Shen could really use a rework, Riot.

Canastus··64 votes·5,216 views

I'm not sure how many times people already asked for this but when are you finally going to do some work on Shen? At this point he's just another relic from ancient times, not only visually but also mechanically. If you'd like a more insightful explanation on why he needs a makeover, I recommend reading this thread.

You absolutely need to get rid of his redundant ap ratios, there's really NO room for that in his build. You need to make his shield(s) scale with hp, he also needs more damage (make his Q a skillshot with 2 charges, one for each blade) and finally give him some free magic resistence per level, for god's sake. He also requires at least 345 movement speed, 335 doesn't cut it. You definitely need to reduce his cooldowns (or energy costs) to enable him to use his full rotation, because right now he's almost unable of doing so without hitting his godawful E.

The hitbox for his Shadow Dash is far too inaccurate and the punishment for missing it is just too great, especially when your opponent is capable of simply jumping away. Give him some stealth or just get rid of the taunt entirely, it doesn't fit with his theme anyway. Why not make it a multiple dash ability instead along with a sub-passive that allows him to dodge attacks? I'm sure you'd be able to come up with far greater ideas if you actually tried.


Now let me explain you what Shen's greatest flaws are.

Playing Shen pretty much means that you're NOT going to win the lane since you'll never be able to outpush the lane opponent, nor will you ever be able to kill them with your pitiful damage. Most of the time you simply get forced back to your tower since Shen is unable to win any matchup in the long run due to his strictly defensive nature. Probably the biggest reason why this champion performs so badly (47% winrate) is his overrated ultimate which apparently justifies all the others weaknesses in his remaining kit.

Shen only exists to blow his global shield on a single teammate every 2-3 minutes and that's it - it doesn't even protect himself thus leaving him extremely vulnerable during the channel. He serves no other purpose at all. And pray to god your teammate takes the initiative, because most of the time they'll simply run away during the cast thus making your ultimate entirely pointless. Congratulations, you just left your lane for literally nothing while your opponent gets another xp and cs advantage.

Very rarely does his appearance make a difference since his Shadow Dash is far too impractical to use which makes him pretty much useless after both his E and R are on cooldown. Shen is far too dependent on high level communication to actually work, something which you'll most likely NOT find in a solo queue game. Right now there's nothing redeeming about playing Shen compared to every other tank or bruiser in this game. This absolutely needs to change, Riot.

77 Comments

JungHai019 votes

I don't play ranked, so disregard my opinion if you wish. However, I play Shen a fair bit, so I'll give my two cents.

Yeah, he is a bit outdated. He doesn't need a rework as much as other characters in the game though.

Playing Shen pretty much means that you're NOT going to win the lane since you'll never be able to outpush the lane opponent, nor will you ever be able to kill them with your pitiful damage.

Shen actually does pretty well in lane if you play him right. He's not like a Darius where you want to constantly bully the other guy. He's not trying to burst down your enemy laner. You want to slowly grind away at your enemy, especially if they don't have any built-in sustain. Trade a little, heal. Trade a little, heal. You can get kills, just when the enemy is at a lower health than if you were playing someone a little more offensive.

Shen only exists to blow his global shield on a single teammate every 2-3 minutes and that's it - it doesn't even protect himself thus leaving him extremely vulnerable during the channel.

If you are ulting in places that'll get you CC'ed, you need to back up a little more before you ult. Yes, you can't make split-second decisions like that, but you can try to predict what's going to happen, or if people are warding you might get some advance notice of things like jungler ganks.

Right now there's nothing redeeming about playing Shen compared to every other tank or bruiser in this game. This absolutely needs to change, Riot.

Shen is different from your classic tank. (i.e. Amumu or Sejuani) He's not supposed to initiate fights. He's not a huge CC threat. It's more like Skarner or Mundo. Not an initiation threat, but a very tanky tank, and can peel a little.

Big Bang Bob5 votes

As an avid player of Shen top, I can agree with this.

Rew7113 votes

As an avid player of many champions I agree with you and him but I also wish for Shen to get some buffs.

He has little sustain, sorry to say, than most other tanks since his Q is apart of it as well as his W. He only gets a bonus heal of 1.2 for 2 seconds... and killing a minion is worse. His W doesn't even show any significance in reducing his passive. His passive is also weird since you want to build AS to fit with his passive and stop the large energy consumption with this counter if you can. Its that E you have to be careful with. It deals like no damage, yet it does taunt and reduce damage, its very peticular and can't be used on minions or monsters. Then, we have the R that makes me rather use Shen as a support rather than a top lane.

If you want to see the buffs I'd like to see, please visit this this link.

UPfreely2 votes

i agree fully, shen is great in lane, i cant make his teamfighting work though, land taunt or go bust

Silents4292 votes

As a Jungle Shen main I also agree he doesn't need a rework.

Visual update sure, Couple QOL fixes, and minor changes why not. But he doesn't need to get his kit reworked.

SyrupNWaffles1 votes

Yeah, I feel like Shen just trades some blows before healing back up with his Q. Q is also a good poking tool because you can stop opponents from farming while healing back up. The passive is also good for poking and last hitting creeps. As for the AP ratios, I agree that Shen needs a health ratio on the shield but I love going AP Shen if I can. Get Nashor's and something like Rylai's for the AP and health and I think you're fine. For the ult, I feel like it's a dilemma. Maybe save a teammate or possibly lose lane? And that God awful E, I would rather lower the cost and get no energy back as a reward rather than it is right now.

NemeBro8 votes

I've started playing Shen and find him really fun. That said, I do have two changes I really think are necessary:

Give his W % health scaling.

Increase his movement speed to like 345

It bothers me that, for example, Sion (a champ I also play) gets to have % hp scaling on his shield (that also works as a powerful % health damage attack), and walks much faster than Shen does, while also having a very long range ultimate that is similarly good at peeling and actually an amazing initiator that deals respectable damage.

Those two things alone would make Shen less awkward to play IMO.

As for an outright "rework", nah. Any notion that he should be made less of a tank and more of a ninja or that he should lose his taunt is stupid. He'd lose a lot of why people play him. His kit is basically fine.

flibitydoo7 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure how many times people already asked for this but when are you finally going to do some work on Shen? At this point he's just another relic from ancient times, not only visually but also mechanically. If you'd like a more insightful explanation on why he needs a makeover, I recommend reading this thread.

You absolutely need to get rid of his redundant ap ratios, there's really NO room for that in his build. You need to make his shield(s) scale with hp, he also needs more damage (make his Q a skillshot with 2 charges, one for each blade) and finally give him some free magic resistence per level, for god's sake. He also requires at least 345 movement speed, 335 doesn't cut it. You definitely need to reduce his cooldowns (or energy costs) to enable him to use his full rotation, because right now he's almost unable of doing so without hitting his godawful E.

He doesn't need more damage, his damage output is fine when compared to other tanks. I can EQ+AA a Jinx as Shen and do just as much damage as a Sion EQ. His energy costs are only punishing if you miss his E. and his QW are very spammable. Enough so that Trinity Force is a viable purchase.

The hitbox for his Shadow Dash is far too inaccurate and the punishment for missing it is just too great, especially when your opponent is capable of simply jumping away. Give him some stealth or just get rid of the taunt entirely, it doesn't fit with his theme anyway. Why not make it a multiple dash ability instead along with a sub-passive that allows him to dodge attacks? I'm sure you'd be able to come up with far greater ideas if you actually tried.

Shadow dash is a peeling tool. You use it to protect your carries, not to initiate and dive the enemy's. You can use it to pick an enemy who's out of position, but there are better things for starting fights.


Now let me explain you what Shen's greatest flaws are.

Playing Shen pretty much means that you're NOT going to win the lane since you'll never be able to outpush the lane opponent, nor will you ever be able to kill them with your pitiful damage. Most of the time you simply get forced back to your tower since Shen is unable to win any matchup in the long run due to his strictly defensive nature. Probably the biggest reason why this champion performs so badly (47% winrate) is his overrated ultimate which apparently justifies all the others weaknesses in his remaining kit.

You win lane Yorick Style when playing Shen. You are very tanky in lane due to Q giving you health and W blocking the enemies abilities (If they use mana, this is huge as it means that they cannot kill you before they run out of mana). You don't have to all-in the enemy at anypoint. You farm, shrug off harass, maybe throw some Qs at the enemy champion and walk out of laning phase with your core items. If the enemy was dumb enough to pick an assassin top lane, well it's gg. They can't snowball off of you, and you are built to tank them (and in teamfights, peel them). Also, IIRC, his winrate was a stable 55% during the adc meta. Right now it's on the low side because Shen doe not have % health damage.

Shen only exists to blow his global shield on a single teammate every 2-3 minutes and that's it - it doesn't even protect himself thus leaving him extremely vulnerable during the channel. He serves no other purpose at all. And pray to god your teammate takes the initiative, because most of the time they'll simply run away during the cast thus making your ultimate entirely pointless. Congratulations, you just left your lane for literally nothing while your opponent gets another xp and cs advantage.

His ultimate is a good ultimate. Stop trying to devalue it. It's a global shield that is huge; big enough that even the biggest of Death Mark's can't pop it. It also puts you next to the protected target after casting it, allowing you to Shadow Dash in and save lives. Again, it's not supposed to be an initiation tool. It's supposed to be a defensive- protect your teammates tool.

Very rarely does his appearance make a difference since his Shadow Dash is far too impractical to use which makes him pretty much useless after both his E and R are on cooldown. Shen is far too dependent on high level communication to actually work, something which you'll most likely NOT find in a solo queue game. Right now there's nothing redeeming about playing Shen compared to every other tank or bruiser in this game. This absolutely needs to change, Riot.

Seriously why does everyone I see on the boards whine about skillshots? Learn to predict where the enemy is going to be. If I see Kha'Zix walking towards my Caityn (trying to get within 600 units to jump), obviously I'm going to put my self between them and hold Kha'zix down while my Caitlyn blasts his face off. And why give a tank such excessive mobility (you also asked to give a tank excessive damage output too?), do you want some sort overloaded abomination of a champion that does literally everything the best? If my carries need seriousy protection, then Shen does it better than any other Tank. He's not an initiator, but the ability to swoop in globally and turn what could have been "an ally has been slain" into "an enemy has been slain" is what Shen does best.

ActualPain1 votes

{quoted}

He doesn't need more damage, his damage output is fine when compared to other tanks. I can EQ+AA a Jinx as Shen and do just as much damage as a Sion EQ. His energy costs are only punishing if you miss his E. and his QW are very spammable. Enough so that Trinity Force is a viable purchase.

Shadow dash is a peeling tool. You use it to protect your carries, not to initiate and dive the enemy's. You can use it to pick an enemy who's out of position, but there are better things for starting fights.

You win lane Yorick Style when playing Shen. You are very tanky in lane due to Q giving you health and W blocking the enemies abilities (If they use mana, this is huge as it means that they cannot kill you before they run out of mana). You don't have to all-in the enemy at anypoint. You farm, shrug off harass, maybe throw some Qs at the enemy champion and walk out of laning phase with your core items. If the enemy was dumb enough to pick an assassin top lane, well it's gg. They can't snowball off of you, and you are built to tank them (and in teamfights, peel them). Also, IIRC, his winrate was a stable 55% during the adc meta. Right now it's on the low side because Shen doe not have % health damage.

His ultimate is a good ultimate. Stop trying to devalue it. It's a global shield that is huge; big enough that even the biggest of Death Mark's can't pop it. It also puts you next to the protected target after casting it, allowing you to Shadow Dash in and save lives. Again, it's not supposed to be an initiation tool. It's supposed to be a defensive- protect your teammates tool.

Seriously why does everyone I see on the boards whine about skillshots? Learn to predict where the enemy is going to be. If I see Kha'Zix walking towards my Caityn (trying to get within 600 units to jump), obviously I'm going to put my self between them and hold Kha'zix down while my Caitlyn blasts his face off. And why give a tank such excessive mobility (you also asked to give a tank excessive damage output too?), do you want some sort overloaded abomination of a champion that does literally everything the best? If my carries need seriousy protection, then Shen does it better than any other Tank. He's not an initiator, but the ability to swoop in globally and turn what could have been "an ally has been slain" into "an enemy has been slain" is what Shen does best.

Ooh killem

Ariel the Cruel7 votes

I'm going to play devil's advocate here.


You absolutely need to get rid of his redundant ap ratios, there's really NO room for that in his build.

Support Shen likes his AP ratios. :/

make his Q a skillshot with 2 charges, one for each blade

It's a low cooldown team heal. It gives incredible sustain (especially combined with his shield). If they were to give it charges, they would need to either sharply increase it's CD or gut it's heal (the damage is low enough, I think its safe).

finally give him some free magic resistence per level

While I agree he should have it, Riot has already addressed this. They won't give it to him because of his high sustain and spamable shield.

He also requires at least 345 movement speed, 335 doesn't cut it.

I don't think he requires it, per say. But mobility sprint creep has been hell on him (and all older champs). It would definitely helps.

The hitbox for his Shadow Dash is far too inaccurate

The hitbox is roughly the size of (and located at) his head. So it's actually very accurate. Every successful use is a "head shot". (I couldn't resist.)

Give him some stealth or just get rid of the taunt entirely, it doesn't fit with his theme anyway. Why not make it a multiple dash ability instead along with a sub-passive that allows him to dodge attacks?

You'd throw away his only CC for a multi-dash? I see him being played even less after this, unless the change flat out breaks him.

Playing Shen pretty much means that you're NOT going to win the lane

Contrary to popular belief, the goal is not always to "win" lane. Sometimes it's simply not to "lose". Example: Braum top, or when Janna went Mid. Shen isn't strong solo, his kit simply isn't built for it. His use as a split-pusher is entirely dependent on his ability to apply indirect map pressure with his ult.

Shen is far too dependent on high level communication to actually work, something which you'll most likely NOT find in a solo queue game.

Bard , Janna & Kalista (Kinda)


He could use some tweaks / updates, I agree. But it comes off as you wanting him to be like a standard top bruiser (ala Renekton). Shen does have his niche. He used to be the tank support that was allowed to go top (given that, even now, support aren't allowed to leave bot lane). He's been nerfed out of viability for a long time now (they blamed his ult). Then he started going jungle and ganking the crap out of people, so they nerfed him again. The reason Shen isn't strong, is because Riot doesn't want him to be strong. He had his time in the sun, and they ended it.

BLU Medic3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k4VL2nN2,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-05-20T01:25:43.135+0000) While I agree he should have it, Riot has already addressed this. They won't give it to him because of his high sustain and spamable shield.

I know you're playing devil's advocate, but doesn't Riven get a shield and a dash in one spell that scales off 100% attack damage, which she buys 100% of the time that also costs no energy and in fact blocks slightly more damage, the only downsides being less time and a slightly longer cooldown? Would it be that painful to give Shen 0.3 MR per level or something?

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

You're only looking at her shield. They don't give it to Shen because of his shield and sustain. His Q gives a lot of health regen.

Just going off base values (counting 1.5% max base health): His Q at level 1 gives health regen of 22.932, at lvl 18 he gets 69.94. Roughly half of that is granted to any ally who attacks the marked target.

For reference: Heimer's base health regen (the highest in the game) is 11.005 / 40.8. (Also grants nearby allies 10-30 regen) Mundo's health regen (with passive) is 16.545 / 51.94 Fiora's with 1 stack of passive is 13.46 / 41.23; with 4 stacks (max) is 33.44 / 103.73.

To give a reference to how strong his sustain is, consider this: I do not have a jungler rune page. When I run Shen Jungle, I use armor Pen runes. Jungle currently has a reputation of being brutally hard. Despite this, I can do a full first clear with only 1 health pot (assuming gromp leash) and come out with near full health. I can finish all subsequent clears all the way up to lvl 18 using only a machette (his clear time does get significantly slower though).


While I agree that it seems odd that he doesn't get it when Fiora does, I also look at it from the perspective of Riot's reasoning. He has crazy high sustain to go with his shield. It's possible they don't want to overload his stats and make him an immovable object in lane (hello Braum); which he almost is already.

BLU Medic1 votes

True, true, but everyone else just buys lifesteal or health or whatever too. If you want sustain and tankiness, there's quite a few options available (AP tank sustain monster? Cho'Gath), many of whom have scaling magic resistance. Is a tiny weeny bit of magic resist per level too much to ask for?

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Is a tiny weeny bit of magic resist per level too much to ask for?

I'm inclined to say "no". Riot has said "yes".

As for item builds, it's hard to reasonably argue that one for or against. Riot's evaluation of item builds seems to be completely random. Sometimes, they go by it (Hydra Fiora), sometimes they don't (BotRK Vayne). I lean towards the inclination that they don't consider it a majority of the time. Partly because build diversity is a hard thing to account for fully, and partly because there are a lot of cases where multiple champions get nerfed or buffed as a result of their interaction with an item - rather than target the item it's self (Deathfire grasp, item 3714 Warwick , and Spell Vamp for the longest time.)

WarlockLaw7 votes

Do not touch Shen any more than number changes. His kit is perfectly fine and is one of the few champions whose kit perfectly matches their personality and lore. Shen is shown to be patient and watchful. He does not dive in headfirst recklessly nor does he ever do anything without intention. If he wishes his q to hit you it will. He cannot miss nor can it be blocked. When he sees an ally in trouble he can go to them, no matter where they are, as he sees everything. He does not win his lane by directly fighting and killing his opponent but by instead planning for a long fight. He pokes he cs' s he trades he heals. Then when the time comes he takes advantage of an opportunity. Maybe his lane opponent stayed too long, maybe they took one too many steps under his tower, maybe the mid assassin is diving a teammate under a tower, maybe the enemy jungler thinks they can invade without intervention. No matter the opportunity Shem will see it. And he will be there

Big Bang Bob6 votes

I would agree that Shen needs some work, but I'm not sure about a rework. I've managed do get some decent results with him. He can actually stand up to a decent amount of champs Irelia Riven Garen Nasus top lane. You just have to whittle them down.

Imo, what he needs is more late game scaling on his shield, the ability to cancel the teleport on his ult, and the removal of his ability to heal opponents by Q'ing jungle monster (why does he have this?).

I'm kinda afraid that if he's reworked, he'll lose the cool play style he has now top lane or not be able to top at all. :(

JungHai04 votes

Imo, what he needs is more late game scaling on his shield, the ability to cancel the teleport on his ult, and the removal of his ability to heal opponents by Q'ing jungle monster (why does he have this?).

This is exactly it. Not being able to cancel ult is so annoying.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

There's a hitch to that though. Shen applies a huge shield immediately on cast; in addition to the global teleport after channeling. Forcing him to follow through adds more risk to his kit. If he were made able to cancel it early, they would have to delay the shield or gut the ult some other way. I'd rather not see this happen.

JungHai01 votes

I really didn't think about that. Huh.

RecoiI5 votes

As a Shen main I completely disagree. I find that he handles most of his match ups extremely well. I also manage to "win" my lane plenty times. even if I lose tower first(Which usually happens because I'm affecting another part of the map. 90% of the time I do this early after 6, I will have teleport up and just get back to lane and fight it off). a jungler ganking for me is incredibly effective because of the taunt @ 2 or 4 depending on your jungler's route. Also if you are ANY good at him, being under tower is not a big deal for him as last hitting under tower is incredibly easy due to his Ki Strike and Q and usually provides ample oppurtunity to zone or bait them into tower range for a taunt.

Also just because he's a ninja doesn't mean he can't be a tank. I'm tired of people using the whole theme of a ninja to be a reason for a rework, when in all reality it has very little bearing in a game. If he's turned into an assasin, at this point he may as well get deleted, as we have enough of them and there isn't really anything new that could be brought to them.

As for the buffs you mentioned, they are exactly that, not a rework. While I would be fully supportive of the %hp scaling shield and ult. I think that would be about all he would need to become more viable as he is now. However even as is I believe he is a very strong champ especially in a game where teamwork is a major key to winning.

During season 4 he was my 2nd most played champ with 100 games during ranked play specifically(#1 being Ezreal with 111). Pulled a 56% season win rate with him, at one point I had it floating around 65-67% until the end of the season.

Happiest Girl4 votes

Ye

Canastus7 votes

Yee

BastionKross3 votes

Here's the thing about Shen, the summoner 12 buffs basically made him irrelevant. The whole reason you picked him was because he had a global presence. After level 6, he could be anywhere he needed to be. And that's strong as hell. Unfortunately with the recent TP buffs, -any- champion could have that global presence, on a similar CD, and actually bring more to a teamfight than a Shen ever could. There's no reason to pick Shen when everyone top lane is running teleport. His scalings are wonky, his damage output is pretty low considering it's single target and not AoE like most tanks, he's slow as hell, he can't initiate well, and he runs out of energy quite frequently. About the only thing you can do with him is be a bodyguard, but that's only when you have the energy to E and your R isn't on CD.

Basically the main problem with Shen is that now that TP is popular, any tank can do what he does, but better. That shows a problem with Shen's kit as a whole.

Silents4292 votes

Can other tanks other then Rammus use a taunt and force enemies to attack them?

Can other tanks dash over walls for more mobility?

Can other tanks throw a Q and allow him and his allies to heal off the target?

Can other tanks give a massive shield to an ally to keep them alive in fights?

No? Alright Shen works well then.

Canastus3 votes

Can other tanks other then Rammus use a taunt and force enemies to attack them?

Taunts are inferior to knockups, there's a reason why Riot has been giving almost every new tank or bruiser this form of cc. There's literally no counter to that, meanwhile taunts can be cleansed or shortened by tenacity.

Can other tanks dash over walls for more mobility?

If they can't dash, then they most likely have the ability to jump. The mobility creep is absolutely crazy in this game. Also blowing the E just for mobility makes Shen utterly useless once he arrives at the target since he loses his only form of cc. It also costs abnormal amounts of energy.

Can other tanks throw a Q and allow him and his allies to heal off the target?

The heal is overrated and falls off HARD later on, it's quite pathetic during mid to lategame. It only serves as a tool to sustain him during lanephase.

Can other tanks give a massive shield to an ally to keep them alive in fights?

The shield is ineffective if your carry already gets focused by the entire enemy team, 3 seconds just to make Shen appear takes far too long. Then there's the issue of using it during a teamfight, you're far better off with a champion who can blow his buff/shield on you instantly (that's the job of the support) while being able to continue the fight whereas Shen is basically removed from the game during those 3 seconds. His ultimate doesn't work very well when he's right next to the person he's supposed to protect.

No? Alright Shen works well then.

Shen's kit is a trainwreck and can't excel at any role. His utility would suggest him being a support, it's too bad that actual support champions are superior to him when it comes to utility or cc. He literally only exists for his ultimate, what a sad existence that is.

Silents4292 votes

Taunts are inferior to knockups, there's a reason why Riot has been giving almost every new tank or bruiser this form of cc. There's literally no counter to that, meanwhile taunts can be cleansed or shortened by tenacity.

Weird because tenacity was confirmed to be changed to affect knockups. And, no one takes clense, and how many people have tenacity? There are literally like 2 or 3 items with it.

It is also well established that as a tank, forcing the enemy to not only fight on your time, but focusing you is one of the best abilities to have. So I don't know where you pulled the information from where knockups are better then taunts on tanks, given more tanks don't have a knockup anyway.

If they can't dash, then they most likely have the ability to jump. The mobility creep is absolutely crazy in this game. Also blowing the E just for mobility makes Shen utterly useless once he arrives at the target since he loses his only form of cc. It also costs abnormal amounts of energy.

Yeah, we all know Nautilus Rammus can just hop a wall. Or that his E is on a what? 9 second cooldown? The only time his energy problem occurs when people miss everything and spam everything in a fight, Using just your E, your energy bar and E will be up and ready within 10 seconds.

The heal is overrated and falls off HARD later on, it's quite pathetic during mid to lategame. It only serves as a tool to sustain him during lanephase.

Really that's going to be your argument?

The shield is ineffective if your carry already gets focused by the entire enemy team, 3 seconds just to make Shen appear takes far too long. Then there's the issue of using it during a teamfight, you're far better off with a champion who can blow his buff/shield on you instantly (that's the job of the support) while being able to continue the fight whereas Shen is basically removed from the game during those 3 seconds. His ultimate doesn't work very well when he's right next to the person he's supposed to protect.

It's almost like, He has some sort of ability. To take the focus. Away from the carry. What could that ability be? And you don't play Shen enough if you have never been able to ult someone next to you and make great use, I have done it almost every game with him making perfect usage of it. Your failure at the champion isn't his fault.

Shen's kit is a trainwreck and can't excel at any role. His utility would suggest him being a support, it's too bad that actual support champions are superior to him when it comes to utility or cc. He literally only exists for his ultimate, what a sad existence that is.

Can't even comment on this, You know what is a trainwreck? Your post and suggestion for him, No one here agrees with you on it, no one ever agrees with other threads about his rework, because the only people that want Shen changed are the people that played a couple games and couldn't be a "ninja"

While the actual people who know how to play him know how well his kit works together and to use him to his fullest. If you can't see that or make him work then go find a new champion because turning him into a lame ass generic bruiser is stupid.

Caeler6 votes

{quoted}

Weird because tenacity was confirmed to be changed to affect knockups. And, no one takes clense, and how many people have tenacity? There are literally like 2 or 3 items with it.

Tenacity does not affect knockups and has never been stated or confirmed to.

It is also well established that as a tank, forcing the enemy to not only fight on your time,** but focusing you is one of the best abilities to have. So I don't know where you pulled the information from where knockups are better then taunts on tanks**, given more tanks don't have a knockup anyway.

Knockups are better than taunts on tanks because while someone is knocked up they can't take any action. They can't move, and they can't attack. Therefore they don't do any damage. A taunted enemy will still output damage regardless of whether or not the damage is reduced whereas a knocked up enemy will output no damage.

Yeah, we all know Nautilus Rammus can just hop a wall. Or that his E is on a what? 9 second cooldown? The only time his energy problem occurs when people miss everything and spam everything in a fight, Using just your E, your energy bar and E will be up and ready within 10 seconds.

I agree with you on this one. Most tanks are unable to get over walls very well.

Really that's going to be your argument?

Shen's heal is actually pretty balanced. The thing about Shen's heal is that when mid and late game come around, it's somewhat better for squishy teammates than tanky ones. It's most beneficial for the ADC because they are constantly attacking and don't have a huge pool of life, so every extra point helps them stay alive. Although tanks recover the same amount of health from Shen's heal as squishies, they do not make as good of use of the extra survivability as carries do because of their inferior damage outputs. This is partially negated by the fact that tanks will have armor and magic resist, resulting in more effective hp from Shen's heal than a squishy would get. None of this is necessarily a bad thing, and that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say that the heal's relative usefulness on an allied champion is what makes it balanced.

It's almost like, He has some sort of ability. To take the focus. Away from the carry. What could that ability be? And you don't play Shen enough if you have never been able to ult someone next to you and make great use, I have done it almost every game with him making perfect usage of it. Your failure at the champion isn't his fault.

You missed the point. The point was that Shen's ult has the downside of him being unable to take action for 3 seconds.

Can't even comment on this, You know what is a trainwreck? Your post and suggestion for him, No one here agrees with you on it, no one ever agrees with other threads about his rework, because the only people that want Shen changed are the people that played a couple games and couldn't be a "ninja"

Shen doesn't necessarily need a rework. He could use a couple buffs here and there. I could see him being a lot better with a % hp scaling on his W and slightly reduced energy costs on his E. His damage is fine for the type of tank he is, however, and though his cc is somewhat lacking, it still gets the job done.

Silents4291 votes

Tenacity does not affect knockups and has never been stated or confirmed to.

https://twitter.com/RiotMorello/status/573361985179545600

Here you go.

You missed the point. The point was that Shen's ult has the downside of him being unable to take action for 3 seconds.

And the times you would use it while vulnerable would be to save an ally who is about to die, as in them not focusing you, and if they waste CC on the tank well, they just wasted CC on the tank. Most occasions I have used it is after winning a fight and the cleanup part happens and the enemy tries to snag a cheap kill before getting murdered.

I wouldn't dare to say teleport makes him useless as the OP tries suggesting.

Shen doesn't necessarily need a rework. He could use a couple buffs here and there. I could see him being a lot better with a % hp scaling on his W and slightly reduced energy costs on his E. His damage is fine for the type of tank he is, however, and though his cc is somewhat lacking, it still gets the job done.

None of the mains have denied him needed a few number buffs, I suggested higher movement speed, and maybe HP scaling on his ult or W. Even still a lot of this comes from players being to afraid to build him outside of the meta tank builds, the results of item 3116 item 3060 item 3001 are wonderful, but no one picks them.

What we deny is when people keep proposing reworks with the assumption he shouldn't be a tank and instead be a "ninja" from players who have no idea how he works and then try explaining to people how he is "unviable"

Caeler3 votes

{quoted}

https://twitter.com/RiotMorello/status/573361985179545600

Here you go.

"We actually want knockups to be affected by Tenacity -** a likely change coming**" As in, tenacity does not currently affect knockups but may in the future.

And the times you would use it while vulnerable would be to save an ally who is about to die, as in them not focusing you, and if they waste CC on the tank well, they just wasted CC on the tank. Most occasions I have used it is after winning a fight and the cleanup part happens and the enemy tries to snag a cheap kill before getting murdered.

Think about it this way. If Shen has to ult his ADC, he freezes in position. His ADC and support are likely far away and retreating a little bit if the ADC is low. Since Shen is a tank, he is likely in the frontline taking damage. This means that, during the duration of his ult, he is basically free to damage without repercussion assuming the other two members on his team aren't keeping enemies off him which they probably won't be, especially if they're all trying to save their ADC.

I wouldn't dare to say teleport makes him useless as the OP tries suggesting.

The problem with Shen, in my opinion, is that he is a tank that lacks any real tanking ability. He has his shield and his E if he lands it, but that's it. He has no MR per level, his shield falls off hard if you don't have any AP, and his energy costs hinder his team fighting ability drastically. The only thing Shen brings to the table that other tanks don't is his map presence via his ult, which others are now able to compete with because of the buffs that teleport received some time ago.

What we deny is when people keep proposing reworks with the assumption he shouldn't be a tank and instead be a "ninja" from players who have no idea how he works and then try explaining to people how he is "unviable"

Thematically, a ninja should not be a tank.

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

"We actually want knockups to be affected by Tenacity -** a likely change coming**" As in, tenacity does not currently affect knockups.

Think about it this way. If Shen has to ult his ADC, he freezes in position. His ADC and support are likely far away and retreating a little bit if the ADC is low. Since Shen is a tank, he is likely in the frontline taking damage. This means that, during the duration of his ult, he is basically free to damage without repercussion assuming the other two members on his team aren't keeping enemies off him which they probably won't be, especially if they're all trying to save their ADC.

Thematically, a ninja should not be a tank.

Why do you feel Shen shouldn't be a tank, despite that being part of why people who play him enjoy doing so?

Caeler1 votes

I have no problem with Shen being a tank, but it makes no sense that a ninja would be a tank. Ninjas are generally considered to be quick and stealthy, which is completely the opposite of what you would expect from a tank. It would be like if Malphite or Nautilus looked like tanks (which they do), but were designed to be played as glass cannons. It just doesn't make any sense. I'm okay with Shen being a tank. I'm not okay with Shen being called a ninja when he is clearly not a ninja.

Silents4291 votes

"We actually want knockups to be affected by Tenacity - a likely change coming" As in, tenacity does not currently affect knockups but may in the future.

An honest miswording on my part, I remembered the quote differently, however as he has it written it pretty much will occur in then future. Even still how many tanks actually have knock ups?

Alistar Blitzcrank Braum Chogath JarvanIV Malphite Nautilus Sion MonkeyKing

Keep in mind now, a few of those only have a knockup as an ult, Some of them require multiple abilities, some require to be right next to someone. Obviously we have a lot more tanks without knockups then with, and while yes currently a knockup is going to do far more then taunting someone, Knockups tend to have a delay involved before they go off while a taunt is instant.

I have been able to completely save someone from death by getting a taunt off and preventing them from finish and AA on them, While with these champions we do have a longer delay before the knockup occurs, I would argue taunts and knock ups are situational and work better or worse depending on the situation.

Think about it this way. If Shen has to ult his ADC, he freezes in position. His ADC and support are likely far away and retreating a little bit if the ADC is low. Since Shen is a tank, he is likely in the frontline taking damage. This means that, during the duration of his ult, he is basically free to damage without repercussion assuming the other two members on his team aren't keeping enemies off him which they probably won't be, especially if they're all trying to save their ADC.

But you miss the point, either way your ally just got a massive shield given to them to keep them alive, If the enemy focuses you all the better, your ally turns and helps finish them off. And while I do think he needs the ability to cancel the damn thing, his ult serves its purpose incredibly well, especially if you are in a fight where your poor ADC manages to get jumped by a Zed, allowing you to step in quickly.

And yes he can take free damage but he is a tank and if they want to waste CC and damage so he can move a few feet then they are just crippling themselves.

The problem with Shen, in my opinion, is that he is a tank that lacks any real tanking ability. He has his shield and his E if he lands it, but that's it. He has no MR per level, his shield falls off hard if you don't have any AP, and his energy costs hinder his team fighting ability drastically. The only thing Shen brings to the table that other tanks don't is his map presence via his ult, which others are now able to compete with because of the buffs that teleport received some time ago.

And I do think his W needs to also have HP scaling with it, but I don't think has that much competition with other tanks, the ult giving an ally a shield is already a step ahead, but most tanks right now are jungling and they aren't going to have teleport in the first place to compete with shen who doesn't need to waste a summoner for it even when he is jungling.

Thematically, a ninja should not be a tank.

Thematically a lot of things in this game should and shouldn't be the way they are.

But taking game logic out, Shens lore depicts him as defender like he plays out in the game. I don't want to see him be anything other then a tank, because who actually wants another assassin.

Caeler2 votes

{quoted}

Keep in mind now, a few of those only have a knockup as an ult, Some of them require multiple abilities, some require to be right next to someone. Obviously we have a lot more tanks without knockups then with, and while yes currently a knockup is going to do far more then taunting someone, Knockups tend to have a delay involved before they go off while a taunt is instant.

Shen's taunt could technically be considered a delayed taunt as well though. His taunt is tied to his dash which means that it has a travel time/delay. Also note that most knock ups can easily hit more than one champion whereas Shen's is difficult to land because of its width and Rammus's only works on one champion.

I have been able to completely save someone from death by getting a taunt off and preventing them from finish and AA on them, While with these champions we do have a longer delay before the knockup occurs, I would argue taunts and knock ups are situational and work better or worse depending on the situation.

Knock ups are better about 95% of the time. They aren't reducible by tenacity but taunts are. Why would I want a taunt capable of hitting maybe two people at best on a very small hitbox with a reducible CC duration when I could have the CC that Sion, Cho'Gath, or Nautilus provide? Sion, for example, can not only knock you up with his Q, but he can also zone you away really hard even if he messes up and targets an incorrect area.

But you miss the point, either way your ally just got a massive shield given to them to keep them alive, If the enemy focuses you all the better, your ally turns and helps finish them off. And while I do think he needs the ability to cancel the damn thing, his ult serves its purpose incredibly well, especially if you are in a fight where your poor ADC manages to get jumped by a Zed, allowing you to step in quickly.

I don't disagree that his ult serves its purpose very well. I just don't think that Shen should be punished with free damage for doing his job unless he's on the other side of the map.

And yes he can take free damage but he is a tank and if they want to** waste CC and damage** so he can move a few feet then they are just crippling themselves.

Shen is a tank. He is at the front of the teamfight. ADCs generally target the closest targets to themselves and whittle them down as the teamfight goes on. The enemy ADC is not "wasting" their damage on Shen. Shen is probably the closest enemy they can attack without placing themselves in any danger. Fights are won with good positioning and zoning. Shen can do neither during his ult and is punished heavily for using it. Compare Shen's ADC to the enemy team's. His has to deal with being chased and potentially killed whereas the enemy's gets off free hits with no effort or risk involved. And since the enemy's ADC can basically right click and AFK, they're probably going to have a higher DPS than Shen's ADC, who has to balance attacking and staying alive.

And I do think his W needs to also have HP scaling with it, but I don't think has that much competition with other tanks, the ult giving an ally a shield is already a step ahead, but** most tanks right now are jungling and they aren't going to have teleport in the first place** to compete with shen who doesn't need to waste a summoner for it even when he is jungling.

I'll give you that one, but the point still stands for top lane Shen.

Thematically a lot of things in this game should and shouldn't be the way they are.

But taking game logic out, Shens lore depicts him as defender like he plays out in the game. I don't want to see him be anything other then a tank, because who actually wants another assassin.

I already responded to someone else about this, so you can read that below:

{quoted}

I have no problem with Shen being a tank, but it makes no sense that a ninja would be a tank. Ninjas are generally considered to be quick and stealthy, which is completely the opposite of what you would expect from a tank. It would be like if Malphite or Nautilus looked like tanks (which they do), but were designed to be played as glass cannons. It just doesn't make any sense. I'm okay with Shen being a tank. I'm not okay with Shen being called a ninja when he is clearly not a ninja.

In other words, Shen can either be a ninja or a tank. Having both wouldn't make much sense thematically. Someone else brought up that some of the stuff he does is somewhat ninja-like (distraction w/ E, appearing out of nowhere with ult), but his character design still doesn't match the real feel of a tank. But his appearance just doesn't match his role. Why does someone who looks like he isn't wearing any armor supposed to be way tankier than characters that actually do wear armor? A possible solution to this would be to change his appearance to make him beefier and add some armor to his clothing in order to make him actually look like a tank.

Alëk3 votes

I do feel that the width on his E needs to be expanded. That and his W getting %health scaling would make him truly viable especially in this tank meta.

WutsKraken2 votes

I don't agree with all your suggestions, but yes Shen needs some help. He's weak as a tank/bruiser, teleport meta made him almost completely redundant

The Blue Rajah2 votes

Just fix his walk animation. I've never seen such a derpy walk.

Original Quitter7 votes

You mean you don't walk with your Elbows pointing up at the sky?

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

No. They I do normally walk with my toes pointing out to the side; so that part is correct at least.

Quintastic2 votes

You'd think with their constantly making fun of him as "not a very good ninja" in the patch notes that he would be somewhere on the radar for a rework. Or maybe the boys at the office just really enjoy having champions in the game that are total trash for them to laugh at.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Ninja isn't his only theme. He's also part of the holy trinity: Akali, Shen, and Kennen. The 3 are balanced around beating each other in the standard class style. Akali (assassin) --> Kennen (DPS) --> Shen (tank) --> Akali . . . That's why he was made a tank. And he still does ninja'y things (Distraction, appear out of nowhere, and not die).

But yes, it's been a running gag since his release that Shen isn't a very good ninja.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

i agree on the rework - but please don´t destroy my AP-Shen.

Calibretto92 votes

Agreed with OP. He feels like a relic. Don't even feel like he's just outclassed in the current meta either - he's just weak plain and simple.

OneExit2 votes

As an all around Shen player I love your ideas for his re-work. and I sincerely hope Riot takes them into consideration.

TheDevice2 votes

he just doesn't feel like a ninja....... never has.

Original Quitter1 votes

I find I do well on Shen when built properly.

I think one of the biggest things that holds Shen back is the lack of people's ability to create anything other than a meta item build. Everyone is stacking HP on him with no AP and not using the tools in the tool box for Shen, they are just copying their typical I am an HP boat build they use on everyone else.

Shensummoner 11 summoner 12 item 3111 item 3717 item 3116 item 3075 item 3001 item 3083

Slap on some energy regen runes and some CDR.

When I run this build as JUNGLE shen I have acceptable clear times, and good damage output. I have 5k hp, and deal around 400-500 damage with Q+Auto every few seconds.

No it is not OP, it might not even be "strong" but Shen is about hidden strength. This build is nothing but hidden strength and you will find you do surprising damage over the course of the game.** I am not saying he doesn't need help but if you want to try something fun that is not complete trash in the mean time, there ya go. **

Silents4292 votes

I prefer getting item 3153 for my damage on him.

Vincent Lucius1 votes

Yes! I cry whenever I see someone without a scepter on Shen. And he's great in the jungle since it lets him have so much pressure even before six. If they push... that's a fun time if you can hit shadow dash. And the scepter lets him do damage, have health, and slow people in addition to strengthening his shield. I could deal with him having some higher move speed, though. And a visual update.

Shogunai1 votes

I play Shen support sometimes an he fills that role quite well. I would like if his cd on his ult would be reduced. I also agree with the point of his ult leaving him vulnerable so it would be nice if he would get some shield from it as well. Playing him in support role is a different view of him an I have decent success with him as a support, his taunt works well with that situation, he can also absorb quite a bit of damage. With good map present his ult can turn a 1v2 into a 2v2, or be used as a form of gank when your allies in other lanes are pushed against their tower facing death.

Jefftiffy1 votes

I'm not sure why everyone keeps asking for shen buffs. I have played him both support and top and have seen people wreck jungle with him. You build tank and a trinity and you are a god. I don't understand. Why does everyone complain about shen so much? Do they actually build him AP (I mean I bring AD because his AP really doesn't do much)

Plus hit kit is rather fluid and is pretty strong. I would much rather see Taric's or Poppy's rework happen over Shen's. Or even Swain's toxic ass.

Elphrihaim1 votes

Shen feels very much like a ninja.

Why?

His ultimate allows him to come from nowhere, to rush to a place that he isn't.

His E distracts-- perhaps the reason why it taunts is because Shen swipes something from every person ;)

He also does, really, feel like the defender of the kinkou, and I love this.

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