Honestly, tanks shouldn't be able to lane against fighters.

Dasdi96·Jan 23, 2018·3 votes·907 views

Back in season 4, if you tried to send a tank that wasn't against a fighter top lane, you will get destroyed and forced to miss a lot of cs so you can't get your tank items in time. Tanks had to be played in the jungle and they did well as back then jungle was lower income and tanks had cheaper items so they can still be useful. However they were susceptible to invades putting them behind. The reason you picked a tank was to have this very tanky cc machine in late game teamfights, often with game changing ultimates. Now we have shit like actually outtrading fighters in the laning phase with insane early cc and high base damages and cutting sustain to 3/5.

17 Comments

xJLx MCHammerJan 23, 20183 votes

HERE WE GO AGAIN http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics

Go check who has the highest winrate in top lane. The first tank is Nasus who is ranked at #3. Rightfully so, it's mostly because of one item that makes him strong. The next tank that has a high winrate is at 20 who is Sion. Maokai is 38/51 top laners. Darius and J4 are not tanks.... They are bruisers.

Play a 1v1 and pick a jax. You will notice a Jax will destroy a tank my late game. The issue is, the tanks can survive the lane and they end up impact the game more as they don't POP in team fights. Tanks aren't OP. They are just the only champions who can survive long enough in the front line before the ADC gets killed. Once the ADC gets killed, the team fight is over. Bruisers have it tough because the game rewards team fights. Tanks survive in lane long enough (since lane phase is even shorter now) to start grouping and forcing the bruisers in team fights

But looking at tanks winrate, they aren't doing that well. Scale the DMG down of ADCS and you will see other champions do well.

Automated RivenJan 23, 20182 votes

I 100% disagree. The issue with tanks is that they out trade and out sustain fighters. They basically become unlikable monsters in lane by going the resolve tree. But they should be able to lane comfortably against some fighters and struggle against others. Same as every other champion. The likes of renek and Pantheon should make it difficult while scaling champs like fiora riven and Camille should have a harder time. Riven is kinda dumb in lane as she gets alot of agency over if she trades or not due to her mobility. That being said gutting tanks and forcing them into the jungle is not the right approach. Tank top lane should be an equally viable option. But they should LOSE split push pressure against a fighter as the game goes on. And they should be succeptable to being dove or at least respect the potential if the fighter is ahead. Fighters do need some way to impact the map later in the game as it's super difficult to team fight with them effectively unless your enemy is brain-dead.

xJLx MCHammerJan 23, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jwK7PA3P,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-01-23T01:45:26.725+0000)

I 100% disagree. The issue with tanks is that they out trade and out sustain fighters. They basically become unlikable monsters in lane by going the resolve tree. But they should be able to lane comfortably against some fighters and struggle against others. Same as every other champion. The likes of renek and Pantheon should make it difficult while scaling champs like fiora riven and Camille should have a harder time. Riven is kinda dumb in lane as she gets alot of agency over if she trades or not due to her mobility. That being said gutting tanks and forcing them into the jungle is not the right approach. Tank top lane should be an equally viable option. But they should LOSE split push pressure against a fighter as the game goes on. And they should be succeptable to being dove or at least respect the potential if the fighter is ahead. Fighters do need some way to impact the map later in the game as it's super difficult to team fight with them effectively unless your enemy is brain-dead.

Tanks do not out-sustain fighters. Fighters tend to get sustain items which give them the ability to outsustain.

The issue is that Tanks just need to survive long enough for a gank where they can dive you and the jungler will provide plenty dmg. The tanks have the benefit of scaling into team fights. Tanks can survive in the front lane and make a CC-play but comps without tanks suffer from this.

Put MOST tanks in a 1v1 fight in top lane and most bruisers that you mentioned will out scale and win. Fiora will kill majority of tanks post level 11 without outside help. However, ask her to go in a team fight, her impact dramatically drops. Why? Fiora will get 3 shotted by ADC or by a rotation from a mid laner...

Automated RivenJan 23, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jwK7PA3P,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-01-23T01:56:31.221+0000)

Tanks do not out-sustain fighters. Fighters tend to get sustain items which give them the ability to outsustain.

The issue is that Tanks just need to survive long enough for a gank where they can dive you and the jungler will provide plenty dmg. The tanks have the benefit of scaling into team fights. Tanks can survive in the front lane and make a CC-play but comps without tanks suffer from this.

Put MOST tanks in a 1v1 fight in top lane and most bruisers that you mentioned will out scale and win. Fiora will kill majority of tanks post level 11 without outside help. However, ask her to go in a team fight, her impact dramatically drops. Why? Fiora will get 3 shotted by ADC or by a rotation from a mid laner...

That does tend to be true. Except that tanks with dorans and last stand almost literally don't take damage in lane. This is made even more exasperating when the likes of Shen and orn have shields. And moakai has a huge heal every 8 spells or something. And they buy bramble vest which literally destroys any bruisers chance of winning a 1v1 for a extremely long period of time. That doesn't even count that they typically do a lot more damage early on in the game as well (effective damage as bruisers may have higher numbers but tanks have higher resists) also aside from fiora almost zero bruisers rush life steal and few even have it in their core build.

xJLx MCHammerJan 23, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jwK7PA3P,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-01-23T02:49:18.601+0000)

That does tend to be true. Except that tanks with dorans and last stand almost literally don't take damage in lane. This is made even more exasperating when the likes of Shen and orn have shields. And moakai has a huge heal every 8 spells or something. And they buy bramble vest which literally destroys any bruisers chance of winning a 1v1 for a extremely long period of time. That doesn't even count that they typically do a lot more damage early on in the game as well (effective damage as bruisers may have higher numbers but tanks have higher resists) also aside from fiora almost zero bruisers rush life steal and few even have it in their core build.

Despite all the hate on Maokai, he isn't healing in lane a lot. There aren't a lot of bruisers who spam spells. Most rely on a 1-2 spells to get it an amplify the damage. The ones that spam generally aren't really bruisers. On top of that, he guy has like 46% win rate suggesting he isn't even that strong.

Shen can't trade anymore, not since his nerf. His has okay healing but its mostly because it encourages trades which he isn't good anymore.

Bramble vest is the only thing stopping non-tank champions from literally forcing trades and healing up to 100% on the next way.

Automated RivenJan 23, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jwK7PA3P,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-23T03:42:25.896+0000)

Despite all the hate on Maokai, he isn't healing in lane a lot. There aren't a lot of bruisers who spam spells. Most rely on a 1-2 spells to get it an amplify the damage. The ones that spam generally aren't really bruisers. On top of that, he guy has like 46% win rate suggesting he isn't even that strong.

Shen can't trade anymore, not since his nerf. His has okay healing but its mostly because it encourages trades which he isn't good anymore.

Bramble vest is the only thing stopping non-tank champions from literally forcing trades and healing up to 100% on the next way.

Idk that may be true now. I haven't actually played top lane in over a month. I really haven't played the game much at all tbh.

Colton147Jan 23, 20182 votes

Ornn 's been tossed into the dumpster with his current nerf and is going to be killed off with his next nerf. (Level 7 Ornn )

His current winrate is 47%-48%: http://na.op.gg/champion/ornn/statistics/top http://champion.gg/champion/Ornn/Top?league=undefined

KirotheImmortalJan 23, 20181 votes

Im going to disagree with this post for one thing: I dont wana see jax meta ever again.

Dasdi96Jan 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Im going to disagree with this post for one thing: I dont wana see jax meta ever again.

You are not supposed to counter Jax by picking Maokai or {{champion:516}. You are supposed to pick a strong early game fighter like Renekton Darius JarvanIV and denying him cs early game.

Meep ManJan 23, 20182 votes

That's almost exactly how you counter Jax though. He relies on items and levels, so just hard bullying him in lane with specific champions was exactly how you dealt with Jax, at least for the early game.

higuraJan 23, 20181 votes

You are not supposed to counter by picking or and denying him cs early game.

Darius is a juggernaut and JarvanIV is a diver, both are fighter classes.

source:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses

buPPDrmXEOJan 23, 20181 votes

JAX shouldn't be able to lane against Renekton. But as things are right now Jax (a hyperscaling 1v1 duelist who unlocks after trinity) demolishes a Renekton (early game champion who's only forte is his laning phase)

Harden StepbackJan 23, 20181 votes

I agree. Ornn has no business bullying out Renekton .

KirotheImmortalJan 23, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Setsuna F,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jwK7PA3P,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-01-23T02:54:28.147+0000)

I agree. has no business bullying out .

Unless ren is constantly tryinf to stun during Ornn w ren wins that fight hands down.

Meep ManJan 23, 20181 votes

I disagree. Tanks should be able to lane against Fighters, but I don't think they should do it by outdamaging them as a few do now. They should win trades because they take longer to kill and effectively use their crowd control, not spamming high base damage abilities with a small amount of CC attached.

KirotheImmortalJan 23, 20181 votes

Honestly the thing i most agree on is the ADC thing. as an adc player they are WAYYYY top impactful. ADC should be about objectives and pushing. Not beeing the desisive factor in fights. I honestly wana see marksmens out of bot and bring in other things.

IE mord. Mord could have worked out as a pusher carry just by making his E Execute minions and cost more HP.

I realy hope that when Nunu gets his rework/tweek and it bring in Azir bot. It would be a beutiful sight to see.

I realy had high hopes for something like this when zigs bot was even a pro set up.

PulsarPolloJan 23, 20181 votes

Just play a ranged top laner or get some early ganks.

A really good professional example of this would be Game 4 of the LCK Summer Split Final.

Here's a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoVm96wn0zY

Basically Khan's Jayce screws over Huni's Chogath and almost single handedly wins the game by effectively zoning Huni off his wave through a series of freezing and shoving after he burns his flash.