Sightstone is the real reason no one wants to support

RedCyclone·Dec 7, 2016·31 votes·1,614 views

Who here likes to spend 800 gold as early as possible on a class what isn't allowed to CS and is frowned upon for taking kiills, just to buy a item that has been branded MANDATORY on your whole class that gives very little stats and whole purpose is to force you to go back when it's out of charges making you more underleveled/poor while the rest of your team plays the game not on 0.5 speed, not only that but it takes up a item slot so you are playing with 1 less slot then everyone else.

No one likes that right? When Sightstone was created it was a godsend, the era of the boots 1, Aegis, green ward supports were over and we all rejoiced, but now the game has shifted in a fashion where the first 15 minutes of the game are incredibly important that sets the tone for the rest of the match, having to spend 800g on a class that doesn't get much money in this time feels really power draining

It's time to have a look at other options, Statted Sightstones (CDR or AP from the getgo pls), cheaper verity, enchants that augment the Sightstone ect... make it feel like a good buy and not a chore of a item.

74 Comments

Colgate GatorDec 7, 201614 votes

No, people don't like to Support because everyone wants to be the anime's main character.

TequilaZombieDec 7, 20165 votes

I personally enjoy the support role in every other game, but in League I just can't find it fun. Being forced into crappy items with gimmicks actives instead of raw power while also being behind in gold/xp and starting out at a negative 800g because you need item 2045 feels really bad. Specially since with all those drawbacks you still won't be pulling out some amazing stuff as a payoff. If I personally feel the need to have big impact in controling teamfights I can just play control mages like Anivia Lissandra Taliyah or CC tanks like Nautilus Amumu Galio . Hell, I can even play someone like Gnar and be a Anti-Tank DPS Burst Tanky Initiator Assassin and do all the work myself. As it stands, I see no reason at all to play support over other classes.

AckelopeDec 8, 20162 votes

One of the more recent support items, item 3107 is what i think is a pretty well executed support item. it gives stats that supports use more effectively than most while also providing an active effect that's really good and often visually satisfying. Unfortunately, it's only one of many, though.

JoeMGDec 8, 20162 votes

I've been building this almost every time I supp now. Good stats and a fun active. Need more creative actives like this instead of generic shield actives.

LordGeovanniDec 9, 20161 votes

Ive been takeing item 3504 but only on taric because he is the only aoe healer . i dont find its stats or passive good enough on any one who cant heal multiple people or sheild multiple people so i only take it on Taric (the one good use of his acursed rework as riot informed people so well before he was even realeased how good his ult was it never had a time where it was good because everyone knew how good it was before it was even released and knew how to out play it) and Sona attack speed on adc and fighters at the same time being a fighter main i know how good attack speed is on them but how their options are horrible

LordGeovanniDec 9, 20161 votes

thats -1600 gold if you actually finish it to make any of your support items worthwhile

ZephyrDrakeDec 7, 20164 votes

sorry but sightstone isn't the reason at all. It's because they get the least amount of gold, are always behind in lvls, and get to buy the least impressive items. If you fall behind as a support chances are you are going to be just a walking bad of gold for the enemy team and there is nothing you would be able to do about it. Then Riot has started introducing stupid heal/shield+ % items that just benefit a small portion of the supports and just ONE ability in their entire kit, two if you are lucky. That's why people don't like playing support not because they have to build an item that gives them vision and they can build into something that suits the need of the champion they are playing

RedCycloneDec 7, 20166 votes

Sightstone only fuels that feeling of getting behind true, but having some other option of not spending that 800g on something that doesn't make you any stronger would really help close that gap

ZephyrDrakeDec 7, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Sightstone only fuels that feeling of getting behind true, but having some other option of not spending that 800g on something that doesn't make you any stronger would really help close that gap

sorry but what? it gives you HP, it gives you vision and it upgrades into 4 different things that you can take advantage of. There are A LOT more issues with support than just a single item that you don't even need to rush. You can just piece it together. I always at least get my tier 2 gold item before even looking at getting sightstone, unless i get that fed off early that i am able to outright buy sightstone. It's a very useful item specially since it prevents ganks... as long as you have map awareness that is. When people stop trying to get supports to become the next damage carry role then they will actually start enjoying the role. All people want is for supports to become this stupid damage dealing class that has utility attached to it and that's a huge reason why people don't like the role. They want to build nothing but pure damage on it

JyoeruDec 7, 20164 votes

Well, it's a 2k gold-sink with 3 vision units at a time. So basically, you get 30-50% less gold than everyone else, and you start off effectively with -2000 gold because of this item that provides level 2 stats. And because it's the only source of income, we're forced into buying at least its gold-generating item, which is only useful stat-wise for a few levels. Falls off fast.

The reason players end up playing damage-type supports is because it's virtually impossible to carry anything as a support support. You get called out, singled-out, generally can't 1v1 anything, easy to delete if no one else is around (which happens a lot because of ADC probs). Yeah, I prefer a damage-type support myself.

The way I see it, if you can get a kill lane going, push a turret, then you can roam a bit faster. But if you're playing a support support, and your ADC is gone, might as well just help the enemy team kill your turret and snowball.

A Basic IslandDec 7, 20161 votes

It's 800g.

JyoeruDec 7, 20162 votes

Yes, the 3 ward stone is 800g and one inventory slot. The mandatory gold generating item is 350/500 gold and also takes up one slot. To free up a slot, you need to upgrade the stone. You end up dropping 1850 to do that for mediocre stats and a 4th vision ward.

ZephyrDrakeDec 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Well, it's a 2k gold-sink with 3 vision units at a time. So basically, you get 30-50% less gold than everyone else, and you start off effectively with -2000 gold because of this item that provides level 2 stats. And because it's the only source of income, we're forced into buying at least its gold-generating item, which is only useful stat-wise for a few levels. Falls off fast.

The reason players end up playing damage-type supports is because it's virtually impossible to carry anything as a support support. You get called out, singled-out, generally can't 1v1 anything, easy to delete if no one else is around (which happens a lot because of ADC probs). Yeah, I prefer a damage-type support myself.

The way I see it, if you can get a kill lane going, push a turret, then you can roam a bit faster. But if you're playing a support support, and your ADC is gone, might as well just help the enemy team kill your turret and snowball.

2k gold sink... what? item 2045 costs 1600 gold and gives you 500 HP and makes your active items come off CD faster... or are you talking about the eye items? which give you some HP, regen of some sort, 2 of them give you CDR, the passive of whatever gold item you had and some minor stats depending on the gold item you had. They also come at the added bonus of you not having to upgrade your gold item since you already did so freeing an entire item slot for you. Sorry but what? i have carried many games with pure support builds and i am not even a high ranking player so i can only imagine what people at high elo can do when they actually are good at the role. You aren't supposed to be 1v1ing anyone as support and if you are getting deleted while building pure supportive style then you might as well not exist when building pure damage since you are also even squishier that way and even easier to delete when no one is around since no one is going to be afraid of a lone support champion unless they are fed beyond belief.

Once again, when people stop actually wanting support to become another damage carry which will never happen. People will actually start appreciating everything a support champion can actually do. You are not supposed to be dealing damage, you are supposed to be setting up your team for them to make plays and provide backup damage to help your carries/tanks not become a main damage dealer. Does it suck when you get a terrible team that never follows on your plays? well you being a damage support is not going to change that unless you are someone like Brand, Annie or Zyra and even then all it takes is you being out of position for just a little tiny bit and you will just blow up and then people will call you out regardless.

Prince WesuDec 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

sorry but sightstone isn't the reason at all. It's because they get the least amount of gold, are always behind in lvls, and get to buy the least impressive items. If you fall behind as a support chances are you are going to be just a walking bad of gold for the enemy team and there is nothing you would be able to do about it. Then Riot has started introducing stupid heal/shield+ % items that just benefit a small portion of the supports and just ONE ability in their entire kit, two if you are lucky. That's why people don't like playing support not because they have to build an item that gives them vision and they can build into something that suits the need of the champion they are playing

Redemption isnt an impressive item? Wat????

ZephyrDrakeDec 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pet Play,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jH53GbA0,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2016-12-07T22:01:46.112+0000)

Redemption isnt an impressive item? Wat????

never said it wasn't and the item is broken not "impressive", all i said was that the items with heal/shield+ % are stupid since they just benefit a small portion of a supports kit instead of helping the kit as a whole. Where are the items for supports that prefer CCing? slowing? where are the items that improve that? where are AP supportive items that give not that great amounts of AP but give me something else in return? why is a damn item with heal/shield+ % better for champions that don't even have heals or shields? where are the support items that actually help tank supports? one or two items being actually good does not matter since all that would happen is that only those items are going to be built regardless of circumstances while leaving the rest of the build feeling terrible as a result since every single other item suck, forcing you to go and delve into items from other classes which causes a hell of a lot more problems in the long term of things.

10TicklerDec 7, 20164 votes

Support main here:

The most frequent reason I find myself NOT wanting to support isn't because of the Sightstone. While it's not truly gold efficient anymore, thanks to the devaluation of Sight Wards, Vision in and of itself is HIGHLY valuable.

If anything were the one true reason, it'd end up having to be: Focus.

I'm not High ELO. My MMR's in the shitter, and I accept that I'm /bad/. Therefore, I preface my following statements with this caveat: I am Low ELO. My Opinion is that and nothing more. Anything that I say is subjective to my personal perspective, and therefore, can and likely will be flawed, when compared to Plat+ Support Mains.

Focus is the bane of the support. In and of itself the word can refer to many things. Focusing objectives, something I'm prepared to do, but I find my team less so, instead focusing on CS/Jungle Camps, so they can get their last 30 gold for an item. Turrets, Dragons, and Baron control are vastly more important to me.

Focus on vision control. Even when I buy sightstone, that's only 3 wards I can place at one time. The Tier-one oracles replacement is fairly weak and situational now, good for setting up ganks, and clearing objectives of vision. I can also have a control ward. That gives me 4 vision options to work with. Now, Farsight Alteration is free, and has no limit. Yet, when we hit Nine minutes, I barely ever see them. Instead, I'm expected to Ward Dragon, Herald, 5 river bushes, 2 tribushes, and anywhere deep in the enemy jungle I can get to. Season 3? I could totally manage that. Back then, however...most of a support's power budget and gold budget was DEVOTED to vision.

Focus on setting the lane behind.

Dear enemy team, I get that Bottom Turret's weaker in Defenses than the other two. I also get that it's an amazing objective, that gives you free reign over the dragon, while setting our AD Carry behind. It sets me behind too, and while I may take out one or two of you, devoting a Teleport, a roam, and a gank, all at once, to the sheer purpose of Eradicating me, the support with no kills and maybe 2 assists (if my laner's been lucky), isn't all that gold efficient. Either get the kill quick, or just threaten me until I have to back away. Don't chase me, don't flash mastery icons at me, that's rude. I get it, your 3/0 level 7 Lee Sin was able to QRQ me. It's very skillful of him, he popped the Karma. Very impressed.

LordGeovanniDec 9, 20161 votes

^^ all that and that tank items suck so support tanks which people in low elo like to push as the teams single tank when they are designed as secondary tanks are even worse they get less value and build items ad half the speed of a solo lane tank who build at a 1/4 the speed of an adc mage or assassin even with cheaper items because their items are weaker they cant clear well their spells are on longer cooldown with less damage by rank 5 they lack the range or mana pool to poke and cant out sustain enemy poke anymore. while lifesteal in keystone mastery for already safe laners

PennsDec 7, 20163 votes

On a class that 1) Doesnt need stats as much as others and 2) doesnt need gold from minions/kills as much as others.. why not?

Maximum MordeDec 7, 20163 votes

What makes you think they don't need stats just as much as other champions? Go duel a mid laner while 3-4 levels and 2 items behind and tell me herp derp I don't need stats on suprot

PennsDec 7, 20164 votes

Because they arent supposed to like.. duel a mid laner..? Generally they dont need as much stats because their base stats and utility are good enough.

Maximum MordeDec 7, 20167 votes

Good enough to be a punching bag of free gold. That's why people don't want to play that way. Pretty much all support champions hold their own in duels just fine if they are on an equal footing xp and gold-wise.

chipndip1Dec 8, 20162 votes

Except Riot's intentionally made some of its champs need to scale into later stages, rather than just be strong early.

Sona Soraka

LordGeovanniDec 9, 20161 votes

TahmKench Taric Braum Bard Leona

chipndip1Dec 9, 20161 votes

How does listing champs that DON'T need to scale into later stages counter the argument that Riot has made champs that DO?

LordGeovanniDec 9, 20161 votes

all of them are later game scaleing champions with Taric Tahm and Braums Hp scaleing Bards chimes and Taric armor scaleing and Braum and Leona 's armor and mr scaleing you need items to make all of them effective. though arguably braum has a good early passive if you can get your team to focus and use it

TaizukiDec 7, 20163 votes

Take smite and go trackers as support... lol. In all honestly I think they need to make warding the junglers job primarily. Basically take out trackers and add 3 ward charges to all jungle items. Problem solved. Your squishy support will no longer leave lane to ward resulting in the ADC dieing and wont be caught out trying to ward constantly. Makes perfect sense honestly.

Z StatisticDec 7, 20163 votes

No, it's because warding itself isn't really fun

ZelorxonDec 7, 20163 votes

You know what? Once i saw a meme with "how to disappoint your parents starter pack", and there was picture of anime and cosplay items. I thought: wow, if that's all it takes to disappoint a parent those must be really bitch ass whimpy parents...

Now i see your post, a highly valuable strategic item is all it takes from letting you enjoy the role of support? (which is by definition binded to SUPPORTING the team, something only the support can do and no one else). The actual reason must be somewhere else.

Fashion MageDec 7, 20163 votes

I'd say one of the biggest reasons support isn't played too often is due to the rate of new champion releases for the support category. Riot loves spamming fighters don't you know.

As for sightstone, I do feel like it can be kind of annoying buying it with such a small budget, although I feel that it'd be a lot nicer if you were more in control of which stats it offered.

Big LincolnDec 7, 20162 votes

no it isn't.

I don't want to support because of the champions

Sona x RubickDec 7, 20163 votes

when i said supports have no power in early game except like Bard who removes 50% of the adc hp with Q+passive+thunderlord, i got told that they have the best power in early game

Lul, i guess it's fun to play Janna and not being able to kill at 200 hp cait with warlord

Big LincolnDec 7, 20162 votes

janna must be real shit when she invalidates any melee that isn't Jayce with no effort on her part

poor Janna, she can only negate every all in by herself and give her ADC an extra items worth of AD

Sona x RubickDec 7, 20162 votes

Oh i didn't say janna is underpowered, just said that she's probably the most boring shit i ever saw

Big LincolnDec 7, 20162 votes

the majority of the support roster is boring imo

especially Sona

Sona x RubickDec 7, 20164 votes

Mid lane Sona is way to go if you want to have fun, Support Sona is just a bitch for her team, going on low cost utility items and not being able to buy lichbane unless she's somehow 10/0 at 15 min.

I would like the support roster to be reworked to have unique spells that don't exist in any other champs like dota2, Right now the supports all have CC/heal/shield, instead of debuffs, in dota 2 Someone has the ability to steal attack speed+movement speed from the enemy with his basic attacks (ending with a frozen mallet+having a lot of attack speed) and give half of the buff to his allies.

then it's only my opinion

Big LincolnDec 7, 20164 votes

league would be a better game if they just stole outright from dota

it's kind of sad tbh

Sona x RubickDec 7, 20162 votes

you don't need to steal things

just give debuffs to supports, there are so much different debuffs that can exist

LordGeovanniDec 9, 20161 votes

champions includeing supports had debuffs but it was removed for being 'hidden power' Taric used to remove enemy armor at the expense of breaking the move that gave him and his allies armor. Techincally any level 2 ganks for Tryndamere can be disasterous as just showing your self the first time will cause enemy to blow flash as he removes ad and slows the enemy and 14 seconds later if you come again you have a kill. the problem is supporting skills and debuffs are all on carry champions so they arent all the same champion but even when on carries their slows stuns knock ups and etc are never worse than utility based champs who cant cant have damage because the have utility but their utility are even worse than those on damage carries

chipndip1Dec 9, 20161 votes

Or maybe give us more fun itemization options like the REST OF THE GAME?

Maybe allow supports to fight better instead of being forced into being shield bots all the time?

Maybe let support mages build some ap?

Why am I only one that notices these huge issues!?

Hauling AsheDec 7, 20162 votes

Actually, part of the fun of support is lighting up the jungle like a Christmas tree.

Praise the sun!

o0O Madoka O0oDec 7, 20162 votes

As a support main, I don't feel sightstone is the root of the problems. Lack of recognition is.

I value sight stone as my first power spike. An early sightstone enables my early roaming with the jungler, switch to that sweeper, be more oppressive in lane without worrying about ganks. If I have that early sightstone and the enemy don't, they are going to have a bad time in lane. (But well, if your jungler isn't helping, it surely isn't as powerful).

The problem is when I play support, people in other lanes don't recognize my plays. Like standing in the way of a Lee Sin Q, landing a full burst combo as Lux, all other people see is a sick double kill from adc at bot. I can only count on adc to congratulate on my plays, which I get like 35% of the time when I make plays? It's definitely less consistent than the announcer.

When I play support lux, people don't realize I'm actual support Lux. I leave kills, control minion wave, help with cs under turret, peel to death, poke down enemy adc, and somehow the top laner still think I'm just another elementalist lux jerk. So I deliberately buy dark deal at the beginning of the game, refund it, and buy spellthief, while joking in chat, "I got dark seal, give me kills" to show I'm serious about supporting.

Teridax68Dec 8, 20162 votes

I very much agree with this, and I think the best solution might just be to remove Sightstone altogether: as mentioned in the OP, Sightstone was created at a time where supports were dedicating literally their entire gold income and inventory to wards, plus a Heart of Gold. We are now at a point where every player not only has access to a free vision item that takes up no main inventory space, but cannot purchase more than three Control Wards even if they tried. Removing Sightstone would not force supports to put in any more gold towards vision, since they would be limited to the same vision as everyone else, which would then also allow to spend much more time playing the game normally, instead of roaming alone to do their team's job of warding.

The one potential issue with Sightstone is that removing it might simply leave both teams with less vision than is needed. However, that would be a good reason to buff trinkets, so that everyone would be able to contribute more, and not just supports. As long as supports are forced to spend more gold, time and inventory slots than everyone else just for vision, they will never feel as fun as they could be.

DrugsForRobotsDec 8, 20162 votes

I made this post the other day and I was curious what you thought of the idea.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/tPeE0gbe-could-we-get-10-20-vision-power-passives-on-some-support-items

Kharn SkyshatterDec 8, 20161 votes

Couple (or was it 3) seasons ago jungles used to build sightstone with the support. But that was nerfed with the team ward limit.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 8, 20161 votes

its definitely one of the reasons

Asayake 5150glowDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Who here likes to spend 800 gold as early as possible on a class what isn't allowed to CS and is frowned upon for taking kiills, just to buy a item that has been branded MANDATORY on your whole class that gives very little stats and whole purpose is to force you to go back when it's out of charges making you more underleveled/poor while the rest of your team plays the game not on 0.5 speed, not only that but it takes up a item slot so you are playing with 1 less slot then everyone else.

...

raises hand...

LordGeovanniDec 9, 20161 votes

Riot doesnt want sight stone to have siginficant stats or other lanes might start useing it because then they might actually get their wish where everyone wards and we can get the old invisible pink wards back so even if they do ward you can deny it and not have to worry about feeding the enemy free gold with a pink (like azir and his towers which do more damage and give less gold both in the same patch)

Irelia BotDec 9, 20161 votes

I agree

Delet sight stone and make support have to spend all of their gold on wards for the whole game outside of boots and Gp5 items.

DoktorKaiserDec 9, 20161 votes

No, why cant everyone realize already that people dont want to support because everyone wants to carry themselves, people are selfish, egoistic and just want all the glory, they dont want to depend on someone else to make them win. Same as football, nobody wants to be the goalkeeper, everyone wants to score goals. Its in peoples nature to be like that. I mean I understand, I hate playing support too when you have to try to help a complete noob and you know its hopeless and you cant do anything yourself, it sucks. But I love supporting if team is friendly and at the same skill level as myself, I find it fun and enjoyable, but as I said, most people want to be the superstar of their team. The situation is similar with playing full tanks when they are not broken, nobody likes to play monster tank, but rather pick squishy top/jungle all the time.

Dominick DestineDec 9, 20161 votes

No it is not.

The real reason is that your influence on a match's outcome is lowest as support. You cannot carry compared to jungle/top/mid/adc... if you're stuck with a bad ADC especially, you are basically boned.