Isn't Zed techincally an AP champ?

Cloud273·Mar 13, 2016·3 votes·3,150 views

Before you downvote this, please read what I have to say. This applies to not just Zed, but literally ANYONE that goes mid. AP=ability power. Meaning a champion who relies on their ABILITIES for damage. Even though Zed doesn't actually have much AP scaling in his kit, he does rely mostly on his abilities for damage for (and then wins the auto attack war when everything in on cooldown), so in this regard he is an AP mid. Having said this, he is comparable to most other AP champs. So how is Zed different than other mid champs, except for him being slightly overtuned at the moment?

30 Comments

Vistha KaiMar 13, 20168 votes

It's like calling full AD Ezreal an AP champion.

No, he is what you call a "caster". Casters' main source of damage are abilities and can be either AD or AP.

Wînter FoxMar 13, 20165 votes

{quoted}

AP=ability power. Meaning a champion who relies on their ABILITIES for damage.

By that definition every champion is an AP champion

Cloud273Mar 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

By that definition every champion is an AP champion

Implying ADC's don't exist.

SwapShadowsMar 13, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Implying ADC's don't exist.

they use abilities tho

Cloud273Mar 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

they use abilities tho

They don't rely on them for damage though. Unlike auto attacks, abilities (most of them) can't crit, and this is where most of the damage comes from.

EndlessSorcererMar 13, 20164 votes

Corki Graves Ezreal Kindred Lucian MissFortune Quinn Varus

These are some ADCs who rely heavily on their abilities for damage.

Your argument is quite mistaken.

EndlessSorcererMar 13, 20164 votes

Zed is an AD Caster.

He is not--in any way, shape, or form--an AP champion.

AD (Attack Damage) and AP (Ability Power) refer to completely different stats in the game.

Big LincolnMar 13, 20163 votes

because he's an AD champion

IronwallJacksonMar 13, 20162 votes

No, because he builds AD instead of AP. So he isn't an AP mid.

MrBearhugMar 13, 20162 votes

Well I'll try and give you a really in depth answer . I wonder this sort of thing a lot as well, not specifically with Zed(I've never played the champ one time just FYI) but with most champs that seem to have multiple abilities with poor AP scaling. You can see this with some of the Devourer Junglers to be even more specific (shyvana). I see her built either tank or with AS/AD/Lifesteal. I'm pretty sure she has at least 2 abilities that scale with ap, but you don't typically see her built with a rylai's.

However you have confused abilities/spells with the type of damage they deal. SO lets just clear that part up. All champs have abilities, but what defines a champion as AD or AP is the respective AP/AD ratios on the champs most important abilities. This also needs to account for passives. There are only a few champs that have kits with either ALL AD or AP ratios on all of their abilities. SO you wouldn't consider ZED to be an AP champion based on his use of abilities, rather HE would be considered AP if required AP items to do AP damage. SO AP zed would have a build based on AP items.

What separates him from AP Midlaners( I.E viktor) is item build . According to his wikia he has no AP ratios whatsoever. SO he would actually yield very little damage from building AP items. Now he could use some of the stats an AP item would give and have it be useful, but his abilities wouldn't necessarily do much more damage from hitting an enemy. Unless its something that has on hit effects/AA effects. For example Pretty sure Rylai's would still slow, and maybe Liandry's would do damage over time(never tested so try it out and see). However, his abilities would still be doing base damage even with 400 ap since he has no ratios that use AP. Works the exact same way in reverse, however your basic attacks will obviously grow in strength (AD zil or something like that)

Let's look in depth more here for fun. I'll use a champ i know well for my example, Rengar. AP Rengar changes his play style rather dramatically. Rengar uses his abilities in quick succession, and then if need be, likes to reset before reloading the combo again (Sorry if you knew this). Most people would consider him "AD"and his kit has mostly ad ratios (Q,E) , but his W has a very stout ap ratio(70%). So you stack a few items, and get ahead in the game, and you're a jumping kitty with a very deadly roar. However since the rest of his kit is focused around doing AD, u can be in a bad spot if you miss that ability, or screw up the combo for the max burst. So its easier to deal more consistent damage building AD Rengar vs AP Rengar since you only have one source of AP to deal AP damage with. He's still technically an AD champ despite my enjoyment. Rengar

I find it strange and intriguing that champs have ap and ad ratios. Especially on new champs like JHIN, who has great ap and ad ratios. So it comes down to a couple things - Personal Preference (play your way, tho your way may not be efficient/easy) - And of course LOL Math - What items will make your champ and its abilities do the most damage and/or have the most utility or a combination of both. Many players use the mathematically correct builds to determine what damage type a champ is, But there's nothing wrong with having fun right?!?!

I hope SOMEONE READS THIS(LOL) and found this useful! I feel the community can be a little to dismissive at times.

DediguiseMar 13, 20161 votes

Oh man.....oh man....... Sooooooooo no. A champion that relies on their abilities is termed a caster regardless of which stat they scale off of.. Examples of other AD casters are Riven Lucian LeeSin Pantheon Talon Jayce . As you can see some of these champs are mid laners. Some of them aren't.

Elite4RunnerMar 13, 20161 votes

... what? AP or Ability Power is a in game statistic that can be increased in order to emPower abilities and effects that scale on this statistic. It doesn't matter how much Ability Power you have on Zed, none of his abilities will deal more damage unless you have a mastery or item that utilizes AP.

The reason why the current meta places AP champions in the midlane is because most high AP items are expensive, so by not sharing farm or experience the midlaner is able to afford to purchase those needed items. They need these more valuable items in order to deal a large amount of magic damage to counter the enemy team building armor in order to resist the amount of damage an ADC will be able to output. In reality, an AD champion could be mid lane, or a tank, or an assassin, or even a support (most likely one who is good at roaming). Simply being in the mid-lane does not mean you are an AP champion. The reverse is true. An AP champion could be in the bottom lane along with a support. The reason this is not as common is because AP champions typically do not scale up in power as quickly as AD champions, so that lane is likely to be over pressured by an opposing AD / Support combo.

Cloud273Mar 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

... what? AP or Ability Power is a in game statistic that can be increased in order to emPower abilities and effects that scale on this statistic. It doesn't matter how much Ability Power you have on Zed, none of his abilities will deal more damage unless you have a mastery or item that utilizes AP.

The reason why the current meta places AP champions in the midlane is because most high AP items are expensive, so by not sharing farm or experience the midlaner is able to afford to purchase those needed items. They need these more valuable items in order to deal a large amount of magic damage to counter the enemy team building armor in order to resist the amount of damage an ADC will be able to output. In reality, an AD champion could be mid lane, or a tank, or an assassin, or even a support (most likely one who is good at roaming). Simply being in the mid-lane does not mean you are an AP champion. The reverse is true. An AP champion could be in the bottom lane along with a support. The reason this is not as common is because AP champions typically do not scale up in power as quickly as AD champions, so that lane is likely to be over pressured by an opposing AD / Support combo.

The term "ability power" has multiple meanings.

Elite4RunnerMar 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The term "ability power" has multiple meanings.

No lol, it really doesn't. At least not in this game. Your ability can be powerful, but it is not as a result of the Ability Power stat. You may be using it like that but you are going to get responses from people who will not know what the hell you are talking about ,.... as you can see.

Cloud273Mar 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No lol, it really doesn't. At least not in this game. Your ability can be powerful, but it is not as a result of the Ability Power stat. You may be using it like that but you are going to get responses from people who will not know what the hell you are talking about ,.... as you can see.

I clearly explained it in the OP. It's not like they don't know what I'm talking about. They're just not listening (or agreeing).

Elite4RunnerMar 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I clearly explained it in the OP. It's not like they don't know what I'm talking about. They're just not listening (or agreeing).

But the whole topic of this post was to redefine Zed as an AP (Ability Power) champion. By definition, no he is not. Yes, we know what you are saying, but there is already a term for what you are describing, AD Caster.

Cloud273Mar 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But the whole topic of this post was to redefine Zed as an AP (Ability Power) champion. By definition, no he is not. Yes, we know what you are saying, but there is already a term for what you are describing, AD Caster.

Ok fine. I can agree that he is not an AP caster. He's simply a "caster" champ, like pretty much every other mid. That's why people go mid in the first place. You're not going to win an auto attack war with someone. You're not a duelist. You rely on your abilities for damage. Whether they scale off AD or AP, it's the same thing.

MysteriousBootieMar 13, 20161 votes

lol by that logic every single champ in the game is an AP champion, because EVERY CHAMP IN THE GAME relies on abilities.

QuephaMar 13, 20161 votes

He doesn't deal magic damage. That's the most important part of being an "AP" champion because it determines what the enemy's itemization options are against him. You don't want your team to all deal the same type of damage or the enemy has an easier time itemizing their defense against them and will be able to muscle through team fights with superior gold efficiency in the late game.

Elite4RunnerMar 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

He doesn't deal magic damage. That's the most important part of being an "AP" champion because it determines what the enemy's itemization options are against him. You don't want your team to all deal the same type of damage or the enemy has an easier time itemizing their defense against them and will be able to muscle through team fights with superior gold efficiency in the late game.

You are on the right track, but not necessarily. It is true that most champions who scale on AP primarily deal magic damage (in fact I am having trouble thinking of any AP scaling champions who deal physical damage from abilities, but I bet there is at least one). However some champions have abilities that scale only or dominantly on AD also deal magic damage.

QuephaMar 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You are on the right track, but not necessarily. It is true that most champions who scale on AP primarily deal magic damage (in fact I am having trouble thinking of any AP scaling champions who deal physical damage from abilities, but I bet there is at least one). However some champions have abilities that scale only or dominantly on AD also deal magic damage.

That's irrelevant. Even if we're talking about a Corki pick who auto attacks a lot and builds a lot of AD, or a Mundo who doesn't need to build any damage at all, you still should consider them AP champions because they deal magic damage. The items they build for damage have no strategic implications while the type of damage they deal is very important to who the rest of his team should pick to maintain a balanced damage output.

Elite4RunnerMar 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

That's irrelevant. Even if we're talking about a Corki pick who auto attacks a lot and builds a lot of AD, or a Mundo who doesn't need to build any damage at all, you still should consider them AP champions because they deal magic damage. The items they build for damage have no strategic implications while the type of damage they deal is very important to who the rest of his team should pick to maintain a balanced damage output.

It sounds to me like you are actually using a similar argument as Cloud273. Why would you call a champion AP if they have 0 AP? By this definition Shyvana (as one example) is more of an AP champion than an AD champion. A lot of her damage comes from her magic damage because her W is AOE magic damage, her E is magic damage and the %hp is dealt as magic damage, and her ultimate applies magic damage. I personally like playing Shyvana as an AP champion, but there is no doubt that it is more common for her to be built with AD or simply as a tank.

Ultimately though, you are correct about it being irrelevant because what we call something is really not important other than the way we communicate with each other.

QuephaMar 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

By this definition Shyvana (as one example) is more of an AP champion than an AD champion.

Because Shyvana IS an AP champion. If someone picks her on your team, you would say "oh she's an AP champion, she deals AP damage, so it's OK for us to have a Zed mid without worrying about the enemy winning simply by stacking armor."

Elite4RunnerMar 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Because Shyvana IS an AP champion. If someone picks her on your team, you would say "oh she's an AP champion, she deals AP damage, so it's OK for us to have a Zed mid without worrying about the enemy winning simply by stacking armor."

I really need to disagree with you. Shyvana is more commonly played as an AD champion. Yes, she has MORE abilities that deal magic damage, but by purchasing AD items and a little attack speed, she is able to deal more physical damage. While her W does scale on AD, it does not scale well, so despite increasing her damage output, it really doesn't increase it by much. However, debuffing someone with E and then combining that an AD heavy Q will ultimately lead to a heavier physical damage along with a %hp magic enhancement. Plus, relying more heavily on attack speed means that she is more likely to be built in combination with crit chance, .. both of which need a decent amount of AD in order to be effective.

Ultimately, this is a challenging champion to place because she can really fit into just about any role with some degree of success.

QuephaMar 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I really need to disagree with you. Shyvana is more commonly played as an AD champion. Yes, she has MORE abilities that deal magic damage, but by purchasing AD items and a little attack speed, she is able to deal more physical damage.

http://champion.gg/champion/Shyvana

First item: Devourer, an item that adds MAGIC damage to every auto attack

damage composition: 42% physical, 49% magical.

She's really more of a hybrid champion, but she deals more magical than physical.

LilxPaprikaMar 13, 20161 votes

he's an ad caster. most of his spell are aoe but since his ultimate and passive is single target which is what makes him assassin. assassins are mostly single target based.

Since he relies on energy he's also not quite as casty as Jayce or at least you would think.

overall zed has a bit of everything, he's not as casty as a mage, but definitely no tryndamere, master yi, shaco, trundle, adc...

FatalitýMar 13, 20161 votes

This doesn't make sense at all, By this statement every champ in the game would be AP because every champ uses their abilities for damage [zombie-brand-facepalm]

undesirable teamMar 13, 20161 votes

I like to think of it as "attack power" kek

FusarixMar 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Before you downvote this, please read what I have to say. This applies to not just Zed, but literally ANYONE that goes mid. AP=ability power. Meaning a champion who relies on their ABILITIES for damage. Even though Zed doesn't actually have much AP scaling in his kit, he does rely mostly on his abilities for damage for (and then wins the auto attack war when everything in on cooldown), so in this regard he is an AP mid. Having said this, he is comparable to most other AP champs. So how is Zed different than other mid champs, except for him being slightly overtuned at the moment?

wtf