Keystones: Almost Every One Needs to be Tied to a Cool Down

Meep Man··26 votes·1,822 views

This is due to the fact that innate, passive Keystones tend to end up feeling underpowered or overpowered OR underwhelming. Not only this, but it has much less balance levers than a Keystone with a cool down. This is the current problem with most of the Keystones to where the hidden, innate power a lot of them provide can feel rather underwhelming, even if maybe they are OP. Heck, maybe Bond of Stone is secretly having the most impact on the game of all of them BUT WHO WOULD KNOW? Point is, all Keystones should be a slightly more powerful effect tied to a cool down. For example:

Grasp of the Undying Your next basic attack against an enemy champion deals bonus magic damage equal to 10% of your max health and healing you for 5% of your max health. (Halved in effectiveness for ranged champions) The cool down of this effect is reduced by 1.5 seconds (0.75 seconds for ranged basic attacks) every time you deal damage with a basic attack/spell to an enemy champion (max one reduction per spell cast). (25-20 second cool down)

Instantly feel the increased power? Yes, but the difference is it can only happen every 15 seconds compared to once every 4 seconds potentially. Another example:

Bond of Stone When a nearby ally takes damage that would put them below 30% max health, they are granted a shield equal to 14% of your max health or 9% of your mana pool for 5 seconds, whichever one is greater. The same target cannot be affected by an instance of Bond of Stone more than once every 12 seconds. (45-30 second cool down)

DOESN'T THAT FEEL BETTER!? Yes, a cool down based Keystone instead of just some hidden passive only you really notice feels much better.

41 Comments

Big Lincoln7 votes

Grasp would be terrible at it's intended purpose for bruiser sustain

Meep Man5 votes

Yeah, it could probably be better, just giving an example.

EDIT: To try and make it a better example for the Keystone itself, I edited it although I was just giving an example.

Enlegacy5 votes

7000 hp zac one shot incoming.

Meep Man3 votes

Good luck with that

nice table1 votes

im already bursting ppl in 2 sec with voli but im down for this

Snowball4u2 votes

Bond of Stone When a nearby ally takes damage while below 30% max health, they are granted a shield equal to 14% of your max health or 9% of your mana pool for 5 seconds, whichever one is greater. (45-30 second cool down)

Thats not strong that is another courage problem that we already have

Meep Man2 votes

???

What's a courage problem? Courage of the Colossus is a problem because it's too strong (slightly, it's not too too strong, just a little strong).

Steelflame3 votes

No, I really don't want an ADC getting a free 560 hp shield just because he was close to his alistar support. Thats increasing the HP pool I gotta burn through by 25%, on a class that is already dangerously close to "drain tank" status come lategame. Add in Locket+FOTM shields, and you could theoretically flat out double your ADC's effective hp pool.

50000000000000001 votes

I mean, that's what Bond of Stone is supposed to do.

Meep Man4 votes

Bond of Stone already effectively adds about as much health to an ally since it is permanent and not a temporary shield. To be honest, that sounds more like an issue with ADCs than the Keystone's already current function.

Steelflame1 votes

Except Bond only adds aprox 8.4% extra hp over their entire life pool. Not 25%. It is also coming at a distinct cost of doing that to the support instead, where as your shield is just instantly applied to the ADC. Yes, technically current bond can eventually outdo it, but it takes far too many health pools of the ADC, that by that point you may very well have gotten a second set of the CD for that support to shield the ADC with again. Bond's damage shielding as is isn't free of charge, and unless you made it directly chunk the supports HP (which would then make it feel very bad for the support, instead), it won't work on a balance level unless you once again make the numbers so low as to not exist. At which point, we will just go right back to CoC.

You have to Bond-tank THREE entire ADC life pools for current bond to be better than your version.

LordGeovanni1 votes

if you factor in life steal it could be more by the very nature of lifesteal and how adcs are the only class than can use it effectively anymore

LordGeovanni1 votes

exactly

LordGeovanni1 votes

courage of the colossus is a problem because people see a large sheild and complain that they cant break it dont mind that for half its duration they cant attack it in the first place and its duration is super short

Kled Man Walking2 votes

yeah, that's one of the biggest problems i have with bond of stone. even if they tune it to be busted as fuck it's just so boring and only makes people who want to protect their allies better at their job, as opposed to giving them a new tool to play with

i have the same problem with windspeaker's

Meep Man1 votes

Windspeaker's is weird because I honestly can't think of a way to translate it into an active that wouldn't be stupidly good or useless.

Jet Sett2 votes

Every 15-25 seconds healing or shielding an ally results in it being 15(not exact number) % stronger and grants 5-20 bonus mr and armor for 3 seconds. None of these are exact numbers but you get the point.

Barrclaw1 votes

Which is why not every Keystone needs to be on an active/cooldown. If you are a good player and are aware of your masteries and the game in general then passive masteries feel just as good if not better than cooldown based masteries

DunkinNoobs2 votes

That Grasp just looks like a way better Thunderlords.

Meep Man1 votes

Only if you build defensive items

Barrclaw2 votes

Fervor, DFT, Warlords, and Windspeakers would all feel shitty or be underpowered or hard to balance if changed to some sort of cool down. And your solution to grasp doesn't really change enough to justify putting work into changing and rebalancing it all over again.

NiceTryVi1 votes

I agree with your point on Fervor and Windspeakers, but Warlords is really busted though, you basically get a bloodthirster when low life, and when you have a Runaan's, like every ADC gets, you can do what everyone hates twitch for. Standing still, facetanking everything, and healing all the damage back because you have 20% LS on top of whatever LS you have already bought. If they lowered the numbers, like only 5% flat LS, or 10% max when below 25%, then I would be more ok with it. DFT needs a cooldown, but balancing a DoT cooldown is hard. Maybe it wont be applied if the target either is already suffering a DoT, or it doesn't work on abilities(including passive/innate) that apply DoT. This way, poison/fire users cant just chunk you for 1/2 your HP with one ability and a Liandry's.

Barrclaw1 votes

Not every ADC builds Runaan's and even if they did the life steal on the additional bolts would need to be tuned down, not the sources of lifesteal themselves, because again, not every ADC takes warlords or builds BT every game. DFT would need to do ignite-ish levels of damage to be viable if put on a cooldown. If the damage it does doesn't get a buff and it is put on cooldown then DFT will be completely useless. Furthermore if DFT is put on a cooldown and given whatever damage is balanced then taking DFT would be good for trading and would take up the same role as thunderlords, whichever one is better at that on the given patch would be used by every mage that can trade in lane and DFT will only be taken in very niche situations on heavy poke champions. ADC's that take it now would be garbage or forced onto a worse keystone. Huge changes like you are suggesting completely needless, Riot just needs to make changes to what applies DFT and take a look at runaans, they don't need to completely change how the keystones work.

NiceTryVi1 votes

Right now, pretty much every ADC builds Runaans. If they don't already build lifesteal or take Warlord's, why should they care about lifesteal being lowered? DFT does to ignit-ish levels of damage later in the game. I didn't suggest colldown for it though, in fact i specifically said putting it on a CD and keeping balance would be very hard. Instead, I suggested making it unable to proc on someone already suffering a DoT. Read before you type.

Barrclaw1 votes

Jhin Lucian Ezreal Vayne and Draven, at least half if not the majority of the ADCs in the meta right now all don't build runaans. Also, Lets say they do lower the lifesteal from warlords and other lifesteal sources, then later on down the line they nerf runaans, guess what now ADCs are even more fucked than they are now. This is all without considering that with the state of ADCs right now taking any power away from them is almost certainly a bad idea, I am not completely against the lowering of the lifesteal offered by Warlords or nerfing runaans to give less lifesteal on the additional bolts, but maybe those changes can wait until playing ADC doesn't feel like an shit. Furthermore if Riot nerfs DFT and makes it not able to trigger at all on champions already affected by DOTs then almost ever champion with a DOT that takes DFT will need compensation buffs. With these two changes combined Riot would be fucking around with the balance of all the champions affected for a needlessly large amount of time and neglecting other things that might need changes, or they could go the complete other route and make these changes then neglect the champions affected possibly leaving them massively under or over powered derpending on if/when compensation buffs happen.

Think before you type.

NiceTryVi1 votes

Not only is Lucian not in the meta, he has a winrate of 43.5% the nearly same winrate as Kalista(43.4%) right now, and is the 5th from the bottom of all champions. Draven and Ezreal, while having slightly better winrates, are still at 48.5% and 47.3%. Neither are meta. Jhin and Vayne are the only 2 meta ADCs of the ones you just mentioned. However, if you calim that half the ADCs don't build runaans, then what is the problem with nerfing it? And if they lower lifesteal, nerfing runaan's will not make them doubly as weak, as all lowering lifesteal does is mean they have to actually use it out of combat instead of being draintanks. DoT champions will not need buffs. The whole point of a NERF is to NERF CHAMPS.

You are still the one that needs to think before you type.

Barrclaw1 votes

Sorry but the one who needs to think before they type is still you because these changes are big enough to disrupt the game to the point that the only time they could make such changes is during the mid or preseason. Because of this they don't know what is going to be in meta at the time they would theoretically make these changes, therefore they would need to account for every ADC that doesn't have a major rework that might potentially build this item being in meta at the time they make this change, not to mention that league is always changing and what might be meta now might now be meta next patch so they have to account for that before making such major changes. Also you need to realize that the point of buffing and nerfing champions and items in league of legends is to make every thing balanced. Nerfing a whole class of champions to no longer be viable is and then trying to make them viable again later on down the line when other things are more balanced is beyond stupid unless they plan on doing full reworks on these champions which I doubt as they already did rework most if not all of the DOT mages. You clearly have no concept of healthy game design or development. Think about what you are suggesting and what it means for the game as a whole then type things. You can respond to this if you want, but know I won't read it, you have demonstrated that you have no knowledge of healthy game design and are not worth talking to. Learn to think ahead before you type

NiceTryVi1 votes

I did think about what I wrote. Why should ADCs be 100% neccessary, and be strong enough to do whatever they want? You don't get to be the one role that gets to have everything. ADCs are glass cannons. They should have damage, but no survivability. ADCs are not supposed to be able to do things alone, and they are finally out of their overly-strong 2 seasons of dominance. Now everyone else is doing to them what ADCs were doing to the rest of the champion roster for a year and a half.

Barrclaw1 votes

Just Because they don't have to be 100% necessary doesn't mean they have to be weak to the point of being useless. Furthermore just because ADC's were strong doesn't mean it is good game design to let them be weak and let the rest of the champions shit all over them. Like I said you have no idea what healthy game design is, and this same backwards logic that you are using is the same bullshit that black lives matter is using right now to justify them being racists.

NiceTryVi1 votes

Nah, cause here is the thing. ADCs are how they should be right now. I am happy that they now know what it feels like to be shit on by people, because they have been unjustly doing that for a year. ADCs should not be able to go off alone, because they have such good damage. That is the point of an ADC, solid, consisted DPS at the cost of dying really fast. You can't have it all.

Barrclaw1 votes

You clearly have no grasp of what healthy game design is, I am not saying that they should be able to go off alone but you are clearly more concerned with emotion rather than good game design and if that is the case then get the hell off the boards

NiceTryVi1 votes

No, I clearly have a greater grasp than you do. I want them to stay the way they are because in their current state, they are how a glass cannon should be. You are desperately trying to conceal your blindingly obvious preference for ADCs, and you fail to realize that the way they were for the past year was exceedingly unhealthy. Just because you main ADC doesn't mean that you should magically get to play overpowered champions. I main junglers, and I think the state of the jungle is atrociously overpowered. I understand game health perfectly. You do not. I am not concerned with emotion, I am just happy that now that ADCs are back down where they should be, and it is icing on the cake that people that so gleefully destroyed people so unfairly are now bitching about their mains. You don't seem to be able to differentiate between the two apparently, just like you refuse to acknowledge overpoweredness.

Barrclaw1 votes

I acknowledge that ADC's were overpowered, I am saying that in the state they are now a little too weak due to changes made in preseason and power creep. When I accused you of being only concerned with emotion it was because you said "I am happy that they now know what it feels like to be shit on by people" which I agree with to a point. I love shitting all over a yasuo main, but I don't think that champ should be gutted just because he is annoying. What I am saying is that for the amount of skill in mechanics and positioning it takes to effectively play ADC this season it takes incredibly little to kill an ADC. With a big tank meta and shiny new support items that should make peeling and protecting the ADC in a team fight easy, there seems to be an overwhelming amount of champions that can just ignore all the peel and insta burst an ADC out of no where. Sure this can be countered by playing long range champions with self peel, like Caitlyn and Ezreal, but believe it or not we don't want to play the same 2 champions in every game because insane dive and insta-burst from enemy champions. People who have enjoyed maining ADC for some time, as in long before they were OP recently, are leaving the role because it feels like such shit. Which is unhealthy, if you can't recognize that and acknowledge that something needs to change then you would be the one who can't seem to acknowledge over and underpoweredness

NiceTryVi1 votes

Ok, here is what you don't understand. ADC should feel like shit to play most of the time. You know why? An ADC can singlehandedly take a tower in only a few seconds, and they don't really rely on abilities. There are far more silences than blinds in this game, so the likelihood that you are unable to do damage compared to a caster is tiny. An ADC cal also do this damage from quite a distance away, and often have either a dash or a slow built into their kits to kite melee champions. You complaining about skill in mechanics and positioning only shows how ADCs players have become removed from what an ADC is supposed to be. You have forgotten how to actually play the game, and instead have relied on tons of damage to just obliterate anyone coming at you. Now that you cant instakill everything anymore, you actually have to think. ADCs are fine right now, and I guarantee you anyone bitching is an ADC main that wants their overpowered champs back so they can faceroll and be the star again. This IS balanced right now, and turns out, you don't like balance.

Barrclaw1 votes

Wow you are fucking mind blowingly stupid, you have no idea what you are typing, have fun being a fucking idiot the rest of your life. My evidence for this in case you are wondering is the fact that you say a major role in the meta should feel like shit to play. NEWS FLASH RETARD NO ROLE IN A GAME SHOULD FEEL LIKE SHIT TO PLAY. You talk about me being biased but no one who isn't biased against ADC would say that shit and mean it. You have no fucking clue about game design, your word means jack shit, fuck you for wasting mine and anyone else's time on the boards who actually want to have a discussion about this. Get off the boards and let the sound minded people have real discussions fuck face.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Lit

+1

Avios11 votes

Do one for Warlord's Bloodlust! :D

Meep Man1 votes

I would prefer they rework the current functionality since sustain from anything usually leads to... issues...

However, IF I were to rework it, it would probably be something like:

Warlord's Bloodlust Upon falling below 50% health, heal yourself for 15-30% of all physical damage dealt to enemy champions for the next 5-7 seconds. (60-30 second cool down)

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

Isn't CotC an example of your idea not working out? Even Thunderlords maybe.

Meep Man1 votes

Anything can be busted, but at least those aren't boring to use.

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