My 6 yr old proved how Riots report system is fundamentally flawed

slippykitten·Jun 2, 2015·119 votes·16,934 views

So the other day i queue up for a ranked game but 2 min in had an emergency take place that required my attention. When i get back, my 6 yr old has been playing for me for the past 20 min or so. She is 1/17/1 as the adc, i was actually pretty proud she managed to get a kill, considering she has never even used a computer before. However, what i read in chat disturbs me. Rather than the entire team raging me (my daughter) and reporting me, they are all ganging up on our toplane who was asking that the enemy team report our troll adc. He didnt curse, or unnecessarily insult, he just asked them to report the adc who was obviously trolling. My team opted to report him instead of me.

This illustrated perfectly to me a key problem in Riots report/reform systems. That guy had every right to be frustrated with me for ruining his ranked game and every right to demand that i be reported and punished. Instead riots system and punishments favor me and instead lean towards punishing the player that was the victim.

We need a system that better identifies the players harming games and punishes them instead of one punishing the one who vocalizes the problem.

234 Comments

mvargusJun 2, 201586 votes

I'd like to point out that there are rules on what your account could have been reported for.

Offensive Language? - I hope your 6 year old wasn't typing anything offensive, even if they knew how to chat

Verbal Abuse? - not something your 6 year old was likely to do again, how well can they spell words

Negative Attitude? - sounds like your 6 year old was just having fun copying what you do, I doubt they showed any attitude.

Intentional Feeding? - always a tough call. You didn't watch the play so you couldn't say.

Most likely the report should have been for "unskilled player" which would have been an honest statement.

What it sounds like is that when you had to leave the team realized there was a problem, and most of them while probably unhappy accepted that "things happen." Your 6 year old tried, but couldn't play at the skill level necessary. But the top laner rather than manning up and sucking it in decided to try to drag the other team into reporting you.

WHICH IS A MAJOR VIOLATION OF THE EULA!!!!! The top laner was violating the entire Summoner's Code which quite clearly states that asking people to report someone should always be reported. Worse, he was dragging additional people into a discussion they didn't want to deal with. I personally HATE having someone say "report X for Y". I usually can't see what they are saying, and for me intentional feeding requires that you run down mid and directly into an enemy champ multiple times. Someone who is trying hard and struggling might get me to report for "unskilled" but that report doesn't do much, so I usually leave it alone.

Sorry, but to me what happened was your 6 year old saved you from a "leaving game/AFK" report and the top laner's own bad attitude got him reported.

The system actually worked close to how its supposed to, unless you consider the fact that your 6 year old sharing the account should get it banned outright, but since all they did was sit down at the computer when you were called away, its impossible to prove that.

ChargeItDownMidJun 2, 201518 votes

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ElJanitorFrankJun 2, 20154 votes

The point of the guy's post was that it isn't allowed.

Just because you think it is doesn't make it right.

ChargeItDownMidJun 2, 20154 votes

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ElJanitorFrankJun 2, 20151 votes

There is nothing wrong with what the top laner did. He asked his team for a report which is completely legal

And then the original post:

WHICH IS A MAJOR VIOLATION OF THE EULA!!!!! The top laner was violating the entire Summoner's Code which quite clearly states that asking people to report someone should always be reported.

Unskilled is a report category that doesn't do anything. It's just a placebo affect: It makes you feel better because you think you did something, but all you did was calm yourself down. There is no reason to report someone doing badly, if he's in the same division as you, he's the same skill level 99 times out of 100, he's just having an off-game.

ChargeItDownMidJun 2, 20153 votes

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ElJanitorFrankJun 2, 20155 votes

That's not the point. Reporting him wasn't the offense.

Bitching to his team, telling them to report the guy is the offense.

GundayMondayJun 2, 20158 votes

Read the summoner's code. That top laner is not someone I want to play with. I report every single person that does this because they ruin my game experience.

Remlap1223Jun 2, 20153 votes

More than the person that actually caused that behavior in the first place? When you kill a weed, you don't cut the stem, you pull the roots out.

Gregor GysiJun 2, 20155 votes

So if I call you an idiot (which is not okay) you are allowed to kick me in the balls? NOPE you are not. Just because someone else did something bad, you are not allowed to do something worse.

However 1/17/1 and most likely a really bad CS + bad items seems like intentional feeding, which is a reportable offense. If you'd have more games like this you'd surely get punished. The system is working, both offenders are going to face consequences if they don't change their behaviour.

ChargeItDownMidJun 2, 20154 votes

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Dorans HatJun 2, 20154 votes

I'll let you in on a secret: Riot doesn't do anything with unskilled player reports. They don't punish anybody for being unskilled.

The only reason it exists is so that ragers don't clog up the report system and describe what they're really mad for.

ChargeItDownMidJun 2, 20154 votes

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Gregor GysiJun 2, 20155 votes

{quoted}

But he is allowed call you an idiot as well.

Sure thing. Not. Just because someone flames you, you are not allowed to flame back. Doesn't increase your chance of winning and rather distracts your teammates even more.

Remember, the top laner was only asking for a report based on unskilled play, something riot specifically added into the game.

Yes. He is allowed to report him afterwards. But he is not allowed to ask for others to report him as it doesn't help anything. He (who should be reported in your opinion) is going to feel offended and the team moral is going to get down. Flaming is to be expected. Your own report is enough, just be quiet about him.

ChargeItDownMidJun 2, 20152 votes

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Gregor GysiJun 2, 20154 votes

{quoted}

The example quoted was an example outside of a game and whether or not it increase your chances of winning is irrelevant since we are not talking about an ingame situation.

What? The example was meant to be compared to an ingame situation. We were originally talking about an ingame situation, this is what the thread is about! How are you criticizing me for explaining what the example means?

Whatever, again: Even if someone is showing bad behaviour no matter which you are not allowed to act offensive towards him.

He is also allowed to ask others to report. There is no rule against asking for a report in the conditions outlined by OP.

Asking for reports is negative behaviour and should be punished. This is why:

it literally accomplishes nothing but personal satisfaction for you. Your report is sufficient
if others feel like he is trolling, they are going to report anyways
the person you want to be reported is going to feel offended -> he is likely to respond/flame/defend -> team moral is going down -> people are going to be distracted by chatting

So there is NOTHING positive about asking for reports while there are several negative consequences. Asking for a report is a sign of a bad, negative and offensive attitude. You'd be much better off with sticking to the Summoner's Code:

Stay positive, remain calm, and keep to the code!

ChargeItDownMidJun 2, 20152 votes

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Gregor GysiJun 2, 20153 votes

{quoted} That is not true since the number of reports and the weight of each report is different. Having more people report the player will likely increase the speed at which the game takes action (which in this case would be to examine the mmr of the players and determine if any changes need to be made to improve the experience for every player in the future).

Good to know, seems like it has an upside, however the negative aspects still are standing.

Not everyone has the map awareness to fully realize what is going on. I'm in diamond and I still can't keep track of exactly how all 9 other players on my team are playing at all times to know who to report for unskilled. I highly doubt players in OP's bracket would not benefit from a nudge in the right direction.

What you are saying seems to imply something that I don't think you mean to say, but:

I still can't keep track of exactly how all 9 other players on my team are playing at all times to know who to report for unskilled. Do you want to report someone for making a bad play? If someone is playing extremely badly you should see it just based on the score. The unskilled report button can't be there to punish players for having a bad game/making a bad play/hell not even for throwing the game. However if someone plays so incredibly underwhelming considering his Elo, that it can't possibly be just a bad game, it should be reportable. Those who deserve the 'unskilled player' report are obvious cases. If you need to spectate him the whole game to decide whether he needs a report, he surely doesn't need any.

That is purely speculative and not applicable towards all players. There are many players such as myself who plays better when flamed and increase team moral simply by making bigger plays which tip the game in favor of our team.

Purely speculative? Do you want to make it seem like acting negative to non-constructive criticism (which the report call is) is such a rare thing to see? Actually even constructive criticism usually ends up in someone getting mad. In my experience as a LoL player the scenario I described is not 'highly speculative', it is rather the norm. Also your argument would equally promote flaming - so should we all flame our teammates?

Furthermore, if we are talking about something that is not applicable towards all players: I am pretty damn confident that only an extremely small minority is going to feel good and motivated after being flamed. And even if there were those few who are actually somehow into that, there are lots who are going to be offended. Not getting flamed however is not going to offend anyone.

I would much rather use the terms of services since the summoner's code actually does a pretty bad job at saying what is and is not bannable and seems to defer to the terms of ue.

Well it's essentially all about attitude. The Summoner's Code wants us to behave in a way that is making the game experience better. Reportable is what makes the game less fun.

Trolling, flaming, calling for reports (which in my experience promotes flaming), afking and such are thus illegal. Nevertheless I agree, Riot needs to make clear whether asking for reports is reportable or not.

Loken StoneheartJun 3, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Unlike asking for reports which have been shown over and over again to not be against the rules, flaming our teammates is explicitely banned by the terms of service.

While calling for reports ruin the game in your experience, that is not applicable to the game as a whole. As such, there is a reason why afking, flaming, trolling, and scripting are explicitely against the rules and asking for reports is not.

Need I remind you that back in... 2013? Riot did a sweeping wave of bans against players who were asking for others to be reported because asking others to report someone is a form of harassment, and is indeed a punishable offense.

( http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2451206&page=1 Not the instance I was talking about, but here )

ChargeItDownMidJun 2, 201512 votes

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ChaoticPineconeJun 2, 20157 votes

http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/get-started/summoners-code/

Support your team - "Encourage players who are having trouble, and congratulate those who are playing well."

i dont even have to go past #1 to see a violation of the Summoners Code

ChargeItDownMidJun 2, 20157 votes

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ChaoticPineconeJun 2, 20157 votes

No, nothing says explicitly that what the top laner was against the rules, since the Code doesnt specify many particular instances (besides AFK). Instead, they give general guidelines. Technically, i dont see "flaming someone when youre top lane and youre doing well, but your ADC isnt", but it still breaks the rule.

In any case, any action that is not supportive of your team breaks Rule #1. Asking the enemy team to report your own teammate isnt supportive of your team.

ChargeItDownMidJun 2, 20154 votes

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ChaoticPineconeJun 2, 20155 votes

theres a very big difference between not giving a buff and asking for a report.

For example, the buffs give XP, gold, and CDR to Shyvana. it might be BETTER used on Anivia, but it isnt wasted on Shyvana. Also, if the Anivia is feeding, it might better be used on the jungler than being given over to the enemy Mid.

that is different from a teammate saying "report X". what purpose does that serve besides pissing off your teammates? does it help the teammate win? does it give him XP? gold? CDR?

youre comparing apples to oranges.

and dont confuse the terms of agreement with the summoners code. the Terms is a legal contract - they can take you to court if you violate them. The Code is a standard set of guidelines youre forced to follow, but have no repercussions outside in-game punishment.

Edit - and saying "Report X" is harassment.

Baron of BreadJun 2, 20153 votes

The top laner asked the enemy team to report the ADC. Asking your own team to report someone is fine, but if mvargus is correct then asking the enemy team for a report is not.

I agree that Unskilled Player is a legitimate report option, but that was not what mvargus was talking about.

TerchioJun 2, 201512 votes

Wait... that's in the EULA? That sounds oddly specific to make its way on there... I'll have to try to find that.

Edit: I'm afraid that's not in a quick EULA search. The EULA had no mention of reporting, and the Terms of Use only say that you can be reported, and that the Tribunal of Peers may step in. The Tribunal Policy then states guidelines for the process, but goes into no detail of what can be reported, clearly omitting this sentiment. And finally, the Summoner's Code does probably consider this an infraction, maybe on multiple levels, but I see numerous infractions per game, even in the civil ones. Also, not once in the Summoner's Code was the word "report" or any of its other forms written, and therefore it is a vague representation for the rule at best.

At very least, the sentiment that it is a "major" violation of anything is not derived from those forms alone. In fact, Riot has left it incredibly vague to the point that if we thought serial AFKing was okay, so did they.

GavranJun 3, 20154 votes

The EULA references following the Summoners Code, the Summoners Code is what was being claimed to contain that.

RrettJun 3, 20154 votes

You forget account sharing is against the rules.

Hope riot bans OP.

This shit isn't acceptable.

RiotSlumber JackJun 3, 201555 votes

Hi there

So I'm looking through your match history and trying to find this game, but there aren't any games that fit the description you're giving in the OP. However, what I do notice is a very consistent history of verbal abuse, so that's why players are reporting you and that's also why you're seeing punishments being instated on your account. This is a case where the system is properly identifying a player that is ruining the experience for others and is addressing them appropriately.

We will always be making improvements to the system ("good enough" is the enemy), but we need you guys to work with us and not against us.

slippykittenJun 3, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slumber Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jROuVx86,comment-id=0032,timestamp=2015-06-03T18:47:01.713+0000)

Hi there

So I'm looking through your match history and trying to find this game, but there aren't any games that fit the description you're giving in the OP. However, what I do notice is a very consistent history of verbal abuse, so that's why players are reporting you and that's also why you're seeing punishments being instated on your account. This is a case where the system is properly identifying a player that is ruining the experience for others and is addressing them appropriately.

We will always be making improvements to the system ("good enough" is the enemy), but we need you guys to work with us and not against us.

I posted on the wrong account - my bad there
The point of my post was that i should have been punished for that behavior, so i think you're missing the point. I am often warned because I'm the top lane guy instead, getting trolled and getting punished for being upset about it. You will not find me personally insulting anyone, or cursing them out. I gave an example of a time when i was actually the one in the wrong, and that was the one time i didn't get punished

So, i'm not sure if you are intentionally missing the point or not here..... My point was that in the game i described, i was the one deserving of reports and punishment, not my toplaner who was rightfully frustrated that he had to deal with me.

But, who am i to think you guys are concerned with anything except verbal abuse (as you define it of course). Even in a thread describing how all you guys address is verbal abuse instead of actual game play toxicity, all you can focus on is verbal abuse - does this not strike you as ironic?

Nameless VoiceJun 3, 201523 votes

{quoted}

I posted on the wrong account - my bad there

Then please post with your correct account so that we can verify your match history and so a Rioter can look up the game.

RiotSlumber JackJun 3, 201524 votes

From your match history on the account with which you chose to post, it seems the playerbase recognises that you often are the one deserving of reports and punishments.

I don't see the game with the top laner, and even if I could I wouldn't speak about their account specifics without them being here. Either way, if our main concern was that he was being reported when he shouldn't have been -- and he truly shouldn't have been -- then he very likely didn't get punished. Takes a lot more than a few reports for that to happen :P

Yordle XayahJun 3, 201527 votes

http://replygif.net/i/187.gif

kJsJun 2, 201523 votes

That's pretty sad. But I think this scenario is quite 'isolated'. Only idiots wouldn't report a 1/17/1 ADC. That goes beyond the bounds of logic.

ElJanitorFrankJun 2, 20154 votes

You've never had an off game before? There's a report feature for a bad player: No one uses it and it doesn't do anything, because everybody has bad games.

stealthfox94Jun 2, 201513 votes

17 deaths in 20 minutes isn't an off game.

ElJanitorFrankJun 2, 20155 votes

You can easily get a score that bad if you pump in over a thousand games.

Zenthon PrimeJun 2, 201510 votes

Maybe, if you went something like 34/17 and the game was insanely long. But 1/17, 99% of the time, is intentional trolling. The other 1% of the time is what happened here. I'm sorry, but 1/17 games just don't happen from bad play.

GlîtterJun 2, 20156 votes

{quoted}

That's pretty sad. But I think this scenario is quite 'isolated'. Only idiots wouldn't report a 1/17/1 ADC. That goes beyond the bounds of logic.

I feel like most people here are sympathizing because we know the story behind the score. If a 6 year old is controlling the champ I imagine the player movement and communication was odd at best. If I noticed that in my game I would have reported as well.

XinZhao2WinNhaoJun 2, 20155 votes

{quoted}

That's pretty sad. But I think this scenario is quite 'isolated'. Only idiots wouldn't report a 1/17/1 ADC. That goes beyond the bounds of logic.

if he was just having a bad ranked game I wouldn't report. If it was normals I wouldn't report. But if he was account sharing in a ranked game and ends up throwing a match I might report, but I'd have to know he was account sharing, so he'd have to say "I'm playing a game on my (mom/dad/brother/sister/friend's) account, this isn't my account"

FarRockBFJun 2, 20157 votes

{quoted}

When i get back, my 6 yr old has been playing for me for the past 20 min or so. She is 1/17/1 as the adc, i was actually pretty proud she managed to get a kill, considering she has never even used a computer before.

I laughed so hard at this (while drinking) that I just spit coffee all over my desk.

SexyTaylorSwiftJun 2, 20155 votes

I've been saying this forever. They have literally made no progress in fixing "toxicity" in the time I've been playing this game. In fact, I see more people complaining that League is more toxic than even. It is because instead of actually attempting to fix the problem, they are trying to throw a rug over the reaction. Yes, that is one game your daughter played for you. You have to realize, however, that they're people literally doing what your daughter did every game just for fun. What they are doing is the equivalent of turning on your air conditioner to "fix" global warming.

Remlap1223Jun 2, 20153 votes

Pretty much this. Riot's "community policing" is a long running joke, because it has done literally nothing to the toxicity problem. Games being toxic are caused by Riot's horrible matchmaking system that puts players with peers that are far outside of their skill level. Because League is a team focused game, this causes major fights, because unless your skill level far greater than everyone in the game, and you're playing a champion that can pubstomp, then sorry support mains, you're staying in Bronze forever. But Riot deflects this argument just by saying "teh toxicity!!1!" and the community eats it up. It's why assholes are allowed to troll in the pre-game in order to get what roles they want. It's why games are so frustrating to play when someone is being negative because you're forced to deal with them for at least twenty minutes, most likely more. It's why people lose their chat privileges by arguing their case against their teammates when the team gangs up and calls your bad play intentionally feeding. It's why despite the fact that all these systems are in place, League STILL has the most toxic community in video games.

mvargusJun 2, 20159 votes

{quoted}

It's why despite the fact that all these systems are in place, League STILL has the most toxic community in video games.

I'm going to disagree with this last line. I've played a ton of different MMO's and other online games over the 20+ years I've had a computer and internet access. I won't say that League is sunshine and puppy dogs, but compared to some of the other communities I've hung out in League is not the most toxic.

Heck, if you don't try to cultivate toxicity you will actually rarely run into it. I've had maybe 2 bad games in my last 50 and in both cases I was playing a champ I know I need a lot of practice on so I didn't entirely disagree with the person who went toxic, only with him being toxic in a normal match. (I don't play champs I need practice on in ranked.)

Most of the people who I find complaining about the way RIOT deals with the toxic players often later post about bans they got and they usually try to claim they were goaded into it. I expect that most of the complaints about this community being toxic are from people who are toxic themselves and who fear the new system as its far more likely to throw bans their way now.

The system isn't perfect, but I expect it will be surprisingly effective.

RoG VahnJun 4, 20151 votes

they ban the victims of toxicity instead of banning the toxic people so all that is left is the toxic players.

SexyTaylorSwiftJun 4, 20151 votes

I don't want to play the victim card here, though. I'm just saying, their current way isn't working. Anyone with common sense can see why. This community is just too caught him in pretending to be trying to fix it, and that notion is headed by Dr. Lyte. Dude is trying to fix toxicity by changing font colors at the loading screen.

RoG VahnJun 4, 20151 votes

this is just my opinion and i know everyone on the boards is going to crucify me for it but i think lyte is a dam idiot... he knows as much about getting rid of toxicity as dr phil knows about psychology.

SexyTaylorSwiftJun 4, 20152 votes

Bro, Lyte doens't know as much about League as Dr. Oz knows about medicine.