vayne needs to be held to the same standarts as melee carries

Critmaster Garen·Dec 11, 2018·57 votes·16,533 views

there needs to be an actual mechanic around silver bolts that can be outplayed. max % health true damage should never just be tacked onto auto attacks for free. especially not as much as 14% and on a ranged champion.

has her vitals that you can play around, and avoid the blunt of her damage by outpositioning her to deny her access to the true damage.

has it only against a single person on the enemy team and has no control over who has the mark.

if vayne is ever supposed to be viable without getting permabanned out of sheer frustration how she invalidates defenses, she needs a kit rework that gives her SOME sort of mechanic that justifies the max health true damage mechanic existing in her kit. i dont care what it is, but it should be as difficult to use as axes to allow her to access it and it should have the same level of counterplay.

i also hope that that buff on the pbe is some sort of bad joke.

174 Comments

KFCeytronDec 11, 201823 votes

The counterplay is to reposition and force her to either switch targets or disengage entirely.

EschetonDec 11, 201824 votes

She literally has increased movespeed and a short cooldown tumble to chase you down if you try.

KFCeytronDec 11, 20188 votes

{quoted}

She literally has increased movespeed and a short cooldown tumble to chase you down if you try.

Right, and then she Tumbles into the enemy team and dies, or chases you halfway through your jungle and dies. Or she can pick a different target and stop damaging you with Silver Bolts.

I mean, how do you outplay Tristana's steroid? Caitlyn's?

EschetonDec 11, 20185 votes

You build armor.

IntegratedShadowDec 11, 20182 votes

Well, armor helps, but hp is what you want against true damage Lol

AetherArisingDec 11, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Demon DARK Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-11T03:38:01.174+0000)

Well, armor helps, but hp is what you want against true damage Lol

he was replying to some snarky dude being all "huu vayne has counterplay, other adcs dont. how do u counter caitlyn and tristana's steroids" (neither of which are truedmg)

hope that clears things up.

ElohavenDec 11, 20182 votes

Let's not forget when Caitlyn was meta and got gutted and still is ass. She needs buffs but Caitlyn+Runaans+Rapid Fire was cancer. Tristana was cancer earlier this season as well and hopped around and was the safest ADC after Caitlyn's nerf with a shit ton of damage. But now you complain about Vayne because of "true damage."

Everyone was yelling in excitement about Conqueror though right? There's a lot of true damage in the game and a lot of champions who have it in their kits.

KFCeytronDec 11, 20187 votes

{quoted}

You build armor.

Building an item isn't outplaying.

EschetonDec 11, 20189 votes

That's a tactics vs strategy discussion.

But the armor helps facilitate the outplay. Some people like fast bursty solo plays. Tank players like slow calculated plays team-mates can react to. Armor allows that.

KFCeytronDec 11, 20183 votes

{quoted}

That's a tactics vs strategy discussion.

But the armor helps facilitate the outplay. Some people like fast bursty solo plays. Tank players like slow calculated plays team-mates can react to. Armor allows that.

Ironic that you're making this complaint about an ability that is guaranteed to do exactly 4-14% of the target's max health every three hits and can't be massively boosted to one-shot you like other abilities can.

EschetonDec 11, 20184 votes

14% is nothing to be scoffed at. Especially with things like Conquerer, IE, Bork and just base crit damage with tumble bonus damage and very likely Sudden Impact for extra armor pen.

Further, I fail to see what exactly is ironic about it.

KFCeytronDec 11, 20183 votes

{quoted}

14% is nothing to be scoffed at. Especially with things like Conquerer, IE, Bork and just base crit damage with tumble bonus damage and very likely Sudden Impact for extra armor pen.

Further, I fail to see what exactly is ironic about it.

Here:

{quoted}

That's a tactics vs strategy discussion.

But the armor helps facilitate the outplay. Some people like fast bursty solo plays. Tank players like slow calculated plays team-mates can react to. Armor allows that.

Silver Bolts cannot burst. It encourages a slow, calculated play you can react to. There's no need to further mitigate it with armor. Its whole point is to make sure that tanks aren't immortal, because that was an issue when Vayne was released. Even then, building armor still helps against Vayne in general, because everything else in her kit is physical damage.

EschetonDec 11, 20186 votes

Yeah, no.

In theory, that makes sense. And if you never played a tank into vayne, sure. Vayne into the old unstoppable Mundo body when Lulu-Kog comps where a thing in competitive made sense.

However, during actual games, no. Vayne has burst. Especially nowadays that tanks gets bursted by everyone, much less a specialist.

KFCeytronDec 11, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, no.

In theory, that makes sense. And if you never played a tank into vayne, sure. Vayne into the old unstoppable Mundo body when Lulu-Kog comps where a thing in competitive made sense.

However, during actual games, no. Vayne has burst. Especially nowadays that tanks gets bursted by everyone, much less a specialist.

And Vayne's burst doesn't come from Silver Bolts, because that ability chunks everyone at exactly the same, steady rate, by design. It's an average of 2.8% of the target's max health per hit, only it requires two hits with no bonus followed by backloading that damage on the third hit.

KynamiDec 11, 20184 votes

Once she has the BotRK and Rageblade you have the issue of every two hits has taken at least a third of your health. Its the fact her kit interacts with certain items in a way that very quickly invalidates any defensive purchases. And because of how tumble and ult stealth works... point and click CC such as a Lissandra ultimate is the best way of actually dealing with her.

IntegratedShadowDec 11, 20186 votes

She's also squishy af and highly susceptible to hard cc. A good Leona, Thresh, Braum, plug in other hard cc supports here will shut her down. Though, I'll admit, it requires a competent adc to follow up and kill her.

Also, with her short range, can you imagine if she didn't have that move speed. She'd be in the garbo fam, for sure.

EschetonDec 11, 201810 votes

Yes, early game, she is theoretically weak and can be shut down. The rest of the time however you can't function or exist anywhere remotely near her as a tank.

Guess I'm back to permabanning her. Been a fun year.

IntegratedShadowDec 11, 20183 votes

I main Leona, Thresh, and Rakan and short of her getting ridiculously fed, she's NEVER been overwhelming. With cooperation and communication with the team, she's always manageable.

If she really gives you that much trouble, ban her like you said, but you could also practice with champions that naturally counter her short range and mobility like Caitlyn Draven KogMaw Twitch MissFortune

Hopefully you can work shit out with her, good luck on the Rift

EschetonDec 11, 20183 votes

I mostly have an issue with her when I'm not the one laning against her. Such as when playing toplane tanks.

If I am, that means my last pick adc hovered and I didn't wanna face the rage from banning her. In which case I pick Zyra and just ruin her.

No Chat SystemDec 11, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Yes, early game, she is theoretically weak and can be shut down. The rest of the time however you can't function or exist anywhere remotely near her as a tank.

Guess I'm back to permabanning her. Been a fun year.

I don't even think she is weak early game unless you're talking level 3 and under.

Cats Are FoodDec 11, 201816 votes

She doesn't HAVE to switch targets. By three shots mid game you're either dead or running. She can walk around, or through, your tanks and pop up infront of your squishies. At which point she turns on the tanks because they get kited to oblivion.

She is already exceedingly mobile.

KFCeytronDec 11, 201831 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cats Are Food,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2018-12-11T03:29:01.967+0000)

She doesn't HAVE to switch targets. By three shots mid game you're either dead or running. She can walk around, or through, your tanks and pop up infront of your squishies. At which point she turns on the tanks because they get kited to oblivion.

She is already exceedingly mobile.

If she's three-shotting you, her Silver Bolts are nearly irrelevant.

Daddy ReTaricDec 11, 201819 votes

Being dog shit early game and still manage to become an hyper carry because Lulz Op kit should not be thing... Vayne Yasuo

ZeroAgainstDec 11, 20189 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quinn Is Bae,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-11T02:15:48.394+0000)

Being dog shit early game and still manage to become an hyper carry because Lulz Op kit should not be thing...

ironically with this meta shit early game dosent matter anymore expect vayne to stay strong till a rework because thats how its gonna be unless some how a lane bully like draven gets buffed expect cancerous shit in s9 tbh and even then it has to be lane bullys who sit down and stay there shitting on them through there big ups

EedatDec 11, 20183 votes

unless some how a lane bully like draven gets buffed

or like........ Lucian?

IntegratedShadowDec 11, 20188 votes

Her range makes that a high risk/high reward part of her kit though. If she doesn't play it well, she gets destroyed.

That being said, if you win against her in lane, rotate, and let her free farm minions for 10 minutes, yeah, you're gonna get destroyed later.

ValyrianBladeDec 11, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Demon DARK Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-12-11T02:59:40.141+0000)

Her range makes that a high risk/high reward part of her kit though. If she doesn't play it well, she gets destroyed.

That being said, if you win against her in lane, rotate, and let her free farm minions for 10 minutes, yeah, you're gonna get destroyed later.

To play devil's advocate here - she has Condemn and Tumble AND stealth from ult-Q (and MS towards enemies, which with how directions work is basically in every direction).

Literally every other ability in her kit gives her self peel.

She can mess up positioning and not be punished pretty easily. It's not like Kog'maw or Jinx or Sivir who really can't create a gap once the gap they have disappears.

IntegratedShadowDec 11, 20184 votes

At max rank, Condemn has a 12 second CD, 20 at rank 1, and her ult at max rank lasts 12 seconds, it only lasts 8 at rank 1. That's without CDR of course but most of her go-to items don't provide it, except for Ghost Blade. I get what you're saying though, but this post is making her out to be this unbeatable adc when she has a win-rate below 50%.

This entire thread legitimately comes down to the OP having bad experiences with her or not playing well against her. In a similar way, I think Zyra is busted af Lol, but that's neither here nor there.

LTK KoRoDec 11, 20182 votes

I mean, i won't argue that most of Vayne issues stem from bad experience against her, but ValyrianBlade have a some good points.

Vayne have tons of self peel, but her self peel is much better in 1 vs 1 situations than during teamfights. She won't save usually save her life in a teamfight with a condemn, but at once condemn alone can make enemy Renekton to die instead of stunlock and kill Vayne.

Vayne is unique because she's not an unbeatable ADC, but she's an nearly unbeatable duelist. Her sidelaning is actually top notch and she wins by default against like 80% of the bruisers/assassins.

I kind of agree with both sides of a coin here, but i don't think that anyone can disagree that Vayne is a problematic champion and any buffs to her should be given with big caution.

Critmaster GarenDec 11, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=Demon DARK Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-12-11T02:59:40.141+0000)

Her range makes that a high risk/high reward part of her kit though. If she doesn't play it well, she gets destroyed.

you know whats actually short ranged?

melee champions.

having 550 auto attack range isnt even short for a marksman. its average.

but vayne in general needs to get some sort of rework that allows her opponents to outplay her w, and not be a champion of "you allowed me to get 3 items. i win".

IntegratedShadowDec 11, 20186 votes

Well yeah dude, they're MELEE. She wouldn't be a MARKSMAN if she had melee range now would she? And she doesn't "win" if you get 3 items on her, but I've elaborated on that plenty in previous comments I've made :)

Critmaster GarenDec 11, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Demon DARK Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=000300020000,timestamp=2018-12-11T04:31:33.073+0000)

Well yeah dude, they're MELEE. She wouldn't be a MARKSMAN if she had melee range now would she? And she doesn't "win" if you get 3 items on her, but I've elaborated on that plenty in previous comments I've made :)

her kit has literally no counterplay.

all other sources of % true damage in this game come with some sort of mechanic attached to them that the champion and his opponent can play around.

for some reason though this isnt true for a ranged champion whod need this counterplay more than her melee counterparts, since she already has the luxurity to apply this damage from a distance.

it pisses me off in general, how melee carries are generally held to higher standarts when it comes to counterplay than ranged carries.

Aatrox gets a displacement on his w that his opponents can walk out of. Vayne Tristana get point and click disengages that always reliably knock their targets away.

Aatrox has to play around the hit zones on his q to deal noticable damage, and get his passive on a lower cooldown. Vayne Tristana literally just press a button to access their damage steroids.

this is just one example.

a lot of melee carries have some sort of mechanic in their kit that they have to play around to access their ability to carry, and that are by design outplayable by their opponents. meanwhile almost all marksmen dont follow the same design standarts and have their steroids easily accessable without a way for their opponents to play around them.

Draven is an exception for marksmen, where he doesnt just get more damage on the press of a button, but has to catch axes to amplify his damage, which can give his opponent the ability to deny him this steroid.

IntegratedShadowDec 11, 20183 votes

Lol, it honestly sounds to me like you just have a hard time playing against her and you want people to agree with you that she's busted and needs to be nerfed but I don't see it man. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Like I said in another comment on this thread, she's got a 48.8% win rate. If she was as OP as you're making her out to be, it'd be higher than that.

Critmaster GarenDec 11, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Demon DARK Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=00030002000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-11T04:39:24.352+0000)

Lol, it honestly sounds to me like you just have a hard time playing against

it sounds honestly that it has nothing to do with how i play against her, but how the champion is designed, and how different design standarts are applied to marksmen vs. melee carries.

for some reason riot tends to be more focused to give melee champions counterplay into their kits, than ranged carries.

GayFluffyUnicornDec 11, 20182 votes

Don't worry it's true what you think no matter what these boards say.

KFCeytronDec 11, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2018-12-11T04:29:43.897+0000)

you know whats actually short ranged?

melee champions.

having 550 auto attack range isnt even short for a marksman. its average.

but vayne in general needs to get some sort of rework that allows her opponents to outplay her w, and not be a champion of "you allowed me to get 3 items. i win".

Vayne has nothing in her kit that allows her to touch anything beyond 550 units. Meanwhile, Sivir, Ez, Lucian, Draven, etc. aren't totally irrelevant if they're not in autoattack range.

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=0003000200000000,timestamp=2018-12-11T04:34:33.845+0000)

her kit has literally no counterplay.

You're already wrong. Don't get between Vayne and a wall, move away when Vayne tries to hit you with a Tumble auto (or punish her when she does), step behind your team if you don't want her to build W stacks on you... "Literally no counterplay," sure.

Critmaster GarenDec 11, 20185 votes

{quoted}

You're already wrong. Don't get between Vayne and a wall, move away when Vayne tries to hit you with a Tumble auto (or punish her when she does), step behind your team if you don't want her to build W stacks on you... "Literally no counterplay," sure.

1.) i already went over this. you cant outplay condemn. you can try to outplay the stun, but the displacement in itself is already powerful on its own. its a free oh shit button if by some miracle you managed to flank her and get into melee range.

2.) you cant easily disengage from vayne. she has her passive and shes incredibly mobile. even if you disengage, she can just switch target. there is no actual downside for her to switch the target shes auto attacking. shell get 3 attacks off on you anyways. it takes less than a second.

3.) yes, there is not a single ability in her kit that its possible to outplay. q? mobility tool. w? passive. e? direct targeted. r? steroid active.

you cant play around her kit like you can play around other champions.

ill be fair so far and say that this isnt just a vayne issue, but a lot of marksmen have this kind of poor design.

im still convinced she should get a kit rework that makes her more fair to play against.

KFCeytronDec 11, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=000300020000000000010000,timestamp=2018-12-11T04:55:24.938+0000)

1.) i already went over this. you cant outplay condemn. you can try to outplay the stun, but the displacement in itself is already powerful on its own. its a free oh shit button if by some miracle you managed to flank her and get into melee range.

2.) you cant easily disengage from vayne. she has her passive and shes incredibly mobile. even if you disengage, she can just switch target. there is no actual downside for her to switch the target shes auto attacking. shell get 3 attacks off on you anyways. it takes less than a second.

3.) yes, there is not a single ability in her kit that its possible to outplay. q? mobility tool. w? passive. e? direct targeted. r? steroid active.

you cant play around her kit like you can play around other champions.

ill be fair so far and say that this isnt just a vayne issue, but a lot of marksmen have this kind of poor design.

im still convinced she should get a kit rework that makes her more fair to play against.

You can outplay the Condemn. Don't get between Vayne and a wall, and try a gap closer like a movespeed boost (her movespeed boost only works when chasing, not running away).

Work with your team. LoL is a MOBA, not a "1v1 me, bro." Vayne is a lot less likely to go for you if you stick with your team. If you get her to switch targets, then great; her Silver Bolts will lose their current stacks. And no, you can't just declare that she'll get three attacks out, even though that's at most 14% of your max health anyway.

I already told you the counterplay. Coming back with "BUT NO THERE ISN'T" just tells me that you have no interest in learning anything or having a discussion, and all you want to do is scream until Riot buffs the things you like and nerfs the things you don't like. Riot only does that for Hashinshin, and not as often as he'd like.

Critmaster GarenDec 11, 20184 votes

{quoted}

You can outplay the Condemn. Don't get between Vayne and a wall, and try a gap closer like a movespeed boost (her movespeed boost only works when chasing, not running away).

Work with your team. LoL is a MOBA, not a "1v1 me, bro." Vayne is a lot less likely to go for you if you stick with your team. If you get her to switch targets, then great; her Silver Bolts will lose their current stacks. And no, you can't just declare that she'll get three attacks out, even though that's at most 14% of your max health anyway.

I already told you the counterplay. Coming back with "BUT NO THERE ISN'T" just tells me that you have no interest in learning anything or having a discussion, and all you want to do is scream until Riot buffs the things you like and nerfs the things you don't like. Riot only does that for Hashinshin, and not as often as he'd like.

its funny, since youre the one who dindnt actually read through the points i was making there.

KFCeytronDec 11, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=00030002000000000001000000010000,timestamp=2018-12-11T05:17:02.611+0000)

its funny, since youre the one who dindnt actually read through the points i was making there.

I did read through them. They were awful. This thread is nothing more than an "I died and there was nothing I could do! nerf the thing that killed me!" complaint.

Critmaster GarenDec 11, 20186 votes

{quoted}

I did read through them. They were awful. This thread is nothing more than an "I died and there was nothing I could do! nerf the thing that killed me!" complaint.

i didnt even play a single game against vayne this week.

nothing of this thread has to do with me having problems playing against the champion.

the problem is that a lot of ranged carries, and especially vayne, are held to much lower standarts when it comes to counterplay, than their melee counterparts.

this is becoming relevant now that riot has buffs slated for her on the pbe which will undoubtly break the champion - again. lets not pretend this is going to be the first time. infact, there wasnt a single time when vayne wasnt autmatically overpowered when she was relevant in solo que, because being relevant usually means that her early game wasnt trash enough to keep her from scaling most of the time.

her entire basic design is problematic. it relies on a broken mechanic with way too little counterplay.

and yes, a 3 hit passive (2 with rageblade) on a champion who stacks raw attack speed, and has a short cooldown auto attack reset built into her kit doesnt create counterplay. when she can get 3 autos off in less than a second, then you cant physically make her switch target often enough for it to impact her.

KFCeytronDec 11, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=0003000200000000000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-11T05:23:43.011+0000)

i didnt even play a single game against vayne this week.

nothing of this thread has to do with me having problems playing against the champion.

the problem is that a lot of ranged carries, and especially vayne, are held to much lower standarts when it comes to counterplay, than their melee counterparts.

this is becoming relevant now that riot has buffs slated for her on the pbe which will undoubtly break the champion - again. (lets not pretend this is going to be the first time)

her entire basic design is problematic. it relies on a broken mechanic with way too little counterplay.

and yes, a 3 hit passive (2 with rageblade) on a champion who stacks raw attack speed, and has a short cooldown auto attack reset built into her kit doesnt create counterplay. when she can get 3 autos off in less than a second, then you cant physically make her switch target often enough for it to impact her.

You're only proving that getting a W proc isn't impossible. It doesn't mean she gets all of them, or that there's nothing the enemy team (team) can do to prevent it. For example, if she sees her target joined by a teammate or two when she's only attacked once, she may decide to back off until they're either isolated again or distracted by a teamfight.

If there's really no counterplay and she'll never waste any stacks, her W might as well be something that stacks on her as a buff rather than an enemy debuff. Right? Should we do that instead?

Critmaster GarenDec 11, 20185 votes

{quoted}

You're only proving that getting a W proc isn't impossible.

no, im saying its fucking easy.

like really easy.

incredibly easy.

at least compared to proccing vitals by having to move around a target thats trying to counteract your movement and hiding vitals inside walls, or being limited to a specific target on the enemy team that you have no control over.

compared to that, auto attacking at 550 range 3 times with a reset in your kit, or 2 times with a rageblade (which is currently her most common build) takes no fucking efford whatsoever.

holy shit, how does this still not go into your head at this point?

BjørnetjenestenDec 11, 20181 votes

Vaynes effective range at all points is 550, she has no abilities that goes beyond this point. Literally every other marksman can do dmg or influence the game beyond 550 range.

Critmaster GarenDec 11, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Vaynes effective range at all points is 550, she has no abilities that goes beyond this point. Literally every other marksman can do dmg or influence the game beyond 550 range.

well guess what. 550 range is still more than most carries get in this game. youre only comparing marksmen to other marksmen who are similarly poorly designed with the same lack of counterplay to their steroids.

none of this is really an agument to why vaynes w passive shouldnt be tied to a mechanic similar to dravens axes. i keep bringing him up, because hes one of the very few marksmen who has his ability to carry tied to a mechanic that his opponents are able to play around and have a chance to deny him.

draven is one of the few ranged carries who are held to similar design standarts as melee carries. you outplay fioras vitals, and shes not going to carry. you outplay dravens axes and make him drop them, hes not going to carry.

considering the impact of silver bolts, this would be even more important for vayne. otherwise she will always be pidgeonholed to garbage tier to keep her in check, or massively overtuned and permabanned.

JackMcSnipeyzDec 11, 20188 votes

Give Vayne the same base stats and base damage as Garen while building bruiser and we'll call it even

ResterDec 11, 20184 votes

Personally I'd prefer if it did physical damage instead of true damage, just like how Kog's tank shred is tied to magic damage.

Sewer SideDec 11, 201824 votes

{quoted}

Personally I'd prefer if it did physical damage instead of true damage, just like how Kog's tank shred is tied to magic damage.

Kog’s % damage is also not limited to auto attacking a target 3 times before it comes into effect and can be proc’d in an AoE with Hurricane. While it does have a cooldown, he is also granted extreme auto range.

Not to mention Rageblade Kog will do 18% max HP magic damage every 2 shots vs Rageblade Vayne’s 14% true damage every 2 shots, but with the luxury of being able to use Hurricane.

Vayne’s true damage is already gated by the fact it’s single target and a 3 hit passive.

ParoeDec 11, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sewer Side,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-12-11T03:02:53.102+0000)

Kog’s % damage is also not limited to auto attacking a target 3 times before it comes into effect and can be proc’d in an AoE with Hurricane. While it does have a cooldown, he is also granted extreme auto range.

Not to mention Rageblade Kog will do 18% max HP magic damage every 2 shots vs Rageblade Vayne’s 14% true damage every 2 shots, but with the luxury of being able to use Hurricane.

Vayne’s true damage is already gated by the fact it’s single target and a 3 hit passive.

But youre comparing a 100% immobile champion who relies on not being CC'd to function to a highly mobile (soon to be) perma stealthed champion who deals more damage by far with better itemization?

Doesnt vaynes silver bolts scale with AD too?

Sewer SideDec 11, 20186 votes

{quoted}

But youre comparing a 100% immobile champion who relies on not being CC'd to function to a highly mobile (soon to be) perma stealthed champion who deals more damage by far with better itemization?

Doesnt vaynes silver bolts scale with AD too?

No, Vayne’s W doesn’t scale with anything besides spell rank.

Kog and Vayne both have similar itemization, Kog even getting more benefit from defensive items like Zhonya’s and Banshees, much like Kai’Sa. Not sure how Vayne has it better, since Kog is also as useful with GA.

While Vayne is more mobile than a champion with zero mobility, Vayne is good in combat. Her 200 unit dash that doesn’t go through walls isn’t something I’d consider peak mobility though if she’s forced to flee.