Reasons why Vayne is (arguably) too powerful now and does not have a weak early game

YumaS2Astral··98 votes·7,355 views

And this doesn't have to do that much with the tank meta. Being a "tank meta" was just one of the things that naturally favored her since she is supposed to be strong against tanks. But champions like Kog'Maw and Tristana are also good against tanks, yet they are not nearly as powerful and as popular. No, the tank meta isn't the main reason why Vayne is too powerful now. The actual reasons are:

  1. Every early game ADC and support was nerfed. Lucian Graves MissFortune Corki Sivir were all ADCs that have a very good early and/or mid game, and they were all nerfed. They could outbully and be stronger than Vayne during those stages of game and end it before Vayne could reach the late game. Supports that could poke and harass Vayne out of lane during the early game, such as Sona Karma Thresh Zilean Soraka, were nerfed too.
  2. ADCs that could scale just as well as Vayne into late game, such as Twitch Tristana KogMaw Jinx, were nerfed too. Therefore, Vayne has little competition. Even if she is not the most powerful ADC by late game (in terms of damage), she is the most powerful late game ADC (there is a difference) because she is the one who has the least weakness throughout the game. Her ability to self-peel makes her far safer than all other late game ADCs except Tristana, but Tristana does not have nearly as much damage as Vayne and has a way worse early/mid game.
  3. Riot, buffed item 3153. They buffed the on-hit % damage, they made it so that this on-hit damage now benefits from lifesteal, and they increased the range from this item's active. Since Blade of the Ruined King is Vayne's supreme core item, every buff to this item is a buff for Vayne.
  4. Almost every other ADC no longer rushes lifesteal items. Remember the time where ADCs used to rush item 3072? Now every ADC rushes item 3031 instead. The problem with this is that on the longer run, Vayne will outsustain other ADCs during the early/mid game because she can afford to build early lifesteal items without it hurting her damage due to her Silver Bolts and the AD steroid on her ult. She also doesn't need Infinity Edge to out-trade other ADCs, even if they have Infinity Edge themselves.
  5. Riot nerfed item 3143 and item 3110, which are the only defensive items with potential to reduce Vayne's overall damage. Attack speed reduction is the only actual counterplay to her Silver Bolts, as you can't counter with armor as it is true damage, but you can't counter it with HP because it is based on maximum health. But since it is an on-hit effect, you can counter it by reducing her attack speed, since you will reduce how often it procs. But as I said, Riot nerfed the only two attack speed reduction items that we have. Not only that, Riot removed attack speed reduction from a number of champions, that includes LeeSin and Gragas.

Due to all those changes, Vayne is now a monster. We can't say that she has a strong early game; but she is no longer as weak as people say that she is. Yet, she scales so damn well into mid/late game. This needs to be adressed. It is safe to say that Vayne needs nerfs. Either that, or buff every other late game ADC so that they can compete with Vayne, and/or buff the early game ADCs so that they can actually outbully Vayne, and/or add more attack speed reduction items/abilities so that we have better ways to deal with Vayne.

117 Comments

KONO RUBICK DA27 votes

You forgot one thing:

ATTACK SPEED PER LEVEL: 3.1 ⇒ 4.0 R - Final Hour 25/40/55 ⇒ 30/50/70

YumaS2Astral24 votes

{quoted}

You forgot one thing:

ATTACK SPEED PER LEVEL: 3.1 ⇒ 4.0 R - Final Hour 25/40/55 ⇒ 30/50/70

It's absurd that Vayne, a champions that already scale so well with attack speed, has her attack speed buffed, and other champions such as Tristana have their attack speed gutted.

I thougth that the rule was that if the champion has an extremely powerful on-hit effect or a powerful attack speed buff, this champion had to have a lower base attack speed to compensate. But Vayne breaks that rule.

Kuroi8610 votes

It's absurd that Vayne, a champions that already scale so well with attack speed, has her attack speed buffed, and other champions such as Tristana have their attack speed gutted.

Vayne doesn't have a 110% AS self buff and doesn't reach 699 range late game.

The only surprising thing is that Vayne has really good base AD for a marksman.

Finn Teh Human1 votes

Yeah she's so squishy and no range, that's why.

Chicken4dinner1 votes

You can toplane with multiple adc's but not vayne due to her incredibly short range

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

meanwhile lucian ... lower range than her doesnt get to outdo her in damage thou

outranged6 votes

{quoted}

You forgot one thing:

ATTACK SPEED PER LEVEL: 3.1 ⇒ 4.0 R - Final Hour 25/40/55 ⇒ 30/50/70

That change was pushed out in patch 4.13, which was released almost 1 year ago. I don't think it's really fair to bring that up when Vayne was arguably in a worse state than she is now back then.

Baughwssery2 votes

{quoted}

You forgot one thing:

ATTACK SPEED PER LEVEL: 3.1 ⇒ 4.0 R - Final Hour 25/40/55 ⇒ 30/50/70

Did you forget that the R was a tooltip change? The attack speed was a buff but the damage buff was always the same.

brad1 votes

{quoted}

You forgot one thing:

ATTACK SPEED PER LEVEL: 3.1 ⇒ 4.0 R - Final Hour 25/40/55 ⇒ 30/50/70

and you forgot the context to those changed :^)

SmokinSickStyle6 votes

She's been always my most hated ADC to face, i don't have a problem with many champs, out of 120+ champs i can count them on one hand, Vayne is one of them.

She has never had weak early, it's the other way around, it's other people's early that was stronger than hers, as soon as she hits 6, even with bilgewater cutlass she has has more AD than that ADC that got one kill and came back with with a BF sword, it doesn't matter how much she can do bad, as soon as she levels up some and get few items she proceeds to outdamage every ADC.

People bitch about silverbolts not being that damaging but they forgot that it's the total that counts, every 2s without CDR maxed out Q deals 50% of your total AD, that is further increased by her ult, which is one of the strongest and dumb steroids for an ADC that already has more damage than anything in this game.

I can take Kog being so strong in the damage side because he has no mobility and no selfpeel and he actually has a cooldown on his % damage, Vayne is instead a constant stream of pain.

She's so dumb that you can make a protect the Vayne teamcomp with supports like Janna simply because she has enough damage that you can afford to lose one or 2 people being damage dealers.

The only thing she doesn't have is a true HIGH ranged spell, then she would be truly the perfect ADC.

We could delete ADC class and just have her.

And honestly that guy that came up with uncounterable mechanic such as her silverbolts on a ranged champ is a massive well you get it.

2 times as dumb are Riot that still haven't changed her despite everyone knowing how unfun she is, right there with Riven .

Dasaru3 votes

I disagree with your sentiment. You're forgetting one crucial fact: That Vayne is one of the best 1v1 ADC duelists in the game. That's literally all she really has. She doesn't really have "spells" like other ADC's - She has to rely solely on her auto attacks to deal damage. Other ADC's really don't have that problem. If a Caitlyn, Graves, Corki, Lucian, Sivir, Ashe, etc gets zoned from a fight, they can at least use their ult or throw down some utility spells to help out. Vayne literally has to enter the fight in order to deal damage or she'll be useless. She can't put in damage for free. Nor does she have any meaningful utility to help the team out besides MAYBE her condemn if she uses it to peel for someone else (which is usually saved for self peel).

I don't really know what to tell you other than to stress again that her strong point is dueling.

She can't engage like an Ashe, Varus, Sivir, or Kalista can. She doesn't really have ranged poke like Varus, Corki, Kog Maw, Ashe, or Sivir. She doesn't even have that good of sieging power like Caitlyn, Jinx, or Tristana (due to their high range).

SmokinSickStyle1 votes

I mentioned what you said, that she doesn't have all the other fancy things such as true ranged skillshot as other champs, but some are not strong enough such as Lucians or Graves', I can agree on the rest, especially Corki that deals damage in everything he does in all kinds from phys to magical, the thing is, as the OP said some got nerfed to the point that their strengths do not matter anymore, for example Graves' Q no longer deals alot of damage from distance but needs to be much closer than before, Cait's Q doesn't deal damage later on.

The thing is that Vayne is "compensated" way too much for the lack of features that distinguish her from traditional ADC, that's why i mentioned a Vayne teamcomp, no other ADC can do this, and Vayne is enough slippery that with a good Janna or lulu, or even both lategame (but even midgame, she just needs 1 and half item) is an automatic win for your team.

If her strength is dueling you shouldn't be able to teamfight at all, where instead she acts as an ADC assassin that it doesn't matter if you have only single target damage, you kill anything twice as fast to be able to switch targets easily and it doesn't make any difference.

Moreover since she's single target only with that mobility and selfpeel that an ADC shouldn't have for the amount of damage she has, there's no true counterbuild, counterplay, this leads to her being one of the most antifun ADC where the only interaction is kill her before she kills you.

Kalista is partially on the same boat, but she deals way less damage.

I can dodge Varus spells, Ashe's ult, Corki's ult, Caitlyn's spells can be blocked, one by reducing the damage and the other by getting a teammate to completely bodyblock it, preferably a frontline tank that gets dealt very low damage.

I'm not saying it's impossible to deal with her, it's that she needs special attention if things get even a little bit in her favor, if strangely she gets fed early for some arcane reason and the guy playing her is half decent she can carry with her teammates literally serving her withouit enemies being able to do anything at all.

Ghi4 votes

[deleted]

YumaS2Astral3 votes

{quoted}

I personally don't have an issue with Vayne, but I do question the point of providing tanks when they can easily be melted by Vayne-------Too easily.

If you have a fed, full Tank and a fed Vayne, that amount of work that Tank put in to becoming unstoppable is pretty much worthless to her.

Indeed, but there are a number of other tank busters on this game. Vayne is by far the most effective due to other reasons that have nothing to do with the tanks.

JAGMAG1 votes

well its because as adc you have two champs that are tank busters.....vayne and kog (cait a little but not really) and out of those two vayne is way safer then kog at all stages even thou kogs late game damage is more its not so much more that its worth the safety trade off of a vayne

Sozan53 votes

I wouldn't say that Kog's late game damage is higher - unless you are facing tanks with no magic resist (rather uncommon).

Some imporant things to remember:

  • At 125 Magic Resist, Vayne W will always be stronger than Kog'Maw's W, as 8% of true damage is exactly the same as 18% of magic damage at that MR (and Vayne have additional 60 base damage).
  • With as little as 65 MR (that's basically flat MR runes + Aegis Aura), Vayne will outdamage Kog against targets with 2000 health and less (squishies).

So, in most realistic scenarios, Vayne will outdamage Kog'Maw. And it's important to remember that Kog W is a temporary buff, and without it Kog is really, really weak (500 range, no escapes adc).

The only thing that Kog have over Vayne is his range on W... But even that doesn't mean much, when Vayne have both mobility and self-peel.

Greedwalker1 votes

Hey, mathematic, didnt you forget to include every 3rd hit on same target proc her w? It can be used in such things as body-blocking at 2 stacks, etc. And, well, i also dont like vayne too much, but those ppls who first talkin about her uselessness now began to cry and pushing +++ for her being too OP are pissed me off.

Sozan51 votes

Of course I counted Vayne proc vs 3 Kog'Maw procs if that's what you were implying.

Body blocking can be used reliably only by Braum and champions with taunt. But I know what you mean. I was wrong. Kog have another few things over Vayne: the fact that he can change targets as he wants/needs to, his damage is instant vs stack based and he can utilize Runaan significantly better.

Now, I don't want to cry about her, but it's a fact that her early is way better than Kog'Maw's (who is an example of well designed hyper carry) and her late isn't any weaker (the damage difference - if ANY - is easily overshadowed by mobility and self-peel).

Also, during the various math I did (recently and not so much), it turns out that Draven's early is very comparable to that of Vayne (he will generally win only in very long trades) - but this is mostly due to the fact that Draven's early is overrated, rather than Vayne's being really strong (but she's not weak either - I'd say that she's a Hyper Carry with an average early).

JAGMAG1 votes

well a couple things it takes 3 procs from vayne to were kog has it for every auto combined with bork for every auto for a limited time plus kogs as is crazy thanks the his q passive and build so he will jsut melt a tank in a matter of seconds probably faster than vayne. ive played both champs kogs late game jsut seems stronger then vaynes vayne how ever is just a much safer champ and like i said earlier kogs damage is not so much better to make up for how immobile he is

Sozan51 votes

Kog'Maws attack speed isn't really all that crazy...

It's 0,665 +45,1% at max level. With W maxed it increases to 0,665 + 75,1% = 1,137 attack speed. In Vayne's case it's 0,658 + 68% = 1,105 at max level. That's not that big of a difference (A bit under 3% lower attack speed for Vayne).

And Vayne's does have higher AD too: 53 vs 49 at level 1, 109 vs 100 at level 18.

JAGMAG1 votes

kog thou is all about that %health damage on hit not 3 hits but on hit he deletes a few people backs off waits till its back comes and deletes a few more gg

Narasimha1 votes

The only thing that Kog have over Vayne is his range on W... But even that doesn't mean much, when Vayne have both mobility and self-peel.

I'd argue the opposite. Range is FAR more vital than mobility. It does no good to tumble around all over the place, when Kog can shred you before you can fire a shot back.

Naomi CoffeeGoat4 votes

What's with all the Vayne qq threads these days though in all honesty? I'm very curious. I hardly have problems with her and our laner ends up crushing her very often. I'm usually the one to upgrade my trinket to a pink ward to counter her in fights.

Diamondserpent4 votes

Because NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO TO HER, she will still become a late game monster if the game goes on for more then 30 minutes. There are just not ENOUGH defensive items and strategies against her.

JAGMAG1 votes

you realize that's the point right? same with kat or any other hyper carry if you dont end the game wile you have the advantage they will eventually scale and its your fault.

Godaren1 votes

{quoted}

you realize that's the point right? same with kat or any other hyper carry if you dont end the game wile you have the advantage they will eventually scale and its your fault.

don't bring up logic on a qq thread its dangerous

JAGMAG1 votes

ikr lol

TheI3igDaddy4 votes

Vayne's a popular champ, good luck persuading Riot to do anything while her fanbase cries in retaliation.

Godaren3 votes

{quoted}

Vayne's a popular champ, good luck persuading Riot to do anything while her fanbase cries in retaliation.

Don't quite understand this they had no problem nerfing warwick sejuani jinx katarina riven, leblanc annie when they were all at the top of the play rates

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

LeeSin

Godaren1 votes

{quoted}

LeeSin

he did get nerfed in s4 his w and his e

Jayce2113 votes

She isn't bad, just pick Braum or Naut as the counter support, they both stop her with ease with stuns. Braum can solo vayne up to lvl 6. And then depending on how you build braum after that is how long he can handle her. I have not had any problems with her as long as we use a counter support.

YumaS2Astral3 votes

{quoted}

She isn't bad, just pick Braum or Naut as the counter support, they both stop her with ease with stuns. Braum can solo vayne up to lvl 6. And then depending on how you build braum after that is how long he can handle her. I have not had any problems with her as long as we use a counter support.

Counterpicks matter much less on bot lane because you have to take into account the fact that there are two champions working thogether, instead of one. So even though your ADC can be a counterpick to the enemy ADC, the enemy support can make the enemy ADC win the lane regardless.

For example, even though Draven can be considered a "counterpick" to Vayne, if Vayne has a powerful early game support such as Leona or Nautilus and Draven has a weak, passive support such as Soraka, then Vayne will actually win that lane.

Win1Ocent3 votes

I main Draven , Vayne being the most popular champion right now benefits me greatly.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

teach me your ways i can't play draven at all i keep getting poked out of the lane by sivir

Silents4293 votes

Funny. Was a month ago people complained about Jinx countering every ADC. Wasn't far off from that people mocked Vayne for having a terrible early game.

All the sudden she is the second coming of jesus.

I Miss Cannon5 votes

Vayne and Jinx are both ABSOLUTE CANCER because they don't have an enough punishing early game for how strong they are mid and late game. And now look at Twitch and Kog'Maw: both late game monsters but ABSOLUTELY useless before they got 2 core items. And this is just retarded. If Vayne and Jinx are actually balanced like all the idiots say then please buff Twitchs and Kogmaws early to their level. Ty.

Totalis3 votes

This. This thread speaks the gods honest truth, plz listen to this man.

O Fallen Scholar2 votes

Kalista is more annoying than Vayne imo.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

Kalista is more annoying than Vayne imo.

Kalista deals far less damage. She only does relevant damage on extended trades. She is clunky early game and trying to chase her as a melee is like trying to chase a Singed or a Nidalee.

Kalista is surely poorly designed and has her strengths, but after recent changes I've found her to be far less annoying than Vayne.

KONO RUBICK DA2 votes

agree but kalista is still anoying and force counterpick

YossarianSensei2 votes

Vayne is a dualist, but that doesn't mean she outdamages other ADCs. People are still going to QQ about how OP '% max hp true dmg' is despite the math showing anything but that, but that's a whole other discussion.

In a teamfight, there are plenty of ADCs that are more useful than Vayne, I think it's fine that Vayne has her single target DPS.

Kanjou2 votes

Evelynn Irelia FizzRiven Vi Zed MaokaiAlistar

IcyPepper1 votes

ttack speed reduction is the only actual counterplay to her Silver Bolts, as you can't counter with armor as it is true damage, but you can't counter it with HP because it is based on maximum health.

Armor actually does help against Vayne, she still deals enough physical damage for you to benefit with armor. The only way to counter her W itself is with thornmail or the attack speed reduction items, but armor is not completely useless against Vayne.

IceKingChernobog2 votes

true but it doesn't take away the fact that her silver bolts does a stupid amount of damage. and when she gets a last wisper she pretty much invalidates 85% of your armor

BiggerBurgger1 votes

I main Lucian and I have never lost lane to vayne. Not to my memory. But I agree vayne is very strong and I play her sometimes myself.

Champion Skin1 votes

The only way I see Lucian losing that lane is if he misses most of his Qs and if he keeps getting condemned into walls

gl0hs0zgf1 votes

It's not like we could just kill her super quick before she does anything in a teamfight or something...

Oh wait.

Just have your midlaner either engage on her if possible or hide off to the side and come out only to kill her. She can't deal damage if she's dead >:)

BlkStar1001 votes

After reading your article I have to agree that Vayne is a bit foo strong . I beleive that a nerf in movement speed/ W early scaling/base damage/early attack speed should help normalize her early game . She IS meant to be monstrous mid to late game .

More from Gameplay

More by YumaS2Astral