Can we bring back the old last whisper and remove the abomination LDR?

Dasdi96·Apr 23, 2018·17 votes·8,585 views

40 AD, 35% total arpen for 2600 gold. Ever since its rework in preseason 6, nobody but adcs buy it. The old last whisper was purchased by all ad champions who wanted to penetrate armour, yet it was still effective against base armour. Now it is bases on bonus armour and gives more damage against enemies with higher hp than you, meaning fighters can’t use it as well. On the ap side, void staff has been fine because it is total mr pen. As for grievous wounds, we can just create another item that builds out of executioners.

30 Comments

ZJD123Apr 24, 20188 votes

I made a post about old LW as well but relating to AD assassins

Old LW and Old ghostblade were what made AD assassins healthier to play against AND play as during season 2-5. They did less damage to squishies that have no armor but did slightly more damage to tanks who built armor and did more damage late game. The attack speed on old ghostblade was alot healthier and stronger than duskblade proc. Back then the only source of "lethality" was just one item (ghostblade). Not sure why they scrapped this smooth power curve for lethality stacking cancer.

SpecterVonBarenApr 24, 20184 votes

Uh.... what? How is it giving an assassin good damage to everyone a healthier design when they aren't supposed to kill tanks?

ZJD123Apr 24, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Uh.... what? How is it giving an assassin good damage to everyone a healthier design when they aren't supposed to kill tanks?

You arent the brightest are you? please do explain how 70 lethality to a 80 armor squishy does less damage than 20 lethality +35% total armor pen (what they had in season 2-5).

dunder killApr 24, 20182 votes

You aren't the brightest are you? Lethality didn't even exist in season 2-5 xD

P.S. do some research on old runes and masteries

AsterfixApr 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I made a post about old LW as well but relating to AD assassins

Old LW and Old ghostblade were what made AD assassins healthier to play against AND play as during season 2-5. They did less damage to squishies that have no armor but did slightly more damage to tanks who built armor and did more damage late game. The attack speed on old ghostblade was alot healthier and stronger than duskblade proc. Back then the only source of "lethality" was just one item (ghostblade). Not sure why they scrapped this smooth power curve for lethality stacking cancer.

Well back in the old days damage was less and gold came in slower and games lasted longer and games weren't decided in the first 15 minutes, anybody could comeback at the final stretch. I remember watching a game from a few years ago where one team was pushed to nexus tower, they got a good teamfight in and was able to push out, got ahead and pushed to the enemy's nexus tower, then the enemy got a comeback and pushed out, pushed to the nexus and the team got another comeback, pushed to the nexus and won. It was like an 80 minute match.

Also we could honor the enemy team.

EedatApr 24, 20188 votes

Do you understand how old and new LW even work? New LW is legitimately trash tier against squishy targets. Old LW worked on even base armor (new LW does NOT) which added a bunch of damage against squishies

They did less damage to squishies that have no armor but did slightly more damage to tanks who built armor and did more damage late game

You have no idea what you're talking about. Old LW does WAAAAAYYYYYYYY more damage to squishies than the new ones

ZJD123Apr 24, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Do you understand how old and new LW even work? New LW is legitimately trash tier against squishy targets. Old LW worked on even base armor (new LW does NOT) which added a bunch of damage against squishies

You have no idea what you're talking about. Old LW does WAAAAAYYYYYYYY more damage to squishies than the new ones

Wow old lw does total armor pen , wow thanks for informing me about the obvious shit, pls also tell us what color the sky is and what 2+2 is. No shit old lw is better than current lw, you didnt read my post and you also probably arent that good at reading comprehension. I said to remove lethality items completely and replace them with old LW and old ghostblade. The max armor pen you could reach on a 80 armor target would be around 24+20 which is way less than the current lethality stacking where u can easily reach 70 lethality with sudden impact on top. You have no idea what you're talking about.

EedatApr 24, 20186 votes

Back then the only source of "lethality" was just one item (ghostblade). Not sure why they scrapped this smooth power curve for lethality stacking cancer.

Wrong there was The Brutalizer (probably the most oppressive stat stick in LoL history), Warrior Jungle item, and Black Cleaver.

Now let's take a look at other things you ignored. Lethality is gated by level. Old flat armor pen was not. There were also flat amounts of pen in runes AND masteries. A typical assassin would run flat armor pen reds. Let's do some math now shall we?

Flat armor pen reds: 12 flat (at level 1 mind you) Piercing Thoughts mastery: 7% total armor pen

Compared to Sudden Impact which gives 10 Lethality which is further gated by level and only situationally

Let's move on shall we? You know what? Let's give you the benefit of a doubt and compare numbers at level 18 so you get the absolute highest value out of Lethality k? We'll use your 80 armor example

OLD:

Black Cleaver 30% shred brings them to 56

LW + Piercing thoughts brings them to 33

Youmuu + BC + flat runes brings them to -10

The max armor pen you could reach on a 80 armor target would be around 24+20

You see what I mean when I say you have absolutely zero clue wtf you're talking about?

Let's look at new:

BC 24% shred brings them to 61

Duskblade + Youmuus + Sudden Impact brings them to 15

You see now? This is a 3 item to 3 item comparison. This value is literally ONLY at level 18.

Again, you have absolutely zero idea wtf you're talking about. Did you even play the game at this point? Obviously not if you thought Youmuus was the only source of flat pen

EDIT: also forgot the old precision mastery which gave you another 10 flat pen at level 18 kek

EedatApr 24, 20187 votes

Why in the world would we want to give ADCs massive buffs to damage against Squishies? This would just be a massive buffs to all AD champs. It's way too far along to just undo it. All these classes and champs have been rebalanced around not having the old LW over years. Bringing it back is going to be a massive shitstorm.

Dasdi96Apr 24, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Why in the world would we want to give ADCs massive buffs to damage against Squishies? This would just be a massive buffs to all AD champs. It's way too far along to just undo it. All these classes and champs have been rebalanced around not having the old LW over years. Bringing it back is going to be a massive shitstorm.

We can rebalance adc items around old last whisper. Actually, back when old last whisper existed, it felt like adcs did less damage to squishes.

MorganFreemanBotApr 24, 20183 votes

{quoted}

We can rebalance adc items around old last whisper. Actually, back when old last whisper existed, it felt like adcs did less damage to squishes.

Back when old last whisper existed ADC's received less ambient gold + less gold from their supports.

They actually merced squishies even faster, the caveat was that they didn't hit that power curve as rapidly because there was just less gold in the game back then.

While S8 and S7 before it have been miserably bursty, they're actually not as bursty (adc / ad assassin wise at least) as s3 was. People just hit the point where they burst faster, that's it.

ZT XperimentorApr 24, 20182 votes

I'd beg to differ, the passives on the new last whispers have given them too much invisible power contributing to the burst. The dominik's anti-health passive multiples on criticals just like lifesteal, and the mortal reminder's grievous wounds apply to all physical damage for 5 seconds.

MorganFreemanBotApr 24, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jMOI4Iee,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-24T03:17:16.193+0000)

I'd beg to differ, the passives on the new last whispers have given them too much invisible power contributing to the burst. The dominik's anti-health passive multiples on criticals just like lifesteal, and the mortal reminder's grievous wounds apply to all physical damage for 5 seconds.

How does damage amp vs targets with more health - which requires a 1,000 health difference to max out - assist with bursting squishies who have roughly the same health, generally within a few hundred of the adc?

How does mortal wounds - healing reduction - help with bursting squishies?

Additionally, current last whisper and its off-shoots currently has 35% pen when the previous one used to have 40%, and that's before you begin to factor in the old one having 40% -total- armor pen rather than bonus! How does less armor pen in ALL situations help you burst squishies?!

Please educate me. I'll wait.

DW DianaApr 24, 20182 votes

{quoted}

How does damage amp vs targets with more health - which requires a 1,000 health difference to max out - assist with bursting squishies who have roughly the same health, generally within a few hundred of the adc?

How does mortal wounds - healing reduction - help with bursting squishies?

Additionally, current last whisper and its off-shoots currently has 35% pen when the previous one used to have 40%, and that's before you begin to factor in the old one having 40% -total- armor pen rather than bonus! How does less armor pen in ALL situations help you burst squishies?!

Please educate me. I'll wait.

Mage items tend to build both hp and ap. This is to give them SOME chance against assassins and adc's. They've had enough nerfs, this would kill them all.

ZT XperimentorApr 24, 20181 votes

It doesn't require 1k health to get a bonus at all, you still get +1% per 100 health difference; nearly all marksmen items don't offer health, but every other class has a couple core items that grant health. As I said this bonus is amplified via critical hits without any indicator for the target, hence invisible power, unlike sona's 'auras'.

Heal used to be a common summoner spell until riot gutted it, the mastery rework also added several options for sustain, with a few combinations offering overlap for excessively deceptive durability.

The removal of runes knee-capped everyone's stats, flat armor and magic resist were most common; sure riot bumped most champions' defense but not remotely close to previous values (everyone got +2 base armor), the commonly picked combination of runes granted +7~12 bonus armor (depending on how many were scaling). Armor items in general have been nerfed from the repeated failed class updates, and the only tanks that've remained viable have one of three things; a spammable or incredible durability steroid (alistar & braum), enough base damage to function as an off-fighter (sion & gaiio), or such disruptive crowd control that they can't be ignored (nautilus & malphite).

Sass is not becoming of one wanting to genuinely learn, so can it until you form a proper argument.

SalronApr 24, 20188 votes

{quoted}

back when old last whisper existed, it felt like adcs did less damage to squishes.

And? Your "feelings" do not validate your point

Either do the math to prove your point or don't make the claim at all ######And if you actually did the math you'd know old last whisper does more damage to squishies than Lord domino's pizza or mortal reminder

EedatApr 24, 20181 votes

Do you understand that the new LW items are trash tier against squishies and only is effective if the enemies are stacking armor items right? Old LW straight up does WAY more damage to squishies. New LW is 35% bonus armor. It does literally zero pen unless they build armor. Old LW is 35% total armor which means it penetrates base armor of squishies. There is no world where old LW does less damage to squishies than the new ones

There have been other changes that have led up to ADCs doing more damage to squishies. LW changes were NOT one of them.

YumaS2AstralApr 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Do you understand that the new LW items are trash tier against squishies and only is effective if the enemies are stacking armor items right? Old LW straight up does WAY more damage to squishies. New LW is 35% bonus armor. It does literally zero pen unless they build armor. Old LW is 35% total armor which means it penetrates base armor of squishies. There is no world where old LW does less damage to squishies than the new ones

There have been other changes that have led up to ADCs doing more damage to squishies. LW changes were NOT one of them.

To be honest Mortal Reminder isn't completely garbage against squishies, if only due to the Grievous Wounds passive, which is necessary against squishies that rely on sustain.

SpecterVonBarenApr 24, 20186 votes

Because Riot didn't WANT everyone buying it? Give a reason why its bad, it not being bought by fighters isn't a reason to change it back. And if we want ADC's to stop being burst machines but still be tank killers then changing it back would be the worst thing we can do.

flibitydooApr 24, 20183 votes

The item right now is super binary in that you only buy it to counter a high armour stacking tank and not much else. And when you do, that tank blows up as fast as squishies do.

The older one also hurt tanks, but in gameplay practice felt more like a linear growth in damage rather than another big spike letting adcs rip everything apart with 600+ dmg crits. It was bought universally as almost a 3rd core item to playing ADC but never felt like "oh now the adc hits super super hard"

I think a big part has to do with last whisper giving 40 AD whereas lord doms gives 50. That armour pen difference didn't make bursting squishies as fast than having an extra longsword (a kills worth of AD speaking in terms of long swords) amplified further through damage amps and crit ratios.

SpecterVonBarenApr 24, 20184 votes

Except just buying it, "Because this gives me more damage to everyone" is even MORE binary because you just buy it automatically rather than thinking, "Should I get this to help with the tankier guys or buy something else for more damage in general?"

YumaS2AstralApr 24, 20184 votes

I disagree, fighters may not have old LW anymore, but on the flipside, they have the current item 3071 which is much better than its old version (more CDR, more HP, phage passive) for fighters. Also, most fighters nowadays have in-built armor penetration, true damage, magic damage - all things that allow them to bypass armor and more than compensate for not having the old LW.

If we got old LW back, this would be a massive buff to both ADCs and assassins, both which are the classes that people tend to complain about the most (especially there on boards).

It would be a buff to ADCs, allowing them to do significantly more damage to squishies. And, as you know, one of the main complaints about ADCs is how they do "burst per second" thanks to crit items multiplying their damage massively. If you add old LW to the equation, this would make them deal even more damage, so it would actually make the problem worse.

As for AD assassins, old LW would outclass every lethality item in terms of allowing them to deal more damage to squishies. It would probably be a rush item on every assassin, and you wouldn't even be able to counter that with Seekers Armguard/Ninja Tabi/GA like it is done nowadays. Lets take Kha'Zix for example. He is already one of the most complained about champions currrently, and is almost permabanned in Korea. Now imagine if he had old LW. I don't even want to know how terrible would be that.

Also, it would be a buff to many of the most hated champions in this game, namely: LeeSin Pantheon Riven Yasuo Ezreal and to a lesser extent Vayne

TS MediaApr 24, 20181 votes

Black cleaver is garbage to anyone that isn't a juggernaut.

Snowman ArcApr 24, 20182 votes

Well, juggernauts want this item because their kit revolves around quick combos and mainly AD damage, which is where Black Cleaver excels. Fighters, like Jax for example, like extended fights, so they need attack speed items, like Triforce.

I don't understand why your statement is relevant.

Snowman ArcApr 24, 20183 votes

Honestly, I like this design more. The old LW was pretty much a must buy on every AD carry champion, because the damage amp was so big at such a low cost and it worked against everyone. It wasn't a matter of choice, you HAD to buy this item, moreso than Void Staff, because the armour values are generally higher, since base armor scaling is higher and MR scaling. It left no room for diversity, and it essentially made it so that those champions only had essentially 5 slots of items. Bring this to this meta, where every ADC wants at least 3 items (IR, zeal item, and ER or another zeal items, depending on the champ), then boots and the last items are situational. Maybe the last item to get 100% crit, maybe GA, maybe lifesteal, but certainly not NECESSARILY a LW. Right now, LW is only a situational item, since it only works on bonus armor, which means that you can skip it if the enemy doesn't have a lot of built armor, or if the champions who build armor are not priority targets and you can move on to attack squishier champions. The situations where a LW item is good right now are specific ones, and LW upgrades are only helping to enhance their effects.

To your defense, maybe this revert will help with the superspiking ADCs, in terms of defensive items. Being "forced" to buy the old LW would make it so that you have one less item space to work with, thus not being able to buy Ninja Tabi, or hexdrinker, for example, and be forced to add more damage. Currently, most ADCs have so much damage from items, to the point that they can buy Ninja Tabi to become tanky without having to sacrifice a lot of damage. Old LW could help changing that.

Irelia BotApr 24, 20182 votes

Why not make flat applied before % and have season 2 armor and magic pen?

Snowman ArcApr 24, 20181 votes

Because then there is really no point in building flat pen, if you're gonna get reduced returns after LW.

RenaMay 4, 20181 votes

Lol your post was read. They said that they are bringing it back for 2800g a few days ago. Ty for writing this because i was hoping they do it a while ago.

OleandervineMay 4, 20181 votes

Eh, I highly doubt this guy's post was the catalyst for this, considering that they'd have had to have planned these item changes to hit the PBE long in advance of when this guy made this post.