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A Modern Karma with two Mantra Charges?

SilverSquid··17 votes·1,656 views

Heads Up - Before We Do This

CAN YOU STOP TRYING TO REWORK KARMA? No. While I do agree, that Karma is balanced in terms of power, her thematics, depth and distinctiveness are horrible. This wouldn't be nearly as bad, if she hadn't originally performed well on these. If Riot doesn't adress her, it means they either see no reason for it or have no idea what to do with her. Instead of complaining I am trying to contribute constructively. Don't like it? Please move along!

CURRENT KARMA IS FINE Again: she is balanced, but lacks purpose. She is not a good champion for beginners. She is not a good champion for pros. She is not a good support, she is not a good midlaners. She is not good for Karma mains, because of her low skillceiling (when was the last time you saw a Karma, that showed outstanding skill? Did you ever?). She is exactly lacking what Riot tries to implement with every champion release/rework; thematics, character, depth and unique reasons to pick champions. She is arguably the only champion in the league, that even LOST some over the years.

WHY TWO CHARGES? It was unique to her and made her ultimate more distinct. Currently it feels too close to Rengar's, LeBlanc's and Heimerdinger's ultimates (you gain more of X) instead of a secondary resource or something that makes her kit rich in decision making. The two mantra charges of Karma had other problems, but I think it's worth trying to tackle these issues, instead of taking the lazy route and just removing&forgetting about them.

TL;DR - Because You Guys Are a Busy Folk

  • P - Karma gains bonus AP based on the %hp she (and her allies) lost in the last 5s.
  • R - Karma stores up to 1/2/2/3 stacks of Mantra. Using one charge adds another aspect to the spell. Two charges create an ultimate level of the spell.
  • Q - Skillshot that damages and slows on impact (=same as life)
  • RQ - Targeted AoE that also heals allies in the area.
  • RRQ - Increases size and applies the same effect again after a short delay.
  • W - Links a target to someone of the same team (champions have priority). Enemies receive damage over time and are rooted if they stay in range. They also receive a part of the damage and all the slows their partner suffers. Allies gain resistances as long as the bond persists. They also receive half of the speeds, heals and shields their parnter receives.
  • RW - Enemies: shorter tether range. Breaking the tether stuns both targets. Allies: Increases tether range and duration. Fully transfers all shields/heals/movespeed.
  • RRW - Links all possible targets to the main target.
  • E - Shields and speeds target ally. If the target is tethered, the buffs last until the tether breaks
  • RE - Increases the shield value and damages enemies around the target.
  • RRE - The range of the explosion is increased. If the target was a champion, shielding and damage is increased if it is low health.

Full Values - Double Charge Karma

Passive - Resolve

Enduring pain or seeing her allies suffer strengthens Karma's resolve. She gains 1AP for every 1%hp she has lost over the last 5s. Additionally, she gains half this value for the damage her allies within 1250 units suffer . This bonus is capped at 50/100/150 (level 1/7/13). Champion damage refreshes this timer. The additional power is indicated by three filling bars below Karma's mana.

R - Mantra

Karma can focus her will to change what her spells do. Using mantra enhances the next spell she uses within 8 seconds. Using mantra twice unlocks Karma's full potential for devastating effects. Mantra is learned automatically at lvl1 and can be leveled like other ultimates. Karma gains 1 charge of Mantra every 45/42/39/36 seconds, which is affected by cooldownreduction. She can store up to 1/2/2/3 Mantras at once.

Q - Soulflare

Karma fires a burst of energy that detonates upon hitting an enemy, dealing 80/125/170/215/260(+0.60AP) magic damage to all nearby enemies, slowing them by 25% for 1.5 seconds. Mantra Bonus: Karma unleashes her twindragons, who travel through enemies to target location, where they explode in a 250 unit area, damaging affected enemies as usual, but also healing affected allies for 40/80/120/160 plus 8% (+1% every 50AP) of their missing hp. Double Mantra: Karma empowers her twindragons, to unlock their true power. This increases the size to 250/400/550/700. The whole area explodes after 1.5s, applying the same effect again.

W - Spirit Bond

Karma teaches hardship and compassion, even to the unwilling. A chosen target tethers to a nearby (500) member of the same team, prioritizing champions. Enemy targets suffer 45/90/135/180/225(+0.75AP) over 2s (5 ticks). If they do not leave a range of 900, they are rooted in place for 1s. For the duration of tether and root, enemies suffer all the slows and 10/12.5/15/17.5/20% (+1% every 50 AP) of the damage their partner must endure. Tethered allies gain 10/15/20/25/30 bonus resistances for the duration and also receive 50% of all the shields, heals and movementspeed buffs their partner receives. Mantra Bonus: Channeling her Mantra allows the effects of her Spirit Bonds to be become unavoidable. The maximum range of enemy tethers decrease to 800/700/600/500. However, if the enemies leave the tether range, they are stunned for 1s. The tether range for allies is increased to 1100/1300/1500/1700 and the duration increased by 1s. They also share heals, shields and movementspeed buffs at full value. Double Mantra: Karma ensures that every creature learns about hardship. The tether will form with all possible targets instead (enemies can only be stunned once, heals and shields are shared as if they affect only 1 target -> Soraka will not heal a fully tethered team x5/).

E - Inspire

Karma inspires a nearby ally, shielding them from 80/110/140/170/200(+0.50AP) damage for 4s and grants 60% bonus movementspeed for 1.5s. If the target is tethered, the buffs instead lasts for the duration of the tether. Mantra Bonus: Karma rewards hardship and challenges those preying on the weak. The shield value is increased by ** 30/60/105/150(+0.3AP)**. After a short delay, the shield errupts, dealing 60/120/210/300 (+0.6AP) magic damage in 450 units around the target. Double Mantra: Karma focuses even more on driving away those who hurt others. If the target was a champion, the damage and shield increases by 1% for every 2%hp the shielded target is missing. Additionally the erruption size is increased to 450/550/650/750 units.

Skill Discussion

P - New Old Passive?

Karma's current passive doesn't reward Karma propperly for assisting allies (RE does not interact with it). Thematically it also doesn't make sense, that Karma profits from hurting others. The old passive made more sense and had a karmatic spin to it. This version should bring back the old feeling, be more interactive and work better with her team and still make sense in duo lanes. Additionally, with a visual indicator below Karma's mana, both Karma and her enemies should have a better time playing around Karma's power.

R - Going back to 2 Mantra charges.

The old double Mantra had problems of appearing weaker than it was. It didn't give Karma a "game changing" feeling. The current version solved this, but didn't feel like an intricate "secondary resource system" anymore, that needed wise decision making or saving up. This can easily be solved by EDYinnits idea of letting abilities be "double charged", which restores Karma's uniqueness and still keeps her power in check and obtainable. Especially since her second charge only unlocks at lvl6; this makes Karma's power curve more in line with other champions, while still giving her laning experience a unique spin.

Q - What was that about twin dragons?

This actually uses the "twin dragons" from her lore now - twice (duality effect and double proc)! With granting Karma a tool to hit enemies behind minions/champions, she should also become more consistent in power, even if it comes at a cost. A heal that you can wiff or become double effective if it hits as many allies/enemies as possible is also unique in LoL.

W - Tethering for reals now

Currently, her tether feels thematically boring. If this is supposed to link people spiritually, it utterly fails in conveying that. I tried reintroducing this feeling, while making it a good tool for Karma. Poking enemies via the minion wave might proof annoying, but the damage is nerfed and it's easier to avoid than current W (there is no speedy Karmzales chasing you). The mantra'd version also has the thematic element of "Karma always catches up to you". If you run from your destiny, it will only hit you harder (stun instead of root). In terms of skillchecks, this can be used as a damage amp, when hitting two tethered enemies with her Q. For support Karma, this doubles as a tool to heal allies that do not position propperly, and a way of shielding two allies at once. This, however comes at the cost of a shorter shield duration, but possible increased speed duration. The ultimate version replaces current RE as a catch tool, with more team interaction though (Poppy ulting the initial target? Alistar headbutting it? Many lols will be had!).

E - Gimme dat shieldbomb, dammit

Basic E is mainly the same. Just some more interactions with W. The single-mantra version is mainly the old shieldbomb, with a delay, in a smaller radius. The old RE AoE shield and speed is moved to RRW+E, which grants the same movementspeed for longer and also more shield, but it takes twice the spells and can fail on a sloppy engage (people have to walk as a unit). RRE and her passive will make Karma a horror for assasins, at least in terms of damage. Her CC is still abysmal, so at least she cant lock them down, like other supports would. Truly, in mage fashion, she just packs a punch, but even more so, when supporting injured allies.

FANtasies fullfilled?

I have tried to integrate everything old Karma was loved for (ally tether, team heals, bait passive, mantra charges) into what most people love of her current kit (team spedup, pokemage, shiny animations). Noteable exceptions: Karma's fans, her lvl6 abilities, tether touching damage and her long-range-poke-burst-damage spell (RQ). Short note on those: I love her fans, but they just won't fit in her kit in any way, no matter what I do. Her lvl6 abilities were good at conveying her enlightenment, but giving her lvl6 abilities and my double mantra version would mean she gets mantra for free, which is too much power. Tether touching damage was really unique, but just won't work on a squishy mage, without forcing the rest of her kit to make up for it. And whoever enjoys shooting RQ all day long.... go tongue-punch a cactus, you buffoon! This playstyle is one dimensional and cripples the rest of her kit. It's just damage that goes nowhere. If you like dealing 80% of a squishies hp from 2 miles away, go play Lux, she does it better (AND has better counterplay patterns).

Comments, criticism and suggestions appreciated. Rioters who tell me what's wrong with this approach are appreciated the most. And witty jerks always have a place in my heart.

Thanks for reading :)!

PS: Feel free to brainstorm on what a Karma with two charges could look like instead.

PPS: FOR ALL PEOPLE WHO THINK KARMA IS BETTER OFF WITHOUT 2 CHARGES... could you explain why? Because I've never seen a good argument for it, but there seem to be enough people believing this, so there must be one? I am curious!

38 Comments

IxtaliKing4 votes

I think it's a good idea because it makes sense, that kit actually reflects her theme and brings something to the game which isn't there. Good luck with the thread though, I know you're aware Karma threads don't typically bear fruit.

SilverSquid3 votes

Eh, you know me. As long as I have ideas, I will keep bringing them forth. Eventually something will happen.

Besides, the purpose of this was just to put down what came out of my discussion with Nova, and I felt quite happy with it (I was playing around with double charge changes for a month). And I thought, maybe some people will enjoy reading this too, if I wrap it up nicely. I am glad some did!

And with the follow up discussion I can spread more awareness for Karma, exchange further ideas, meet new people and learn about different views. It's a win-win, really.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

It was unique to her and made her ultimate more distinct.

It made her feel like her abilities didn't do anything without mantra and were only slightly above average with it.

SilverSquid3 votes

Yes, sadly uniqueness doesn't necessarily mean "no problems" or "feels good". But hey, that's why I used today's base abilities.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

Yes, sadly uniqueness doesn't necessarily mean "no problems" or "feels good". But hey, that's why I used today's base abilities.

It's weird that you want Karma to have a lot of problems and feel like crap.

SilverSquid6 votes

"Old base abilities felt boring." "That's why I didn't use them :)" "You want Karma to feel boring."

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/starpolar/images/c/c6/What_am_i_reading.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150607160438

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

"Old base abilities felt boring." "That's why I didn't use them :)" "You want Karma to feel boring."

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/starpolar/images/c/c6/What_am_i_reading.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150607160438

Do you honestly think giving Karma 2 and 3 mantra charges will not lead the balance team to need to eventually bring her back to that state?

SilverSquid5 votes

Short answer: No

Long answer: Base abilities are weaker than old Karma's but more interactive (not boring). Mantra cooldown is longer, so mantra'd abilities can be more powerful. Double mantra means double the CD, so it can easily have the power of a normal ultimate, so spending two mantra's can "feel" powerful.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Short answer: No

Long answer: Base abilities are weaker than old Karma's but more interactive (not boring). Mantra cooldown is longer, so mantra'd abilities can be more powerful. Double mantra means double the CD, so it can easily have the power of a normal ultimate, so spending two mantra's can "feel" powerful.

If that logic was true, they wouldn't have needed to redesign Karma to begin with. Adding the double charge option is all upside to being able to spread out your charges and that versatility needs to come with a cost. Her double charge would need to be much weaker than normal ultimates simply because she has 3 options. Single charges would need to be garbage relative to double charges or else double charges would be useless, and if single charges are worthless then you've simply made her mantra into the exact same way it works now.

SilverSquid3 votes

Old Karma had a lot of problems. She had a winrate of 37% for multiple patches, which puts her into the top 10 of lowest winrates ever, but for longer than anyone else in the top 10. She was also lacking meaningful counterplay. A rework WAS necessary. However, both Riot and I agree, that it was a success in terms of gameplay and a failure in terms of thematics. Riot admitted, that if they reworked her today, they would've done it differently.

Rioters are just humans. They make mistakes, they learn, they change. I do not blame them. I try to work with them.

Yes, being able to spread charges and having 3 ultimates DOES come at a cost; it costs you your base abilities. No matter what you choose, you will always only have 2 base abilities and 1 ultimate. Balancing single charges vs double charges is another matter and depends a lot on values. I am not a game designer though, so don't rely on my laymen's theoretical approach. But it's simple: first charge adds another "aspect", "utility" or "duality", whereas double charges add "power" and give you more of the same. With multi-use abilities your estimation of how much power you need in which spell should force you to decide whether one charge is enough and the other can be saved up (or used on another spell), or two are needed (if you even saved them up to begin with).

This is very different to her current playstlye, that needs you to hit enemies (RQ is correct 90% of the time) and not think about how to spend your mantra wisely.

Sire Hippington4 votes

I never had that feel. Karmas abillitys always felt good to use on their own for me, and the two charges allowed more depth as you would rather frequently decide which spell to mantra, rather than once in a while noticeing that once again R-Q is the best option....

Karmas problem was that she was really opressive if used well, as she got no counterplay. However, this isn't the case with her cureent kit so OPs sugestions should work quite well.

SilverSquid2 votes

TO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO THINK KARMA IS BETTER OFF WITHOUT 2 MANTRA CHARGES

could you explain why? There seem to be enough of you, but I have never seen an argument for it. I am really curious!

ItemsGuy2 votes

Let's take a look at his one first!

+Definitely think that having multiple Mantra charges on Karma is important (both in terms of distinctness and allowing Karma to have the possibility of an element of duality).

-On the other hand, the properties of QWE kind of defeat the purpose of that flexibility; instead of getting to choose to do a big defensive ability and a big offensive ability, you get two smaller defensive/offensive hybrids (except in the case of RRW -> Q/E, which is her only "extreme"); the choices are there, but aside from nuance, they largely feel the same.

+Being able to double-up on an ability's bonuses adds power in a very clear way, providing a nice element of variance (double R is allowed to feel really good because of its increased cost) - the difference between a non-Mantra'd ability and a double Mantra'd ability would make it feel like Karma is really letting loose when she decides to play her full hand, which feels more like an "ultimate" than her current Mantra.

-I've already mentioned this, but even with a visual indicator, "damage Karma has taken" + "also applies to allies" + "based on % health rather than raw damage" + "only affects the past 5-second window" = a really, really hard to read mechanic. Aside from not giving great feedback on which champion you should actually hit, it would also force not only Karma but every enemy near her to memorize how much damage has been dealt to all of her allies within the past 5 seconds, including knowing when the huge/random spikes of damage happened so they can guess when her bonus is about to sharply drop.

+That being said, a similar mechanic wouldn't be impossible. I'd almost recommend something along the lines of it being based around how many allies around her are below half-health, or really anything less crazy and dynamic than "how much % health damage Karma and all nearby allies have taken within the past 5 second window." Perhaps some sort of buff with an internal cooldown that is triggered when the damage her and her nearby allies have recently taken reaches a certain threshold (kind of like a multi-unit Sterak's)? That way, it achieves the goal of her wanting to immediately retaliate to damage in a team-based scenario.

-However, that still comes with the catch of her limited windows of power still not giving enemies a way to make an aggressive play without it being immediately thrown back in their faces, so while it mitigates that pain, it doesn't eliminate it outright. I talk about this a lot, but it's why Braum's shield can only block for a few of his allies from a limited direction, and why Tahm can only eat one ally at a time. This power ultimately needs to be gated by something that hopefully isn't just the passive's effectiveness, so an internal cooldown might be a good place to start.

+Although it can be a bit redundant at times (with both a tether link and lots of AoE effects), this Karma does seem to have a strong strategic niche of wanting to be in fights involving a lot of allies and enemies at the same time. Enemies who would want to mitigate her strategic power would then have the option of trying to split her team up by going after multiple objectives at once, splitpushing, bringing guys like Gragas who can manually split her team, etc.

~While it does have a strong identity, that identity doesn't really include counter-aggression (beyond her passive, anyway). I wouldn't really say it has to, as her gameplay theme could be more based around the yin-yang duality than the repercussions of [the slightly mis-informed modern interpretation of] "Karma" but that is your decision as a designer.

I might say more about this later, but I want to check out your other one before I pass out!

Alex Sloan1 votes

Karma is by far one of the more fun champions to play IMO the way she is.... BUT, I do like this idea as she falls off pretty hard.

SilverSquid2 votes

Now this is weird.... apparantly 3 people upvoted my post, but 3 people voted against having 2 mantra charges? I am confused... is this the same 3 people? Or did the upvoters not vote on the poll?

Either way, thanks for the answer. I love Karma too, but I reeeeeeeaaaallly dislike what Riot is doing with her currently. I'd enjoy having a propper conversation with them. Or at least with whoever was behind her 5.10 changes.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

She falls off so hard as a Mage and Support

TNHA Baritone1 votes

OR

RQ: Regular Current RQ RQQ: What you said

RW: Regular RW RRW: Heal an ally that you bind to

RE: Regular RW RRE: Slows enemy champions around those that are shielded

GIVE HER IN COMBAT FAN USAGE AND MORE INTRIGUING EFFECTS

IxtaliKing1 votes

RE - Shield bomb* + Rylais = slow. Better than just a slow with no damage.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

Dude Riot would take something core from her if they went through with this claiming she'd be too strong.

"Too strong"

IxtaliKing1 votes

Lol and then we'd just invite them to take a look at the champs they've released in last 2 years and take back that statement. Before 5.10 when she lost her shield bomb, she wasn't op at all, even with Rylais.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

But you can understand how scared I am of them taking out something core. Riot balance doesn't aleays make the best choices. IE: Removing Shield Bomb

IxtaliKing1 votes

Yeah I get what you mean, though I think the shield bomb removal was due to someone not knowing who Karma was before touching her. Karma pretty much lost what was core to her already tbh.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

Is it so hard to just bring it back?

IxtaliKing1 votes

It's possible, you see how they brought back Soraka's mana heal on pbe? There's hope I guess. But if it were up to me I'd just say revert the 5.10 changes, I'd be happy with that.

SilverSquid1 votes

I just realized.... you know who is currently working on Soraka and giving her back the mana heal? Ricklessabandon And guess who worked on Karma for 5.10. Ricklessabandon

I guess I have some words to spare for that guy. Brb, writing something.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

He was the [Explicit] who took away her Shield Bomb?

Notice he didn't go down with the W changes.

SilverSquid2 votes

I strongly assume that he only was allowed to change values, NOT visuals. The RW he proposed would have needed allies to know you are using it. However, RW looks too similar to W, so he couldn't do it (goes against Riots design philosophy on visual clarity). So he went for the nextbest approach that could be achieved with number fiddling; longer CC.

I think he didn't know Karma enough and chose this option hastily. I am writing a big post about this. Should be done in a few hours!

IxtaliKing1 votes

Loool exactly this is what I was saying, it was Rickless, bless him. It's good he's bringing back Soraka's mana heal because a lot of people liked that, but he still owes Karma big time.

SilverSquid1 votes

Hmmm. The idea was, that the first mantra would change what her spells do (so a double effect in lvl1-5 wouldn't feel as oppressive). Or add a "duality" effect to it, like mantra always used to. The second charge was supposed to give her an ultimate feeling, to keep her en-par with other mages.

Is there a reason, why you want it reversed?

Apart from that I find RRW as a single-target-heal a bit underwhelming, even more so if RRQ is an AoE heal. And do you not want the damage on RE back?

Vanjie1 votes

It wasn't even that. They were afraid it was going to proc her passive with the detonating shield. Remove the passive and E back to what it was.

NostolgicSkies1 votes

karmas rework was just a different version of ap ezreal. was a sad day when they reworked her =(

Saianna1 votes

Karma is very versatile support/mage.

Even the slighest though of reworking/buffing her might cause major eruption of shitstorm and OP threads caused of re-balanced Karmas.

SilverSquid2 votes

Maybe one of the reasons, why Riot is reluctant to do anything about her. And even if they would talk to all forum Karma's first, they would still just reach a small percentage of the community.

However, I don't think ignoring her issues makes them go away. Luckily, the are not gameplay related, so only Karma players complain about her murdered identity and about her drowning in irrelevancy. But is that enough to spend the ressources of looking into her and risking the shitstorm you talk about? I dunno. I just wanna have a conversation about it, and maybe some real game designers enlighten me.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

I sent in a ticket about chatting with some designers. I guess we'll have to wait until AFTER the Mage Rework to the "Utility Mage / Support" Rework

Vel'Koz needs a rework (My ass) There's no reason he's on that list. Riot said he's lacking niche. They don't realize people don't play Karma for Mantra's current watered-down spells.

IxtaliKing1 votes

That utility mage rework isn't coming, that's why they put Karma in it, to ignore her like they ignore her threads lol.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

;( yvrito

SilverSquid1 votes

It's so hard to not join in on your cynical mood ._.

SilverSquid1 votes

I sent in a ticket about chatting with some designers. I guess we'll have to wait until AFTER the Mage Rework to the "Utility Mage / Support" Rework

Wait... did they answer already? Or did you just assume this?

To Vel'Koz; I actually can sympathize here. The team dedicated to these "group changes" has different goals to other teams. They don't focus on champions to be "thematically distinct" or "balanced", but to adress why champions in a group are picked. And there is really little reason to pick brand over velkoz or vice versa, if one isn't currently better than the other.

Personally, I would've left this to the players style, but I must agree that propper design should answer why you would pick one champion over the other, not because he is "strong" right now. The marksmen update did a lot of good in this case. I mean, it fucked the live balance team over a bit, with graves and MF, but overall I would consider it a success. If they do something to Velkoz, like they did with Cait or MF, I think everyone will turn out happy.

Karma needs something else. She is not overlapping with anyone anywhere, or with everyone at the same time. She is in an identity crisis, that has nothing to do with what this team is looking into. If THEY ever do her, then at the same time with Morg and Ori. But Riot isn't a single giant blob of people. It's nicely divided and I try to adress another, smaller blob. A sub-blob. If that makes sense? Blob.

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