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How to achieve 40% cooldown reduction on Vladimir now?

YumaS2Astral··3 votes·2,567 views

Since the mastery changes and the changes to item 3158, I am having a very hard time reaching 40% cooldown reduction on Vladimir.

I used to be able to get 40% CDR by using masteries, purchasing item 3152 and Ionians. Then either I used CDR runes, or I purchased item 3065, then I could finally get 40% CDR.

The problem is that this is no longer possible because there are no CDR masteries anymore, and Ionians has been nerfed to only give 10% CDR instead of 15%. If only it still had 15% CDR, I could just take CDR glyphs (but this would sacrifice MR runes, but it could be worth).

To be able to get 40% CDR on Vlad is impossible now, without using:

  • scaling cooldown reduction glyphs and a quint of scaling cooldown reduction
  • Purchasing item 3165 - I actually did it yesterday, even though the mana regeneration is completely useless for Vlad.
  • Purchasing item 3065 and using 6 scaling CDR glyphs.

The fact that Vladimir is a manaless champion makes it very hard to get CDR on him because most CDR options for APs come with mana regeneration or mana. And they say that Vladimir having no mana is an advantage, when it is actually one of his biggest shorcomes, because other than the fact that he can't go OOM, being manaless IS a drawback for him - at least being a manaless AND AP, because manaless AD champions have good options for CDR.

27 Comments

Cloud2734 votes

You know I'm not really sure, but I think Riot intentionally makes it hard for certain AP champs to get max CDR. That way they won't have to directly nerf them.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

You know I'm not really sure, but I think Riot intentionally makes it hard for certain AP champs to get max CDR. That way they won't have to directly nerf them.

Vladimir is the only AP manaless champion which not only benefits from, but DEPENDS from getting CDR.

Other manaless APs like Kennen Mordekaiser Rumble Akali Katarina can get CDR too but they do not rely nearly as much on it as Vlad. Kennen, Mordekaiser, and Akali want to burst their opponents, so they don't have to trade with them directly and as such do not need CDR. Rumble already has a lot of DPS and his cooldowns are low enough. Katarina gets her cooldowns reduced with her passive.

Vlad is the only one who directly relies on CDR to be able to out DPS his enemies. Being an AP champion, however, cooldown reduction options for him are extremely lacking. Even manaless AD champions like Riven can still easily get 40% CDR with the item options that they have.

SaltyKracka2 votes

So go 10% CDR in runes, or go without.

Claiming that being manaless is a weakness is all kinds of lol.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

So go 10% CDR in runes, or go without.

Claiming that being manaless is a weakness is all kinds of lol.

Being manaless is not exactly an weakness. It is just not that great of an advantage as people may think. Being able to use your spells without the risk of going OOM is good but that depends from the champion. Riven for example, is extremely problematic because not only she has absolutely no resource to spend to cast her spells, but she is also AD so she benefits very well from the many CDR options that they have, allowing her to spam her spells as if there was no tomorrow.

Vlad, on other hand, is an AP champion. Furthermore, his E and his W cost health to use. He can't actually spam his spells as much because he will be literally killing himself on doing that, unless he has spellvamp. Also, as an AP champion, he has very little options for CDR, because he is manaless.

I am saying that because some people love to mention Vlad being manaless as an excuse for him being broken, when being manaless is not that much of an advantage for him, and in some ways it is a disadvantage because it really limits his build (although if Vlad had mana he would probably have to use Rod of Ages and wouldn't be able to use WotA so he would still be limited, unless his mana costs were low enough to be insignificant)

Juggernaut6281 votes

There is still a CDR mastery, but you have to build into 5th tier in Cunning Tree for it.

BluePolarizer1 votes

no problem for Vlad to go into Cunning but the problem is it raises the CDR cap as well. It doesn't solve Vlad's problems.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

no problem for Vlad to go into Cunning but the problem is it raises the CDR cap as well. It doesn't solve Vlad's problems.

Not to mention, the point of having 5% CDR masteries is that it was a multiple of 5, so you could combine it with Ionians and achieve 20% CDR. Combining it with WotA and scaling CDR glyphs (or Spirit Visage) would grant you 40% CDR.

Brendy Bear1 votes

ADCs seem to cap CDR rather easily compared to champions like Vladimir. It sucks, but hopefully its something Riot looks at.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Brendy Bear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jO4P6zBT,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-12-08T02:41:30.616+0000)

ADCs seem to cap CDR rather easily compared to champions like Vladimir. It sucks, but hopefully its something Riot looks at.

If Vladimir at least was an AD champion... Because AD manaless champions still get amazing options to achieve 40% CDR item 3071 item 3812 item 3142 item 3078 not counting Ionian boots and tank items.

Vladimir can't get 40% CDR because most AP items with CDR come with mana regeneration, except item 3115 and item 3100 - The former which comes with useless attack speed, the latter which you don't have time to proc on a fight due to Vlad's spammy nature (and bad auto-attack animation).

People were asking for Vlad to be nerfed... he has been effectively nerfed with those changes.

Sneakyy XD1 votes

You can't do it without doing CDR Glyphs. It leaves you with no MR, which sucks, but that's now the life of APs.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

it's funny how ADCs can max CDR so easily while mages struggle to cap CDR although CDR is meant to be one of the main stats for them

YumaS2Astral1 votes

I forgot to say, I still play Vlad of course, but now because it is hard to achieve CDR, I am using more burst focused builds... Instead of Ionians for example, I am using item 3020 - and favoring items like item 3001 and item 3285 instead of Rylai. The idea is to burst down the opponent as fast as possible instead of going into sustained damage because without CDR it is hard to actually go into extended trades with anyone.

Erockandroll2 votes

{quoted}

I forgot to say, I still play Vlad of course, but now because it is hard to achieve CDR, I am using more burst focused builds... Instead of Ionians for example, I am using item 3020 - and favoring items like item 3001 and item 3285 - The idea is to burst down the opponent as fast as possible instead of going into sustained damage because without CDR it is hard to actually go into extended trades with anyone.

Maybe it was Just me, But I never felt a good benefit from building a high CDR build anymore. (at least not on a heavy AP centric build.) Even when you combined Spirit Visage and WotA, that never seems to be enough sustain. (And I'm not sure Riot wants him to be an AP Juggernaut.)

But thanks to his passive, there's plenty of synergy with a high AP build.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe it was Just me, But I never felt a good benefit from building a high CDR build anymore. (at least not on a heavy AP centric build.) Even when you combined Spirit Visage and WotA, that never seems to be enough sustain. (And I'm not sure Riot wants him to be an AP Juggernaut.)

But thanks to his passive, there's plenty of synergy with a high AP build.

High CDR allowed Vlad to kite his opponents better when combined with Rylai. It also allowed Vlad to better get into extended trades with an enemy since he could have his spells (especially his Q) avaliable more often.

Without CDR, burst focused builds are better, because you can't afford to go into extended trades with an enemy anymore. So it is better to just try to kill them as fast as possible so that they can't actually trade with you for a long time.

This is viable for mid lane Vlad, but on top lane Vlad, I liked to use the sustained damage build more, because as explained, I could kite them better, trade with them better, and out-DPS them. Burst Vlad can't out DPS many champions even with his healing, because without enough CDR, he can't heal as often.

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

High CDR allowed Vlad to kite his opponents better when combined with Rylai. It also allowed Vlad to better get into extended trades with an enemy since he could have his spells (especially his Q) avaliable more often.

Without CDR, burst focused builds are better, because you can't afford to go into extended trades with an enemy anymore. So it is better to just try to kill them as fast as possible so that they can't actually trade with you for a long time.

This is viable for mid lane Vlad, but on top lane Vlad, I liked to use the sustained damage build more, because as explained, I could kite them better, trade with them better, and out-DPS them. Burst Vlad can't out DPS many champions even with his healing, because without enough CDR, he can't heal as often.

well, like I said, I don't really like the DPS build, cause you still have to survive the trade. Part of the reason why I wished Vlad's passive worked a little better both ways. Then you could build him like a Juggernaut. Though if you wanted a more Juggernaut esc build, you could throw on locket or Banner. (do with their were a few more health CDR items though.)

I guess the other question is, do you need Rylail's to kite, if the AP build with Luden's gives you 10% MS? That MS combined with his pool should give you plenty of room to reposition.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

well, like I said, I don't really like the DPS build, cause you still have to survive the trade. Part of the reason why I wished Vlad's passive worked a little better both ways. Then you could build him like a Juggernaut. Though if you wanted a more Juggernaut esc build, you could throw on locket or Banner. (do with their were a few more health CDR items though.)

I guess the other question is, do you need Rylail's to kite, if the AP build with Luden's gives you 10% MS? That MS combined with his pool should give you plenty of room to reposition.

Slowing the enemy is better than having more MS yourself when against enemies that have movement speed boosts, for example, Udyr

I also would like if Vlad gained more AP from building HP, because then tankier builds would be viable.

Although before the Thornmail changes, a build that I used and was viable: item 3152 item 3158 item 3151 item 3001 item 3065 item 3075 It was a very good tank focused build that allowed Vlad to still have decent damage while being difficult to kill on his own. Between his natural sustain, WotA, and Spirit Visage, Vlad would heal any damage done to him, while still having enough resistances to be able to resist being focused. The other AP items mentioned have magic penetration and reduction on them, which works well on Vlad due to his high base damage. The only drawback of this build was to not be able to hit enemies as hard as with a full AP build. This build is no longer viable due to Thornmail changes which force you to stack armor to be able to make it worth; you can no longer use Thormail as your single armor item.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

go adc vlad. because for some reason marksmen have the best caster itemization item 3508

Vesarixx1 votes

I've been going for 10% in runes, 5% flat+5% scaling blues, then item 3158 item 3152 item 3100, not ideal but probably the best way to get the 40% until some updates happen with AP items.

Zerictm1 votes

Might give item 3092 a try.

I hear it is quite op right now. Mid laners are picking it up as a 1.5/2nd item. Makes decent gold back and the slow is just as strong asitem 3116 but lasts for 4 seconds.

item 3092 item 3158 item 3152 item 3065 gives 40%CDR and is cheap costing only 8100 gold, minus whatever you make from Frostqueen. This also leaves Runes and Masteries open to whatever choice you want.

This is PURELY theorycraft so take or leave as you will.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Us supports just can't have nice things...

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

Us supports just can't have nice things...

Junglers can't have nice things either Ezreal

Zerictm1 votes

Sad thing is I decided to try that build in a intermediate bot game. For funzies; and see how much gold the item can generate. Holy crap the gold this thing can generate. I was "support" Vlad first item frost queen rush. Kept the gold gen ability on cooldown as much as possible and not taking CS. Made somewhere between 1200 and 1800 gold (forgot to check the amount at end was about 700g at 13~mins) in an 18 minute game.

Now it is hard to gleem anything truely useful from this. But I'd be willing to bet in a 30min game with item 3092 as your 1.5/2nd item you could easily make 1200 gold with this item. And let's not forget this active. 40% slow for 4 seconds is huge. Makes for easy ganks and willing to bet will be able to burn flashes regularly if any allies are near to add threat.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

I actually had an idea to solve this problem.

I am now going to use 3 scaling CDR quints instead of movement speed quints. With it and 3 CDR per level glyphs, I can get 20% CDR at level 18. This allows me to achieve 40% CDR late game with just WotA and Ionians as my CDR items.

The downside is that I will not be able to use movement speed quints, which will be a problem because Vladimir has a very low base movement speed. This can be a issue during the early game, but maybe using the item 1331 enchantment and item 3116 can compensate for that somewhat. The problem will be chasing people now, early game. Without movement speed quintessences, this will be difficult. Dodging skillshots will also be difficult without movement speed quints.

It is sad because I got so used to play Vlad with movement speed quints, and it will now be very hard for me to get used to playing him without them.

AL0001 votes

try this silly items

item 3152 item 3065 item 3060 item 3056
40% cdr 140 ap 50 armor 105 mr 1k hp 150%+150% regen free ms nearby lanes /disable turret for short time/ push lane so hard...

so you can pick armor/ any boot...

add item 3157 for extra 100 ap. 45 armor and golden status...

Nanuk Pihoqahiak1 votes

I use scaling CDR. He's not a beast until lategame, so why not get something that scales with him into it?

I also find that the new Cunning tree is wonderful. As I recall, it gives you a flat five percent in addition to raising you to 45 percent. This puts his primary damage at nearly two second cooldowns each. Plus Thunderlord's is ridiculous.

Xosra1 votes

I don't see how buying morello's is an issue. Sure you don't get mana as Vlad, but you get Cd,ap, and grievous wounds so it is still worth the price as it is a cheaper cost to some other ap items. Just like buying Frozen heart on manaless tanks is still work it for the CD and passive.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

I don't see how buying morello's is an issue. Sure you don't get mana as Vlad, but you get Cd,ap, and grievous wounds so it is still worth the price as it is a cheaper cost to some other ap items. Just like buying Frozen heart on manaless tanks is still work it for the CD and passive.

There is another problem with Morello. Its passive is not very useful unless there are enemies with sustain like Mundo. For Vlad, this item is only useful for CDR and AP.

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