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How to Bring Karma's Fans back to Her

SilverSquid··28 votes·3,499 views

As always, I will provide a TL;DR at the bottom. Just keep on scrolling. You'll get there eventually.

Hi there, summoners forum people,

Usually, even non-Karma fans admit, that fan-type weapons are cool. Just recently in Fenrir Epsylon's AWESOME THREAD we could see how many of the possible weapons are still unexplored in the league, and also how often it was mentioned that it was a shame that fanweapons were removed from the game. This made me think of what could have happened, if Riot had reworked Karma, but had kept her "fanblades" instead of just going for an "enlightened mage". First, however, we need to discuss something else:

WHY IGNORE HER FANS' FANS AND REMOVE THE FANS?

For every champion to have a weapon, it should actually feel like you are using it when playing him. As such, champions with longer weapons (like Xin or Jarvan) or bigger champions (like Megagnar or Shyvana in dragon form) have a slightly increased attack range. Similarly Wukong's staff can extend for some long ranged bonks and Varus can actually draaaaaaw the bow he uses. The reworked Fiora, as broken as she might be, is very successfull at conveying the feeling of playing with a rapier, dodging out of attacks, lunging forwards, trying to pierce the enemy at an unguarded spot.

Now, what about fanblades?

The thing is, they are very shortranged weapons, that double as blocking and deceptive tools. Karma's old Q - Heavenly Wave tried to translate this into an ingame mechanics. Her spell was actually a cone, about the same shape as a fan. The spell description also told you that she would throw hidden blades from her fans, to make this happen, which conveyed the deceptive power. Overall, Karma's kit was deceptive (bait passive), defensive (shield) and shortranged.

When Riot reworked her, they focused mainly on other aspects, like "Support, Mage, Mantra, Bait-heal, Shielding, Tether". They made very sure to add a lot of counterplay to Karma's new kit, because her old kit was lacking it so gravely. So in Riot manner, they added a skillshot. But how would a skillshot work with fans? Skillshots are longranged, whereas fans are shortranged. Her tether already only worked as a point-and-click ability, otherwise it would be a LeBlanc clone (which it arguably still is, but that's a different story). And her shield couldn't translate any of the fan mechanics, even less her mantra.

So fanblades were scrapped.

WHY SHOULD FANBLADES COME BACK?

Gee, I don't know, they are just cool. Some people just bought old Karma solely for her fanblades. Like seriously, they are such a unique concept that I would love to see what propper game designers could come up with. Unfortunately, I am not, but I can still play around with the concepts a bit, and I'd like to invite you to post your own ideas down in the comments.

Things to consider are: They don't fit current Karma. You can't just slap fans on her and call it a day. Any spell she has must feel like using them. As such, we try to create a shortranged mage (maybe you can go for a fighter? Could work on a fast and fragile one), that has deceptive, defensive but surprisingly hurting components. It may not be blunt in any way. As I think this fits Karma's style just well, I will try to go and rework her old kit, pretending the new Karma has never been made. This frees me up a bit.

Fanblades have a deflecting component, so that's why I will try to work it into her kit. I like the dualistic concept of fans, so I will make sure, that all her abilities have a kind of "double use", that can be used either defensively or offensively, but only rarely or if very skilled, you can use both effects. If she is shortranged she also needs some kind of mobility to work her way towards enemies, but I will refrain from using a gap-closer (league of mobility, anyone?) or hard CC (a fan wielder seems to me like dashing in and out, dancing around someone, playing with them, not cutting someone down in their sleep). Lastly, people also miss the charge system of mantra, so I will take the opportunity of putting it on there.

So, let's do this.

SUGGESTED ABILITIES

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/3/30/Inner_Flame_old.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130316131203&format=webp Inner Flame

Karma finds strength in dire times, either for retaliation or protecting the suffering. Karma gains 1AP for every 1%hp she has lost in the last 5 seconds. She also gains half this amount for the hp lost by allies within 1250 units. This bonus caps at 50/100/150 (@lvl 1/7/13) and is displayed by 3 filling bars below Karma's mana, each representing 50AP. Champion damage refreshes the timer.

This is her old passive, but tweaked, to make it more interactive and visually clearer. Compared to her old passive it gives possibly more AP, but for a shorter amount of time, also interacting with allies.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/b/b5/Heavenly_Wave.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110318012538&format=webp Heavenly Wave

Karma channels spiritual energy through her fans, to heal friends and hurt foes. Karma unleashes a burst of spiritual energy in a cone in front of hear, dealing 60/105/150/195/240 (+ 50% AP) magic damage and healing hit allies for 30/60/90/120/150 + 5% (+1%/100AP) of the targets missing hp. Karma also benefits from this heal if Heavenly Wave affects another champion.

MANTRA BONUS: Karma extends her fans to block incoming projectiles. Projectiles that Heavenly Wave hits are destroyed. Linear skillshots are thrown back in the direction Heavenly Wave was cast, applying its effects as if Karma had cast it. If the spell would apply damage, it uses the damage properties of Heavenly Wave instead.

Right back at you! A good Karma can deflect most projectiles and protect allies behind her, like a Braum would, but for a shorter timeframe. A great Karma can hook a Blitzcrank or Hammer a Poppy. Yes, in theory this spell can deal damage, heal and deflect projectiles at the same time, but getting an enemy, an ally and a skillshot into the small cone happens once a game at best. I've always wondered if skillshot reflection could make it into LoL, but it seems too strong as a base ability and too weak for an ultimate. Karma's mantra seems like a perfect fit.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/0/0f/Spirit_Bond.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110318012610&format=webp Spirit Bond

Karma extends her spirit to bind with another one for 2s. Karma and any tethered ally will gain 40/50/60/70/80% bonus movementspeed when moving toward an enemy or a tethered target (or if you cuddle). Enemies passing the tether receive 50/90/130/170/210 (+50%) magic damage.

MANTRA BONUS: Karma uses her bond to relief suffering friends and teach enemies the meaning of their actions. Allied anchors transfer 15/25/35/45% (+1%/50AP) of their damage received to Karma. Karma transfers 15/25/35/45% (+1%/50AP) of the damage received to anchored enemies. (All before applying resistances)

Chase enemies? Or sprint to a minion behind them and deal some tether damage? Tether to a minion behind yourself, so you can sprint forwards and backwards? Give an ally a safeline to draw him out of trouble? Chase an enemy with your bestest friends? Share some of the pain your ally receives to make him live (yes, this can kill you)? Or let Veigar taste some of his own medicine (yes, this can kill him)? This spell can do it all.... but which one will you choose?

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/a/a2/Soul_Shield.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110318012601&format=webp Soul Shield

Karma channels her energy to protect the weak and punishes those preying them. She shields target ally for 80/110/140/170/200 (+ 50% AP). After 0.5s the shield errupts, dealing 50/90/130/170/210 (+50%) magic damage in a small area around it.

MANTRA BONUS: Karma insists on leaving the weak the fuck alone. The shield increases by 30/90/150/210 (+50%) and increases the radius of the damage. Damaged enemies are also pushed away from the target.

People miss her shieldbomb, so there it is. It fits Karma's close combat style pretty well. It can be used to poke a bit in lane, yes, but gives up your defense in exchange. Also this is literally Karma's only CC and disengage tool. Probably enough to make her good vs assasins. Also a nice trick; push your enemies into your tether and finish them off with your fans for some surprising damage. Hard to pull off tho. Also, don't do a Poppy and push enemies to safety with this. Pls.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/d/de/Mantra_old.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140109024044&format=webp Mantra

Karma can chant mantras to enhance the effect of the next spell cast within 8 seconds. Karma gains 1 charge of Mantra every 45/45/30/30 seconds (affected by CDR) and can store up to 1/2/2/3 of them at once.

1 charge to keep her laning in check, 2 charges to compete with other ults, shorter cooldown to give her flexibility for brawls and third stack to make her actually good in prolonged teamfights. CDR stacking is probably still a must.

TL;DR - Because Who Likes Eye Cancer?

People like fanweapons, so I tried putting them on Karma, pretending this is her first rework.

  • Passive: Karma gains AP based on the %hp lost by her and nearby allies in the last 5s.
  • Q: Damages and heals in a cone. Mantra: Deflects projectiles.
  • W: Karma and tethered allies move faster towards enemies and tether targets. Enemies receive damage from the tether. Mantra: Transfers damage from her to enemies, or from allies to her.
  • E: Shields an ally and then damages enemies around. Mantra: Stronger shield, bigger area and pushes enemies away.
  • R: 1 Charge every 45/45/30/30 seconds, up to 1/2/2/3 charges.

FINAL WORDS

Thanks for reading! Do you like this approach? Would you love to return skillshots and damage back to the sender? Or do you have a better ideas for Karma? Do you want a completely different champion to have fanweapons? Do you have a concept yourself and want to present it? Fire away! I'd love to read it.

Best regards, SilverSquid

PS: Yes, I know, New Karma exists, and I actually like her too (I'm only really missing the shieldbomb). If I could rework her, I would try to combine the best of both Karmas, like THIS.

51 Comments

Evenstar4 votes

Hey, dropping in to let you know I'm still seeing Karma posts from time to time, still busy with with Lunar New Year, but I'm paying attention. Nice to know you and Midnight Karma are being super proactive on this. Riot is still not answering posts but its nice to know the fanbase is still trying hard.

Slack King4 votes

Im actually getting tired of these karma posts, saying she is too weak and needs a rework. Leave her be

SilverSquid11 votes

Actually, it's usually people arguing that she DIDN'T need a rework, lol. As far as I've seen it's mostly about "butchered identity", "lacking thematics", "not karma anymore" and stuff. But more importantly: nowhere in this post did I argue what Karma needs or how strong she is/n't. This one is all about fanweapons and whether you like them! Or where you want to see them!

Vanjie1 votes

In certain aspects she does. Her passive could be moved to her ult as a sub passive. Her R+E is basically accomplished by buying a Iron Locket of Solari. Her W is hardly used and doesn't fit her character at all. Karma's current kit is just bland and doesn't help her as much as she can.

If they do anything, Riot needs to move her current passive to a sub passive in her ULT. Give back her old passive. Replace R+E with her old R+E.

IxtaliKing1 votes

To be honest, if her passive means she can't have her shield bomb back, they should remove the passive entirely. They should remove that passive anyway and give her a more thematic one.

Slack King2 votes

Identity wise she is more karma now, she is about balance and the inner flame. Her rework took away all these things in her kit that all said go aggressive. But no lets give back her shield damage, even though it doesnt fit her identity at all. she had fans when she first came out, that just has to be her identity?

Her current Ult and passive are so nice, and everyone wants to gut it.

Anu3isII7 votes

The most noticeable thing Karma had was the duality every skill had. That was the big "balance" most of the old Karma players loved about.

Her rework didn't make her better at protecting her allies at all, her new Q is as aggressive (if not more) as before, the new shield is as good as the old one only if you use your Mantra on it, and the new tether needs time to be effective.

The old shield is requested because it was an interesting ability, that could protect your allies by a lot of damage, while it was punishing for the "hurting enemies". An eye for an eye, or better said ... Karma.

The fans were "cool" weapons that made Karma very different from any traditional mage. I agree with you that she should have used her inner flame more, but her current Q doesn't really reflect it, neither the duality Karma should have. People like how original the fans are as weapons, and don't understand why Riot removed them instead of playing around them. Between all the characters you have ever seen in video games, tell me how many have you seen with fans and being really amazing? I sincerely have seen only two, one being old Karma.

People don't hate the current Passive and the Ult. Most of the posts I have read about Karma is that her current Passive can be moved to her Ult, while a new one can be easly added.Though, one annoying thing about the current combination of the current Passive and Ult is the fact that her Enchanted Q actually rewards you the most in most of the situations, because it can help achieve the second Mantra faster than the other options. The old idea of stacks of Mantra gave Karma more options that rewarded you if you used them in the right time, not like the current Q, which is almost everytime the most rewarding choice.

You must understand that the fans, the shield bombs and whatever part of the old Karma that some people loved was an Unique element in this game, that made her feel Special. The removal of Unique elements is the same reason some well known reworks look awful. Cassiopeia isn't the same poison master, Fiora (LeBaguette) received a partially weird look, and don't make me remind you how much we fought to get back her old "Unique" hair style.

Uniqueness doesn't represent the identity of a champion, but it is a part of it.

Slack King1 votes

{quoted}

The most noticeable thing Karma had was the duality every skill had. That was the big "balance" most of the old Karma players loved about.

Her rework didn't make her better at protecting her allies at all, her new Q is as aggressive (if not more) as before, the new shield is as good as the old one only if you use your Mantra on it, and the new tether needs time to be effective.

The old shield is requested because it was an interesting ability, that could protect your allies by a lot of damage, while it was punishing for the "hurting enemies". An eye for an eye, or better said ... Karma.

The fans were "cool" weapons that made Karma very different from any traditional mage. I agree with you that she should have used her inner flame more, but her current Q doesn't really reflect it, neither the duality Karma should have. People like how original the fans are as weapons, and don't understand why Riot removed them instead of playing around them. Between all the characters you have ever seen in video games, tell me how many have you seen with fans and being really amazing? I sincerely have seen only two, one being old Karma.

People don't hate the current Passive and the Ult. Most of the posts I have read about Karma is that her current Passive can be moved to her Ult, while a new one can be easly added.Though, one annoying thing about the current combination of the current Passive and Ult is the fact that her Enchanted Q actually rewards you the most in most of the situations, because it can help achieve the second Mantra faster than the other options. The old idea of stacks of Mantra gave Karma more options that rewarded you if you used them in the right time, not like the current Q, which is almost everytime the most rewarding choice.

You must understand that the fans, the shield bombs and whatever part of the old Karma that some people loved was an Unique element in this game, that made her feel Special. The removal of Unique elements is the same reason some well known reworks look awful. Cassiopeia isn't the same poison master, Fiora (LeBaguette) received a partially weird look, and don't make me remind you how much we fought to get back her old "Unique" hair style.

Uniqueness doesn't represent the identity of a champion, but it is a part of it.

The new shield is better than the old shield by far Old karma was terrible at protecting allies, now she can protect a team as well as peel her carry

They removed her fans because they didnt make sense to her character. Karma used the fans as weapons, which is the opposite of who she is as a person. It also went against her backstory

Anu3isII1 votes

Old Karma: Active: Karma summons a protective shield on an ally or herself that absorbs damage for 5 seconds.

Shield: 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240 / 280 (+ 80% AP)

New Karma: Active: Karma shields the target ally or herself for 4 seconds and grants them bonus movement speed for 1.5 seconds.

Shield: 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 (+ 50% AP) Bonus Movement Speed: 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60%

Mantra bonus: Inspire's shield overflows with energy, increasing the target's shield and granting them 60% bonus movement speed for 1.5 seconds.

Defiance scales with ranks in Mantra

Bonus Shield: 30 / 90 / 150 / 210 (+ 30% AP)

If you ask me, her new shield in terms of raw stats and scaling is much worse when your job is to protect one ally. Sure, if you count the movement speed bonus, it looks like a decent ability overall, but take into account that Karma:

  1. Was (and still is) played as both Support(Babysitter of Bot lane) and Utility Mage (Mid/Top AP caster). I have always preferred to play her as a Mid Laner (and I still do it) and the difference is huge between the phenomenal shield she used to have and the "I copy Lulu" shield.

  2. She had the old Tether(W) for enchanting somebody's Movement Speed. Compared to her shield, the Tether gave less Movement Speed, but for a far longer duration, making it weaker for engages/fast disengages, but much better for kiting and overall map movement.

  3. Can't use Mantra on her Shield everytime she needs it. If she does it once, then she payed a pretty big price for it (not using Mantra on your Q is one of them...). And at least now you have a shield comparable to the old one!

About protecting and peeling, I agree you that her peeling skills weren't as great, but she had much more power in mid-fights, and, from my point of view, she could protect her allies much better in fights...

Umm... yeah, she uses fans as weapons. If somebody would invade your home, wouldn't you do anything to protect it? That is the case for Karma, who tried to master deadly weapons along perfecting her Magic Powers to protect and Assist her allies. I would give you that they were simple weapons if she didn't enchant them with Healing Powers, inspiring her allies to fight more, even when things seem lost, and if her Mantra wasn't represented by those FLYING FANS AROUND HER, which were so cute <3

About her backstory... I don't really want to get deep into it, because everyone has its own opinion, but from my point of view, she didn't have any contradictory part.

Slack King1 votes

{quoted}

Old Karma: Active: Karma summons a protective shield on an ally or herself that absorbs damage for 5 seconds.

Shield: 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240 / 280 (+ 80% AP)

New Karma: Active: Karma shields the target ally or herself for 4 seconds and grants them bonus movement speed for 1.5 seconds.

Shield: 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 (+ 50% AP) Bonus Movement Speed: 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60%

Mantra bonus: Inspire's shield overflows with energy, increasing the target's shield and granting them 60% bonus movement speed for 1.5 seconds.

Defiance scales with ranks in Mantra

Bonus Shield: 30 / 90 / 150 / 210 (+ 30% AP)

If you ask me, her new shield in terms of raw stats and scaling is much worse when your job is to protect one ally. Sure, if you count the movement speed bonus, it looks like a decent ability overall, but take into account that Karma:

  1. Was (and still is) played as both Support(Babysitter of Bot lane) and Utility Mage (Mid/Top AP caster). I have always preferred to play her as a Mid Laner (and I still do it) and the difference is huge between the phenomenal shield she used to have and the "I copy Lulu" shield.

  2. She had the old Tether(W) for enchanting somebody's Movement Speed. Compared to her shield, the Tether gave less Movement Speed, but for a far longer duration, making it weaker for engages/fast disengages, but much better for kiting and overall map movement.

  3. Can't use Mantra on her Shield everytime she needs it. If she does it once, then she payed a pretty big price for it (not using Mantra on your Q is one of them...). And at least now you have a shield comparable to the old one!

About protecting and peeling, I agree you that her peeling skills weren't as great, but she had much more power in mid-fights, and, from my point of view, she could protect her allies much better in fights...

Umm... yeah, she uses fans as weapons. If somebody would invade your home, wouldn't you do anything to protect it? That is the case for Karma, who tried to master deadly weapons along perfecting her Magic Powers to protect and Assist her allies. I would give you that they were simple weapons if she didn't enchant them with Healing Powers, inspiring her allies to fight more, even when things seem lost, and if her Mantra wasn't represented by those FLYING FANS AROUND HER, which were so cute <3

About her backstory... I don't really want to get deep into it, because everyone has its own opinion, but from my point of view, she didn't have any contradictory part.

I think youre forgetting the fact not only does the mantra shield enhance its effect massively on one ally, your entire team gets a speed boost and regular shield.

Lets put damage back on her shield, fine now she maxs her biggest defense tool and gets damage out of it and wave clear. That seems balanced

Her old tether was garbage for one reason, Mobility creep, without a sure fire way to lock someone down they just walk away or walk onto your carry

I still disagree with her using weapons at all, her and her people were peaceful spiritual peeps. Her using blades to inflict harm seems beneath her

Anu3isII1 votes

Yes, her old tether was really bad from hundreds of points of view, and it totally deserved to be reworked.

Unfortunately for Karma, even her current lore shows us that she had to face the reality: If you want to protect something, you must do everything for it. The old lore specifically mentioned that she crafted them, turning them into weapons. Desperate times require desperate measures.

And I have the same vision as you: Karma shouldn't degrade herself in killing people... She was peaceful, if she had known how much the Ionian-Noxian war would affect her, she would be disgusted by her own actions.

Also, if you are interested in one more thing Riot actually posted (it is not cannon anymore because Rito... I don't know why...)

Candidate: Karma Date: January 28th, 21 CLE

OBSERVATION Karma emerges into sight on the wings of prestige. From the topmost tip of her mantle to the lowest hem of her gown, she is the perfect picture of Ionian class. She pauses, poised at the threshold, admiring the delicate ornamentation that League artisans crafted into the Great Hall. Karma has seen the Great Hall on numerous occasions, but her eyes manage to well with appreciation in every instance. As she crosses the hall, grace drips from every movement, and she wades in an air of distinction.

At the marble doors, she touches the frame delicately. They part gently for her, as if they were trying to match the elegance of her motion. She vanishes through the archway, and the room left behind feels emptier than it had before she entered.

REFLECTION The meticulous artistry of the Institute always reminded Karma, by curious contrast, of the chaos of open war. Every inset groove was, to her, the face of a lost friend. She imagined what her fallen comrades might have thought of this comparison when a horribly familiar, acrid stench stung her nose. She turned in time for a brilliant green explosion to fill her view. She swept her steel fans against the blast, piercing a hole in its expanding wave. Her reaction, though immediate, only diminished the force. She focused her senses inward as air whipped past. Her form was steel while her hair and clothes swirled in the chaos. When the blast subsided, her once-immaculate locks hung in limp disarray and her dress was torn and caked with soil.

There was something unusual about the soil – a pungent smell. Blood. She looked up, bracing for the worst. Nonetheless, she was unprepared for what she saw. No, no...not again. In front of her, as far as she could see, lay the strewn bodies of Ionian villagers. Another green explosion in the distance sent cadavers arcing through the air. The taste of salt stung her lips. She didn't even notice the tears tracing down her cheeks. She saw a shoe, much too small for any adult, raised from the ground ahead of her. A small leg extended beneath it, disappearing into the soil.

Karma snapped upright, raking the air around her with both fans. Tears and soil matted with blood flew away from her. When all settled she was transformed, emotions absent, eyes dark but calm. She was powerful, noble, the picture of dignity against a backdrop of unimaginable horror.

She strode with purpose towards a cackling figure in the distance. Its silhouette was one she could not forget: Zaun's insane chemist, Warwick. He stood behind a glowing control panel atop an armored, beetle-shaped vehicle. He gesticulated with zeal as each explosion bit the Ionian landscape. He was human, although the lacking lycanthropy did not register with Karma. She was beyond thought, beyond emotion; ready to do what she must to stop what was happening in front of her.

Zaunite shock troops assembled before her, blocking her path. A wave of her fan and they were gone, their cries muted by the roaring gust. Warwick noticed her with glee. His fingers danced across the controls and a cannon extended from the transport beneath him. It fired a sickly green stream of liquid into the air above her, where it burst like a liquid firecracker. She thrust one fan into the air above her head, blowing back a portion of the falling ooze, though far less than she'd expected. Drops rained down around her. Where the drops touched her skin, they sizzled and burned through it. Karma cried out in agony.

"Delicious isn't it, Duchess?" Warwick exclaimed. "I call it an Aerial Corrosive Mine. The acid is several times heavier than mercury, so your wind techniques won't protect you."

Karma crumpled to the ground, the acid boring into her flesh. She pushed herself up to a cross-legged meditative pose, blinked back the searing pain, and uttered a healing mantra. The pain lessened, although it still consumed her.

"It's not meant to be fired into the air that way. I just wanted you to savor the taste. I'm afraid when I fire it directly at you, your delicate ‘weapons' will be useless."

A tinny voice chirped something indiscernible from the control panel. Warwick listened for a moment, and then nodded his head. "I would truly love to play with you some more, Duchess, but there are more Ionians in need of my services." Warwick fiddled with the controls and the cannon lowered, aimed squarely at her. "This ends now."

Karma blinked. Her mind was sluggish, flooded with frantic damage reports from nerves all over her body. A single thought floated to the surface of her awareness.

I've failed.

Just as she consigned herself to join those scattered around her, a blinding ray of light descended from the heavens, landing squarely on Warwick. He screamed as his skin melted away. His body contorted, muscles bursting outward. His head and limbs stretched, yanking joints apart and forming new ones. Long claws cut through the tips of his fingers and toes. He wrenched forward, then back, and when the spasms ceased his spine was long and hunched. His high-pitched wail suddenly turned to gravel, and blue hair stabbed out from every pore of his body. He fell to the ground in a heap. The light subsided.

Not far from him, a new form lay in the mud. Karma fought her way to her feet, acid still eating into her, and stumbled to the form. There in front of her laid Soraka, the spiritual icon of her people. The Starchild had lost the celestial radiance which characterized her transcendence. She lay staring upward, her expression vacant.

Reason overpowered remorse, and suddenly Karma knew she was seeing an illusion.

Soraka's gaze turned to Karma, her eyes piercing her soul for answers. "Why do you want to join the League, Karma?" The voice was sad, resigned.

"Is this vision not enough?" Karma gestured all around them. The pain was suddenly gone. "This isn't really over. These things never really end. All we can do is remain vigilant and try to protect those we love."

"Always one for a speech." Soraka smirked. "How does it feel, exposing your mind?"

"There is nothing on my mind that I wouldn't happily share with you. How does it feel, knowing what we suffered, what you chose to ignore?"

Karma was suddenly alone in the antechamber of the Institute, the doors ahead opened to the League. She appraised her clothes, which were as pristine and spotless as when she entered. With an imperceptible shift, Karma summoned her composure and marched onward.

Source:http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Karma/Background

This shows how horrible her experience really was in that war, and how desperate she was. She understood that "the end justifies the means".

PS: I admit that your perspective is cool, and shows that you prefer our Duchess to be a person with a strong soul and inner power, and that she wouldn't actually need those fans. Both concepts are amazing from my point of view, and I respect both of them, as they are really close. I want to make myself understood that her fans aren't her main weapons, her deadliest weapon is her will to maintain balance by doing whatever is needed, using whatever she can, doing whatever she can do until the last stand!

SilverSquid5 votes

More Karma? She doesn't have a "the more you hurt me, the more I hurt you" passive. She actually has a "I profit from hurting others" passive, which doesn't feel karmatic or enlightened at all.

A shield that can hurt and a damagespell that can heal, wonderfully represented the yin-yang feeling to her. Wholeness in all things, you know? She was basically supposed to be a female budda and tried to encompass as much of the related culture as possible.

Her fans were part of her lore.

"She modified her fans into lethal implements, and was tutored by Janna to enhance their effects"

The deceptive, protective, yet hurtful nature of fanblades did fit both her character and playstyle. She was a stern woman with class, that went to war. What kind of weapon would fit her better than fanblades?

Her current passive is okay in terms of gameplay, but thematically doesn't make sense. Her RE not interacting with it is another problem. Her ultimate is okay, but feels too much like Heimer's ult. If Karma is supposed to be all about her Mantra, it just doesn't feel distinct enough.

The current RE at least fits her better as a "leader" type, and the new shield is just a better spell, I will give you that, but don't you dare tell me that this has a "karma" feeling about it. Or the long ranged Aoe-damage-burst-poke-spell. Not karmatic at all... Not dualistic. Not enlightened. Just a generic "unleash" mage. Meh.

And don't even get me started on the thematic aspect of her tether.

Ulquiorra9952 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slack Attack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jlwYrQAE,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-02-15T05:50:22.013+0000)

Identity wise she is more karma now, she is about balance and the inner flame. Her rework took away all these things in her kit that all said go aggressive.

Old Q: does damage and heals when empowered Old W: speeds up allies and damages enemies Old E: protects allies and damages enemies when empowered

New Q: does damage and does more damage when empowered New W: CC's and CC's for longer when empowered New E: Shields and shields for more when empowered

Yeah, they totally improved on that balance/duality thematic she had. I mean, it's not as her new Mantra is uninspired "press R to make your next spell do the same thing it already does with higher numbers."

Slack King1 votes

{quoted}

Old Q: does damage and heals when empowered Old W: speeds up allies and damages enemies Old E: protects allies and damages enemies when empowered

New Q: does damage and does more damage when empowered New W: CC's and CC's for longer when empowered New E: Shields and shields for more when empowered

Yeah, they totally improved on that balance/duality thematic she had. I mean, it's not as her new Mantra is uninspired "press R to make your next spell do the same thing it already does with higher numbers."

Funny you leave off half of her skills Increased AOE/Slow on the q for disengage or engage? Heal in the tether with increased snare duration on the w for baiting an engage or getting someone off you or an adc? Massive teamwide speedboost and shield on the E for disengage or engage?

Duality meaning contrasts, Stillness and movement. Which she now has and didnt have before

SilverSquid3 votes

No. Having a slow and a speedup on the same ability is a contrast. A slow alone isn't. Having damage and a heal in one spell is duality. A root isn't.

Currently Lulu has more duality than Karma. She can speed allies or slow enemies with the same spell. She can hurt enemies or shield allies with the same spell. Overall, she has three slows in her kit, and two hard CC's which can be used offensively and defensively. Lulu is outdoing Karma so hard it's not even funny.

The only reason old Karma was better at duality, because her skills could do opposite things at the same time. damage AND heal speed AND slow shield AND damage

Now tell me how that is less duality than her current kit, I dare you.

Slack King1 votes

{quoted}

No. Having a slow and a speedup on the same ability is a contrast. A slow alone isn't. Having damage and a heal in one spell is duality. A root isn't.

Currently Lulu has more duality than Karma. She can speed allies or slow enemies with the same spell. She can hurt enemies or shield allies with the same spell. Overall, she has three slows in her kit, and two hard CC's which can be used offensively and defensively. Lulu is outdoing Karma so hard it's not even funny.

The only reason old Karma was better at duality, because her skills could do opposite things at the same time. damage AND heal speed AND slow shield AND damage

Now tell me how that is less duality than her current kit, I dare you.

Speed up and slow down isnt duality, stopping and going is duality. So all of lulus slows get taken out Her giving someone hp and knocking people up isnt duality. Theyre not opposites Her turning someone into a chipmunk or speeding up an ally isnt duality

IxtaliKing1 votes

Lol you're over thinking it, the duality is in her aiding allies and hurting enemies. Helping and harming.

Slack King1 votes

{quoted}

Lol you're over thinking it, the duality is in her aiding allies and hurting enemies. Helping and harming.

Thats not even duality, thats just what any utility mage does. Im not arguing for duality, I could care less about it.

But forget it ill stop responding, because to you guys I am wrong and youre right because you say so

Have fun destroying the karma I love fora retarded shieldbomb

IxtaliKing1 votes

There's no need to get upset, this is just a discussion, riot is most likely to leave Karma as she is. The point about duality on Karma is that she had it in single abilities i.e shieldbomb aiding allies whilst hurting enemies.

SilverSquid3 votes

You aren't wrong because we say so. but because you keep contradicting yourself. Also, this "speed up and slow down isn't duality". Yes it is.

  • Yin is characterized as slow, soft, yielding, diffuse, cold, wet, and passive
  • Yang, by contrast, is fast, hard, solid, focused, hot, dry, and active

stopping and going is duality

That's a very narrow way of looking at it. But if you insist: Lulu stops people from doing things better than Karma. And Lulu makes people go faster for longer. Lulu wins again.

Ludovico2 votes

If only Riot´d roll back on changes...

As much as I want to see old Karma again (or at least a compromise) - they way Riot reworks champions (the time they need & their priorities) makes it seem unlikely that we´ll see changes to Karma in the next 2 years.

Healurownbum2 votes

The idea of getting Karma back I'd love that.

But having the dmg and heal on the Q is too strong even if it is based upon hitting at least one friendly champion for the heal to be used. That and Mantra not letting you choose to either heal or deal dmg kinda of takes away the Ying Yang it's always going to be good more you hit the better it is. I liked having to decided to pop my Mantra or not to either heal or deal dmg. It becoming a stronger windwall not sure how to explain this.

I guess I would rather use my mantra to get the other aspect of the spell the other side. Now Q and E both have defense and offense no matter what.

The thing i hate about current Karma is that it doesn't change the spell from an offensive to a defensive spell anymore but just makes it stronger. Expect for maybe W when used to not CC a person but to survive with RW.

Meh i hope you some what understand. Been over this so often been hopeful been waiting for so long for Riot to do anything and all that happened was they moved her even further away from Karma by removing the shieldbomb. Last nail in the coffin sort of thing i guess. that felt like just making damn sure ppl knew she is dead.

Anyways thank you for trying thank you to everyone who stills cares. But again i have learned to not grow attached to anything in League and to not trust Riot when it comes to them saying they will do anything that can to try and keep the champion feel the same. It's late time for bed! (I rly hope some of this made sense <3)

SilverSquid2 votes

But having the dmg and heal on the Q is too strong even if it is based upon hitting at least one friendly champion for the heal to be used.

The value is comparable to Nami's healing wave. A bit harder to apply and less base healing, but more potential.

That and Mantra not letting you choose to either heal or deal dmg kinda of takes away the Ying Yang it's always going to be good more you hit the better it is.

Does it? I thought that all spells having the yin-yang aspect shows that you have to accept the protective and the hurtful element of all her spells, to fully master her.

I liked having to decided to pop my Mantra or not to either heal or deal dmg.

I can relate. But I thought giving her "gamechanging" moments might make more sense, as they all have a karmatic aspect. RQ can turn CC back to you. RW can turn your damage back to you. RE makes you easier to manipulate, the closer you are to her allies.

Anyways, do you have an idea how it could be done differently? If you are interested, you can also check out my other rework, which I like more. Maybe you prefer it too?

The thing i hate about current Karma is that it doesn't change the spell from an offensive to a defensive spell anymore but just makes it stronger. Expect for maybe W when used to not CC a person but to survive with RW.

Yeah, I hate that too. That's why I keep protesting the 5.10 changes so much. It made her more generic to make her scale better. This clearly contradicts Riots design philosophy.... Yet nobody cares? At least an admition would be nice...

Healurownbum1 votes

Hello!

I do think the ability having both dmg and healing at once with a decent base is still to strong no trade off to it. Nami's only this three ppl at best and either it's two heals and a dmg or well you know. And without good AP the bounces after get reduced. So I would be worried that either Q would need a long cooldown or range would be smaller then it was. I remember being able to turn teamfight with one well done RQ on Karma just cause I could heal several ppl and dmg several ppl but it came at a charge of my mantra I at best could do that twice cause of the cooldown on Mantra still being around 11s with max CDR. I think it would just be too strong having both all the time being able to hit more ppl then Nami can and more easily cause it's a cone.

You are right on the whole RQ CC back to you thing it could be awesome but the cooldown would have to be pretty high as it is very strong. It can turn around a whole fight on it's off if done well that plus the Q would I assume still deal dmg and heal. So not just block skillshots and such and reflect them but also heal the ppl you hit and dmg them. (more i speak more of an ass i feel like I'm hating the whole thing which i don't. I just rly want her back you have no idea how badly but it does seem to strong the Q and RQ).

I also see a problem with RW the reflect dmg and transfer dmg, Karma got changed cause she wasn't clear she was not easy enough to understand for both her allies and enemies and this would add even more to an ability they hated already cause ppl didn't know how to play with. (Altho then they added Thresh and his lantern is far worse in my eyes then a a tether that freaking slows and speeds up and deals dmg if enemies go through it....)

E seems nice it's what i thought they would do for RE in the rework make it shield and then add a dmg explosion ppl could see happening and avoid add counterplay to it by not making it instant and massive. I threw around the idea of making it not instant and make it pulse outwards like Naut giving ppl the chance to avoid the dmg.

I love the fact you keep trying and the mantra charged spells seem strong and impactful but being able to have 3 at the start of a teamfight seems too much then. A charge comes back every what 18s with max CDR? That does mean you would only have the 3 charges in a team fight but you would be able to charge all your spells no worries no need to pick the best to decided what is needed most.

I hope you see where im coming from and not just bashing the work you put in this all. Just saying what worries me. I rly want my Karma back but i think this has too much power. I get why they changed her the passive was too strong without being clear for the enemy RE being massive AoE dmg without counterplay W not easily understood by both parties. And RQ being very strong teamfight changing ability. I think they could of done a lot better make the RQ heal smaller per ally hit so it wasn't a massive heal. W now with everything done later on in the game (Kalista ult Thresh Lantern and what not stuff ppl need to know about) I think old W can still be used now just last shorter. And having changed RE to not a massive AoE instant burst but something that could be avoided if paid attention too. They could of done better i expected better.

I seen so many awesome idea's and I am so grateful to everyone who is still trying over and over. Just wish Riot didn't instant run away when ever Karma does get mentioned. (I could look at the other rework later if you want...)

SilverSquid2 votes

Nami's ability is point and click. She can reach her second heal very far by bouncing. In a teamfight you will always hit 3 people without risking to expose yourself. Nami can heal herself with no champions around. Nami has a movementspeed buff added to her ability. Really, those abilities have ups and downs. Karma has different pros and limitations, but I don't think they are unreasonable.

I have a ton of reasons why I did use the heal as a second effect for the cone. Put shortly; cone without second effect is too boring, with slow is too oppressive, with speedup it's too easy to kite, with second speedup in her kit it feels stupid, %damage is overused, and nothing really feels dualistic other than the heal. Having 2 charges dumps its power and works awkwardly with ultimate. But maybe you have an idea?

RQ's cooldown is like half that of a normal ultimate, while also consuming a basic spell, which means if you don't use it in a perfect scenario, you will give up your healing and your easiest damage spell. In general it will be less game changing than a braum shield, which lasts longer and can block multiple skillshots, while not even needing good reactions most of the time. His shield has a 10s cooldown and lasts for 4 seconds. With max cdr it has a 1.5s downtime. Compare to the deflection ability, it seems harder to use and more ressource consuming. You have it ONCE every 45s in lane. You can use it every 30-17s in a teamfight, where there are multiple skillshots flying around, that you might need to deflect. It's use is gated by Q, which you then can't use to heal (at least heal yourself if you hit the skillshot).

W didn't give clues to the allies what you wanted to do. My version gives pretty good clues, as it only gives movementspeed in only specific directions. I could've probably removed the damage part, but then it doesn't give you a tradeoff for targeting enemy champions and chasing them. RW would have a different animation than W, with a directional clue and a pulsing animation whenever the tether transferred damage.

None of the new mantras add any damage. They just give Karma more tools. Besides, we know that Old Karma and New Karma both fall off heavily in lategame, so I hoped that a third stack might counteract this. In exchange I made very sure that she would be fairer in lane.

I see your points, I just sometimes wish you used more punctuation^^.

Yeah, check it out! I am convinced that the other rework has more chances of making it (still pretty unlikely though, lol). It works with new Karma and it only has her duality aspects on her mantra (heal for Q, CC for W and damage for E). I also personally like it more, because I don't particularly care for returning the fanweapons to her (I focus on gameplay aspects, not visuals). This rework was the only way I could see fans coming back, and it ignores New Karma completely.... So check the other one^^.

Healurownbum1 votes

I have a very difficult time explaining myself normally in person and in text it's even worse. I'm very dyslexic and other stuff. You seem to have put alot of time effort and love in to it. And all i'm basically worried about is it being a tad too strong.

SilverSquid2 votes

That's okay. You have given me some estimated input, and even more so I value your honest and gentle criticism. I prefer open hearted people over grammatically perfect ones.

Yes, I love her. Or loved. I dunno. There is just no other versatile support mage in league, that I could be proud of to master. Playing Orianna and Lulu just isn't the same....

Healurownbum1 votes

Thank you.

I would just really want her back and rather have her back some what weak then too strong and it not happening cause of that. If you get what i mean :)

I loved her the current one I get bored with after the first 10 to 15m of play cause it is mostly Q spam you are doing and as an support really having different options to mantra or as a mid it does not happen as often as it used.

And with the kit you made you do have to think about when to use what more so then just go R/E it's overall better for the team. R/Q cause you can afford to poke some more before going in. R/W if maybe you require to survive but it's still better to R/E cause if there is even one other person around it does more.

And I did love that Karma was a lot more focused on her team and helping them then she is now she has become a lot more selfish. Something that your kit also changes.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

<3333 Could the Mantra E, Have like idk...a sorta...fatter (if that's the word) / wider shield... visually...

SilverSquid1 votes

I am bad with visuals, but this sounds actually pretty sweet. Why not?

Warden Karma1 votes

Didnt you said Heavenly Wave and Shieldbomb has too less counterplay + Shieldbomb with knockback would "cross" over with Janna? Excuse me if I do not remember correctly.

I just wanted to bump in shortly and say: there is actually a Champion who uses somewhat a fan(blade) as a weapon. Yup. I noticed not so long ago.

To be more exact, its a skin. (Although its arguable if you want to count it as a Fan). He uses the Fans as a weapon plus his Jack in the Box have Fan-Hands. Yeap. Its Shaco.

Masked Shaco.

http://www.lolking.net/models?champion=35&skin=6

Feels weird. :(

SilverSquid1 votes

Oh hey, welcome back!

Didnt you said Heavenly Wave and Shieldbomb has too less counterplay + Shieldbomb with knockback would "cross" over with Janna?

Yes, that is quite correct. I've tried to add counterplay to the shieldbomb, by adding the delay and reducing the range, so people have to actually stand close to minions/champions to be hit. The damage shouldn't be instant either, as it used to be, but should be pulsating outwards, which works better if it doesn't apply a shield too. The Heavenly Wave I proposed isn't mainly for damage purposes. This means that, even if the damage can hardly be prevented (stay out of range), you can prevent the ability from being fully effective by not exposing yourself. In terms of damage, this ability is close to Nami's healing wave.

And finally, crossing over with Janna; yes, this is true. It's kind of a smaller Janna ult with a delay and no heal. I think it's justifyable this way, especially, since it doesn't have the "AoE protection" feeling too with the AoE shield slapped onto it. Personally, however, I still prefer my other rework, that doesn't have all these problems.

I was wondering why you didn't comment there, even though you contributed so much to the final version <3!

I just wanted to bump in shortly and say: there is actually a Champion who uses somewhat a fan(blade) as a weapon.

Shaco has just fancy swords and no gameplay relating to them. But what could a champion look like with those things?

http://orig09.deviantart.net/a93c/f/2011/040/0/d/courtesan_fan_wip_by_tasukigirl-d3976di.jpg

Warden Karma1 votes

Thanks for the comeback ^^

I was wondering why you didn't comment there, even though you contributed so much to the final version <3!

http://orig15.deviantart.net/fc0e/f/2012/184/f/2/league_of_legends___chibi_karma_by_tonnelee-d55v9b4.jpg "Why does my head feel so heavy today?"

Unfortunately I am really busy at the moment :( I try to look up in the forums every hence and then but mostly I can not afford the time for a (detailed) answer or I lack the motivation/Energy. (I read it dont worry and left an Upvote :) )

Shaco has just fancy swords and no gameplay relating to them. But what could a champion look like with those things?

Not direct Gameplay, he uses the Fan in his (critical) Auto Attacks, however. So technically he uses a Fan-blade (Or a Dagger with a Fan like structure on the "blunt side", but its still somewhat a Fan). More Fan than Karma has currently :(

Catastrop1 votes

Yes, so much yes. As much yes as you can fit into TK's Stomach.

Nekusen1 votes

Honestly i like Karma as it is, her passive could be tonned up a bit, but she is anong my favorite supiports.

Also, you made her ult worse with higher cooldown while it isn't reduced by the passive.

BladeSteel2 votes

But you can have more stacks of mantra, like before. It would work on a ammo system...late game you could have 3 stacks of mantra. so overall its a buff to her late game.

Nekusen1 votes

{quoted}

But you can have more stacks of mantra, like before. It would work on a ammo system...late game you could have 3 stacks of mantra. so overall its a buff to her late game.

No, just would give her more charges when she comes back from base, she is supposed to use mantra as much as she can, giving her so much cooldown on it, and more considering she is supposed to use it from level 1 is a huge nerf and just unnecessary.

The only chage she could use is tweaking her passive a bit.

Healurownbum1 votes

Mantra was ment to be used well not just spammed used to be something you thought about a lot more then what is happening now.

SilverSquid3 votes

I like her too. Doesn't mean she can't be made better :)!

Also, you made her ult worse with higher cooldown while it isn't reduced by the passive.

Wisely choosing when to ult and when to save up seems thematically more fitting for Karma, than spamming her abilities whenever possible and hurting as many people as she can.

Worse ultimates? Would you really just deal more damage than hooking a Blitzcrank or deflecting an Ashe ult for your carry? Do you really prefer a longer root over the ability of makinga Veigar nuke himself? Do you prefer a big selfheal over the ability to tragically sacrifice yourself, so your ally can survive the Karthus ult? Well.... okay...

Rico Nasty1 votes

Reverting her to her old kit? Doesn't sound like a great idea to me. Replace the shitty tether with a cool, reliable form of cc and I'm down for this.

SilverSquid1 votes

Will not happen, I know, but I like to play games of "what if" sometimes. Because I realized how much people loved her fans. It might have worked if the new kit never existed. But now I usually try to work with both her old and new kit, to get the fanbases together and mend some wounds.

Anywho, what kind of CC would you like to see?

Rico Nasty1 votes

Just something like a reliable stun or silence because right now her cc is super dangerous and doesn't even work half the time. Maybe like, she tethers to an ally champion, and if the ally champion damages an enemy X times within X amount of seconds then the enemy is stunned or silenced? Then the Mantra'd version is that the tether grants the ally champion lifesteal/spellvamp as well? Idk.

SilverSquid1 votes

The tether must be something that is also usable in a solo lane. Team dependency was one of the reasons they reworked Karma in the first place. A too reliable CC will also make her RQ hitting too easily, denying all counterplay to it. Something else Riot dislikes, for good reasons.

Rico Nasty1 votes

I don't know, I just know that the shitty tether thing needs to go.

SilverSquid3 votes

Yeah, you are right. It fails on so many levels:

  • **Thematically **- It doesn't convey the feeling of binding with another person
  • **Gameplay **- A short ranged, delayed CC on a squishy pokemage...
  • **Optics **- Can't tell if mantra'd or not.
  • **Gamemechanics **- The 0.5s delay clamps the bait potential for her RW and the 0.66s application of the damage isn't true at all. It's 3 applications over 2s. But it deals its damage at the beginning and the end..... Wat?
  • **Build path **- It wants you to build tanky, even though the rest of her kit doesn't.
lolipopevelynn1 votes

riot will NEVER EVER FOREVER give karmas fans back to her because riot knows whats "best" for esports. just give it up already.

SirShaggy1 votes

I'd love to see some of this! I want a real fan-oriented champion back in the game. I have just a couple concerns. I'm not sure if this was intentional but it seems like the changes really gear her more towards the support role rather than a solo laner what with her Q heal and W speedboost. And I do like the idea of the Mantra effects but her Q and W seem like they could be abused with her having up to three charges to reflect abilities with. Besides that, I would totally main the shit out of a champ like this. God, I miss old Karma...

SilverSquid1 votes

I'm not sure if this was intentional but it seems like the changes really gear her more towards the support role rather than a solo laner what with her Q heal and W speedboost.

Her Q can heal her when hitting enemies. Q, W and E can all be used to waveclear. She has a full tradecombo, (W in, Q,E and out). All of this should make her a shortranged burst dualist, with less sustained damage than Vlad/Ryze, but more supportive options. Her W is meant to give her options to dash into and out of range to use her combo. Remember that it can be used on enemies, to chase them, or on a minion, to have a second target to dash towards.

The goal was to make her a capable sololaner with utility and clear power timings, that doubles as a protective, shortranged supportmage in botlane, or annoying lanebully toplane. If something in the kit works against this, in your opinion, please let me know!

And I do like the idea of the Mantra effects but her Q and W seem like they could be abused with her having up to three charges to reflect abilities with.

Depends a lot on the cooldown of Q, I think. And some champions don't even have spells to reflect (Wukong?Vlad?Annie?Soraka?). But even against a Lux, at best she can reflect a binding, and then will be hit by E+R. If Karma uses her second mantra to reflect the damage and shields herself from it, she probably didn't deal any damage with Q and E. However, in a perfect scenario, she would have prevented damage onto her and made Lux eat the damage herself. This needs skill tho.

Besides that, I would totally main the shit out of a champ like this.

This makes me incredibly happy :) . Thank you!

ItemsGuy1 votes

(As a little side detail, I actually ended up designing a kit/champion all around Karma's old personality and fans, which acts as a counterpart to the more modern iteration that informed my redesign: she negates windows of aggression while Karma retaliates against them)

+I definitely feel that something was lost when Riot opted to remove Karma's fans, so I'm glad to see that you've looked for a way to reincorporate such an iconic part of her old character!

-Unfortunately, that being said, her thematic ties with the fans start and end with her Q, and really only due to the fan shape. If you're going for bladed fans, the damage certainly makes sense, although adding healing in as well is somewhat confusing (it's like Gnar's boomerang buffing allies it passes through). They're not really all that present with her passive or W/E, which all have their own thematic luggage.

Not much else to say about this one, unfortunately, as my gripes and praise here overlap heavily with those aimed at her original design and your other proposed redesign. I do like your initiative, though, and it's a pretty good indicator that there's something very worthwhile that was lost in translation when Riot went back to the drawing board with her. There's also the matter of Karma being really vague and ill-defined on Riot's part, so you being able to cobble something as coherent as this or your other redesign from the pieces you've been given is pretty impressive on its own (and I'd say they're both improvements in some way or another compared to both her initial design and current iteration).

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