You just hate it when tanks are good, I am not sure why. You gutted all the armor items in season 5 and you've nerfed them even more. And you keep nerfing tanks non stop. Why? Because you want every game to be Lee, Zed, Yasuo, Vayne and support Leex2??
Maybe that's what the pros like and that's fine but the rest of your player base, you know, the other 99.8% is fed up! Enough is enough!
idontplaythemeta4 votesOr you can get good with sion, mundo, Shen, Darius, poppy, or even vroom vroom Olaf if you want a good tank within the anti tank meta. Plus I'm sure I'm missing a few that are good.
DillyDallyGhosT6 votesOr you can get good with sion, mundo, Shen, Darius, poppy, or even vroom vroom Olaf if you want a good tank within the anti tank meta. Plus I'm sure I'm missing a few that are good.
Mundo, Darius and Olaf are bruisers, not tanks! And even Sion is arguably a bruiser and he is bad.
AtheosisX7 votesMundo, Darius and Olaf are bruisers, not tanks! And even Sion is arguably a bruiser and he is bad.
Sion is not "arguably a bruiser". He has tons of tankiness and tons of cc. He's a tank.
DillyDallyGhosT2 votesSion is not "arguably a bruiser". He has tons of tankiness and tons of cc. He's a tank.
Sion also has tons of AD and even AP scaling that is more akin to a bruiser. He's somewhere in between. I would not define him as a full tank.
DeathBurst3 votesHe has an AD scaling on the skill that roots him and prevents him from auto-attacking, and a crap bonus AD scaling on his ult. He has medium AP scaling on his 2 other skills.
Meaning, it's stupid to build large amount of AD/AP on him, because they are half-wasted anyway.
Meanwhile, Sion has a slow/CC, a slow, an hard-engage that bumps/slows and a shield to stand in the middle of the fight with very conditional damage.
The only valid argument to say he is a bruiser is that his damage output is rather large for a tank, but it is still small for him to make a good bruiser. I'd say that Sion is much more a tank than anything else.
idontplaythemeta2 votesMundo, Darius and Olaf are bruisers, not tanks! And even Sion is arguably a bruiser and he is bad.
Mundo builds full tank, and maybe a 6th item bt if your ahead. Sure Darius and Olaf are bruisers but it's still under the category of tanks, also as a sion main with 60k mastery I'm a little offended. I found out from the higher tier players that sion was good in this anti-tank meta. It wasn't just my bronze butt that came up with it.
Critmaster Garen6 votesMundo builds full tank, and maybe a 6th item bt if your ahead. Sure Darius and Olaf are bruisers but it's still under the category of tanks, also as a sion main with 60k mastery I'm a little offended. I found out from the higher tier players that sion was good in this anti-tank meta. It wasn't just my bronze butt that came up with it.
no.
theyre bruisers. including mundo. to actually tank, you have to have the kit for it. hard engage, and peel. sejuani, malphite, nautilus, leona. theyre all tanks who are beefy and laoded wit cc.
bruisers often build similar items as tanks, but their main focus is dealing damage instead of peel and disruption. its a huge difference.
Ralanr6 votesIt's like people think the only quality for a tank is not dying.
Seriously why do people think that?
IcyPepper2 votesYou know, sometimes I wonder too.
I mean, if those same people had their way, then what would the likes of Garen be? A silence bot with three useless spells? You would have no incentive to focus bruisers if they had none of their damage and their current levels of cc, which is one of the reasons they have the damage in the first place!
Bruisers and tanks both want to be focused, but how they draw aggro (damage/cc threat) and how they punish people not focusing or at least dealing with them (again, damage vs cc) are different. If people had their way, there would be little to no reason to pay any attention to that Illaoi unless she built full AD (one reason bruisers are that way! They would just become less safe, less rewarding assassins) and then she would blow up because she has less tools than even Yi for mitigating damage.
Xenomancers1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jkPAPfuo,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2015-12-16T14:59:52.308+0000)
no.
theyre bruisers. including mundo. to actually tank, you have to have the kit for it. hard engage, and peel. sejuani, malphite, nautilus, leona. theyre all tanks who are beefy and laoded wit cc.
bruisers often build similar items as tanks, but their main focus is dealing damage instead of peel and disruption. its a huge difference.
You are confused. While each character plays differently - the term tank simply means hard to kill. The term tank has nothing to do with CC. If you've ever heard someone tell you to build tanky they aren't asking you to adjust your kit are they? Tanks in general can take damage - that's all it means. There is different kinds of tanks - bruisers are one of them. Typically bruisers have less cc and more damage (also see damage tank/ off tank). CC tanks are another branch of tanks and arguable sejuani and malphite are more brusier than CC tank - they don't have a lot of hard CC like Leona and Nautilus. When it comes to rating a tank also - if you were to ask who is "tankier" Mundo would certainly win this hands down - vs the champs you are calling "true tanks".
Critmaster Garen5 votesYou are confused. While each character plays differently - the term tank simply means hard to kill. The term tank has nothing to do with CC. If you've ever heard someone tell you to build tanky they aren't asking you to adjust your kit are they? Tanks in general can take damage - that's all it means. There is different kinds of tanks - bruisers are one of them. Typically bruisers have less cc and more damage (also see damage tank/ off tank). CC tanks are another branch of tanks and arguable sejuani and malphite are more brusier than CC tank - they don't have a lot of hard CC like Leona and Nautilus. When it comes to rating a tank also - if you were to ask who is "tankier" Mundo would certainly win this hands down - vs the champs you are calling "true tanks".
im not confused.
in this game we make the distinction between bruisers and tanks. due to the large amount of champions and their variety by now, youll find fighters that are extremely beefy.
but the function of a tank within a team is entirely different than that of a bruiser (or heavy fighter).
for example a lot of fighters that are "tanky" like the juggernauts need an actual tank for them to initiate a fight and lock down their opponents to make it easier for them to get to their priority target.
a garen on his own wont get to the adc with a supprot next to him. a garen that has a sejuani throw an ult into the enemy backline does.
bruisers often rely on tanks to be able to carry.
Sir Yamazuki2 votesYou are confused. While each character plays differently - the term tank simply means hard to kill. The term tank has nothing to do with CC. If you've ever heard someone tell you to build tanky they aren't asking you to adjust your kit are they? Tanks in general can take damage - that's all it means. There is different kinds of tanks - bruisers are one of them. Typically bruisers have less cc and more damage (also see damage tank/ off tank). CC tanks are another branch of tanks and arguable sejuani and malphite are more brusier than CC tank - they don't have a lot of hard CC like Leona and Nautilus. When it comes to rating a tank also - if you were to ask who is "tankier" Mundo would certainly win this hands down - vs the champs you are calling "true tanks".
Tanks actually don't have to be hard to kill, the tank category has multiple sub categories for various different type of games, and here on league one of them is Bruiser. Sure, both Tanks and Bruisers are hard to kill and even share items, but you can't call them both Tanks because here on league there is already a term for tanky champions focused on damage, which is again Bruiser. Bruisers all out damage tanks, in exchange for that extra damage they generally have very little to no cc and utility. To say Garen and Leona could fill the same label is rather absurd honestly. Not only does one deal more damage and the other brings cc, their primary goal in the game isn't even remotely similar, and due to design one is actually a liability while behind where as the other functions just fine.
Shonjl1 votesHere is the thing. I doubt most people even are caring about true tanks. I am sure most people that cry about tanks being shitted on are talking about top lane which is mostly all bruisers.
So for all intents and purposes, just include them as tanks for the sake of making the disscusion better. Since true tanks like Malph, Leona, Braums are in a very good spot right now, they aren't needing a hand in the slightest.
That being said. Sure armor got nerfed but it is in no shape or form made tanks or bruisers or even just normal fighters weak. Hell I find some bruisers are even better right now since the new items like Gage and such which are damage and tanky, so they are more damaging.
SS Enforcer4 votesSion is a tank, not a bruiser. And a good tank, basically maokai with less single-target focus, but more cc.
Sion is not "bad". No champion is "bad", if given the right circumstances. In Sion's case, the absence of vayne in the enemy team is the right circumstance.
Critmaster Garen2 votesOr you can get good with sion, mundo, Shen, Darius, poppy, or even vroom vroom Olaf if you want a good tank within the anti tank meta. Plus I'm sure I'm missing a few that are good.
poppy literally sucks anywhere else than the jungle right now where she does ok. and shes not even a tank.
DeathBurst3 votesBy your own definition, she has a slow, an anti-dash, a peel that can stun and a super-mega-hyper peel. She's definitely a tank.
Big Lincoln4 votesright that's why tanks are one of the best champs you could pick right now
Incognonymous2 votes[{quoted}](name=Angry Bards,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jkPAPfuo,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-12-16T14:37:01.347+0000)
right that's why tanks are one of the best champs you could pick right now
They have always been, and always will be. Amumu has had one of the highest, most consistent winrates since I started playing in 2011. No matter how bad tanks are, no matter how their itemization is nerfed, no matter how the meta shifts, tanks will always have a place because of what they bring to a team. No other role can say that, not even support, a role designed specifically to do just that. Hence tanky supports.
BluePolarizer2 votespretty sure that is marksman. The whole point of league is that it eventually becomes 4 supports + 1 carry - the marksman.
Shonjl1 votesTo be fair, tanks bring more to the table than marksman. Tanks make teamfights easier which is a bigger deal than objective control. Those objectives mean nothing if you are always dead whenever you have to fight their entire team. They work hand in hand. Tanks excel in teamfights allowing their marksman to destroy people and then take down the enemy base and take dragons and such. Marksman can do little without the aid of tanks or someone to initiate a fight while tanks, depending on which ones can live without marksman.
Not saying ADCs are worthless but let's be real. The only time more than 1 ADC ever works is if they win the game in like the first 20 minutes. If they don't, then whoever has a tanky champ or 2 will win since they will laugh as they make them irrelevant.
Penns2 votesEveryone hates when tanks are "good". They have 0 counterplay, it requires 0 mechanics to play them and a tank meta is just boring lol
Critmaster Garen5 votesEveryone hates when tanks are "good". They have 0 counterplay, it requires 0 mechanics to play them and a tank meta is just boring lol
because right clicking and orb walking takes so much mechanical skill...
Penns2 votesYeah it kinda does. At least harder than playing a tank
Critmaster Garen2 votesYeah it kinda does. At least harder than playing a tank
it really doesnt.
Penns1 votesPlay auto attack heavy adcs then and see how well you do. Adc is actually the hardest role to play lol
BladeSteel2 votesThe only auto attack heavy champion imo is draven. All the others are really easy. Im not saying tanks are harder to play (i'd say they're about the same mostly) but have different "difficulty". With tanks its hard to know when to go in, and when to sacrifice etc. w/ adcs its positioning. Idk how you could say auto attack champs are hard.... "i right clicked harder than you so i won"... Hardest champion is BARD!!!
Penns1 votes"Knowing when to go in" and things like that are not mechanical skill. Im talking about mechanical skill, not decision making. And tanks require close to 0 mechanical skill because they can just 1v1 anything by running over it most of the time.
BladeSteel1 votesAnd adc's have soooo much "mechanical skill"....just let me right click really hard... So what do you think is "hard" with them? orbwalking is easy. rightclicking is easy....whats "hard" about them.
Penns1 votesIf you think all adcs do is "right click" once, then theres no point in telling you whats hard about them lol. Why is Azir one of the hardest champs in the game? He just right clicks from 900 range too, right?
BladeSteel1 votesAnd I already said what I thought was hard with adcs. Positioning. Which you say isn't mechanical skill. so what is hard about them. Like I said, orbwalking is easy, rightclicking is easy. what is hard? And Riot somewhat supports what I said. Positioning is most important for adcs, and in their recent study about lag and performance, adc's came out the worst. why? because the hardest thing to do when you're lagging is to POSTION well and react to people and REPOSITION. You haven't said anything except that "adcs are soooo hard to play" and "if you think that about adc's then you don't know anything and I won't tell you". You have brought nothing to this conversation. If you can't explain your reasoning besides "try it yourself" and "you're too dumb to understand" then you're really the dumb one who can't explain yourself.
Penns1 votesWell then lets just assume "right clicking" is all you need to do as adc and the only hard thing about playing adc is positioning. Whats hard about tanks or bruisers? Simply right clicking onto someone as Mundo or Tahm and being impossible to fight sure isnt hard. They also dont need to care about positioning since its impossible to punish them anyway as long as they dont just dive in 1v5 for 10 seconds.
BladeSteel1 votesThey also have to deal with positioning. Everyone in the game must deal with positioning in some form. As Mundo, do you go in and 1v5 expecting your team to follow you, or do you position by and peel for your adc. Most champions are not mechanically difficult. In fact most of them are really easy to play (maybe not easy to master, but easy to do well with). Positioning and other things that like have nothing to do with what role you play, they are difficult things in the game for every role. Tanks have to know how to position to either engage or peel. adcs have to know how to position to not die, which is a little harder to get ahold of than tanks positioning, but not that much. And if you just "right click onto someone as mundo or tahm" you can get kited. If your team doesn't know how to peel them off, then that isn't that they are easy to play, its that your team is bad (or you are for being out of position and easily caught by a mundo). And with tahm, do you save your e to save your adc/apc or do you use it to try and kill that person you have 3 stacks on? Some champions are hard to fight 1v1 (mundo tahm, vayne) but that does not mean that they are easy champions, its that you don't know how to fight them. A mundo can rightclick all he wants, if he isn't positioned well he will die and not get anything for himself or his team.
edit: i am not saying that tanks are harder to play than adcs. I believe they are about the same. But adc is not the hardest role in the game to play.
Penns1 votesThats not really "positioning" tho. You dont need to position right to not get in range of Lissandra ult or thinkgs like that as tank, you just dont have to care. Playing tanks is all about decision making and game knowledge, they just dont take any mechanical skill with your keyboard or your mouse.
And when I say that all you need to do is right click onto someone as Mundo or Tahm, then Im talking about 1v1s. Have you never played against Mundo? Have you never seen that unkillable cinderhulk Mundo just run over you (with way more AD than you even tho you built warrior) and thought "well, thats pretty bs"? Because it is.
BladeSteel1 votesSo you're saying that adc doesnt take that little mechanical skill, but tactical skill. tanks take a little mechanical skill, but tactical skill. I'd say that mages take mechanical skill and tactical skill. Therefore, mages (not assasins) are the hardest role to play. And you can't compare a 1v1 mundo with a 1v1 adc if thats what you're doing. of course the adc should lose, thats the point. The only real adc who can 1v1 is vayne. And yes i've played against mundo, and with proper positioning and items he becomes useless. you wouldn't fight a malz 1v1, why would you fight a mundo or a tahm?
Penns1 votesArent adcs supposed to beat tanks? Because thats how it goes in every other game. Tanks > assassins because they survive their burst and kill them assassins > sustained damage dealers because they instakill them and sustained damage dealers > tanks because tanks """""""dont do damage""""""" and they typically melt/ heal through them.
In league its more like everything > adcs in 1v1, which is one more reason that they are hard to play, you often rely on your team.
Also, for me, kiting really well is the hardest mechanic in the game, but if you want to think otherwise, do so I guess.
Shonjl1 votesJust ignore them, there is a reason Penns usually gets downvoted to hell.
Ralanr3 votes0 counterplay?
Sion:
Q- walk out of it while charging.
W- pop it or keep your distance.
E- dodge minions (or don't hide behind them)
R- walk a few steps to the side as he closes in.
If by counterplay you mean killing, then you don't have a full definition.
Penns2 votesWell Sion is one of the more "healthy" tanks, but even he can just walk up to you and kill you with 4k hp when hes ahead. Im talking about champs like Mundo, what do you do against those? They are sticky af, have nearly no skillshots and just run over you while being impossible to damage most of the time. Thats not fair, nor is it fun. Theres a reason tanks are the only champs with really high win ratee (and a few exceptions like Brand and Malz because dft exists.
Ralanr5 votes2 things.
Mundo is a juggernaut. He has no hard CC and he's better at split pushing than teamfights. Teamfights are where tanks shine.
Here's a test to figure out of a champion is a tank beyond being hard to kill: Can they stop (as in stop him from moving) a highlander Master Yi? If not, then they are not a tank.
Please explain how Mundo can stop a highlander Master Yi outside of somehow killing him.
Just because someone can benefit from tank items (even if they benefit a lot) doesn't mean they are a tank.
Big Lincoln1 votesto be fair darius is a god in teamfights with the right comps
Ralanr2 votesHis E is decent CC, I'll grant that. But Darius is more of a carry than a tank. Tanks (in my mind) are another form of support. They aren't suppose to carry, they are meant to help their carries carry. It's probably why we see a lot of tanks support (
) even when they aren't secondary support.
Obviously this causes issues between tank supports and non-tank supports (which season 5 had a lot of complaints with). Tank supports provided a lot of lock down, which was great for ADC's because a target that can't move is easier to hit (I could make an insult to ADC's, but their job sucks in my opinion so I won't). Non-tank supports however had to provide other forms of utility (like healing or displacement rather than just lock down) and are as or more squishy than their ADC.
Having at least one tank on the team is very important (otherwise 
goes unchecked since it is not common for non-tanks to have reliable (non-ultimate) CC) so if they don't go in top or jg, then they'll be put in support. Since a midlaner can offer some utility (I'm generalizing) like a utility support, not much is really lost.
Honestly the best example of a tank I can think of is 
. He has hard CC, a taunt, and really hard to kill.
But 
are not tanks. They are Fighter/Tanks. They might be called tanks because the fighter class is incredibly broad (kinda like how supports are broad) and very generalized since we have champions like 
who classify as fighters. The difference with these two is that they aren't really "tanky" ( will be built tanky because he's basically a stun bot if he can't end the game fast enough) but can be built tanky so they can last in a fight.
Course you can build anyone tanky, but what matters is how well they benefit from it. You don't really build assassins like 
or 
tanky as it doesn't benefit them over damage. on the otherhand benefits extremely well from tanky items because his entire character is built around not dying. He isn't a tank though because he doesn't provide much in teamfights as compared to or 
. He's just a tanky motherfucker who gets people to focus him by simply existing (because no one is able to just ignore Mundo in soloQ apparently).
TLDR: Tanky =/= Tank.
Note: I could be wrong on some champion classifications. I don't know if is secondary support. is a fighter/tank that has been shifted into support by the community though, so supports aren't the only class that can support.
Big Lincoln1 votesthat's a really big post lol
i mostly meant in response to this
Mundo is a juggernaut. He has no hard CC and he's better at split pushing than teamfights. Teamfights are where tanks shine.
darius is really good in teamfights and IMO he's the best generalist juggernaut you could pick because he can fill multiple roles better than the others
Ralanr1 votesYeah, I went on a ramble there. Course I'm unranked so my opinion means jack shit on these boards XD.
You have a good point. But usefulness in teamfights is not a rule of juggernauts.
Penns1 votesnearly no skillshots
And I use the term "tank" for tank heavy bruisers or "juggernauts" like Mundo as well. Imo the only actual "bruisers" are champs like Wukong or Shyvana that actually build damage and are naturally tanky.
Ralanr2 votesPlease just use the term "juggernaut". It is misinforming when you use the term "tank".
Penns1 votesSo why, when I visit the official lol page and search for "tank" champions https://i.gyazo.com/c63f74d0da82e8f22a23c2fcce14fcd3.png , does it show me Mundo, Olaf, Nasus, Garen and many others that dont have hard cc?
Incognonymous2 votesJust to thrown in my two cents:
A tank is defined by: -Hard and/or Soft CC -Defensive steroids and/or has defensive scaling -Builds defensive itemization
Sion has passive health growth, a shield, health scaling on said shield, channeled knock up Q, AoE pull/stun/slow ult, and a slow on E. He's a tank.
