albeit a dice that can be calculated and better cast by those skilled in the shadows).

He's SUPPOSED to be this early game threat. You're supposed to be tested when playing against him. I like that.

Seviel Vorose56 votes

I'm sorry? His poke range and damage paired with 0 costs whatsoever is just stupid and has nothing to do with skill. He'll eventually hit it, and when he does, he can just W and R for the kill.

WitchQueen Annie6 votes

he's the ultimate skill champ

the shadows allow for outplays, the W has to be aimed on a 20+ second cool down... you have to learn how to play against all of the abilities that counter your Ult (Taric Ult, Kayle Ult, Lulu Ult, Xayah Ult etc); and you have to decide when to go in and when not to etc

Nyarlathοtep22 votes

Asol would like to have a word with you.

Yaśuo Main4 votes

wait is that a joke? i cant tell honestly

saltran22 votes

This is the moment to make a Yasuo mains joke

Yaśuo Main2 votes

why tf did i get instantly 2 downvotes?

MuffledGarbage13 votes

people thought you were sarcastic?

Yaśuo Main2 votes

man, i didn't even state any sort of opinion and I'm already being drilled into hell. classic

Phil Fly11 votes

Kinda what you get for having that name lol

Nyarlathοtep10 votes

No its not. With asol you have to manage mana cds, his range in order to deal the max possible damage while also dodging skillshots. You have also to manage your psyche since you have to always remind yourself that if someone goes into your nono zone and both your flash and ulti are on cd there is absolutely nothing you can do.

Yaśuo Main2 votes

isn't most of that not A.Sol exclusive?

Nyarlathοtep11 votes

Oke let me phrase it a bit better.

With asol you have to manage your stars in order to deal any sort of damage. But since in the game you will have to walk around a lot (either to chase or to evade shit) increasing this task (of dealing dmg with your stars) by a shitlot. His range also is medium (putting him at danger dealing with skillshots that he evade and aa that he cant evade) at best and unlike most mages his burst is low unless he is fed ( and excluding his ulti). Furthermore his nono zone is the place where his stars cant hit anything. And since you cant double tap his q the only saving grace from this situation is an ulti or a flash.

Bonus difficulties with asol. He cant hide, he cant duel (unless fed) cc hurts him even more than most mages and finally shitty as late game compared to other mages.

General difficulties, on top of that he has to manage mana costs and cooldowns.

Masala Chai2 votes

I really don't understand the idea that Aurelion Sol takes a good amount of skill. Aurelion Sol breaks even after around 5 games on him, and then it only goes up from there to around 60%. I think this in due to the fact that Aurelion Sol doesn't really have an interactive laning phase since his stars will often cause the wave to just flat out sit on your face before you can even reliably retaliate against him. Like Apdo said, Aurelion Sol is really an extremely strong champion that can allow skilled players to flat out beat more skilled players just do to his wavecontrol with Corrupting Potion and the near impossibility to establish lane priority if the enemy Aurelion Sol knows what they're doing.

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