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@RIOT Mid-Year Mage Update - Karma

Vanjie··3 votes·674 views

I wanted to create my own thread about your choices and why Karma should be added to the list . . . and why others shouldn't. I feel like if I comment on that thread it is going to be overshadowed by all Brand and Zyra posts . . . which means it will not be looked at. Vel'Koz and Brand don't really need to be on that list. I mean they have a means to get away from damage . . . more than say Cass and Zyra do.

There are probably more experienced players that main Karma and can add their own feedback compared to mine. Feel free to chime in if you have an idea or your own assumption. Also PLEASE voice your love for wanting Karma to be added on that list in http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/jQmE1EjE-mid-year-mage-update

Karma is listed as a mage and support as secondary. She is only offered support items in her recommended build and I feel that Riot only intends players to play her as that, which is not a good thing. I have heard from so many experienced players that have told me Karma used to be fun to play back in the day. What I find extremely annoying about Karma is that she only has one move that does damage and it can only be used when she has max cooldown reduction. If you want to do any damage you have to max cooldown reduction on Karma so you can spam Q and R with Q. With max cooldown reduction it makes her passive practically useless.

My reccomendations:

  1. Remove her passive and replace it with her ULT that functions like Syndra's or VIktor's. When she fully maxs out a ability she can use the added effect.
  2. Remove her ULT and put it as her passive. Give Karma an ult that does damage and has a secondary effect that benefits from that.
  3. Seriously remove the ability to place a shield on a minion.

Current Karma:

  1. She is not fun to play and offers no variety in terms of damage.
  2. Useless passive that really doesn't do anything after maxing out cooldown reduction.

13 Comments

SilverSquid2 votes

Every rework Riot did so far to Karma increased her playability and butchered her complexity. Arguably why people played her. I just can't get over the removal of the RW and RE damage. Karma was all about her Mantra, and now its decisionmaking is so incredibly bland, it hurts. Indepth reasoning here.

I did comment on the thread, as you wished. I hope it helps. But just for the record: You can disable her targetting minions with the shield in the ingame options. It was great when RE still did damage and sniping enemies with minions was fun and satisfying. Now it's only useful for pushing towers or annoying my lane partners.

Vanjie1 votes

;/ I know. I have only been playing her for a few months but did see her old kit on youtube. She looked a lot more fun before.

SilverSquid1 votes

She surely was more unique with her double mantra, lvl6 abilities, tether mechanic and bait nature (at low hp her damage, shielding AND healing increased.... that was already based on missing%hp). Her baiting heal was more responsive too (no cast time, no target required, had a flat value, could be cast twice within 6s).

However, she had issues. Her winrate was historically low (37%) for multiple patches, even though she was played even less than today (e.g. the ratio of die-hards was higher). Which was a problem, because her W and RQ required her team to know what the abilities do... but nobody did. Her kit completely lacked counterplay and if you didn't delve deeply into the mantra-mechanic, it felt boring and low impact. Even if you did well.Her Q did a lot of damage and her E was the beefiest shield on a really low cooldown.... but once again, this was just stats, so you wouldn't "feel" it. Good shielding and AoE heals will never feel as impactful as a single game changing hook.

The rework turned it upside down. If Karma used to be good, but felt weak, she now finally felt good, butwas weak. All her abilities looked good on paper, but failed to deliver ingame. Vesivian made some good points about that already. But I'd like to add, that the 5.10 did exactly the same, yet again; newbie Karma's wouldn't notice the RW damage and the utility of RE (for waveclear, for example). They didn't care it was removed, but rejoyced that Karma got the strongest single target shield in the game(which she already had) and the longest root in the game (at level 16-18). Put bluntly; Riot catered to the needs of Karma players, who had no idea how good the abilities really were, but wanted them to feel good.

Karma turned from an awkwardly underplayed identity lacking mage to a slightly more popular identity lacking noobtrap support. Yes, her overall playability, looks and counterplay are way better, but.... at what cost?

IxtaliKing2 votes

The Riot Karma blackout continues I see...

Quepha1 votes

Karma isn't on the rework because she's a support-mage. Her team role is too far different from the other immobile mages in that she is meant to focus on how she assists her team in a fight while the other mages focus on how they can deal damage and cc the enemy.

Vanjie2 votes

Karma is listed as a mage and then support as secondary. If Riot is going to pull that card then they should remove Zyra from the list because she is sort of bottlenecked into the support role as well. I mean Lux is played more in mid lane. Karma is weak, has a useless passive after max cooldown reduction, and is boring to play. Brand doesn't need to be on this list. Vel doesn't need to be on this list. Instead of being stubborn and not listening to the community, don't update mage champions as part of whatever group they put them in . . . update the champions that need it. We re not going to see any updates to Karma for another 2 to 3 years. Riot is the slowest working group of Developers I have ever seen. It takes the far to long to update and balance the right champions . . . when they spend the entire year updating Zed, Vayne, and ChoGath. I mean even Morde would've been a better choice than Vel and Brand . . . yet . . . here we are with this list and Riot "ONLY UPDATING CHAMPIONS IN THIS SPECIFIC GROUP BECAUSE WE CAN". Zyra is not a mage. Zyra is a mage support like Karma.

I mean Riot realizes that they screwed up with certain reworks . . . and say they are going to take a look at them at a later date. Well their later date is 3 to 5 years later.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Karma is listed as a mage and then support as secondary. If Riot is going to pull that card then they should remove Zyra from the list because she is sort of bottlenecked into the support role as well.

Zyra can't shield her allies and give them a speed boost, nor can she use her ult for a mini-shurelia's. It's pretty obvious why Karma is thought of as a support mage while Zyra is considered a vanilla mage.

SilverSquid2 votes

I mean, I can see your point, but Zyra has way better CC (easier to apply, multi target snare AND a teamwide knockup). They were both designed as mages for midlane, and are currently played as semi-ap-carries in botlane, because of their base damage and slight utility.

They obviously have the same role description (Mage/Support) and are predominantly played in botlane. So, no matter if you judge it by Riot intention or the actual meta, they fall into the same category.

IxtaliKing1 votes

And the funny thing is, riot has actually taken away a lot of the base damage that allowed her to be a threat in bot lane too lol.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

I mean, I can see your point, but Zyra has way better CC (easier to apply, multi target snare AND a teamwide knockup). They were both designed as mages for midlane, and are currently played as semi-ap-carries in botlane, because of their base damage and slight utility.

They obviously have the same role description (Mage/Support) and are predominantly played in botlane. So, no matter if you judge it by Riot intention or the actual meta, they fall into the same category.

They fall into the same POSITIONS (support/mid laner) They do not fall into the same CLASS (mage vs. support mage) They are evaluating immobile mages as a CLASS by going over what all these champions do in the game and how they match up against other classes of champions.

Karma looks for where her team members are to try and get them to where they need to go, she wants to cc an enemy so that her ally can get in range. She can deal some damage herself, too, but she cares just as much about how she's contributing to her allies.

Zyra focuses on the enemy. She can take a target from 100-0 with her combo and wants to land CC so she can accomplish that. Her allies can help her if they want but that's their decision.

SilverSquid2 votes

They do not fall into the same CLASS (mage vs. support mage)

Yes they do. They are both primarily "Mages" and secondary "Supports".

Karma looks for where her team members are to try and get them to where they need to go, she wants to cc an enemy so that her ally can get in range.

This is exactly why they reworked her in the first place. To NOT make her dependant on her allies. They very obviously failed, by your own admission. Can you now see why we want her to be adressed? Besides; Karma is one of the worst supports to lock down a target, so your team can catch up.

Zyra's problem is that her plants don't fulfill her fantasy as they should, which her kit depends on. Karma's problem is that her mantra doesn't fulfill her fantasy as it should, which her kit depends on.

SilverSquid2 votes

So, Meddler wrote this:

Artillery mages (Xerath, Ziggs etc with really long range) and supportive mages (Ori, Karma etc) are groups we might tackle later, though it wouldn't surprise me if there was more value in tackling a different group instead (assassins or some types of tank instead).

Which translates to "We've included Karma in a group of champions that are fine, so we will probably never tackle her" I mean, if they ever do supports, they will probably skip Karma, and if they ever do poke mages, they will skip her. And there is no reason to then adress Lux, Ori, Morg and Karma, because Lux, Ori and Morg are fine, with distinct roles (poke,teamfight,utility) >_<. And if you want to include Zilean, he just received a ton of love from Riot, so there is no need either.

I really wish that instead of adressing Vel'koz (which the community asks NOT to change) they'd adress Karma (which the community keeps asking to adress). Win-win?

REDREX71 votes

I don't know what people are talking about. Karma is a great champion and really strong in the right hands. She brings lots of damage. I'm constantly the one with highest amount of damage dealers in my ranked games. Late game it is really easy to get multiple mantra qs off in a teamfight. I can generally get up to 3 to 4 mantra ulted abilities in extended teamfights. The only thing they need to give Karma is an offensive component to her shield. Which I suggest is a .2 ap scaling on a shielded targets next auto attack. Gives Karma a lot more harass and poke in lane mid, top, or support. With this buff she will be much better over all. As of right now she has only two reliable sources of damage which feels bad man. I suggest riot should nerf the ap scaling off of W from .9 to .7 to compensate for the slight buff.

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