RNG Passives Feel Really Crappy

Troy242621··16 votes·1,221 views

TL;DR: Zyra's rework turned her into a gimmick through use of RNG

Preface This is discussing the design, not the power, of Zyra, and is arguing that it made her both less healthy and less satisfying to use. There is nothing wrong with making her more plant-focused; indeed, that's her whole theme to begin with. However, the implementation, which is to say the use of RNG, was the wrong way to accomplish it.

The Issue of Chance Random chance really has no part in a competitive game like League of Legends because it adds variance outside of the players' control. This is why it mystifies me that Zyra's rework incorporated a considerable amount of random chance into her plants. Turning her into an area denial support is fine, but the means by which they did it are not.

Contrast to the Original Previously, her plants were important, but her Q and E were potent in their own right. Now, most of her damage comes from landing a snare with multiple plants in range. You only have partial control over how many plants are in range, and it makes her somewhat more predictable.

29 Comments

Backup4now3 votes

RNG Passives Feels Really Crappy

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

RNG Passives Feels Really Crappy

Agreed.

Honestly crit should just be turned into a modifier for autos. That would ultimately be a nerf and buff to crit, simultaneously, because it's possible to consistently crit and consistently not crit deapite having low crit chance and a lot of crit chance respectively.

Hinagiku332 votes

I hate to break it to you, but Crit and RNG isn't going anywhere.

Riot has stated previously that some amount of RNG is necessary. League of Legends isn't like actual sportsr. When you kick or throw a ball there are tons of physics in play that make any kind of consistency hard as hell. The wind blows the ball, the sun gets in your eyes when you go to catch, a small rift in the ice from a skate diverts the puck, etc. Since things are unpredictable in real life sports there is no need for randomness in the rules to keep things fun. Random stuff like fumbles just happen naturally.

League does not benefit from this. All projectiles are guaranteed to go exactly where you click and few things can really interact with them. Instead of complex physical maneuvers, all we get area few buttons to press and a mouse cursor. Without the randomness of real life physics, everything is far too consistent and there is always a single most optimal way to play. That means to be good at the game, everyone has to play exactly the same and every game will be exactly the same as the last one. Every lane interaction just becomes paint-by-numbers and a single error means you instantly lose unless you opponent decides to screw up worse.

So Riot uses some RNG mechanics to keep things interesting. Except not really; pretty much nothing in League is actually random but instead uses pseudo-random number generation. With actual RNG a 5% Crit Chance means there is a dice roll on every hit with a 5% chance to crit. In League, your initial chance can actually be a bit lower but increases each time you do not crit until a crit is guaranteed. It's not really random - if you have any crit chance at all then you will crit after a certain number of hits. The computer rolls the numbers and knows when you will crit but since you and your opponent do not get to see those pre-rolled numbers you do not know when to expect it so it FEELS unexpected and random. A flat damage modifier on every hit is the same as not having any modifiers at all - with no variance then whoever pulls even a slight lead will always have more damage and auto-win lane.

Riot intends for playing around unexpected moments and inconsistent situations to be a core skill in League. Otherwise games will be won purely by math since there is little other variance in League to enable comebacks or in any way challenge a team that gets a slight lead.

Amasa Delano1 votes

This is an amazing reply.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Amasa Delano,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jxocsOWM,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-01T20:37:21.153+0000)

This is an amazing reply.

It's really not. It has no actual basis, minus the claim about PRNG, which acually just means crit is easier to abuse.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fiora All Night,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jxocsOWM,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-08-01T15:49:20.960+0000)

I hate to break it to you, but Crit and RNG isn't going anywhere.

Riot has stated previously that some amount of RNG is necessary. League of Legends isn't like actual sportsr. When you kick or throw a ball there are tons of physics in play that make any kind of consistency hard as hell. The wind blows the ball, the sun gets in your eyes when you go to catch, a small rift in the ice from a skate diverts the puck, etc. Since things are unpredictable in real life sports there is no need for randomness in the rules to keep things fun. Random stuff like fumbles just happen naturally.

League does not benefit from this. All projectiles are guaranteed to go exactly where you click and few things can really interact with them. Instead of complex physical maneuvers, all we get area few buttons to press and a mouse cursor. Without the randomness of real life physics, everything is far too consistent and there is always a single most optimal way to play. That means to be good at the game, everyone has to play exactly the same and every game will be exactly the same as the last one. Every lane interaction just becomes paint-by-numbers and a single error means you instantly lose unless you opponent decides to screw up worse.

So Riot uses some RNG mechanics to keep things interesting. Except not really; pretty much nothing in League is actually random but instead uses pseudo-random number generation. With actual RNG a 5% Crit Chance means there is a dice roll on every hit with a 5% chance to crit. In League, your initial chance can actually be a bit lower but increases each time you do not crit until a crit is guaranteed. It's not really random - if you have any crit chance at all then you will crit after a certain number of hits. The computer rolls the numbers and knows when you will crit but since you and your opponent do not get to see those pre-rolled numbers you do not know when to expect it so it FEELS unexpected and random. A flat damage modifier on every hit is the same as not having any modifiers at all - with no variance then whoever pulls even a slight lead will always have more damage and auto-win lane.

Riot intends for playing around unexpected moments and inconsistent situations to be a core skill in League. Otherwise games will be won purely by math since there is little other variance in League to enable comebacks or in any way challenge a team that gets a slight lead.

That's also why they removed dodge, right?

Anyway, you don't need to explain PRNG to a programmer; I am aware that it is being deployed in the case of crit. What it actually means is that crit can randomly trigger, but won't trigger more often or less often than the % dictates. In short, it's already less random than crit, but does in fact have varying amounts of burst with high points in dps and low points. Such could completely be eliminated by my proposition.

NOBODY except ADC players think crit is even a remotely interesting mechanic. It simply isn't. There is no skill in something that could kill you, or could not. You have no control over it, thus it is not interesting. All you can really do is buffer your crit chance by hitting a few minions and waiting till you stack up a few non crit autos, before turning around and attacking the enemy champion. If you consider that interesting gameplay, I don't know what to tell you.

inplane2 votes

I know trying to emulate plant growth and trying to play around the gimmick of nature is hard, but randomly spawning plants is a horrible concept mechanically. They could've just given her more Seed charges (2 is just ridiculously small) but in order to balance that out it has a casting cooldown of maybe 2 seconds? It would give Zyra the incentive to plant Seeds and not just use it mid cast, which is what makes her combos so powerful.

DemoGuide1 votes

They tried to make her plant mage, they made her annoying as hell to play against instead. I would really like if her W planted like 3 plants at one time, but she couldn't harass as much as she does now. And malza instead could be moved into passive voidling spawn. Really, i believe changing directions on these 2 mages would make them less toxic.

Troy2426211 votes

Bump for plants.

paisy1 votes

I like the new passive, more seeds mean more plants, yay

EvilMerodach1 votes

Is it RNG? I thought it was closer to like Draven axes. Land somewhere near you, but if you're walking on a set path it will spawn along that path. So like, with Zyra, when you have 1 second left on your passive, just start walking toward where you want a seed to spawn, and as soon as it starts spawning hit H to stop yourself from walking into the enemy. Hardly have to move at all and you get the seed where you want it. No longer RNG, just something along the lines of wave manipulation.

Serpents Embrace1 votes

No, they spawn wherever regardless of what you do. It has nothing to do with your movements.

EvilMerodach1 votes

I donno, felt like I could control it pretty well, like knew exactly where it was going to spawn before it did. I'd at least try it out sometime. Just never stand still when one is about to spawn, cause then it is just full random placement in a circle around you.

Serpents Embrace1 votes

I've only been able to stomach playing the new Zyra a few times but every time I've had them spawn behind me while moving forward in lane, or my favorite spot - under the enemy's feet.

DeathBot6661 votes

My problem with your example is that before the update, her only means of spawning plants was her W. Now her W spawns plants and her passive.

If she couldn't W then I would agree with you, but now she can still spawn plants where she wants, but also gets plants in random places as well.

Qiy4na1 votes

Illaoi passive bothers me too :/ i didn't want to spawn a tentacle there tbh

Serpents Embrace1 votes

Illaoi's passive isn't RNG, though. It's uncontrollable, but it's not random.

Odinakos1 votes

I disagree. First of all it is semi random as it will prioritize toward the direction you are moving around an area around you. Yes i also hate having one plant for lvl 1 camp but far from that i am fine with how they spawn.

Second it adds another minigame beween you and your opponents effectively raising the skill cap for playing with and against her. Do you care enouph to protect your seed? Do you pop it if enemy wants to clear it? Do you keep them for a better trade or just pop them for one attack? Those are decisions that Zyra players have to take for each seed from passive and there may be a lot of them to think about.Yea you can pop them at sight but it wont be the most efficient thing. At the end that made her more interesting to play with/against her.

Third. After the rework you needed one more plant to match the QE dmg nerfs. Just one. And with all those passive seeds you can harass better and zone control better. I am seriously worried that if AP supports become meta she will get olafed.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Praying to rngesus in order to get kills is bullshit. Yasuo, Trynd, pretty much any adc that builds crit (other than ashe and jhin ofc). The only solution is to think that RNG will help you kill them faster, not make you kill them.

Serpents Embrace1 votes

I'd definitely agree. I didn't like the direction the rework went in at all. The Q shape, the uncontrollable passive, the shift of damage from spells to plants (which already are the more frustrating source of damage she has since they're AI)... :\

But it was overtuned so now people think it's strong and it probably won't change.

QweraRandolphz1 votes

RNG anything feels shitty, no reason for us to not have every in-game factor in our hands. Solo queue is enough RNG for LoL


http://www.pvpdatabase.com/?p=1253

WoonStruck1 votes

Its not random. You can control it if you pay attention to how the algorithm works.

Go in to a custom and just experiment with it. Bushes and all.

Troy2426211 votes

{quoted}

Its not random. You can control it if you pay attention to how the algorithm works.

Go in to a custom and just experiment with it. Bushes and all.

No, it's still random. Draven's axes aren't random because you control their exact placement. The plant can still be placed a considerable distance away from you, and furthermore, the plants themselves have pretty short range. The chance involved here is still relevant.

LordGeovanni1 votes

RNG has its places or else you remove the rng and end up with riots crit system and get reliably 3crit in your face by people with 20% crit chance almost all the time and die

Teridax681 votes

I thought you were going to mention Twisted Fate's or Tryndamere's passives, which are respectively mediocre and seriously unhealthy. While I'll be the first to lambaste the use of RNG in a skill-centric video game, I don't think Zyra's passive really is RNG, as it's meant to spawn plants around important targets, and the issue I take with the above criticism is that it just criticizes Zyra's new innate for supposedly being RNG and stops at that. What I think would be more relevant would be to point out how this truly affected gameplay for you, e.g. by spawning plants inconsistently around your main target or spawning them in places where you didn't want them to be, both of which would normally be consequences of a random seed spawning system. From the very limited experience I've had with Zyra's new kit, her seed generation felt fine and even rather reliable, though that is clearly not a universal opinion.

Evewynn1 votes

I think the speed in which the plants spawn more than makes up for it. I have a blast whenever I play her, and the consistency of her w is always there for when you really need plants in a specific location. It also gives her a neat "strength over time in a location" effect similar to illaoi.

It's also a lot easier to land her q now, making it a very reliable harass tool. Playing her mid, I feel like she is almost too strong, especially after her buffs. She is definitely not just reliant on her passive.

If you want to be a true champion against RNG, you may want to advocate against crits as well, which make or break fights with RNG far more than zyra's passive ever will.

Urf Mode Is Life1 votes

Here is where you are missing the point of how they reworked her. Her old passive was a joke, now she gets free seeds spawning, but she can also still place seeds on her own, which opens her up to more gameplay options and better positioning choices.

Sure the seeds spawn in random places, but they cost you nothing, you dont have to do anything to make it happen, and in some situations it can actually be extremely beneficial when you have 4 seeds down in the same area and ult + Q or E

Her passive is perfect / near perfect

Troy2426211 votes

[{quoted}](name=Urf Mode Is Life,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jxocsOWM,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2016-08-01T17:56:03.569+0000)

Here is where you are missing the point of how they reworked her. Her old passive was a joke, now she gets free seeds spawning, but she can also still place seeds on her own, which opens her up to more gameplay options and better positioning choices.

Sure the seeds spawn in random places, but they cost you nothing, you dont have to do anything to make it happen, and in some situations it can actually be extremely beneficial when you have 4 seeds down in the same area and ult + Q or E

Her passive is perfect / near perfect

Nothing in any kit is free. It consumes power budget, which in this case, is tied to RNG. It doesn't feel good to have seeds spawn everywhere except where you need them because you cannot control them. I understand her old passive was terrible. Nevertheless, it doesn't make her replacement any better.

Also, you're not going to land a snare with 4+ plants on any competent player.

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