If people are asking that Riot leaves mages like Vel'Koz alone...

YumaS2Astral·Jan 8, 2016·46 votes·3,004 views

Is that a fear that Riot does to Vel'Koz (and others like Xerath which has just been asked to be left alone) the same thing they did to Cassiopeia and Mordekaiser?

68 Comments

Malicious MetalJan 8, 201629 votes

Hey, it can't be worse than Mordekaiser, right?

RetillinJan 8, 201616 votes

That sounds like a challenge...

UB3R 1337 H4XJan 9, 20165 votes

But what if... We made Vel'Koz a jungler and let him ride the jungle camps like a horse.

DarkSunSovereignJan 9, 20164 votes

I've seen enough hentai to know where this is going.

Timely VoidlingJan 8, 201619 votes

[deleted]

legionnaire99Jan 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=PinkEye Punisher,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jVbeZaUG,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-01-08T18:48:32.222+0000)

Honestly I'm pretty sure the big concern among players like me is that it'll get screwed up SOMEHOW.

RIOT hasn't exactly had the best track record with reworks, and the last thing I want to see is a bunch of people accusing me of playing Vel'Koz because he's been turned into a "no skill broken champ "

who the hell say he no skill champ they need to play him...

Tails DollJan 9, 20163 votes

He means after they rework him.

captainkaigerJan 9, 20163 votes

I think it's slightly unfair to say Riot has a bad record with reworks. For full scale reworks, I think they've done a really good job. Sion, Poppy, The Donger, Viktor (to a lesser degree) have all been really good reworks. And to be fair, while the Juggernaut update was ridiculous, the Marsman update was okay, with Graves pulling out a hard left at Albuquerque and using a really unique mechanic.

Some of the other reworks and touch-ups haven't panned out. I think CertainlyT, despite putting out all the mobile champs I hate, has interesting ideas, and so long as he keeps the king of kiting, true damage, and tentacles as immobile as he is now, I'd be okay with it.

TotalJerkJan 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

The Donger

He's the Yorick of the midlane laning phase. He's the closest thing to the literal definition of not allowing your opponent to play League of Legends.

CertainlyT

I personally find his hate overrated, but I like his designs overall but he has the habit of trying to force a square peg into a round hole and it usually turns what could've been an otherwise great design into something lots of people hate.

Silents429Jan 9, 20162 votes

There track record includes way more hits then misses, just no one remembers the hits and focuses on all the bad ones.

ObericJan 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

There track record includes way more hits then misses, just no one remembers the hits and focuses on all the bad ones.

List the hits. I can think of Poppy and Sion.

Silents429Jan 9, 20161 votes

I'm not patient enough to think up some hits, But off the top of my head, Gangplank was a hit, MF was a hit, Garen was a hit (first and second rework) Cait, Graves. In my opinion Lucians season changes were pretty great, Ashe rework was wonderful, Viktor was good, Karthus was technically a success at the time, Ahri, and more.

Obviously not all of these are Sion level reworks, but all of them have had major gameplay changes where people initially threw fits only to end up enjoying them after.

Dar RaksadaJan 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'm not patient enough to think up some hits, But off the top of my head, Gangplank was a hit, MF was a hit, Garen was a hit (first and second rework) Cait, Graves. In my opinion Lucians season changes were pretty great, Ashe rework was wonderful, Viktor was good, Karthus was technically a success at the time, Ahri, and more.

Obviously not all of these are Sion level reworks, but all of them have had major gameplay changes where people initially threw fits only to end up enjoying them after.

Karthus was just VU right? No skill changes?

Silents429Jan 10, 20161 votes

Probably the smallest of the gameplay updates from all of them, I don't actually know what they changed for him, I think just a lot of number adjustments.

Dar RaksadaJan 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Probably the smallest of the gameplay updates from all of them, I don't actually know what they changed for him, I think just a lot of number adjustments.

I don't think they changed anything on karthus gameplay wise, Trundle would be the next smallest gameplay update with only his ult changing from flat to % damage.

BastionKrossJan 9, 20162 votes

There's not a whole lot of room for improvement, but a lot of room for screwing it all up. The risk isn't worth the reward, especially with reworks being hit or miss lately.

ScurvyNaveJan 8, 201610 votes

It is exactly that fear. Riot's recent update/track records aren't too impressive. Change to Vel'koz in this update would be change just for the sake of change in my opinion. There are plenty more immobile mages who could use tweaking more than him.

I played old Cass and old Morde and now they're thinking about messing around with Vel'koz? I swear they are actively targeting my favourites.

Lady HammerlockJan 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

It is exactly that fear. Riot's recent update/track records aren't too impressive. Change to Vel'koz in this update would be change just for the sake of change in my opinion. There are plenty more immobile mages who could use tweaking more than him.

I played old Cass and old Morde and now they're thinking about messing around with Vel'koz? I swear they are actively targeting my favourites.

if they will work on him...i only trust reportair to do it

Colgate GatorJan 8, 20169 votes

Didn't Xerath get a rework that actually helped him to become relevant not that long ago?

Stevev45Jan 8, 20167 votes

I think Xerath's rework totally ruined him, but that's just me.

Remlap1223Jan 9, 20164 votes

Xerath was a Stat check champ that didn't have a whole lot of clarity in his kit. His rework was successful, but hes incredibly weak now.

He's basically in the same boat as Gragas was after he got reworked. He just needs some love.

SpecterVonBarenJan 9, 20166 votes

He's not weak, he's just incredibly generic. He has nothing in his kit that sets him apart from other mages and those other mages also have things that set them apart from other mages. Why play Xerath when you could pick Vel'Koz for a game changing ult, or Ziggs for zone control and tower pushing, or Lux for more utility?

DrCyanideJan 9, 20166 votes

You pick Xerath if you like to see your opponents dance in between the rain drops that are your ultimate.

Seriously, some games I don't know why I level that thing. Fire some rounds, enemy dodges them all, walk up and Q them for the kill.

PredatoratorJan 9, 20162 votes

the only thing about xerath that reallly needs work in my opinion, is his ult...in short it doesn't fit xerath's theme to me. for the rest, he got clear strenghts (sry for grammar) and weaknesses, and playing around those is kinda rewarding.

Dar RaksadaJan 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

He's not weak, he's just incredibly generic. He has nothing in his kit that sets him apart from other mages and those other mages also have things that set them apart from other mages. Why play Xerath when you could pick Vel'Koz for a game changing ult, or Ziggs for zone control and tower pushing, or Lux for more utility?

This is exactly why I preferred him pre-rework

legionnaire99Jan 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Xerath was a Stat check champ that didn't have a whole lot of clarity in his kit. His rework was successful, but hes incredibly weak now.

He's basically in the same boat as Gragas was after he got reworked. He just needs some love.

he not made to get kills and made to poke and take down towers

ObericJan 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I think Xerath's rework totally ruined him, but that's just me.

It's not just you. I loved old Xerath.

Kitten of EvilJan 8, 20167 votes

It's partially that, but it's also partially the fear that once a champion is in Riot's spotlight, their mains are in for a rocky road.

You risk having to relearn how to use parts of your champion if they change certain scalings, ratios, or even outright replace a skill (Swain's W scaling nerf, for example, or Karma's kit after her rework)
Items that were once good on your main may no longer be helpful at all, depending on those changes (Ryze and FH, for example--or AP items on Miss Fortune).
Plus, once Riot has made changes, you know they'll be looking very closely for follow-up buffs or nerfs, which puts you right back at 1.

Hard4HamstersJan 9, 20165 votes

I feel like it's more about an attachment with a character in League and how players have grown to love their kits (and probably have gotten a pretty strong hold on them due to experience). When Cassiopeia and Morde were reworked into champions that seem to have lost their identity in some form, they didn't really accept that as the champion they grew to love.

Another thing is that I think people take pride in certain champions that noone else plays. They feel a certain obligation to do well with these champs and show people that they are not to be forgotten. They want their lane opponent to say "Damn, I forgot how ridiculous of a lane bully Cassiopeia is (pre-rework)." And then the player they faced might have a newfound respect for that champion. Even if the player who mains an unpopular champ loses a game but plays well, they can be happy showing that their champion has that potential to be great.

What happens when these under-appreciated champions get reworked can go very wrong in the case of Morde and Cassiopeia (Skarner; honorable mention) where they either perform very poorly or VERY well upon release and go through balance changes to make their new kit work in a healthier way. This can lead to further balance changes that usually end up making the champion much weaker than they were prior to their rework and now the dedicated players must learn this NEW kit that they don't think represent the identity of the champion they knew before. It hurts. After all is said and done, sometimes champions end up in a crappy position where their kits can be completely OP in the right hands or under the right conditions and they are punished for this. The champion can end up in a spot where the balance team doesn't know or doesn't want to buff a champion that is weaker due to unpopularity mixed with an unhealthy kit that was designed specifically to bring the champion into a better position and fear that the champion will become a serious problem again.

I could almost consider myself a Ryze main not long after I started playing the game (Season 4-ish; I had been watching my roommate play in Season 3 before I decided I would try it out). Near the end of the season, he was buffed by giving him more range on his abilities and he became the TOP tier solo laner (top lane especially) as he had a monstrous early game due to harass and his lategame was unmatched in terms of damage and tankiness from a hypercarry. This led to his eventual series of nerfs that brought him down to a near 45% winrate, but I still played him as he just needed to survive the early and midgame to shine as a hypercarry in the lategame and he still had moderate power if you knew what you were doing in the early game. I was really excited when I heard that he was receiving a rework as I knew that his current kit was unhealthy and was hoping that his rework could capture what Ryze was in a kit that was much healthier for the game environment.

What ended up happening was a champion that was extremely weak on release as most of his kit was centered around his passive being up and I was actually okay at this at first; I was open-minded. Then the buffs happened and I knew as soon as they were announced that Ryze would be a huge balance problem. He was given a higher root duration at max level and I had done the math to figure out that Ryze could basically perma-root people with the early W max. The buff made it to live and it wasn't long before people figured out Ryze was severely OP and that his kit was lacking interaction with his opponent as they could only stop Ryze with an ability that was a ranged silence, knockup, or stun. Ryze was nerfed down to another 45% winrate, but with a twist. Those who were REALLY good with Ryze and/or those with very low ping could still dominate the game and could still nearly perma-root opponents as they could easily cycle spells and orb-walk in a way to keep on top of opponents and melt them with a barrage of spells. This kinda shows where the Cassiopeia kit is now, where she is in a state where only really good Cassi players know how to use her to the point where she is oppressive.

Anyway. I feel that people feel like some reworks miss the mark in some way in terms of champion identity that estranges mains of the champion. One thing that was said about the Ryze rework was that players wanted to keep his targeted root and that the team behind the rework decided that this was part of Ryze's identity, but I think that with Ryze's machine-gun style spellcasting, any root that is meaningful or any CC for that matter would most likely be unhealthy if it was targetted. I never saw that as Ryze's main thing (targetted CC); I saw him as the spellslinging, midrange, tanky, blue-as-hell hypercarry of legend. And many things that happened in the Cassiopeia rework seemed to reflect this and not capture her main identity in favor of a different playstyle that was more gimmicky than anything.

I think people fear that this might happen to their own main, and I understand that Vel'koz mains wouldn't want their underused champion being reworked into something foreign to them. I honestly feel like Vel'koz is incredibly strong for how unpopular he is (possibly because only mains play him; I suck at playing him, personally). I feel like people who main a certain champion think they are actually really strong, regardless of public perception, but people just need to learn to play them better/build them better/or understand matchups better to allow them to shine.

Another major thing about the possible kit alterations to Xerath and Vel'koz is that they are not necessarily in unhealthy states right now. AP itemization (and no mana pots) and new masteries have potentially changed the state of theses champions recently, but they overall have kits that work and are not complained about by many (besides me :P). Vel'koz in particular has never been a big problem balance wise and has not seen much popularity since his release, but a change to his kit might change this. I think that kit alterations are sometimes really well done and are received well by the community and by champion mains alike. I really liked Sion before and after his rework and I think it was one of the best reworks ever done that made him feel unique, true to his identity, and dynamic as a champion. Another good example of a smaller rework would be Ashe who was changed in a way that didn't alter her kit in a major way but players praised the kit change overall.

I think champ touch-ups and reworks have their place and I feel that the champion updates, specifically the marksmen update that made them feel much more unique from each other, which i feel is needed with immobile mages such as Xerath, Vel'koz, Ziggs, etc. This COULD turn out bad, but I think it is more unlikely to leave a sour taste in players' mouths like the Juggernaut update. We'll see what happens. I empathize with Vel'koz mains out there, but I also encourage them to embrace change as it comes as it keeps the game fresh and interesting. I don't think Riot is incapable of messing up big time with things like this, but I feel like they do a good job at keeping things moving at least and that's why I still play this game. I know some people may disagree with me, and I respect that some players find their "rock" that never changes in the passage of time and want to keep it that way, but we all change and I feel like League caters to this as my playstyle changes and the champions I like to play change and I think its a good thing for me at least.

Sorry about the long post, but I'm a little bit drunk and I wanted to rant a little bit about how I feel about what has been going on since some of the major blunders in Riot's champ-update team. It's kinda funny because I feel like I'm ranting to almost noone because long posts are too much to read (sorry everyone) :P. But anyway, I think they do a wonderful job overall, and I look forward to what they do in the future. I'm pretty hyped about the Taric and Shen updates, but I understand that there are some things that I might have to give up that I enjoyed playing with as them (AP Shen RIP). In some ways, I don't want them to be changed for my own selfish reasons sometimes, but I still want to see what the future holds and the game can't stay the same forever if it is to remain an interesting competitive game, so I'll keep playing for the next day and hope that others will too. Peace.

Teeter DanceJan 10, 20162 votes

Made it to the last paragraph and laughed out loud. I HAD A HUNCH YOU WERE TIPSY!

Hard4HamstersJan 10, 20161 votes

Thanks for reading. Yeah, I just reread my post. I still stand by what I said though.

NixtarmaJan 8, 20164 votes

The reason Vel'Koz players, and many others besides, are asking that he be left alone is that he is in a very fair spot right now, and has been since his release.

He has had no balance changes since release, while maintaining a reasonable level of play without causing many huge issues.

Hope this answers your question! -Nixtarma

TransgressorJan 9, 20163 votes

Kassadin Anyone? No? http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Laughing-Then-Crying-Meme-09.jpg

ObericJan 9, 20162 votes

I will be seriously upset if they rework Vel'koz. He's one of the last mages I like enough to consider one of my favorite champions. Every other mage I have liked has been ruined in one way or another. It's seriously starting to annoy me.

I loved old Xerath and Cassiopeia. Their reworks destroyed what I liked about them. Less so with Xerath, but Cassiopeia is a glorified AP Urgot now.

legionnaire99Jan 8, 20161 votes

vel'koz could use a new ult other then saying I"M A LASZER it really isn't that good

Meep ManJan 8, 201637 votes

If there's one thing that doesn't need to change. It's his ultimate. Everyone who plays Vel'Koz loves it. I love it. Its a fun and cool ability that gives an epic atmosphere to a battle.

legionnaire99Jan 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jVbeZaUG,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-01-08T13:53:52.792+0000)

If there's one thing that doesn't need to change. It's his ultimate. Everyone who plays Vel'Koz loves it. I love it. Its a fun and cool ability that gives an epic atmosphere to a battle.

i know but is it would not getting a kit that can flow with it's self? making him more powerful

Spicy RiceJan 8, 201614 votes

His whole kit combos with itself pretty well.

What about it do you think doesnt flow too well?

legionnaire99Jan 8, 20163 votes

{quoted}

His whole kit combos with itself pretty well.

What about it do you think doesnt flow too well?

it may be just me but it seem clucky maybe i'm just not use to poke mages

Spicy RiceJan 8, 20167 votes

I can get where you are coming from. I play him as a hybrid p9ke/combi mage where i use my q for poke, w to farm, and e to peel or setup my kill combo (e-w-q-ult)

48983507DEL1Jan 9, 20161 votes

My issue with his kit is that it entirely focuses on his ultimate. Stat wise, he can kill someone with his ultimate alone, and I don't feel that's very healthy for a poke mage.

I think the problem is he doesn't feel like a poke mage, at least after the lane phase. Riot put a giant emphasis on his Q being the cool, unique poking ability that skilled players could utilize to poke from obscene angles. And while it might be true, it doesn't seem all that rewarding since Q will hardly ever be used in a teamfight. Even for sieges, it feels lackluster.

I think that's what they should try to fix: making the rest of his kit FEEL meaningful.

XilixerJan 14, 20161 votes

his kit revolves around his passive not his ult. overall through the match most of your damage comes from the passive not the ult. heck his ult does that much damage cuz it activates his ult.

and his q is pretty rewarding seeing how it applies a really good slow to confirm kills and help teammates escape. it also does quite a bit of damage.

tbh i dont think you play vel'koz alot.

LadyRenlyJan 8, 201619 votes

{quoted}

vel'koz could use a new ult other then saying I"M A LASZER it really isn't that good

Are you serious? His ult is his most iconic ability

TotalJerkJan 9, 20161 votes

They'd be insane to fuck with Vel'koz's ult. That thing is the most iconic part of his kit.

legionnaire99Jan 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

They'd be insane to fuck with Vel'koz's ult. That thing is the most iconic part of his kit.

but it iconic to his small group of mains but i would have and ult that i can chain with my skill then to have an ult i'm know for i do think there one ult in the game as clucky as his atm

XilixerJan 14, 20161 votes

pretty sure the word clucky isnt a word and if you mean clunky your using it wrong and if you were using it right it still wouldnt make sense as the ult isnt clunky at all.

legionnaire99Jan 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

pretty sure the word clucky isnt a word and if you mean clunky your using it wrong and if you were using it right it still wouldnt make sense as the ult isnt clunky at all.

and yes it is it feels odd to use

Dar RaksadaJan 10, 20161 votes

Then again. They did make morde a duo laner, and they did other things which would've gotten you called insane if yousuggested them a year before they happened.

TotalJerkJan 10, 20161 votes

Yet they still kept his shield and his ult. Because those are too iconic to fuck with.