Riot Developers "In Hindsight We Should've Listened to Karma Mains"

Vanjie··138 votes·24,599 views

You should have listened when you removed her fans, you should have listened when you removed her dress, you should have listened when you removed her thematic, you should have listened when you removed her shield bomb, and you should have listened when the community told you not to change her lore and make her into nothing but a passive monk. You were told all of this and you know better from previous work done on her, but you continued to do what you want and allow Developers who don't care about the champion or mains that actually care about her . . . to make drastic changes. Meanwhile, everything Karma mains loved about Karma is now on Ivern, Irelia, and future work on champions because Karma cannot have a single thing in her kit, theme, lore, and art that is original to Karma and is complete. This is all because no one on the Development team wants to listen to the players that actually care about the champion . . . but think so highly about the new Karma players who ditched her when her Mantra E was nerfed.

This is five years in the making and now the only thing keeping Karma relevant in the game is her balance. She has been sitting at the same play and winrate for years now and it was only changed when her Mantra E was buffed for the wrong reasons. The real fans and mains of Karma do not like her and have not liked her for the past 5 years. Every single Developer is aware of this but Ahri is getting 3 patch cycles worth of work now and Lux is going on 5 months. BE DONE WITH WORK ON POPULAR CHAMPIONS AND STOP SAYING YOU FEEL SORRY ABOUT NOT WORKING ON SPECIFIC CHAMPIONS.

What are you doing with Karma? The lore team just basically did what every other Developer has done with Karma: not communicate about the work they are doing with her and apologize that it didn't meet the mark. You know the Karma mains loved her fans, dress, shield bomb, thematic, and a lore that didn't depict her as a passive monk that sits in one spot and does NOTHING. It's like you know what needs to be done on her and what the fans want done on Karma, but you keep trying to justify past work done on Karma because you are too stubborn to make good changes on her. Do what needs to be done on Karma and get it over with.


Bring back her fans, dress, shield bomb, work on her animations, work on SOME theme, and fix that depressing lore you know is an issue. DO SOMETHING ON THIS CHAMPION OTHER THAN SAYING YOU ARE SORRY, THERE WAS A SECOND OPTION, OR YOU THERE IS NOTHING CAN DO FOR HER. Her winrate and playrate say otherwise. The Karma mains who have been playing Karma since release say otherwise.

104 Comments

dunder kill64 votes

Probably because listening to mains is normally pretty terribad for gameplay. Could you imagine what a monstrocity Shaco would be if Riot gave the mains what they ask for? I mean they gave them just a little bit and hes back to broken OP tier.

Idgaf about lore. You guys can have that idc

Sp33d Zer025 votes

Imagine if we gave Jax what Hashinshin wanted....

Shudders

Keti11 votes

I don't think he wants things for jax so much as he wants every other champion to be a punching bag.

Aurian10 votes

Imagine if we gave Jax a real weapon

pZoCeDonna1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AO26O9Zp,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-04-10T22:45:36.973+0000)

Imagine if we gave Jax what Hashinshin wanted....

Shudders

I know, right?

Imagine if we listened to Hashinshin, the game might actually be balanced...

I "shudder* at that thought, too. If the game were balanced, what would you guys bitch about then? Probably the lore I'm guessing.

TehNACHO4 votes

Alright so I haven't seen much from Hashinshin himself but I've read a lot from his followers, those people literally can't tell the difference between Jax and a tank. I don't trust those sort of people balancing this game.

HaIlMonitor3 votes

That is two completely different things. With Irelia they called in Irelia Carries U and had him test and play her and give feedback based on how she felt compaired to the, probably over 1000, challenger games on her.

What are some of the key differences between her mains and others????

  • The major thing is it really doesnt seem like any of them dislike her, and enjoying her playstyle before she feels even better now because she is smooth and enjoyable.

Other Champions usually will get reworked, be super op (see rengar, galio, and WW for more recent ones), then once they get nerfed all the sudden all of the "Mains quit" and on some champs like Rengar they end up being reverted because the only people that played him when he wasn't busted was Rengar mains, and all they wanted back was their smooth feeling knife cat, even if he is weaker.

Although I will admit some mains such as Ahri, Shaco, and a few others complain when their champ is at a 60%+ winrate, but that might just the vocal minority.

VoraciousX2 votes

{quoted}

Probably because listening to mains is normally pretty terribad for gameplay. Could you imagine what a monstrocity Shaco would be if Riot gave the mains what they ask for? I mean they gave them just a little bit and hes back to broken OP tier.

Idgaf about lore. You guys can have that idc

The only thing Shaco needs is actual damage on his abilities. There's a reason for this other than it just being because "Shaco mains want it". He needs this so that he isn't forced to be just some broken champion every time on-hit items are broken. The reason Shaco is broken when on-hit items are is because that's LITERALLY all he has outside of building AP. If they wanted to make Shaco an AP assassin, that'd be fine, if he could actually kill people with it, but they nerf his AP ratios over and over when they were almost ALL he had(He only had an AD ratio on E before they reverted and gave damage back on his Q, but was STILL building AD. Why? Because he can proc 2 on-hits at once and any time there's a broken on-hit item(item 3147) he will abuse it the best because of this). The only thing they could do to compensate for nerfing or changing his ultimate(if they ever do) is give him better ratios on E or W(until now anyways). His W only has an AP ratio(and basically needs someone to outplay themselves for it to hit them) , his E has hybrid ratios but the ratios already aren't bad on it. If they nerfed his ultimate(possibly removing on-hits from the clone or something), he would become gutter trash even when on-hit items were really strong. He quite literally is only strong when items are strong, and when they're not he is probably one of the worst champions, if not the worst champion in League because he doesn't really have any abilities outside of his E(which is only good late game with any build), unless he builds AP, and he doesn't get enough out of AP to warrant building it either.

ChuShoe5 votes

everyone says shaco does less damage than a minion. I can't tell you how many times I've flipped my table because it feels like he does all the damage in the most infuriating way.

IxtaliKing25 votes

A compromise between old and new Karma is not only possible, it's necessary.

While her rework completely dropped the ball on her fans, dress and duality thematic, it did make some strides in her gameplay.

The change from the 2 Mantra system was logical in regards to making her Mantras more impactful, whilst giving her a passive to encourage and reward enemy interaction. The problem is that passive should have been a part of Mantra itself, she needs a new innate - preferably something defensive to balance the aggressive nature of her kit (duality?).

Movement speed on E was a very good call, for me Karma's E is one of the most satisfying abilities in the game (even with the nerfs) simply because of the MS.

Moving Karma's heal to her Mantra'd tether was also a very logical move because it gave her more emphasis on decision making. The missed opportunity here was allying tethering, Karma should have been allowed to heal an ally with RW.

Reintroducing old elements like the shield bomb, ally healing, tether clothesline etc... would go a long way toward repairing the divide in the Karma community.

Ultîma21 votes

Karma has basically been shafted every time Riot worked on her. She was one of the first VGUs, and essentially deleted the old character to create a new one that retained nothing of the old kit, its look or feel. Those criticisms were then ignored when Riot balanced her to become a shieldbot support. Now her lore was butchered, once again removing likable aspects of the old stories and replaced with a very unrelatable character.

It's crazy to me how careful and considerate they were with Irelia, yet botched Karma so hard year-over-year. Riot needs to give Karma some much-needed love and start fixing their mistakes rather than apologizing for them.

InTheory18 votes

I'm afraid to earn downvotes from previous karma mains, but her new design made her my second main and I really enjoy playing her. I think many former "champion XY" mains forget that there are new mains for every rework that do also love the "new" champion. I think for karma there can be a healthy compromisse but I also feel like old karma mains do not accept that.

Automated Riven22 votes

The reason karma mains (I am not one btw but I have played a ton of karma pre and post rework) are do pissed is because riot has religiously removed everything that they have been explicitly asked not to remove. Every time. Riot reworked her the first time and fans begged to keep the fans and shield bomb. So riot kept the shield bomb and made a shitty (original karma) skin that kinda kept the fans. And then they removed the shield bomb like 3 months later cause 'reasons' even though everyone hated that they did it. And follow the path 5 years later and they are still making changes that karma players hate and specifically ask them not to do.

SociopathFriend5 votes

Just pointing out that the things most-loved by a champion are sometimes the worst parts- it's a fine line to walk.

Look at Shaco and imagine if his most offensive ability was removed and changed to something healthier- if it was literally ANYTHING but his E removed- the fans would complain he isn't "the same".

Automated Riven4 votes

I question the need to rework certain champions in the first place, especially to the extent that they are reworked currently. Sure stat check champions which specifically are either broken or worthless are 1 thing. Bianary champions are another.

Take ww, he pressed r and either you died or you kited him and he died. Sure you can rework him (arguably a good rework btw) and give him more 'power' in exchange for some additional skill expression and unreliability. This is all fine. Taking old poppy for instance. They took a bruiser who hyper scaled similar to Jax whose entire gameplay pattern was toxic. (We agree here) but instead of maintaining her roots (bruiser who charges through the battlefield to kill someone - arguably a diver in today's classification) and completely deleted her from the game. They left the wall stun. Sure it's iconic, but it's not poppy. Shit they even removed her aa reset so now it's damn near impossible to play her bruiser to any effectiveness. What pissed me off about riot in the first place was the absolute shitting on players and fan bases. It's not that they are greedy (they aren't) and it's not that they don't care about the game (they do). But they don't give a rats ass about players who have put literal weeks worth of time into specific champions.

Damn near every major vgu gets a good response from the community and a pissed off response from the old main playerbase. Even major mechanical changes are like this. (tahliyah w for reference. The players who spent 3 months playing her, like me, begged riot to leave her w alone and some of us still want it the old way.) Riot doesn't give two shits about mains in any aspect of the game at all. And they make it pretty clear. That's why people get pissed. And that's why there is major discontent from karma mains. Cause ironically (cause the name karma) they have gotten it way worse and way longer and way more often then any other dedicated fan base.

Lord Phazanor 4 votes

{quoted}

I'm afraid to earn downvotes from previous karma mains, but her new design made her my second main and I really enjoy playing her. I think many former "champion XY" mains forget that there are new mains for every rework that do also love the "new" champion. I think for karma there can be a healthy compromisse but I also feel like old karma mains do not accept that.

The problem isn't you enjoy new Karma, he problem is why did Riot need to shaft old Karma players to please new Karma players? Why not release a new champion?

Slythrin Umbreon15 votes

Year of Reverts, please.

OverpoweredSoap12 votes

Karma is currently so excruciatingly far from her old self, that Old Karma might as well be a new champion.

As someone who enjoyed the first karma and enjoys the current one, the major issue I have with this rework gameplay wise is that it didn't fix Karma's main issue:

She's too dependent on Mantra to be useful.

Her passive hammers this in, especially in the support role, because it gives her SO MUCH cooldown refund on her ult that its up too often and her base kit has to be weak.

I have problems with her current look and theme but they aren't bad they're just really different.

The whole Karma rework just felt like Riot was seeing how far they could get away with when reworking a champion instead of actually caring about who she was and what she did.

It may not be intended that way, but that's just the way it feels.

Ariel the Cruel4 votes

Karma died for the sake of better reworks down the line. At least her legacy is intact. (>_>)

MisterShameless10 votes

Could you give me the link to where this was said?

Vanjie3 votes

For what in particular?

Quiet Dude2 votes

The hindsight quote

Vanjie9 votes

There was a quote from a past Developer 5 years ago who was addressing her fans being removed. I can look it up after I get back from my date. It's on Surrender 21. I know where it is. They were talking about how they didn't think the community, who is still upset about specific things they removed from Karma, would be so upset about her losing her fans and dress. It seems to be the same reoccurring thing every single generation of Developers do: they don't listen and they just take and put on something else in the game.

Quiet Dude3 votes

I’m just upset she didn’t get that skill shot that took out a Noxus battle ship. She can be avatar aang all she wants, but they better give me that death laser

Vanjie23 votes

I will just say this, in the past 5 years if Developers have done anything on her . . . . no one would be upset. This is five years worth of excuses and contradictory work being done on her. If the Developers wanted to add this Enlightened One theme and twin dragons . . . with her mantle . . . they should have gone all out with it and really made it shine. None of her abilities have animations, she has no narrative, she has no taunts, she has no shield casting and running animations, her theme is not even noticeable. Add in the fact that her kit is all over the place in terms of direction and is bland . . . . we have an incomplete champion that has been this way for five years and work is being done on the same popular champions every year.

IxtaliKing5 votes

I think that was supposed to be RQ. They even took out the mention of twin dragons to make it more similar.

Tails90163 votes

I’m just upset she didn’t get that skill shot that took out a Noxus battle ship.

They're talking about the 800 AP Karma's using RQ

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

That can't be it. A Morgana snared Anivia can walk out of the secondary explosion. How would it ever hit a floating ship full of people? (>_>)

Automated Riven2 votes

This is the truth. You can take a nap in between the q hitting and dealing the secondary damage.

ChaddyFantome9 votes

I never got to play old karma, but it only took me 2 seconds to see she was far better and had a much more concrete identity than the generalist plate of tofu that we have now. #BringBackTheFans

Arakadia6 votes

There are real mains and fans of karma that like her right now. No need to start gate keeping.

Teridax686 votes

{quoted}

Miss Vanjie... Miss Vanjie... Miss... Vanjie...

...

Okay, now that that's out of my system, I agree wholeheartedly. There was a time when I was on the other side of this fence, because I was fixated on the fact that Old Karma had terrible gameplay and needed some kind of rework (which I still think is true). However, what I utterly failed to realize was that Karma did not need or deserve the rework she got, and that the subsequent changes that happened to her have only further cannibalized what little uniqueness was left of her. Karma's relaunch had already taken a flavorful and unique champion, and turned her into something much more bland and generic, but on top of that the subsequent loss of her iconic shield bomb, at a time when so many people had already told Riot it was the one part of the kit she should keep, made things even worse. The fact that this shield bomb, which was nerfed then removed on Karma for being unhealthy, for supposedly not corresponding to her gameplay, etc., was given to Ivern, another support, adds insult to injury, and on top of that her most recent bout of really ill-fitting lore seems to suggest that there isn't really anyone at Riot in particular who really cares all that much for Karma, at least not one who's influencing her right now.

It's nice for Riot to say that they should've listened to Karma mains, but at the end of the day talk is cheap, and Karma's been in serious need of an update for years now. To this day, many players still point this out, and express their passion for a champion that had ceased to be what they liked for such a long time already, yet that passion has not been met with anything of major substance by Riot as of yet. Karma needs an overhaul to her visuals, narrative and kit that pulls directly from her community's feedback, so that we can finally all put this matter to rest. Riot has released some amazing VGUs over the years, in part because they learned from Karma that player feedback and champion identity do matter, so I think it's absolutely the time for the devs to take what they've learned, and apply that to what is possibly the most failed rework in League's history.

I illustrate1 votes

Then go play ivern. xd

Teridax683 votes

I know this is more of a joke comment, but at the end of the day, it feels really bad to have a champion's iconic ability get removed from their kit, only to be given to another champion, and so for no reason. Ivern's shield bomb isn't even iconic to him, it just so happens to exist in his kit. Ivern doesn't play in any manner like Karma, nor should he, and the fact that Karma is supposed to have this very distinct playstyle that involves a mix of offensive abilities and utility makes it all the more frustrating that the perfect fusion of those two got taken away from her. At the end of the day, even if Karma's mains really did all just switch to Ivern, that would not prevent the fact that Karma still exists in League of Legends, despite having had no solid direction and increasingly fewer unique traits for years on end. She needs an update, and among many other things, that update needs to give her back her shield bomb.

Vanjie2 votes

Yeah it does. Even if they put shield bomb back in her kit, how original and iconic is it going to be on Karma? It is on Ivern now.

KoKoboto4 votes

##RevertQuinn2018

Koechophe4 votes

I greatly admire that Riot has almost entirely reverted the Leblanc changes, because they acknowledged that they didn't work. I'm really hoping that at some level, they'll be willing to add in some of the elements that we miss from old Karma, to give her a bit more flavor.

Here are some thoughts I have about that:

  1. I loved shield bombs as much as the next guy, but the reason they removed it from being low-accessability was that it was low-counterplay (you could bomb enemies to death with impunity because the potential range was huge and the cast was instant). I would love to see them come back, and wouldn't mind if there was a delay to the bomb effect so enemies have time to get out of the way before it pops.
  2. The biggest thing I miss from old Karma's kit was her % of missing health heal, and the unique hitbox on the Q. I don't really have any inclination towards her current W and the effects either, and I wouldn't mind if it were reworked or changed to make it more in line with her kit. Low-range "stand next to thee enemy for a few seconds" purely doesn't work on Karma with her kit unless you build her as a tank, which requires just too many stats to optimize.
  3. Like other champs, I think it would be good if they decided who they want Karma to be and balance her around that. She has no unique identity: she's a poke control utility shield burst damage over time low ranged artiliery top mid support jungler (yes, jungle Karma was extremely popular for a while and is still pretty viable). There's no specific situation where she's an exceptional pick, or a terrible one, and there's nothing about her kit that's particularly unique.

Those are my thoughts. I just want to say, I appreciate the work the design team does. I think they've only gotten better as time has gone on.

IxtaliKing2 votes
  1. I loved shield bombs as much as the next guy, but the reason they removed it from being low-accessability was that it was low-counterplay 

Do you have a quote for this?

rtbf2256182413 votes

Too bad Janna didn't get this kind of backlash.

Guess she's just not as popular, character-wise.

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

You mean with the kit rework? There was backlash. It just got drowned out by all the people who hate Janna. (>_>) Before the Karma "relaunch," Riot went out of their way to ensure nobody knew about her.

ZapMyHeart6 votes

{quoted}

Too bad Janna didn't get this kind of backlash.

Guess she's just not as popular, character-wise.

Well, it's because Janna's old lore was kind of open interpretation. The only big thing was that she was changed from human to spirit, but other than that, she retained the elements to protect and what not, as well as her wind magic.

Karma, who was a dignified, political leader, which sought to bring peace back to Ionia through the balance of peace and war dichotomies brought by the Noxian invasion. She was strong, independent, knew what she wanted, and was willing to fight if necessary, as she understood what war was.

Somehow, this lore changed her to Darha, but not really Darha, because "Karma" is multiple lifetimes encased in one body. They stole Darha's body to use as a collective host to transcend into the "Karma" of many lives a la Dalai Lama. However, she is now martyred because she accidentally blew up one ship instead of one person and now she's making up for her crime by going into extreme pacifism to re-earn her voices back.

I mean, seriously. Who comes up with this angsty crap? The lore team play favorites. They kept Irelia's old lore for the most part. And is now seeking Nautilus players for their opinion for an upcoming lore change. Yet Karma players continue to get screwed over, yet again, with this Korra-knock off.

TNHA Baritone3 votes

1.4million mastery points on Karma. They should have listened.

Thee Pie Man2 votes

Mastery points weren't even a thing back then to be fair, but yeah they should have listened.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Lol he's just pointing out that he's a very experienced Karma main; meaning he still enjoys her, but agrees with op.

Rico Nasty2 votes

I'm so frustrated. It's been this ongoing battle ever since I started playing League. Karma is the reason I got into this game. I literally feel a connection to her. I love her. But Riot clearly doesn't. Watching your favorite champion slowly deteriorate feels like shit.

xelaker2 votes

the problem with this is by now she has people who never played the old karma and are fans of what she is right now. Which fans do you disappoint? lol

Samael112 votes

I can say, I understand the change to tethering. It confused a lot of players, thinking that tethering an enemy would damage them on cast, and team-mates not understanding how to position to use tether effectively.

I can say that, while I miss the Shield Bomb with it's incredibly ridiculous AP ratios, I can understand the change to it, and even that I prefer the new shield mechanic more. A group shield and 55% move speed buff on a 10s cd? that is some serious supporting.

I can say I like how she plays now overall.

I can say that the loss of her fans hurt her "feel" and theme.

I can say that her Q does nothing to lend her personality.

I can say that her redesign was disheartening, especially her VGU. I always use her traditional skin. It's not as good as the original, but it is close enough.

I can say that my brother is still bitter about the changes to Karma, he hated the rework so much, as a former main.

I can say, overall, Karma now definitely needs some attention and personality.

Keti1 votes

Her mains? old karma was so unpopular that virtually everyone forgot she existed. she was the original yorick back when yorick was everywhere.

Toru Itai3 votes

She had more mains than old(Real) Sion

Leetri2 votes

Old Karma is literally THE only champion I've never ever seen in a game, and I've played since the start of S2. She was easily one of the most unpopular champions in the game back then.

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