What if we took Nasus' Ult Q CDR and put it on his E instead?

Z3Sleeper·Jan 23, 2018·53 votes·3,344 views

"Using Siphoning Strike on units afflicted by Spirit Fire refunds 50% of Siphoning Strike's cooldown."

Suddenly, it has a clear window of power and counterplay.

It's a buff to pre-6 extended trading, sure, but you can counterplay it by like, not standing in E.

Edit: Just clarifying, this has nothing to do with his winrate. I'm not suggesting a nerf or buff but rather the whole purpose of this suggestion can be summed up in the question: Does this make Nasus a healthier champion?

Edit2: ^ Please read this. Alot of "Klepto is what makes him strong" posts.

This is obviously a straight nerf no matter how you look at it and fully expect it to be paired with some sort of buff. Possibly E leaving a lingering 3 second debuff after you leave the zone that allows you to still proc the Q CDR refund on them.

51 Comments

Kinkou OrderJan 23, 20189 votes

Spirit Fire would need to not be front loaded on damage if it is going to be giving him that kind of advantage in early game fights. It shows up so fast that it is basically undodgable given the area it effects. Add in a weither before it and 2 or 3 syphon strikes with even 45 stacks at level 5 and you have yourself a really oppressive lane bully for many melee without him even having ult.

Z3SleeperJan 23, 201812 votes

Q: 8/7/6/5/4 second CD

50% reduced: 4/3.5/3/2.5/2 second CD

I don't think someone would be unintelligent enough to stand in Spirit Fire pre-6 for 4-3 seconds.

Also:

Base Mana: 325

QWE Cost: 170 (with one Q)

Doesn't sound too broken for "bullying" to me.

Also factor in that E makes the wave push faster and it actually turns up usually being worse to use it this way in most cases.

KnalxzJan 23, 20181 votes

Yeah even before Spirit Fire was good everyone just walked out of it because it was bad to stand in it in the first place. I've even seen a Lee Sin ward hop out of it a few years ago.

BlitzidiousJan 24, 20181 votes

Could just keep the 50% refund on E'd people barred behind his ult, so you only get access to it post 6.

Trackpad ShacoJan 24, 20181 votes

It would definitely make him a lane bully, esp if he had klepto. Nobody is unintelligent enough to stand in Spirit Fire, but wither, like Kinkou said, would help you proc q more than you should be able to outside of ulti. With klepto, that to me sounds just broken, not to mention that it cuts the amount of time it takes him to stack q is gonna be greatly reduced, making him power spike at 25-35 mins into the game, instead of 30-40.

Z3SleeperJan 24, 20181 votes

Nasus Wither - 35-47% slow at rank 1. Nasus E Radius - 400

Time it would take to walk out from the center of E during Wither (assuming 325 base): 400/(325*47%) = ~2.6 seconds.

Q cooldown no CDR rank 1/2/3 with 50% reduced: 4/3.5/3 seconds.

Time it would take to walk from one end of E to the other while Withered: 800/(325*47%) = ~5.2 seconds (longer than Wither lasts).

So in both scenarios at t0 he gets 1 Q off, at t4/3.5/3 he gets the second Q off, and at t8/7/6 Wither has ended and he can possibly get another Q off but he's taking minion aggro and probably overextending.

This is all assuming he was directly on top of them to begin with. The reality is probably less effective than this scenario especially considering the kits of top laners that can mitigate this alot (dashes, CC, slows, etc.).

I'll stop there cuz I don't wanna make an essay out of this. My point is just that it's not gonna turn him into a lane dominating monster, especially given mana costs, klepto nerfs and wave pushing with E. Later in the game this will have a much bigger impact when his Q cd is lower and he has CDR and TriForce.

Btw, he already powerspikes around 15 mins into the game currently. The moment he has both Ult and Triforce online. Stacks play a part but those 2 are the main sources of his powerspiking. After those his stacks is more of a slower linear power increase as opposed to a powerspike.

SasogwaJan 23, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kinkou Order,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jUBXEv9T,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-01-23T07:25:06.830+0000)

Spirit Fire would need to not be front loaded on damage if it is going to be giving him that kind of advantage in early game fights. It shows up so fast that it is basically undodgable given the area it effects. Add in a weither before it and 2 or 3 syphon strikes with even 45 stacks at level 5 and you have yourself a really oppressive lane bully for many melee without him even having ult.

You can put it as a passive under his R, even though it affects E. And maybe make the refund 30/40/50 or 20/35/50% cd

BlitzidiousJan 24, 20181 votes

I should've scrolled down. We both suggested the same thing. :p

Ok sure but whyJan 23, 20186 votes

Put it on his W instead

the perma cripple

Z3SleeperJan 23, 201815 votes

That would just be a straight buff all around with still no clear counterplay.

Besides yknow, don't get clicked on.

Starcraft243verJan 23, 20181 votes

If you move fast enough you might be able to dodge clics ...

AetherArisingJan 25, 20182 votes

flashbacks to sanik the jhin-hog

I AM THE FAST

KnalxzJan 23, 20181 votes

I can see this comment spawning infinite rage against ADC mains.

ÑapoleoniJan 24, 20181 votes

I mean 6.05 second CD with 45% cdr. Wither lasts 5 seconds. It's already permanent if you have 0 mobility mid game. Even if you do have mobility, you have a 1 second window to really get away from him.

Baron BarianJan 23, 20185 votes

So your solution to nerfing Nasus....is by buffing him?

Z3SleeperJan 23, 20188 votes

In order to use it effectively pre-6, you need to use wither and spirit fire to keep them in long enough (remember, early Q cd is 8-6s, or 4-3 with 50% cdr buff).

4-3 seconds is long enough for someone to just walk out of spirit fire.

Also if he uses this to farm Q faster, he pushes the wave faster and runs oom faster.

If he uses this to trade, he runs oom even faster.

VesemirJan 23, 20184 votes

Nasus IS NOT THE PROBLEM. HE WAS ALWAYS LIKE THIS. NO ONE CRIED ABOUT IT BEFORE. THE PROBLEM IS KLEPTO AND item 3301 PATH. WHY ARE YOU SO BLIND TO SEE THE TRUTH. Why you want to nerf champions because of the broken items and runes. They nerfed Ezreal for the exact same issue. Nasus has been the same for 8 years. Klepto and Talisman broke him. Maybe the fix the game instead of nerfing champions....

Z3SleeperJan 24, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Edit: Just clarifying, this has nothing to do with his winrate. I'm not suggesting a nerf or buff but rather the whole purpose of this suggestion can be summed up in the question: Does this make Nasus a healthier champion?

kargishJan 23, 20183 votes

Yes and no. I don't think it should be tied to his E, since it doesn't necessarily make him better at lane bullying, but he can access this god mode Q far more frequently (mana costs can be dealt with). It's true you can run out of it, but that just feels bad for Nasus against MasterYi Riven Fiora Garen Gangplank or anyone else that can ignore his Wither. I think it's better for Nasus to have it tied to his ult, so there's a clear indicator for when you're an actual god and when you're just a demi-god. It just needs to be weaker early game if anything (example: 20%/35%/50%), and then compensate with a lower E mana cost (130 mana at max rank is a lot). If his Q CD reduction goes on E we'll make it easier for him to deal with lane bullies, but against sustainers he'll be even weaker, which is already something he struggles at in the early game.

Z3SleeperJan 23, 20181 votes

I think that honestly you could reduce the cooldown on either his E or his Q if this were to go through to slightly compensate for the lack of instant damage increase.

This is almost a straight nerf afterall and would definitely need to be paired with some sort of compensation buff. But I like the idea of him having some form of niche gameplay element (other than stack Q) that allows him to pump out more DPS than normal while also having counterplay to alleviate the fact that he can do so.

Nasus does fall into the category of Juggernaut right? I can't remember. But if you look at Juggernauts they have the same sort of criteria. They are extremely strong in their bubble but susceptible to kiting. I think this would make him fall in line with that perfectly and definitely believe with a few love taps to his kit here and there this would actually be a viable change.

Could probably make Spirit Fire leave a lingering 3-or-so second debuff to enemies after they leave it where he can still proc Q CDR on it.

AbibyamaJan 23, 20183 votes

Suddenly E max AP/Pushing build is broken. Kinda

HalcyonDwellerJan 23, 20183 votes

YESSSSSSS

This is exactly what Nasus needs! +1

TèrminusJan 23, 20182 votes

{quoted}

It's a buff to pre-6 play, sure, but you can counterplay it by like, not standing in E.

Until he Withers you and drops Spirit Fire at your feet.

Z3SleeperJan 23, 20182 votes

WE mana cost: 150

Base mana: 325

E makes the wave push as well.

Post-6 this is already how he operates anyway, using WE -> R -> Q Q Q Q Q Q. Difference being you can now walk out of Spirit Fire to stop the machine gun Q's.

SkiasJan 23, 20182 votes

Nasus Rushes Tear and AP. Wins every lane by 15m.

Trias000Jan 23, 20182 votes

Also, if he wanted to power stack using this, he would need to build mana sustain and he would push the wave, making him vulnerable to ganks. That would make him more interactive in lane. Certainly worth consideration.

IsalvaJan 23, 20182 votes

Edit: Re-edited my entire Comment.

Nasus has a resurgence in power due to Kleptomancy. BUT! Here's the big thing, his Ult CDR was an awesome buff, but I don't think swapping it to his E is a great idea. Sure it might alleviate the issue, but the problem is to make the most out of his E he needs to sling all his spells. When his base mana is very small and his spells are so damn high costing except Q, that it seems like this won't make him healthier. Sure, you no longer have a god mode Nasus in his R, but that's the point of his ult. His ult is "Now to show you my true power!" what would be point of his ult, if that CDR would be moved onto his Spirit Fire. I'm a Ex-Nasus main and I love him, but in all honesty this wouldn't make him healthier. He might be unhealthy and cancerous to play against because IF he can afford it can smack you 3 times with Q in Spirit Fire with Wither, and deal extreme amounts of damage due to armor shred. I can only think this won't be good or bad for him either. It might make him more awkward to play actually and that's not good on someone like Nasus. He feels like he should be smooth to play and not so reliant on his other spells. He should feel like a Juggernaut that will destroy anything in his path when he ults, but if this interaction would be on his E. Would he feel smooth to play? Will he be the same? Or is it just something that will make him feel clunky and maybe a tad awkward to do right. That's my ten cents on the situation you provided. I hope you gave it a read and hear out on my thoughts. Have a good day!

LordGeovanniJan 23, 20182 votes

the 50% buff was bad in the first place his q naturally has no cooldown and he builds 40% cdr at least why lower it even more with its infinite scaling potiental and it only need 120 stacks to be good and 300 stacks to be overbearing both of which are easily attainable in 30 mins

Great OzymandiusJan 25, 20182 votes

This is obviously a straight nerf no matter how you look at it and fully expect it to be paired with some sort of buff.

Farm q-stacks at twice the rate on minion waves. You can push a wave while getting full stacks at twice the rate. If 'e' counts on towers, you can wreck towers twice as fast without blowing your ult.

redniwediSJan 23, 20181 votes

But why? I'm assuming this topic was brought up because of how strong Nasus is right now, and not simply because you feel some changes are needed to his kit. He doesn't really need any kit changes right now, and Riot is already looking into Kleptomancy, which is the only thing propping his win rate up.

Seriously, as I explained in this other thread his win rate with every keystone besides Kleptomancy is 50% or lower. That's not the kind of win rate that should lead to significant kit changes.

Z3SleeperJan 23, 20182 votes

{quoted}

But why?

Ignore winrate, ignore Kletpo Nasus, ignore the balance state of the game as a whole. This isn't a buff/nerf thread, this is more about game health overall.

The point is, does this look healthier?

redniwediSJan 23, 20181 votes

Against ranged targets I don't see a significant difference, besides one or two less uses of Q.

Against melee targets Nasus could very well become impossible to properly fight in the mid game. The resistance shread on E is honestly really powerful, and being able to cast it more often with his ultimate up could actually break all of his current bad melee matchups. The counterplay to his E right now is run like hell until you're out of it and if Nasus stays inside wait for it to end, but with that reduced cooldown I just don't know.

That's just my opinion as someone who occasionally plays Nasus.

Z3SleeperJan 23, 20181 votes

I see what you mean. But what would be the difference between current Nasus using E and RQQQQ vs this version using E and RQQQQ?

Besides like, it being always up whenever E is up. But in contrast to that, it's always down when E is down.

redniwediSJan 23, 20181 votes

As it is now, if you're playing smart around Nasus at least, Nasus only gets one or two Qs on someone inside of E, even if they are withered. Giving E less downtime and allows you to get those two Qs more often. Not sure if it actually means anything in the long run, but it's worth considering.

It would likely also make AP Nasus more viable, which I'm not at all sure would be a good thing.

T4underboltJan 23, 20181 votes

Great idea. I wonder how riot hasn't figured out this make him less obnoxious...

Not like they want to balance the game you know...

It Hertz When IPJan 23, 20181 votes

Only if the armor shred gets taken off E.

Z3SleeperJan 24, 20182 votes

I wouldn't mind it staying. If the whole point of this is to push him into being "powerful in his zone" then I have no problem with him being, well, powerful in his zone.

Void Baboon RFJan 23, 20181 votes

Who's nasus we need to buff khazix right now dude - meddler the janna picker

Stand Alone WolfJan 23, 20181 votes

This thread has close to 20 upvotes, and over 595 views. wtf seriously?

Rayjay RedfangJan 23, 20181 votes

Continuous Haah haah haah haah haah haah haah haah haah.....haah. it would just make splitpush ap nasus popular again I think

It is the kleptomancy that allows nasus to get strong way early, and I don't think the change will change much In terms of adding counterplay.

Tibbers CousinJan 23, 20181 votes

The problem is Klepto. It's a problem keystone. Nasus hasn't had any major buffs since his ultimate change. Only thing putting him over the top now is that keystone. No idea why people cant see that.

DeusVultJan 23, 20181 votes

Or, what if we took away what makes him strong EARLY (the immediate level 6 power mountain) and made it so that his ult reduces Q's cooldown while active by 15/30/50%. So Nasus is no longer just pimp-caning you at level 6, but his late game Q damage is still good. And it keeps with his Q dominant playstyle, whereas changing it to E lets Nasus go AP and just E spam you down.

Also, get rid of Klepto. The whole thing. In the garbage. Now Rito.

invisiblecat1Jan 23, 20181 votes

Can we get a maximum of 2 per champion for each E? This won't really change much, except the fact that he can't just max whither and get off even more damage than he already does

KennysDreamGirlJan 23, 20181 votes

aslong as he is a champ that can 2 shit you while being so hard to kill he will never be healthy

KuromatsuJan 23, 20181 votes

i feel like nasus needs the veigar treatment. so that he isnt just sitting in lane farming until he can 1v1 or one shot towers. I don't have a suggested way of doing it, i am just saying it would be nice to use his q early game for something more than trying to last hit a minion.

Yes Daddy PIeaseJan 24, 20181 votes

Fuck. No. how is this a nerf

Z3SleeperJan 24, 20182 votes

How easy it is to walk/dash out of E and removes direct power from his ultimate.

xelakerJan 24, 20181 votes

maybe just remove the silly cdr Q and let him be...

SanKakUJan 24, 20181 votes

Yeah, that's a good idea. I have to admit though, when I just saw the thread title, thought you meant that instead of Q getting its cooldown reduced, E would get its cooldown reduced.