There is really only one problem with ADC itemization

Mizaya·Oct 22, 2017·20 votes·1,104 views

Stattik Shiv + IE.

This is a very strong powerspike at 2 items, as Shiv's Crit value as well as energize value get amplified by the purchase of IE. This burst of damage makes ADCs that build the two items much stronger than they would be with another zeal item if they crit.

That being said, I'm seeing a lot of posts claiming crit itemization as wholly overpowered. But, if we take pre-marksman rework itemization and current itemization and compare them side by side, pre-rework wins in terms of DPS (Think PD having 50% AS and 35% crit), while having just about the same cost.

Which leads us to conclude: is the power of ADCs in the meta then a result of a couple of items (Shiv being the main culprit, and Shiv + RFC as 2 items), or is it because of something else. Or, more likely, it is some of both, but very likely the latter.

32 Comments

KaìjuOct 22, 20174 votes

ADC main here, I started in season 4 and even back then I knew Statik IE was bullshit, or whenever it was I realized you could crit the AOE damage. I personally would buff RFC so that it's extra range effect lasts maybe 2 seconds, but you can't buy shiv if you do, kinda like Titanic. And the 2 second duration for range is because nobody ever buys RFC without getting Statik, so they need to do something to make it appealing and allowing a small window of siege or more safety seems better. It would work well on Marksmen with high attack speed to get maybe 4 hits I but lower ones only 2.

LegacyDAPOct 22, 20172 votes

Biggest problem with crit is that there isn't many crit items, but the crit items have a lot of crit on them. Statik has 30%, RFC has 30%, and PD has 30%, and Runaan's has 30%. Why aren't there like 6 items with 20% crit chance like IE? Why they all have to give 30%?

Now that I think about it. The biggest problem with crit is how inconsistent it is.

Chembaron YamadaOct 22, 20179 votes

They have these values to allow you high % of crit, while still having room for an armor pen item, boots and a lifesteal item.

The problem with the marksman role is that they need really many stats to do their job properly.

AD, AS, Crit, armor pen, lifesteal and some want CDR And they should at least come close to 100% crit to make their damage reliable.

Compare these to other classes. Juggernauts: AD (mostly just 1 item dedicated for that), HP, Armor, MR Mages: AP, MR pen, HP Assassin: AD, CDR, Armor pen/lethality Tanks: HP, Armor, MR, CDR

ErockandrollOct 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

They have these values to allow you high % of crit, while still having room for an armor pen item, boots and a lifesteal item.

The problem with the marksman role is that they need really many stats to do their job properly.

What gets me is that they have to build glass cannon to actually do their job as a DPS, while everyone who were able to capitalizing off the fact that their glass, was deemed unhealthy.

ErockandrollOct 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

They have these values to allow you high % of crit, while still having room for an armor pen item, boots and a lifesteal item.

The problem with the marksman role is that they need really many stats to do their job properly.

What gets me is that they have to build glass cannon to actually do their job as a DPS, while everyone who were able to capitalizing off the fact that their glass, was deemed unhealthy.

ErockandrollOct 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

They have these values to allow you high % of crit, while still having room for an armor pen item, boots and a lifesteal item.

The problem with the marksman role is that they need really many stats to do their job properly.

What gets me is that they have to build glass cannon to actually do their job as a DPS, while everyone who were able to capitalizing off the fact that their glass, was deemed unhealthy.

Champion SkinOct 22, 20171 votes

Juggernauts: AD (mostly just 1 item dedicated for that), HP, Armor, MR

CDR is often more valuable than AD for juggernauts because of them often having high base damage and low cooldowns (and they often have some utility/defense like % missing health healing and such)

And they should at least come close to 100% crit to make their damage reliable.

close to 100% crit is incredibly powerful you know? As that's increasing AA damage by up to 150% (total 250%)

And if they want crit to be reliable they should nerf crit damage and buff crit chance that would make it less bursty and more reliable

Tik115Oct 22, 20172 votes

High crit % makes the damage TOO Reliable

Pre-ADC Rework Carries had to make a difficult choices with their builds

Do they forgo DPS for more Armour pen? Do they forgo Armour pen for better damage vs Squishies? Do they forgo both for more sustain?

This meant certain carries worked well with certain builds and certain comps, This meant the enemy had some form of counter picking, Enemy team picked Tristana? Ok I'll pick Caitlyn and use her early game to try to keep her down before her mid game, Enemy team picked Kog Maw? Ok I'll pick Lucian and attempt to dominate the early and mid game before he hits late

Nowerdays it is just "Pick a hypercarry, build 80-100% crit" there's no variety no rock paper scissors of ADCs and the abundance of Crit is one of the main causes, a tank or a mage has to sacrifice aspects of their build depending on situations yet ADCs don't.

Frankly we need to revert the ADC itemization changes if we want even a hope of it going back to that

HaIlMonitorOct 22, 20171 votes

Nowerdays it is just "Pick a hypercarry, build 80-100% crit" there's no variety no rock paper scissors of ADCs and the abundance of Crit is one of the main causes, a tank or a mage has to sacrifice aspects of their build depending on situations yet ADCs don't.

This is because people complained about lane bullies for months because Lucian/Jhin/Draven/MF were all "too strong" (Cait can be deleted though). So they all got nerfed, which turns the game into what is is now. If you cant shut down kog by 15 to 20ish, which right now you basically cant, so you auto lose so why not just pick kog.

ParoeOct 22, 20174 votes

{quoted}

They have these values to allow you high % of crit, while still having room for an armor pen item, boots and a lifesteal item.

The problem with the marksman role is that they need really many stats to do their job properly.

AD, AS, Crit, armor pen, lifesteal and some want CDR And they should at least come close to 100% crit to make their damage reliable.

Compare these to other classes. Juggernauts: AD (mostly just 1 item dedicated for that), HP, Armor, MR Mages: AP, MR pen, HP Assassin: AD, CDR, Armor pen/lethality Tanks: HP, Armor, MR, CDR

Marksmen need only ASP and AD. They WANT AD, ASP, Crit, pen, and lifesteal.

Just like mages want AP, CDR, movespeed, HP but only need AP and CDR.

MizayaOct 22, 20172 votes

Crit is currently the 2nd largest part of their budget. You have IE and 2 Zeal items? That's 3200 of crit, but factor in IE and it goes to 4800. AS is anywhere from 2500-2800. AD is by far the biggest portion at 8050+.

It's different from mages, whose damage is basically a factor of 2 stats, whereas for marksmen it's 4.

ParoeOct 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Crit is currently the 2nd largest part of their budget. You have IE and 2 Zeal items? That's 3200 of crit, but factor in IE and it goes to 4800. AS is anywhere from 2500-2800. AD is by far the biggest portion at 8050+.

It's different from mages, whose damage is basically a factor of 2 stats, whereas for marksmen it's 4.

Crit is cheap though. Compare item 3147 (2900) to item 3087 (2600); comparatively, shiv is extremely over loaded and cheaper. Not to mention the fact that unlike other classes marksmen simply get handed all the stats they could ever want.

Marksmen also easily break 300AD with a standard build... If a 100% crit build can break 300AD imagine how effective a traditional build is?

IcyPepperOct 22, 20171 votes

The problem with the marksman role is that they need really many stats to be mandatory in bot lane without any real competition from other classes

ftfy

KaìjuOct 22, 20171 votes

The issue is as the other guy said, you need too many stats. If crit didn't have these high ass numbers of chance you would need like 5 items for say 90% crit and at that point you have nothing else. The only ways around that would be either to do what we have now and keep high crit chance so 3 items gives about 75% chance or raise the number of items. And the number of items is not raising.

Champion SkinOct 22, 20171 votes

Riot should increase crit chance... but nerf crit damage which would make crit more reliable and be less bursty

KaìjuOct 22, 20171 votes

Honestly I agree. You should be able to get say 70 or 80% off two items but only get say 50 AD out of it, letting you build more items that can actually do something else for you. It would increase build diversity without breaking things I think. Of course Yasuo would have to be toned down since he could then basically hit 100% with one item but oh well what a loss :^)

SSShutTheDuckUpOct 22, 20172 votes

There are A LOT of problems with crit itemization. It is far too cheap for its power and far too powerful for its price

MizayaOct 22, 20172 votes

The problem is the early-midgame spike. The power curve now actually levels out sooner than it did pre-rework, and has a lower ceiling in terms of raw DPS. This is a statistical fact; endgame ADC builds are weaker than before and cheaper by only about 100 gold.

Which leads to one of two possible conclusions based on your opinion: ADC builds have always been problematic, with the exception of early season perhaps, when they were weak enough to not be used. In this case, ADC itemization has been more often broken than not, and was monstrously overtuned during season 2. Or, it's that in the context of this meta, ADC itemization is stronger than before rework; not statistically, as we've already gone over that, but relatively.

SSShutTheDuckUpOct 22, 20171 votes

In the tank update armor became harder to obtain, and that matters. To the point where marksmen melt tanks midgame without last whisperer. Tanks simply have no answer to the triple crit powerspike. You may be on the right track, with the word "relatively" here, but there is more. We also have the combination of shields/lifesteal. Combine that with the state of anti-caries and you get unkillable marksmen. That is not only support itemization problem, because almost no mage (save Vlad and Swain) becomes this level of unkillable with the help of a support. My point is that it is not just one thing, it is a combination of a lot. And the result is this disgusting state of right-clickers we have now

yoshi2790Oct 22, 20172 votes

It's also way too early into the game! item 3031 3400g + item 3087 2600g = 6000g. For a late game focused, 'I get all the gold in the game' and 'I also have a babysit' role, this is too cheap for everything it gives. It is stronger than tank items: item 3075 item 3083 item 3025 item 3742 item 3068 and doesn't even cost much more!

Give item 3031 it's plus 10 ad back, for 3800 gold and give zeal items increased cost by 400 gold. (doesn't need a buff IMO.) item 3094 item 3087 synergises WAY too well, is WAY too cost-efficient and too cheap.

ADC's spike in the midgame instead of the late game. Just listen to LCS KogMaw with item 3124 item 1001 Caster: Wow Kog'maw has spiked and will deal huge damage! Caitlyn item 3031 item 3087 Caster: She will be so strong right now! Better watch out, you don't want to get caught!

I'm fine with ADC being super strong late game, but not with 2 items at 15-20 minutes. ONLY in the late game.

FlameHalbrdOkidoOct 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It's also way too early into the game! 3400g + 2600g = 6000g. For a late game focused, 'I get all the gold in the game' and 'I also have a babysit' role, this is too cheap for everything it gives. It is stronger than tank items: and doesn't even cost much more!

Give it's plus 10 ad back, for 3800 gold and give zeal items increased cost by 400 gold. (doesn't need a buff IMO.) synergises WAY too well, is WAY too cost-efficient and too cheap.

ADC's spike in the midgame instead of the late game. Just listen to LCS with Caster: Wow Kog'maw has spiked and will deal huge damage! Caster: She will be so strong right now! Better watch out, you don't want to get caught!

I'm fine with ADC being super strong late game, but not with 2 items at 15-20 minutes. ONLY in the late game.

Agreed with the caviat that not ALL marksmen should have the samd lvl of access to the same lvl or burst, safety, or DPS respectively if ur building one of those 3 the other 2 NEED to fall off

Stats like life steal should be niche on marksmen, such that if ur building u should be giving up other stats. So bloodthirster probably shouldn't give much AD.

MizayaOct 22, 20172 votes

I haven't looked much into ADC power curves relative to tank power curves, might do that next. But yes, ADC power curves seem to be shifted farther left. While your power curve before the rework had a higher ceiling (17900 value of DPS stats for 16600 gold vs 17050 for 16500) , the current one is stronger for the most relevant parts of the game due to items like Shiv which allow for bursting/poking.

You also mentioned Kog, who I think is as strong as he is in competitive because of Ardent Censer. With item 3124 you get 3 hits of censer for every 2 autoattacks.

SwiftKitten88Oct 22, 20172 votes

there is also item 3508

which gives adc's 30% cdr for thier normal build which. cause the lot of the "sustained burst" issues adc arn't SUPPOSED to get CDR.

Shuyin178Oct 22, 20171 votes

Statikk Shiv + Rapid Firecannon

Biscuit BiteOct 22, 20171 votes

So, you just want adc more useless than they are. ADC should do the most damage in the game and assassins should kill single targets easly.

MizayaOct 22, 20172 votes

Actually, I'd prefer ADC to be reworked (again, I know). But it's not like Twitch is much different than he's been in the past, and Kog was basically un-reworked. They're really just archaic designs that need to be changed.

AleksaTeemoOct 22, 20171 votes

Kog is OP cause of rage blade.That item makes him too strong tbh.

FlameHalbrdOkidoOct 22, 20171 votes

Honestly what could go wrong if they removed crit, reduced crit or reworked it 2 do something else. Tho I do like the idea of spreading it out over more items.

Crit is bad but life steal is probably worse I don't think it should be easily as assessible to marksmen, as it should be meant b for other classes namely the melee ones, it doesn't make sense on marksmen health wise given all the other advantages they have.

Additionally not all marksmen should have the same lol of access to burst items

I think that they should go back to being good at DPS

Serika ZeroOct 22, 20171 votes

the only reason people complained about ADCs being weak at the start of the season was the 4-5 man parties bot. once players got used to it, they adapted and adc lulz21k7 was just but a meme.

tho, riot didn't get the memo and buffed the living shit ouf of adcs even tho they started to do well once more.

MizayaOct 22, 20172 votes

If I remember correctly, early in the season you'd have junglers like Kha'Zix and Nidalee, who'd camp bot and get super fed and proceed to make the ADCs useless, so people adapted and the Jhin and Varus meta was born. Junglers were often outpacing everyone else in gold and xp at that time.

That got nerfed, and lethality did as well. Enchanters and crit items got buffed along with that, then mid laners received nerfs, as well as indirectly through base MR buffs. It's not that Riot outright did the wrong thing, cause that meta was far from perfect. They just went way too far, nerfing absolutely everything that was strong in that meta and buffing what was weak, when they had to realize that nerfing one big part of the meta is going to have a ripple effect.