@Riot Developers - Karma is Solidified as Nothing

Vanjie··94 votes·5,018 views

> She confronted a Noxian commander on the deck of his own war frigate, and unleashed her divine fury. But instead of a single, measured attack, she obliterated the entire vessel and its crew in a heartbeat. > -------------------- > Killing would always be easy, but came at the cost of true enlightenment. She had already tarnished her own undying soul along with those of her followers, and she would try her utmost to do no further injury.

If Karma is supposed to have a headstrong and independent personality, where is it in the game? If Karma is supposed to be this all powerful being, where is it in her kit or game? You want to know where it is? In the work ethic that you took away from her the past five years. You took away Karma's graceful stance and alluring personality and give it to new Irelia. You took away Karma's shield bomb and give it to Ivern. You took away Karma's fans for no reason at all for a watered down thematic that isn't even present in the game. You continue to take everything away from this champion that made this champion unique and amazing, and put it on other things in the game. Now we are left with a champion that doesn't even have a running and shield casting animation.

Meddler and Reav3s are very stubborn and cannot admit the fact that the work they have been doing on Karma has done nothing to improve her. She sits at a horrible win and play rate and the two of them think she is an amazing champion. The Developers refuse to actually address the problems in her theme, kit and art but have no problem doing that for Ahri and other popular champions.

To improve Karma:

Stop solidifying her as this champion that does nothing. It just seems to me that everything she used to be able to do is on someone else in the game. Now we are left with a champion that does nothing. Almost everything in her kit already exists in the game and isn't unique. Her only damage option is blocked by minions and the second half of the damage is unreliable. The health scaling from Mantra W doesn't fit a mage or support at all. The Mantra E is basically a group shield with an item active attached to it.

  • Karma needs a new passive that rewards her for autoattacking or gives her a reason to damage people.
  • Karma's Mantra Q needs to be ground targeting and not blocked by minions. If you want to keep the second tic explosion, have it to where enemies are damaged and allies are healed.
  • Karma's Mantra E needs to have shield bomb put back or it needs to stand out among other parts of the game. It is too bland and unoriginal to be on a champion kit if the idea already exists in the game.
  • She needs to have some sort of thematic tired to her visual in game. Since this was botched and not worked on at all in the past 5 years, I feel like some simple things to her visuals is just deserved.

99 Comments

IxtaliKing30 votes

Riot's direction for Karma has been weak ever since her designer left. I genuinely believe that she's one of those champs who Riot just aren't inspired to work on. As someone who loves Karma and sees so much potential for her, it's sad to see that Riot doesn't - or at least doesn't appear to. They took her fans, which they acknowledge was a mistake (but they'll still give them to a new champ). They promised twin dragons to replace the fans - those are sitting in the game files unfinished collecting dust, never to be spoken about again.

They had this lit concept art which oozed character and depth (especially when you consider her quotes):

https://imgur.com/a/ROc5i

Ended up giving us this, which looks okay... but is bland:

https://imgur.com/a/og5qm

It always seems like Karma draws the short straw. Now we have that new lore, and now her in-game quotes don't make sense. I don't even have the words to describe how tired and disappointed I am in Karma's handling.

Don't even get me started on her kit - I think I've complained about those bullshit 5.10 changes pretty much every week since they happened.

Just throw the whole champ away lol :(

SephAgro10 votes

That concept art is so fucking good. I would main her instantly if that was her art

IxtaliKing7 votes

Ikr, such a shame they didn't go with it.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

It's likely due to readability in game/lack of tech. Because at end of the day, concept art, is conceptual. It's not meant to be the entire product, simply the vision.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Possibly. The problem is, the final art looks barely (if at all) influenced by the concept. They didn't need to use the concept exactly as is, but they could have given us something in the same vein. Something that evoked the same feeling, the concept is a lot more compelling as 'Karma'.

Risen292 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2ezJ4OML,comment-id=0004000100000000,timestamp=2018-04-03T18:31:20.714+0000)

It's likely due to readability in game/lack of tech. Because at end of the day, concept art, is conceptual. It's not meant to be the entire product, simply the vision.

I'm not even talking about her in-game modeling. I'm talking about her concept art. There's no excuse for having lame concept art in-game when the original far surpassed it in quality.

Risen293 votes

{quoted}

Riot's direction for Karma has been weak ever since her designer left. I genuinely believe that she's one of those champs who Riot just aren't inspired to work on. As someone who loves Karma and sees so much potential for her, it's sad to see that Riot doesn't - or at least doesn't appear to. They took her fans, which they acknowledge was a mistake (but they'll still give them to a new champ). They promised twin dragons to replace the fans - those are sitting in the game files unfinished collecting dust, never to be spoken about again.

They had this lit concept art which oozed character and depth (especially when you consider her quotes):

https://imgur.com/a/ROc5i

Ended up giving us this, which looks okay... but is bland:

https://imgur.com/a/og5qm

It always seems like Karma draws the short straw. Now we have that new lore, and now her in-game quotes don't make sense. I don't even have the words to describe how tired and disappointed I am in Karma's handling.

Don't even get me started on her kit - I think I've complained about those bullshit 5.10 changes pretty much every week since they happened.

Just throw the whole champ away lol :(

That's exceptional artwork on the top. I see what you mean. They took something with real character and depth and turned it into soft bland shiny garbage.

It reminds me of what they just did with nightblade Irelia. They took something with depth, character, nuance, and replaced it with bland shiny garbage.

There's more to art than just getting the lighting and form right. It has to have character, soul, and communicate something real to the viewer looking at it, striking an emotional chord.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Exactly, that concept art is yet another missed opportunity for Karma.

Risen292 votes

{quoted}

Exactly, that concept art is yet another missed opportunity for Karma.

That original concept art actually makes me want to play as Karma for once.

Vanjie2 votes

Well that wasn't even what we got when they realunched her two years ago. She had very wide hips and the outfit was 10x worse. What we have is a half worked on VU that doesn't even have a running or shield casting animation.

SHIBANYUE26 votes

I honestly hate it. I feel like they've just given her nothing. They've just gave parts of her lore to Irelia and now Karma is a stand alone with voice lines that don't match her new lore.

KEEP THE OLD ONE D:

Vanjie9 votes

{quoted}

I honestly hate it. I feel like they've just given her nothing. They've just gave parts of her lore to Irelia and now Karma is a stand alone with voice lines that don't match her new lore.

KEEP THE OLD ONE D:

Yeah. This the type of work ethic they have with specific champions. The Developers really don't care. I do like that Karma is an actual entity as opposed to the person. I don't mind a knock off of the Avatar. What I have a problem with is the direction they are taking her with her kit, art, and now Karma's lore. She does nothing but sit around.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

I would absolutely LOVE a Karma revert. Old Karma was extremely skill expressive.

Dunal3 votes

{quoted}

I would absolutely LOVE a Karma revert. Old Karma was extremely skill expressive.

Eh... Old Karma was only really "skill expressive" because she was very underpowered (~35% winrate) forcing the player to have a huge amount of base game knowledge to do well on, and her actual kit had very low interactivity/counterplay (aside from the most undertuned part of her kit; the old W). Shield Bomb is what you should have been using both your Mantra charges on 95% of the time (lack of real choice) because the heal on RQ was deceptively weak and RW was a huge waste until W was maxed out or something (old Mantra scaled with the rank of the base spell, making the heal on Q even worse until past mid game). She had to spam shield bomb to remotely function as a champion (including for waveclear and survival, let alone damage) which also so happened to have no real counterplay at the same time (so if Karma ever got ahead or fed, she's be both bursty and tanky in a similar vein as Mordekaiser -- without the weakness to kiting. Her old passive also didn't help with this). She needed a complete rework if she were to ever have a healthy winrate.

Was the rework handled as it should have been? Probably not. But it was needed nonetheless. A revert would be a bad idea. Honestly, as much as people want the shield bomb to be a hugely prominent part of her kit again, there are... limitations to how good it can actually be. She was only kept in-check because it was the only good part about her kit back then.

However, if they added some kind of counterplay to RE and buffed the rest of her kit, then maybe it could have worked. Problem is that the easiest solution would be something like Sion or Ivern's shield and the thing is, Sion existed before Karma. The instantaneous damage is what made it different in the first place. Lack of interactivity was part of her identity, which can easily concern Riot. It's just that nobody remembers her kit being a problem because she was left intentionally weak until reworked -- keeping in mind that in-house testing probably revealed to Riot there was no way her kit could be made viable/strong.

For the lore change itself. I agree, it doesn't seem to be a very good one. She went from being strong and decisive to... unsure and weak-willed?

ZapMyHeart18 votes

What exactly is the purpose of Karma's new lore? If she kills someone, she loses her voices. If she doesn't, she gains them back (schizo, maybe?).

Like....why the hell is she in League, where she's fighting and killing others....

She should just hermit on out into a cave and let the real Karma come back.

Vanjie12 votes

{quoted}

What exactly is the purpose of Karma's new lore? If she kills someone, she loses her voices. If she doesn't, she gains them back (schizo, maybe?).

Like....why the hell is she in League, where she's fighting and killing others....

She should just hermit on out into a cave and let the real Karma come back.

So now we have a lore that makes absolutely no sense along with art and a kit that make no sense. Great job Riot.

Ariel the Cruel6 votes

It's preparation for her next relaunch.

Passive: Spiritual Scolding Karma starts the game with 300 bonus AP. Every time she uses an ability, this is reduced by 1. Every time she damages an enemy, this is reduced by 5. Every time she kills a non-champion, or assists killing Baron, Harold, Dragon, or Vilemaw, this is reduced by 10. Every time she gets a kill or assist on an enemy champion, this is reduced by 30. Karma regains 20 bonus AP every time she revives.

Masala Chai12 votes

What an absolute shame. Her voicelines make no sense, her abilities amount to nothing, and now she's anti- Irelia. Absolutely devastated.

Ultîma12 votes

I have over 97k mastery points on Karma and this is so annoying.

Karma was always supposed to embody balance and duality. The new lore completely took that away from her and turned her into a pacifist who loses her connection to the ancient soul when she commits an act of murder. For a nation so in-tune with nature you would imagine that the cycle of life and death would be an accepted part of their culture, and that Karma would embody the virtues that are required of her to make sure Ionia's way of life is preserved for further generations, just like the spirit was.

I'm honestly annoyed at how Karma is characterized in her story seemingly only to act as an opposite to Irelia rather than being her own character. If Irelia is the war-mongering Ionian who wants to strike back at Noxus and make them pay in blood for their crimes, Karma should be the one who understood the necessity of war to drive out the invaders and who wishes to focus on rebuilding her country after their hardship. Instead we got a woman who was so against the idea of killing anyone, even in the face of annihilation, that the source of her power receded when she finally made that choice.

Irelia's tale is that of a girl who found the power to fight back against those who would harm her. Karma's story is just the opposite. Her philosophy feels as nonsensical as the Jedi in the prequel trilogy. It's flat, lazy and contrived. And the spiritual leader of Ionia - a being that is possibly tens of thousands of years old - should know better. Her old lore was better. Straight up.

IxtaliKing5 votes

I couldn't have put it better, it's lazy.

The only way I can see to salvage this lore would be to make her arc about her evolving into the mindset she has in-game/old lore.

Żügżwäng1 votes

Ya these new writers are botching up too many lores.

Vanjie2 votes

I can understand shaking things up and being creative, but not at the expense of changing well liked characters already. Karma is an example of a champion that keeps having things taken away from her and given to other champions. Shield bomb? gone. Regal and elegant demeanor? On Irelia. Fans? Will go on a new champion. The lore team knows what they are doing just as much as the art and balance/update team do. They do not care.

Teridax6810 votes

I find the new lore for Karma tremendously disappointing, and I hope it changes when Karma inevitably gets a rework as well. The core problem with the new lore, imo, is that it characterizes Karma as this character who's capable of immense destruction, but who chooses to be absolutely passive. By contrast, Karma is best known in-game for being one of the most aggressive supports around, and perhaps the most balanced hybrid out there between an enchanter and a battle mage. Not only does the characterization not fit at all, it's also far too similar to Soraka's, whose core story also had her sacrifice her ascension towards a higher state of being just because she harmed someone. At least that kind of story is okay for an enchanter like Soraka, as she's a very defensive and heal-focused champion, but it isn't for Karma, as it should make sense for her to go out and seek harm to others, as well as protect her allies.

I also largely agree with the changelist at the bottom of the OP. Bringing back Karma's fans could be a good way of giving her back a unique visual marker, and her shield bomb is also iconic enough as to deserve a return. It's pretty strange that we now have a shield bomb on Ivern, but not on Karma, and the fact that such a mechanic has been proven to be made healthy should have been one more reason to do some work on Karma, and restore some of her old hallmarks.

Penta Ace4 votes

I agree, the new lore made her out to be some strange version of avatar the last airbender mixed with some soraka lore. It seems they are trying to move her more to being a conflict avoider, as opposed to her old "peace by any means neccessary" character. She is going from balance to pacifism and I'm not sure that i like it.

HP Crookshanks7 votes

Karma needs a real passive like Lissandra .

Hupsis2 votes

Her passive is one of the strongest parts of her kit.

HP Crookshanks11 votes

{quoted}

Her passive is one of the strongest parts of her kit.

Her current passive should be a part of her ult.

Rico Nasty6 votes

As a Karma main I'm so sad, she's the only thing keeping me in this game. She needs work ASAP! They need to replace her shitty tether with some reliable cc that is thematically fitting. Also bring back her shieldbomb. Give her a new or improved passive. She'll be good as new.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

They need to replace her shitty tether with some reliable cc that is thematically fitting.

"But the original Karma had a tether. And a %health heal. All we did was add root. It's totally the same!" [/sarcasm]

ƒrostγ5 votes

As a Lissandra player I understand your frustration, I feel the same way :/

Kairoptra3 votes

sigh Like so many posts, this one had such potential for good conversation, but the tone will inevitably turn it into a circlejerk where opposing arguments are acknowledged only by downvotes... OP, you had a great message, but the attitude you expressed pretty much ruined it. As I said, you make a very valid point, but this isn’t how you should be presenting it. If you want to give feedback, then go ahead, you should. However, straight-up insults are not feedback. They do nothing but encourage the negativity here. When you insult Riot, that’s not you being rightfully angered as a consumer; that’s you being just plain hateful.

IxtaliKing7 votes

To be fair, Riot just doesn't respond to any gameplay related Karma threads - regardless of tone or content. They haven't in over 3 years. They don't respond to her lore threads either.

Kairoptra2 votes

Who says Riot’s the only one we have to communicate with? I’m sure there are plenty of players with different opinions about Karma’s state that would like representation. However, threads like this make that impossible.

IxtaliKing4 votes

Nobody is preventing players with opposing views from voicing their opinions. Players have gone back and forth with each other about Karma for years. Riot on the hand is always absent from these discussions, which results in them making changes to Karma which further upsets her community.

Kairoptra2 votes

Have you seen the direction the Boards have taken over the past two years (when I first started coming here)? There is scarcely ever a post that actually tries to have a conversation that gets to the front page, and the circlejerks that do in their place bury them under a mountain of downvotes. This isn’t a lore discussion problem, this is a Boards problem.

Also, stop mentioning Riot, this isn’t about them.

IxtaliKing5 votes

No.

You are making a point about the boards.

I am making a point about Riot, so it is about them.

Kairoptra1 votes

So your logic is that you can derail the conversation in any way you like? If you have a problem with Riot, I'm fine with that. However, if you want to counter my argument, you actually need to be on the same topic.

IxtaliKing4 votes

First of all, how have I derailed the conversation?

You said:

{quoted}

... When you insult Riot, that’s not you being rightfully angered as a consumer; that’s you being just plain hateful.

I said:

{quoted}

To be fair, Riot just doesn't respond to any gameplay related Karma threads - regardless of tone or content.

And we went on from there. What's the issue?

Kairoptra1 votes

Oh, I see what happened. You see, I only said that to explain what I meant by the OP’s approach. I wasn't trying to defend Riot, I was just trying to say that in insulting them, you encourage an overall negative attitude that extends beyond one’s opinion of Riot. Said attitude makes it so that anyone opposing the argument is just downvoted with minimal responses.

IxtaliKing2 votes

The last part of what you said made it seem as though you were implying that's why Riot doesn't respond. In terms of negativity towards Riot, this post is tame. I've seen Rioters respond to actual salt posts, this post is just a little passionate. I'm sure Meddler and Reav3 are unbothered by being called 'stubborn', which is the only thing I think the OP should have left out tbh.

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

To be fair, what is the benefit anymore? Karma is one of the most heated topics on the boards. Has been since the replacement relaunch. To make matters worse, the fan base is so fractured between "new" and "old" that in-fighting often occurs almost immediately.

No matter what they say or do, in regards to Karma, they'll get a ton of backlash. It's simply not prudent to publicly entertain the topic.

IxtaliKing3 votes

It would be good to know where they stand on certain issues from time to time. They talk about other champs all the time, even if they aren't working on them. The fact that they don't make their presence felt within the Karma community makes things worse, because we end up with people just making assumptions and speculations, then dividing themselves based on those assumptions and speculations.

They get more backlash when they go off and do clownery in a vacuum without feedback. That's what they need to stop doing.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

I agree Karma has been mishandled and the fans left to rot. That's not what I'm getting at.

Involving the community has to incur some benefit or there's no point. The Karma fan base has been left to fester and splinter for so long that any good will they could get from community involvement is likely to be accompanied by equally strong backlash from the fan base's many splinters. So there's no net gain.

From a community perspective, feedback would be great. But any feedback they give is just going to blow up on them. So what's the point?

IxtaliKing3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2ezJ4OML,comment-id=00070001000100000000,timestamp=2018-04-03T00:17:20.996+0000)

The Karma fan base has been left to fester and splinter for so long that any good will they could get from community involvement is likely to be accompanied by equally strong backlash from the fan base's many splinters. So there's no net gain.

That's the thing, I don't believe the divide is too deep to be repaired. If Riot were to explain/discuss their intentions with the Karma community, people can begin to understand why some things are the way they are - like it or not. For example; if Riot were to have said to us "we removed shield bomb because it was unhealthy" back when they did, you wouldn't see nearly as much demand for it to be returned. It would be generally accepted among the community simply because Riot said so.

The closest Champion example would be Azir. His community was divided between the 'long range hyper carries' and the 'short range battlemages', Riot explained why it had to be one or the other and the community understood. Of course, some people were unhappy with the choice made - but it was explained and understood. The Karma community isn't as diametrically opposed as that, there are many ways to appease both old and new Karma mains simultaneously. But a Rioter would have to work with us to discover that.

ZapMyHeart2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2ezJ4OML,comment-id=00070001000100000000,timestamp=2018-04-03T00:17:20.996+0000)

I agree Karma has been mishandled and the fans left to rot. That's not what I'm getting at.

Involving the community has to incur some benefit or there's no point. The Karma fan base has been left to fester and splinter for so long that any good will they could get from community involvement is likely to be accompanied by equally strong backlash from the fan base's many splinters. So there's no net gain.

From a community perspective, feedback would be great. But any feedback they give is just going to blow up on them. So what's the point?

Well, they reap what they sow. They had ample time to repair the mishandling, yet they allowed it to progress to the point where anything they say will be used against them.

If they were really doing it for the right reasons, they will simply barge through the flamestorms that will happen and provide feedback regularly to help regain the Karma player community's trust. It's only then where there is actual repairing.

Not any easy task. But again, they brought it upon themselves.

It's highly doubtful they will do this, considering it takes months to even get some small crumb from a Red.

Ionian Vulpix3 votes

Why should Karma's Mantra Q be ground target? That thing hits like a truck, especially early game.

As for the rest of her kit, she needs a new passive and W. I play her every so often and my god those parts of her kit feel useless.

IxtaliKing5 votes

It does a few things for her:

  • Improves target selection as a mage for solo lane.
  • Improves access to wave clear.
  • Increases the versatility of RQ (can be used as utility to zone, cut off choke points etc..).
  • Improves consistency within her class (Battlemage/Enchanter), current RQ is most effect at max range; which is an artillery quality.
  • Allows for back-loading of damage from the intial impact, to the delayed explosion.
Ionian Vulpix2 votes
  1. She's a support. Riot has tended to hate when supports go to other lanes. Lulu everywhere got gutted. Zyra and Morgana are almost never played mid any more, and Lux had her shield made nearly useless because she was used so frequently as a support instead of a mid. The big issue with supports being viable in other lanes is that their kits usually have massive utility as well, so they're typically restricted by not having access to the gold for the best items.

  2. See 1

  3. Fair enough, but she can still do that with proper spacing, and not sure if that's the best use of her ult.

  4. Max range RQ is much easier to dodge since the projectile speed is slow and she has the chant when ulting. But she is encouraged to get close with her W and E, making it so she can land a close range RQ. If anything, making it ground targeted turns her into more of an artillery mage since at that point, it'd be more like Lux's E.

  5. Maybe, but that'd probably feel like crap for the Karma player. "I used my very noticeable ult on my slow moving spell with most of the damage being delayed! Better hope they don't hear it and don't walk even slightly away from it!"

IxtaliKing6 votes

Cool, just to touch on a few things here:

  • Karma, unlike Lulu, is actually a mage primary and has been intended for solo-lanes since her rework. Even original Karma was most effective in solo-lanes, and she was made at a time when champs weren't designed with lanes in mind.

  • Zyra and Morgana are also mage primaries who were shifted bot due to meta shifts, not because they belong there.

  • Lux actually had her shield nerfed initially because it was making her too safe in mid, before it was eventually buffed again.

About the ground targeted RQ:

  1. Yes, she can with proper spacing - but its needlessly awkward. Karma also doesn't have a regular ult; it's CD much lower, it's available from level 1 and her basic abilities are weaker to compensate for it. Karma has to use RQ to waveclear anyway, why not make it as smooth as it is for other mages?

  2. Artillery spells by nature are either easier to hit or more effective at max range. Being ground targeted would actually make the spell easier to avoid at max range, and more reliable at close range - as it should be for a battlemage.

  3. It would allow for more creative uses of RQ, and encourage securing W before using RQ more. It's an option though, may not be necessary to back-load any of it's damage.

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