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The whole "we're gonna make botlane more than adc + supp" is gonna fail miserably

Sasogwa··60 votes·3,821 views

I'm sorry for being négative, but Honestly... We're gonna build a new botlane and make the adc mains pay for it, it's gonna be great ! No. No, it's not. It's never gonna happen. Do you really think you're gonna be able to change botlane to include anything else than adc's? I guess you at least know why the repartition of roles is as it is right now: adc's and support not only complement themselves extremely well, they also beat pretty much every other combination in lane, while having great synergy with this lane setup: adc's scale extremely well with gold and less with levels, supps have great kits that dont need a lot of resources (gold or exp) to work well.

How are you gonna make that Work? Do you plan on changing every other champion's scaling and completely fuck their balance state in other lanes to have them somewhat work botlane ? How are you gonna do for nonsupport melees? Make targon melee-only and broken overpowered, something along the lines of mordekaiser passive, aka higher exp revenues ? You know that's gonna either make melees dominate botlane, and/or make tank melee supps just way better than everyone else at the expense of enchanters or mage-like supps (brand/zyra)?

I don't see it ever working especially since adc's and supps have been ridiculously powercreeped through reworks,buffs to kits and itemization. It's like an impossible nasty optimization problem. There are too many constraints, you can't solve what you wanna do without breaking everything else.

I mean, consider that as a challenge if you wish, it would be literally insane, incredible if you manage to make a lot of other champions work bot. But Honestly, in the current state of things the only thing I can see work bot would be a dps mage with high item scaling and similar characteristics as adc's.. Maybe azir? But that's it. I would be really glad if you proved me wrong. Really. But I don't see any way you could ever do it without breaking the fuck out the game. And when I see the balance is determined by people like ricklessabandon for instance, the silver guy that without ever consulting Yi mains proceeds to do a random meditate change that solves absolutely nothing, realizes his change is garbage, reverts and does a pretty much straight damage buff while royally ignoring the community suggesting highlander reverts and changes like removing alpha Cast time to solve buggy interactions, basically like the champion is not worth his time.. And after those kind of pathetic balances, Riot talks about being able to do an insanely huge project to make botlane more diverse, which is infinitely more complicated... I'm sorry but I can't trust you. I might be biased, and wrong, sure. Please prove me wrong.

Sincerely, a cynic player.

78 Comments

buPPDrmXEO54 votes

I absolutely have 0 faith in Riot's balance team, I'm just waiting for another inevitable fuck up to happen at this point.

WE'll be left with another broken gimmicky champion like Mordekaiser or broken solo laners who'll auto win lane from lv1

Z3Sleeper8 votes

Most likely they are gonna be targeting items to make this one happen.

I think they learned their lesson with Mordekaiser.

I don't think they plan on replacing the Marksman role whatsoever, but rather they plan on making it a viable lane-winning strategy to run other roles bot lane in the hopes that they can tie into your team comp better than an ADC would.

But considering ADC has been meta for 8 seasons straight, I don't think that's gonna change either.

Dustpartical1 votes

there was a point in league where adc was played mid lane, mages were played top lane, jungle same for the most part, and bot was a odd combination of champs like shen and cho. oh and your "support" role would roam

Z3Sleeper1 votes

The closest we've been to breaking an established meta was when Moscow 5 had the support follow the jungle around all game.

Jamenawerl1 votes

If I remember correctly they could only afford to do that because Urgot was able to 1v2 botlane with a certain build that was absolute garbage late game. Immediatly after Urgot was gutted and left in the gutter for 4 years because "toxic design" and stuff.

There was also this period at the start of season 5 where you could double targons top instead of 1-1-2 with jungle. Ofc, instantly nerfed.

If anything it shows that Riot is able to create different metas with "minor" changes, even if it was on accident. Its just that they didnt want ADCs to leave the spotlight until now. Maybe they feel the game's life is in danger for the first time. Or maybe they just realized this design is garbage. Who knows.

Dustpartical1 votes

Whatever their motives i'm interested to see where this goes. Even if it flops it could bring a fun twist to the game. As of now some adcs can do well in the top lane, so maybe they plan to capitalize on that niche.

Sasogwa1 votes

{quoted}

Whatever their motives i'm interested to see where this goes. Even if it flops it could bring a fun twist to the game. As of now some adcs can do well in the top lane, so maybe they plan to capitalize on that niche.

I feel the problem is moreso making other picks work bot than making adc's work in other lanes. Adc's work already fairly well in top/mid due to range = safety, the usual reason we don't see them too often is that it's kind of suboptimal to have 2 or more adc's in a team; combined with the fact there's almost literally always an adc bot anyway.

Jamenawerl2 votes

Thats because ADCs are busted. You can play ADC at literally every position except support, but then again support isnt even a position by itself, its just a role created to empower ADCs basically acting like their bitch.

Dustpartical1 votes

Fair enough. I was just bringing up a point that in the early days of League things were different than what they are now. I love seeing League grow, so i'm interested to see how they go about this. Still I have my doubts that it will work out, and even more so that it will work out without some big hickups along the way.

Scary Door18 votes

The only way that bot-lane will ever be different is if the entire fundamental infrastructure of League is completely redesigned.

A ranged, attack-damage-based champion with a support, will always be infinitely superior to a melee or ranged ability-power-based/support combo. Does this mean that melee champions cannot win in bot lane? Of course not, but if we assume equal skill in a given matchup (a dangerous assumption given Riot's poor matchmaking system of late) then history has shown that bot-lane will always be inevitably dominated by an adc and support combo.

This is because of siege potential, range, various support and support-item synergies and teamfighting mechanics. It would be borderline impossible to change this dynamic on a broader scale without a complete overhaul of the game.

I think Riot is dreaming-out-loud with this notion of opening up bot lane to other combinations.

Yourmothermyhand16 votes

4 months without a bruiser's rune, F.O.U.R , meanwhile ADC'S have like 4 different runes to work with, but somehow that same "balance" team that gives 0 fucks about melee champions is going to make melees work bot... HAHAHAHAHAHA*[sg-miss-fortune]*

stone the blacks13 votes

Here's an idea Make marksmen more niche so they can't always fill the role needed Not everyone should be able to siege, wave clear, duel, burst, tank shred, etc

Need Gold 4 Tent10 votes

ADC can keep their lategame carry status. But then, kill lanes need to be totally viable again. It feels bad that I have to work so hard to shut down the bot lane when I'm doing Pantheon/Ali or Jarvan/Leona bot, just to have them outscale me in the end. Totally fine with the outscaling, but the fact that I had to work so hard for it despite giving up on lategame sucks. It used to be that kill duos start off with an advantage that disappears towards midgame, but now you actually start with a disadvantage in lane. The kill pressure is no longer there as supports with their peels/shields/heals and ADC having innate mobility and self-peels, on top of poke. Would be nice if minions did bonus damage to ranged champs.

Oleandervine7 votes

ADCs include characters like Fiora Jayce Irelia OlafZed Rengar Talon Yasuo Riven. These champions can all qualify as ATTACK DAMAGE CARRIES. This isn't to be confused with Markmen, who predominately take the slot in bot lane. I've seen games actually work where people have taken Riven with a support like Braum or Nami who can provide adequare cover and CC to allow Riven to get up in people's faces and do her thing. It's not hard at all to push some melees into the role if they have a proper support to keep them alive long enough to get into the fight. We saw early last year that APCs can work in the role as well, when Ziggs was a briefly popular pick instead of a marksman. So don't knock it just because it goes against the status quo. The only reason people aren't trying it is because they're afraid to experiment and other people can be downright hostile if you break the meta.

Sasogwa7 votes

{quoted}

ADCs include characters like Fiora Jayce Irelia OlafZed Rengar Talon Yasuo Riven. These champions can all qualify as ATTACK DAMAGE CARRIES. This isn't to be confused with Markmen, who predominately take the slot in bot lane.

That is true, but the ADC term is largely admitted to refer ranged carries. I personally prefer calling Riven Jayce AD casters, Rengar Talon Zed assassins, Fiora Irelia Olaf bruisers or subclass of bruisers, and would consider melee ADCs more like autoattack-based melee carries such as Yasuo MasterYi and potentially Aatrox XinZhao Jax though they usually build quite tanky and not really have a carry itemization, so it's a debate there. In any case, whether we call the ranged autoattack botlane carries ADC's or marksmen doesn't really matter, as long as we know who we're talking about.

I've seen games actually work where people have taken Riven with a support like Braum or Nami who can provide adequare cover and CC to allow Riven to get up in people's faces and do her thing.

That can work but it's suboptimal. As I and several others have tried to explain, when you go bot you have to share exp, but champions that usually go top/mid have a way higher scaling with level compared to ADC's. ADC's kits are very reliant on steroids, which impact the damage done by their autoattacks, which are mostly linked to their current build. This is not as much true for other picks.

It's not hard at all to push some melees into the role if they have a proper support to keep them alive long enough to get into the fight.

It actually is quite complicated. Doing a game and succeeding without a conventional botlane is a challenge, but if we had to play it consistently, the winrate of non-conventional botlanes would be weak, probably sub 45%. Because they're not adapted to botlane, while adc+ supp really is.

We saw early last year that APCs can work in the role as well, when Ziggs was a briefly popular pick instead of a marksman. So don't knock it just because it goes against the status quo. The only reason people aren't trying it is because they're afraid to experiment and other people can be downright hostile if you break the meta.

To be fair, Ziggs only made a brief appearance and is not quite the result we expect when we say diversify botlane. It's just one guy, with good waveclear and tower destruction that can abuse tower first blood. While some people are, I think it's quite wrong to say for sure people don't play something else than meta because they're afraid to break the meta. People play all sorts of things, and generally keep what works best for them. If we are in the meta we're in right now, it is because people figured out it was the most optimal way to play. I seriously doubt a pro team trying out a double jungle cheese or something like that would have any success. There are really good arguments why botlane is the way it is, and suggesting to put other picks there with a staple winrate without outright breaking them in sololane, or just breaking the current state of the game; is sort of delusional, in my humble opinion.

If I can do a metaphor, it's like trying to make dogs climb a tree, when you already have monkeys that can climb a tree, but you want dogs to be as good or better at it. Maybe one dog is a genius and will manage once in a while, but to have that consistently, what are you gonna do? Make the dogs take genetic experiments so they become superdogs? Making them much better at other domains when you don't want them to be better at those? Cut off the monkey's legs?

ModCaptainMårvelous7 votes

{quoted}

That is true, but the ADC term is largely admitted to refer ranged carries. I personally prefer calling Riven Jayce AD casters, Rengar Talon Zed assassins, Fiora Irelia Olaf bruisers or subclass of bruisers, and would consider melee ADCs more like autoattack-based melee carries such as Yasuo MasterYi and potentially Aatrox XinZhao Jax though they usually build quite tanky and not really have a carry itemization, so it's a debate there. In any case, whether we call the ranged autoattack botlane carries ADC's or marksmen doesn't really matter, as long as we know who we're talking about.

I'm gonna have to hand you this bullet to bite because the truth is that melee ADCs in the style you're asking for (Auto-attack heavy characters with mostly focusing on melee DPS) isn't going to happen for several reasons. First and foremost, you have to address range vs. melee disparity, which means:

  • Melee scales harder.
  • Melee carries can deal ranged damage but are also tanky.
  • Melee has bonus/increased damage to towers.
  • Melee becomes a higher risk with greater reward vs. ranged.

At this point you go "Sure, yeah, do that". However, the problem comes from how league is balanced. This sort of thing works in DOTA, as the most ready comparison, because DOTA says fuck casuals/anyone who isn't a pro. The best support in the game can get nerfs at a 30% win rate while the worst character in the game gets buffs at a 76% win rate because of the disparity between pubs and pros.

League does not do this. Riot, League and the playerbase is too concerned about having fun for the casual. This in turn leads to design and balance becoming stifled because all the changes required to make Yi go bot-lane and be viable/optimal in pro play would leave him with an 80% win rate in Bronze 4.

If Riot is earnest about making bot lane open up, a fundamental philosophy change has to happen and more focus has to be given to the highest tier of play. Of course, this also means the boards will be filled with "Riot cares too much about the LCS" and throwing around win-rates because people want balance in theory. In practice, they want the game they like more even if it's the worst balanced game in the world.

DragonShea2 votes

{quoted}

I'm gonna have to hand you this bullet to bite because the truth is that melee ADCs in the style you're asking for (Auto-attack heavy characters with mostly focusing on melee DPS) isn't going to happen for several reasons. First and foremost, you have to address range vs. melee disparity, which means:

  • Melee scales harder.
  • Melee carries can deal ranged damage but are also tanky.
  • Melee has bonus/increased damage to towers.
  • Melee becomes a higher risk with greater reward vs. ranged.

At this point you go "Sure, yeah, do that". However, the problem comes from how league is balanced. This sort of thing works in DOTA, as the most ready comparison, because DOTA says fuck casuals/anyone who isn't a pro. The best support in the game can get nerfs at a 30% win rate while the worst character in the game gets buffs at a 76% win rate because of the disparity between pubs and pros.

League does not do this. Riot, League and the playerbase is too concerned about having fun for the casual. This in turn leads to design and balance becoming stifled because all the changes required to make Yi go bot-lane and be viable/optimal in pro play would leave him with an 80% win rate in Bronze 4.

If Riot is earnest about making bot lane open up, a fundamental philosophy change has to happen and more focus has to be given to the highest tier of play. Of course, this also means the boards will be filled with "Riot cares too much about the LCS" and throwing around win-rates because people want balance in theory. In practice, they want the game they like more even if it's the worst balanced game in the world.

Well there are so many factors to take in when talking about balance and the interest of the dev's. the thing is that when you make a game, on some level you don't have 100% control over it because you have to carter to a certain group of players and they might want something that is different from the devs. Really the thing is that at bare minimum, you should go 50/50, but that isn't enough. you have to go 51/51 and beyond in order to both be satisfied with the game you make and the fanbase that is playing it.

What I am seeing is that Riot has begun to lose sight of what made the game so good and I do think that it's because there are people that are not don't share as much passion or understand their vision that well, which can lead things astray. That is where I think the player base is more reliable in keeping the spirit of the game intact as we don't go through all the business changes and move up and around the making of the game and are more sensitive to the impact of the produce as players and consumers. The big problem is that, like I said. RIot do at times hire people that don't really align with their original philosophy while on the fanbases side, it's toxic player that come and sir up trouble for borderline nihilistic purposes.

I think that when things are bad there is no shame in taking a step back and bring what made the game or at least an aspect of the game good. In this case they should look to when Melees and where good and try to bring back some of the things that made them viable without making them OP.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Well there are so many factors to take in when talking about balance and the interest of the dev's.... snipped for space

A good case study of this actually happening is Smash. The creator(s) were really opposed to the way melee was being played as this twitchy hyper-competitive "NO ITEMS FOX ONLY" game. In return, Brawl was made with casual/party-fun in mind. The competitive playerbase hated it because they added stuff like tripping, stickers, general things to make the game more """fun""" and less competitive. Smash 4 is kind of where they met a psuedo compromise. I'm not going to say that devs have control over it completely but devs are also the people with final say on changes.

What I am seeing is that Riot has begun to lose sight of what made the game so good... (Snipped for space)

The issue is that the game was good for you. And yeah, it's a shitty argument, but it's also a true one. As time goes on, games make changes to widen the pool of players. The other thing is that you can find people who say <x> version of League is their favorite. This has more to do with League being a constantly updated game but, like any fighting game, you'll find people arguing <x> version was the best while <y> was the worst. I made a similar comment back in Season 5 where everyone said it was the worst time of the game in which "two years from now people will remark about how this was the best time". Lo and behold, they did. Time, nostalgia, personal feelings, etc. all go into the pot that is game design and game enjoyment. Plus, there's also the aspect that maybe Riot's original philosophy had problems the old creators didn't see. Alternatively, maybe that toxic player stirring up trouble has a kernal of truth to the arguments he's making.

I think that when things are bad there is no shame in taking a step back (etc)

The issue there is the same argument can be made with steps forwards. Just as you say there's no shame in taking steps back, so too should there be no shame in going "You know what, you guys are in the wrong". Again, it can be argued, but the bigger problem is that there has to be a balance of both accepting change and acknowledging failure. As you say, Riot can hold onto stuff too long (such as reverting parts of Rengar), but nobody likes to talk about aspects like the playerbase holding onto something that really wasn't all that important for too long.

There's gotta be balance. The tricky part is finding that balance on both sides. The biggest takeaway is that this isn't a war: Riot and the playerbase don't want two separate things (at least I hope they don't). There just has to be acceptance with how to get to that destination.

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

A good case study of this actually happening is Smash. The creator(s) were really opposed to the way melee was being played as this twitchy hyper-competitive "NO ITEMS FOX ONLY" game. In return, Brawl was made with casual/party-fun in mind. The competitive playerbase hated it because they added stuff like tripping, stickers, general things to make the game more """fun""" and less competitive. Smash 4 is kind of where they met a psuedo compromise. I'm not going to say that devs have control over it completely but devs are also the people with final say on changes.

The issue is that the game was good for you. And yeah, it's a shitty argument, but it's also a true one. As time goes on, games make changes to widen the pool of players. The other thing is that you can find people who say <x> version of League is their favorite. This has more to do with League being a constantly updated game but, like any fighting game, you'll find people arguing <x> version was the best while <y> was the worst. I made a similar comment back in Season 5 where everyone said it was the worst time of the game in which "two years from now people will remark about how this was the best time". Lo and behold, they did. Time, nostalgia, personal feelings, etc. all go into the pot that is game design and game enjoyment. Plus, there's also the aspect that maybe Riot's original philosophy had problems the old creators didn't see. Alternatively, maybe that toxic player stirring up trouble has a kernal of truth to the arguments he's making.

The issue there is the same argument can be made with steps forwards. Just as you say there's no shame in taking steps back, so too should there be no shame in going "You know what, you guys are in the wrong". Again, it can be argued, but the bigger problem is that there has to be a balance of both accepting change and acknowledging failure. As you say, Riot can hold onto stuff too long (such as reverting parts of Rengar), but nobody likes to talk about aspects like the playerbase holding onto something that really wasn't all that important for too long.

There's gotta be balance. The tricky part is finding that balance on both sides. The biggest takeaway is that this isn't a war: Riot and the playerbase don't want two separate things (at least I hope they don't). There just has to be acceptance with how to get to that destination.

Allow me to correct you on this one.

What I am seeing is that Riot has begun to lose sight of what made the game so good... (Snipped for space)

I think you don't realise that I was being objective when I said that, because there has clearly been good and bad meta's in league as well as Riot becoming a bit more distant towards the playerbase. which I feel ambivalent about. It's about the meta overall, not my own personal feelings towards it. I started in S4 so I more or less started when at the dawn of a new era of league, but I have seen and heard enough to know that league had some good and bad things, one good thing was the lower damage and less snowbally meta. the bad being that some champs like Kassadin and release Xin Zhao were OP like a motherfucker.

Anyways. I think that catering to casuals too much is just not gonna be a good game design as it doesn't allow for the expression of skill but of champions(more so than usual). which makes it hard to see if a champion or character is truly OP or not as nothing is hidden in the competitive scene but by having things focused on have a game that is for casuals, then it creates a meta is that is focused on champions that are OP or broken(again more so than usual), which as we have seen with some champions,akes champions that are "hard to use" become too powerful because they have more advanced abilities which skilled players can use better than a casual one to utterly screw them over. but people that do want to play the game casually should have the chance do to so, but that is gonna be a hard thing to do.

You are right about playerbase holding onto things and not getting called out for it, least one wants to get a shitload of downvotes. And I say fuck them for it, for they know who is and isn't deserving of this kind of criticism because I see it as one of the key reason why Riot isn't willing to be as open to people as they have in the past. I think that if you are gonna criticise someone, then accept the criticism given to you or shut the fuck up because gives players that are not toxic asshats a bad reputation and damages the relationship between the devs and playerbase as a whole. Because while Riot does deserve to be called out on some of their decision, it doesn't give the playerbase the right to scrutinise riot over everything and I myself have been harsh critic of riot at times and freely admit it because I love the game and have faith in the devs to do good as well as not wanting to be a coward and deny the bullshit i've done.

So when it comes to balance I think that some sacrifice should made in order to make league as good as it can get because this back and forth about X,Y and Z is creating a lot of tension and trouble.

Bronze Demon1 votes

{quoted}

ADCs include characters like Fiora Jayce Irelia OlafZed Rengar Talon Yasuo Riven. These champions can all qualify as ATTACK DAMAGE CARRIES. This isn't to be confused with Markmen, who predominately take the slot in bot lane. I've seen games actually work where people have taken Riven with a support like Braum or Nami who can provide adequare cover and CC to allow Riven to get up in people's faces and do her thing. It's not hard at all to push some melees into the role if they have a proper support to keep them alive long enough to get into the fight. We saw early last year that APCs can work in the role as well, when Ziggs was a briefly popular pick instead of a marksman. So don't knock it just because it goes against the status quo. The only reason people aren't trying it is because they're afraid to experiment and other people can be downright hostile if you break the meta.

Yea people are brainwashed into thinking marksmen bot nothing else since level one.

karolmo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ich heiße Jeff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=juqnyknM,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2018-02-03T21:35:47.865+0000)

Yea people are brainwashed into thinking marksmen bot nothing else since level one.

Pick riven adc against me and ur leaving bot 0-8 no bad feelings

gimmieninja6 votes

id love a break in the meta when it comes to bot lane.

Thing is ive seen it happen a good number of times when a changed up bot can wreck, usually it works because the opposing players dont know how to play against a non meta comp and get snowballed hard.

team comps like yorik top galio mid, ivern JG and kha and rengar bot. seems weird but when kha and rengo are up 8 kills 10 min in and yoriks free to split push and the galio roam is real.

ever play against a draven darius bot duo? (you dont want to)

how about azir nunu bot with a ez mid?

they are tough to play as but often your opponent really doesnt epect these types of comps.

i really want to toss something about morde in there but only time ive experienced him bot going well was along side a shen supp (did great!) but often doesnt go so well since morde requres some serious teamwork to pull off dominating the duo lane

i really hope to see more variety out of bot (im a support main but enjoy all roles Decent at most) because those curveballs really keep te game fresh, only worry is how when something new comes along and breaks out of the mold it often shatters the whole damn thing rather than creating ts own niche

xJLx MCHammer5 votes

It will backfire

they are going to give ADC more survive-ability to go into other lanes and you will see ADC champions even more...

Karfuss5 votes

Bot lane is already more than ADC and Support.

Does Riot even play on live servers? It's 4v4 down there.

Power Cosmic4 votes

Marksmen scaling would have to take a hit to make them lane strong, but plateau in midgame.

DontTouchMyBall3 votes

Idk what to expect, I am optimist but even I am scared with the outcome of these changes.

I also have to admit, now that I think back: Maokai bushes death, the Galio 1-nuclear one shot, the now Nunu changes, Jinx, the Rengar revert, the unevitable Akali rework by a Certain rioTer that is sure to make her pick/ban...

I am legit scared. Bot is all I ever played, Supp and ADC. If things go sour, I'll turn to the jungle.

Handy Sandy 3 votes

Azir can't even botlane anymore because of his rework, he scales with levels to get that Q cooldown reduced. Plus adcs outtrade since he uses mana.

Akali is SO HOT3 votes

The way the game is designed there is really no reason you would ever want a Yasuo bot lane instead of a Jinx. Even if the Yasuo is ahead, you'll never be able to siege because it's too dangerous for Yasuo to get up close to the turret without getting CCed and killed. Jinx can take the turret from far away, out of the danger zone, so she gets to worry less about being CCed. If they do it through making items/runes for melees that make them good at taking objectives on par with ADCs, that could either break bot lane or break the melees in other lanes or roles.

Sõna3 votes

I play both Dota2 and League of Legends.

Reason why ranged ADC is not popular in Dota2 because:

  1. How horribly low AD of the early game they have and how weak the towers are (so they will have chance to stop enemy ADC snowballing).
  2. Support reliant is not that important compared to League so they have room and space to roam midlane or stop enemy ADC from farming.
  3. Melee carry has their resistant item like shield to block ranged damage.
  4. Dota2's carry items can work on everyone but melee carry will maximize the potential of the items like "Skull Basher" that allows to stun an enemy 1.4 sec in 25% chance if you are melee, while ranged is 10%. Ranged carry usually doesn't have any beneficial item but their skill will help them.

Current stopwatch meta is too strong, tower aggro is so bad, a good support can almost make sure an ADC won't die.
I meant, why should a late-game scaling champion to have such safe early game and cheaper yet powerful items? item 3031 item 3046 item 3087 I think they need a large scale of rework and consideration on ADC's items build in order to change/make healthier meta. Otherwise it's better to keep how it has been.

PS: I have to say something is wrong with that statikk siv magic damage. I used ADC a few times, and I have noticed that I dealt so much magic damage more than my support. I have a lot to complaint because it has just so much problems in this season.

Bârd1 votes

Ranged carries aren't unpopular in Dota, they're just not completely dominant over melee carries.

  • Drow
  • Morphling
  • Venge (off meta)
  • Sniper
  • Luna
  • Gyro
  • Lone Druid
  • Troll
  • Clinkz
  • Weaver
  • Medusa
  • Terrorblade
  • Silencer (off meta)
  • Dark Willow (off meta)
  • Bane (off meta)

Hell, that's not even counting the ranged carries that go mid or offlane primarily.

Sõna2 votes

According to the list you mentioned. 1st and 2nd positions can be applied on them. Some of them could be 4-5th position like Bane or Vengeful Spirit. If you force those "hero" to be like AD Soraka, it could work but it heavily relies on their team's two supports. In the end they could still work because item choices are vast.

But what happened to League? I don't know if I should still pick the champion I love and make my team rage on me because I would be useless? Some champion doesn't even have a fixed role, Mordekaiser? or the all-5 position Teemo?

Back to the original topic ,I meant,do they not see the problem of how public talk about the stopwatch? or ADC items being too cheap ? They have put up the meta of stopwatch successfully, but they don't realize it could be cancerous at the same time.

If they are going to change some botlane meta forcefully, I don't know. Probably it's time to leave before it turned into chaotic. I have been patient since pre-season and now it's February.

Bârd1 votes

Carry Bane is hilarious, don't act like you haven't tried it.

+660 damage is good, even if only for the memes.

But yeah, changing the meta is not going to be easy. A marksman and a support has pretty much been ingrained into League's playerbase as the only possible lane (except Ziggs and Morde).

I foresee chaos. Maybe they implement a league equivalent to poor mans shield (at best) or BKB (at worst), who knows.

Sõna1 votes

I didn't act. It's mostly because all of the heroes there could be viable in almost 1-2 positions.

Radiant Seraph1 votes

Dark Willow can be played as a carry? Am I missing something here?

Bârd2 votes

She has the lowest base attack time in the game, second only to Alchemist with ult on.

On top of that, she has a pseudo-slark ult in Shadow Realm to defend herself with, and Hurricane Pike is great on her.

Oh, and 200 attack speed at level 25 is nice.

SwiftKitten883 votes

i dont mind adc being not lane.. what i dont like is them being able to do every other freaking lane as well and still be better at it. (not that they are this particular patch mind you.. but there are times...)

Cowgirl Ed2 votes

thanks for your input im sure riot will consider their thoughts once again after they read your post

Pika Fox2 votes

ADCs can function elsewhere. The biggest reason ADCs go bot is because mages scale better with levels and roam better, so the faster levels and equidistant mid lane is better suited for them. ADCs win most match ups mid, and were played mid for the longest time.

The only real reason the map is set up with 1 top 1 mid 2 bot 1 jung with the adc/supp bot roamer mid etc is largely because its the most optimal setup for gold and level distribution.

Whoever scales with levels and has the best roaming power goes mid

Whoever can operate best in the jungle goes jungle, as it leaves another lane open for solo xp and gold, and doesnt waste potential income

ADCs need gold income the most, and generally are fairly risky, so they take a lane that gives them as much gold income as possible. Given the side lanes are longer, theyre paired with another champ to keep them alive if ganked, and help them focus on CSing. They need gold more than anyone else on the team to end the game.

Supports operate off little income, so whatever is useful at low gold takes this role.

Solo lane is whatever rounds out your team best and can handle the most dangerous lane.

2 bot 1 top exists because dragon is the better early contest objective.

So, if you want something other than an ADC bot, youd need to solve why we put people in these places. Ziggs and Azir can actually take bot lane really well, since they can pressure objectives really well and take on that role. Which leaves mid open to an ADC that can potentially roam decently since ADCs can counter most mids pretty well.

DragonShea2 votes

Mordekaiser

KennysDreamGirl2 votes

(brand/zyra)? I'm fine with cancer like this never being able to support

Kotex2 votes

I for one would like to see a return to the old meta before botlane WAS exclusively ADC + Support. Back when your team's adc would be played mid and you wouldn't go "oh well i guess we have two adcs now because we HAVE to have an ADC botlane regardless of having an adc mid"

Zertryx2 votes

Honestly i hope that BOT lane becomes more than Marksman, because i love playing Marksmen in other lanes i just hate playing them bot v.v, but as of right now because we already get 1 marksman on the team bot lane its harder to justify taking a second marksman else where as then you lose out on either a tank or a mage.

As a Teemo player (yes he is a marksman / assassin) when i play him top we end up losing out on a tanky character, but if we were able to play that bruiser / tank bot lane it could work out so much better. Same with quinn, i like playing her top or mid, even Cait, sivir or Ezreal mid is fun to do or Lucian top (as he has the mobility that teemo does to avoid being ganked in a longer lane).

i feel people think riot wants to REMOVE Marksmen 100% from bot, but no that ISN'T what they ment, what they want is for the FREEDOM to play those marksmen in other lanes (or to not NEED one) for a team comp to still work and function. This doesnt mean that it wouldnt be Viable to still play a marksman bot, it just leaves the option open to create new team comps that can function and compete.

Acheron161 votes

Yet when people take marksman to anywhere but bot people complain to no end. Bring Quinn, Vayne top and people will bitch and moan like you wouldn't believe. Not so long ago, Graves being jungle was broken, despite him being balanced to be balanced at the cost of being unable to lane.

People want to bring other shit bot lane, yet massively complain when ADC's, let alone Supports, are brought into other lanes.

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

There's just no way to make it work. Not without breaking each and every other lane into little splinters.

ADCs are prevalent because of the inherent nature of their class. They're the safest, most efficient way to take a turret. Even the faster turret-takers (Such as Nasus, Yorick, and Diana) are generally considered worse, because they're not as safe at taking them. Range+Attack speed is the safest and fastest way to take a turret. Even if you can output higher DPS (either through the AA-reset and boosts of Yorick and Nasus's Q, or through Diana's Nashor's Tooth and passive giving more AS and damage on autos), you can't do it as safely, because you're melee.

Supports are botlane because they inherently, as a class, cover the weaknesses of an ADC. They give them survivability once engaged upon, something that they generally don't have, and they give them a method to engage, something they also tend to lack.

Anything, anything at all, that can be melee and match an ADC's safety and speed in turret-taking is going to absolutely dominate top and mid. There's just no way to prevent it.

You doubt me? Well, here's your example: Yasuo.

A perfect champion, the board's prayers answered. A melee champion that can easily fight in botlane. One that can take turrets as fast and as safely as a marksman, but is melee. He has the tools to fight in botlane against range, because his W is made for that. He has the ability to close through (or escape the turret's range) with his E.

And he's also one of the most circle jerked champions on the boards. Not a week goes by without someone complaining that he's OP. Even after he was nerfed repeatedly after that fiasco.

Mark my words. Every single non-marksman non-support that gets balanced for botlane will be broken. Every last one. We'll end up with a dozen Yasuos.

Sire Hippington2 votes

The only way i see this getting done is by adressing ADCs, and i somehow doubt that riot is going to do that. ADC+support not only dominates or atleast is save in any matchup and work well in thw 2v2 lane, they also scale absurdly strong into lategame, waaaaaaaaaaay harder than any other class with only a few exeptions like azir. They provide the by far highest dps, and also the by far most reliable while beeing pretty save, while also haveing the best sustain, highest objective dps and best siegeing...they are simply gods if they get to lategame which makes it hard to get other champs filling their spot without beeing busted one way or another.

LOSINGISMYPRIDE1 votes

One point i would say the map is actually just inverse and this is actually why i think champion can play everylane they just need to help of something strong other than real support and i mean something more aggresive . So if darius adc and mord adc or yasuo adc work i still think there is a place for other champion to rivalize against the bot lane .

Sasogwa1 votes

{quoted}

One point i would say the map is actually just inverse and this is actually why i think champion can play everylane they just need to help of something strong other than real support and i mean something more aggresive . So if darius adc and mord adc or yasuo adc work i still think there is a place for other champion to rivalize against the bot lane .

The thing is so far, melees botlane have only worked when they had absolutely unfair mechanics, like mordekaiser's W passive granting more exp than he should.

And those kind of mechanics are bad to the game. Botlane gets way too much influence. They're supposed to be one lane worth of gold and exp, yet they gain much more than they should. Not only is the exp repartition not 50/50 but more, the free gold generated by supp items, the fact adc items are cheaper than they should, and the tower first blood gold usually taken bot, as botlane tower does not have a fortification buff (to be fair, that solved the problem of laneswapping and toplaners double jungling having 3 cs at 10 min in competitive) makes botlane get so much gold and exp for free.

But still, people wonder why botlane is the center of attention, while they're getting so much free resources it doesn't even make sense. Why should they be as strong as other laners when they're consuming less resources on the map? (since they're at least sharing bot exp). It's not fair. And a change granting more resources to other champions than adc wanting to botlane (which seems to be the only way to make anything else than adc+supp viable there), is not gonna make it any more fair.

LOSINGISMYPRIDE2 votes

I think the big problem with marksman is that the identity of a carry is too defined to their class . In dota you can have melee and range hero who can do the same job and has really different range and kit . For example sniper can have up to 1100 range , medusa can split shot her attack from 700 range , weaver have 400 range but has shukichi who make him invisible and gain maximum movement speed for a short duration , shadow fiend has shadow raze from three distance to clear wave etc or if you go into melee you get juggernaut who has inserted crit , magic immunity ability and a ult who make him untargetable , slark who steal stat and convert them into agility , phantom assasin who has a dash and crit for 450 % damage and anti-mage who has a blink and burn the mana of its opponent . Theyre are not similar in any point and can all be played in every lane or in the jungle because the jungle is a ressource of goal for everyone , you can even pull camp so you can stack jungle monster and get more gold for your future carry etc . League kinda work like you put a champion into a ecosystem where you make sure your champion will flourish so they make it so easy to snowball and get gold that in the end your ability are actually worthless as a adc . You will just click them to the death and that it .

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

I&#039;m sorry for being n&eacute;gative, but Honestly... We&#039;re gonna build a new botlane and make the adc mains pay for it, it&#039;s gonna be great ! No. No, it&#039;s not. It&#039;s never gonna happen. Do you really think you&#039;re gonna be able to change botlane to include anything else than adc&#039;s? I guess you at least know why the repartition of roles is as it is right now: adc&#039;s and support not only complement themselves extremely well, they also beat pretty much every other combination in lane, while having great synergy with this lane setup: adc&#039;s scale extremely well with gold and less with levels, supps have great kits that dont need a lot of resources (gold or exp) to work well.

How are you gonna make that Work? Do you plan on changing every other champion&#039;s scaling and completely fuck their balance state in other lanes to have them somewhat work botlane ? How are you gonna do for nonsupport melees? Make targon melee-only and broken overpowered, something along the lines of mordekaiser passive, aka higher exp revenues ? You know that&#039;s gonna either make melees dominate botlane, and/or make tank melee supps just way better than everyone else at the expense of enchanters or mage-like supps (brand/zyra)?

I don&#039;t see it ever working especially since adc&#039;s and supps have been ridiculously powercreeped through reworks,buffs to kits and itemization. It&#039;s like an impossible nasty optimization problem. There are too many constraints, you can&#039;t solve what you wanna do without breaking everything else.

I mean, consider that as a challenge if you wish, it would be literally insane, incredible if you manage to make a lot of other champions work bot. But Honestly, in the current state of things the only thing I can see work bot would be a dps mage with high item scaling and similar characteristics as adc&#039;s.. Maybe azir? But that&#039;s it. I would be really glad if you proved me wrong. Really. But I don&#039;t see any way you could ever do it without breaking the fuck out the game. And when I see the balance is determined by people like ricklessabandon for instance, the silver guy that without ever consulting Yi mains proceeds to do a random meditate change that solves absolutely nothing, realizes his change is garbage, reverts and does a pretty much straight damage buff while royally ignoring the community suggesting highlander reverts and changes like removing alpha Cast time to solve buggy interactions, basically like the champion is not worth his time.. And after those kind of pathetic balances, Riot talks about being able to do an insanely huge project to make botlane more diverse, which is infinitely more complicated... I&#039;m sorry but I can&#039;t trust you. I might be biased, and wrong, sure. Please prove me wrong.

Sincerely, a cynic player.

I agree, ricklessabandon is garbage, but don't suggest he shouldn't be working, that would be mean.

Craft Zeppelin1 votes

Leblanc mains knew they were fked when they knew he was in charge. Not only he is uncreative with cook timer nonsense, but then made her unplayable for a whole year. It is not assassins. It is him that is unhealthy for the game.

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