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ADCs have been slowly powercreeped since the beginning of LoL. That's why they're a problem.

WoonStruck··20 votes·1,038 views

item 3031 Original stats vs current stats

  • 4080 - 3400 = -680 gold cost

  • 80 AD - 70 AD = -10 AD (350 gold)

  • 20% crit chance = no change.

Independant of ANY other items, item 3031 became 330 gold more efficient AFTER you consider the 10 AD lost.

Now, this may not seem like a lot, and realistically its not...but then consider that there are several new crit items:

item 3094 item 3085 item 3087 item 3508 that do nothing but multiply benefits of the already insane DPS increase that crits provide.

Consider how ADCs were already considered gods back when LoL was starting out. It lead to overloaded champions like release Irelia and release Xin Zhao just to address them.

The reason ADCs were originally considered gods, along with why its worse now:

  • Ranged DPS = safety ---> item 3094 More DPS and safety

  • High single target DPS ---> item 3085 High AoE DPS

  • Very high DPS ---> item 3087 Very high burst, followed by DPS

  • High crit damage + attack speed to compensate for relatively low AD ---> item 3508 Even more AD to go with your crit. Let's throw in 30% CDR to make you even safer.

While we're at it, we can take a look at ADC defensive items.

  • item 3140 ---> item 3139 +65 AD and 10% lifesteal for ADs. Nobody else. Just ADs.

  • Guardian Angel 75 armor, 40 MR, 2600g. ---> item 3026 -45 armor and - 40 MR. +45 AD for 2400g. Costs less gold and grants even more AD. Just for ADs.

  • Bloodthirster 70 AD, 12% lifesteal, +30 AD and 6% lifesteal @ 40 stacks, lose half on death for 3000g ----->item 3072 80 AD, 20% lifesteal for 3700g, up to 350 HP shield for 25 seconds out of combat when overhealing. item 3812 is infinitely better right now IF YOU GRAB A LIFESTEAL ITEM AT ALL. item 3504 item 3504 item 3504 item 3504 item 3504. Basically, no trade-off to their defensive itemization now AND it offers more now.

ADCs in general have been made significantly stronger early-mid game. Many of their kits now scale with crit. Crit as a whole is much easier to stack.

  • Meanwhile, supports have been progressively powercreeped both in kit and itemization, giving ADCs even more agency.

  • Tank/bruiser itemization and kits, for the most part, have been progressively nerfed.

  • AP itemization and kits have been progressively nerfed.

  • Assassins take longer to do their damage than it takes for ADCs to DPS them down.

  • Far more peel in the game now, especially self-peel in ADC kits.

#This is all from the point where ADCs were considered overpowered in season 1.

#Is it really so hard to see why ADCs are such a problem now?

26 Comments

Mordepool5 votes

It has bothered me for years.

Mens Hair Club3 votes

share the powercreep w/ the rest of us and i wont complain

ProfDrDeath3 votes

Counterpoint 1:

That was not the strongest IE in LoL's history.

In fact, strongest IE was between patches 1.0.0.115 (mid-season 1) and 1.0.0.152 (preseason 3):

  • 3830 gold (430 more than now) - overall stat gold efficiency 136% with the passive, at that time's stat values.
  • 80 AD (5 more than now) - worth 207.5 gold back then.
  • 25% Crit Chance (5 more than now) - worth 250 gold back then.

Current IE is cheaper, but also less gold-efficient (107%).

Counterpoint 2:

Bloodthirster back then was a lot more powerful and cheaper.

  • 60 - 100 AD compared to 80 nowadays.
  • 15 - 25% Lifesteal (or 12 - 20% after patch 1.0.0.136), compared to 20 nowadays
  • 3000 gold, compared to 3700 gold
  • no Overheal passive

Counterpoint 3:

Masteries lost a massive amount of damage amplification: There used to be crit chance, %-damage boni, crit damage boni. In equal amounts, they lost defense options: Previously, tier 1-3 defensive masteries had up to 136 bonus HP and up to 6 bonus Armor.

WoonStruck4 votes

{quoted}

Counterpoint 1:

That was not the strongest IE in LoL's history.

In fact, strongest IE was between patches 1.0.0.115 (mid-season 1) and 1.0.0.152 (preseason 3):

  • 3830 gold (430 more than now) - overall stat gold efficiency 136% with the passive, at that time's stat values.
  • 80 AD (5 more than now) - worth 207.5 gold back then.
  • 25% Crit Chance (5 more than now) - worth 250 gold back then.

Current IE is cheaper, but also less gold-efficient (107%).

I wasn't referring to the strongest IE. It changed a lot in between, but the beginning and end results are what I posted.

I said that, realistically, the difference was not large, but combined with new crit itemization, its noticeable.

Counterpoint 2:

Bloodthirster back then was a lot more powerful and cheaper.

  • 60 - 100 AD compared to 80 nowadays.
  • 15 - 25% Lifesteal (or 12 - 20% after patch 1.0.0.136), compared to 20 nowadays
  • 3000 gold, compared to 3700 gold
  • no Overheal passive

Reliability. That's the key component. If you died with bloodthirster, you were offline farming until its stacked again. It was nerfed to 18% total in the end. Current Bloodthirster does have reduced AD, but thats in line with sweeping AD reductions to all itemization in the past. Not only that, but its 100% reliable now. No trade off for AD defensive itemization now. And the lifesteal went up slightly and offers a 20% hp shield out of combat for 25+ seconds, effectively now.

Counterpoint 3:

Masteries lost a massive amount of damage amplification: There used to be crit chance, %-damage boni, crit damage boni. In equal amounts, they lost defense options: Previously, tier 1-3 defensive masteries had up to 136 bonus HP and up to 6 bonus Armor.

There was one multiplier that increased damage by 3% vs enemies with less than 50% hp. There were crit masteries, but easily counterbalanced by options in the defensive tree. There's far more damage coming from masteries now than in the past, and far fewer defenses currently.

Not only that, but everyone lost those tier 1-3 defensive masteries. Its a moot point because of that. Pretty much everyone in the game used them.

Mizaya1 votes

I'd do anything for Old BT and PD back man. When you could get those two items first? Those were the days... and don't forget 35-40% (depending on the patch) total armor pen on LW. Man, in the context of support and jungle meta, ADC sure seems pretty strong, but back in the days of old BT, those were the times when ADC was actually really fun to play.

As for masteries, in s2 you got the following from the offensive Tree: +4% AS +12 AD @ 18 +8% Armor pen +2% DMG +3 Flat AD +10% AS +6 Armor Pen +5% DMG to targets < 50%.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

{quoted}

Counterpoint 1:

That was not the strongest IE in LoL's history.

In fact, strongest IE was between patches 1.0.0.115 (mid-season 1) and 1.0.0.152 (preseason 3):

  • 3830 gold (430 more than now) - overall stat gold efficiency 136% with the passive, at that time's stat values.
  • 80 AD (5 more than now) - worth 207.5 gold back then.
  • 25% Crit Chance (5 more than now) - worth 250 gold back then.

Current IE is cheaper, but also less gold-efficient (107%).

Counterpoint 2:

Bloodthirster back then was a lot more powerful and cheaper.

  • 60 - 100 AD compared to 80 nowadays.
  • 15 - 25% Lifesteal (or 12 - 20% after patch 1.0.0.136), compared to 20 nowadays
  • 3000 gold, compared to 3700 gold
  • no Overheal passive

Counterpoint 3:

Masteries lost a massive amount of damage amplification: There used to be crit chance, %-damage boni, crit damage boni. In equal amounts, they lost defense options: Previously, tier 1-3 defensive masteries had up to 136 bonus HP and up to 6 bonus Armor.

Objective facts and statistics? You have no power here!

hhaavviikk3 votes

''let's give these squishy ADC's high AD items which also have defensive benefits, what could possibly go wrong'' back in season 1 you didn't see an ADC with 130 while buying a high AD item, they would buy banshee's veil and gain 0 AD, now they just buy maw of malmortious or w/e and gain AD + MR + other benefits

Tychusfindlay9182 votes

u right

King of Demons2 votes

Not true.

Calabok1 votes

and tanks. NERF EM TOO

Kovorix1 votes

Must be a lie. ADC mains say Assassins and Tanks are overpowered so it must be true.

Nymzo1 votes

I'll just point out one thing:

{quoted}

  • Meanwhile, supports have been progressively powercreeped both in kit and itemization, giving ADCs even more agency.

For items, yes but in term of kit? I just don't see it:

I mean the last support , which was Rakan, was and is still currently doing poorly without the help of his lover.

Then we go to TahmKench, a champion who got nerfed because of his unique and frustrating mechanic (that had nothing to do with adc).

Then Bard was so weak, he had to be buffed several time.

I'm sorry but I really don't see it. Unless by ''support'', you meant enchanters. But then the last one that was introduced was Nami, and pretty much everyone agrees that she is well designed despite being 5 years old already.

I understand the frustration of Ardent but get your facts right.

Mens Hair Club3 votes

tahm is still a busted AF support in the right hands, being able to make an ally untargetable behind a giant meat shield is hugely good as a counterpick to dive comps

bard's OP too, he just needed buffs so the average baddy could play him (see start of season 7 when they made his passive cancer)

Nymzo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mens Hair Club,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBdm09hE,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-09-05T14:21:25.861+0000)

tahm is still a busted AF support in the right hands, being able to make an ally untargetable behind a giant meat shield is hugely good as a counterpick to dive comps

bard's OP too, he just needed buffs so the average baddy could play him (see start of season 7 when they made his passive cancer)

I get what you mean but this is not the issue at hand right there.

OP is saying that pretty much recent supports' design are part of the reason why ADC is so powerful right now.

Which is false, obviously, since we all know it's item 3504 and item 3301's fault.

Last time I checked, Tahm and Bard are not the best Ardent abusers.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Rakan is actually so fuckin busted lol. He's only doing poorly in bad hands.

Nymzo1 votes

Read everything please.

I mean the last support , which was Rakan , was and is still currently doing poorly without the help of his lover.

Here, I even highlighted what you need to understand.

Also again, this is not the goddamn point.

Enraged Piglet1 votes

I mean adc's might have some strong items right now but mobilty has increased drastically and it's generally rare that the meta will allow the hyper carry adc's of the past be viable. Like Jinx/kog'maw. If anything is a bigger problem it would be that twitch is pretty strong, then it would be that tristana is hard to balance especially when they reworked her and her mid game power levels changed. Used to Tristana would be super strong the first 2 or 3 levels then she would have a strong lvl 6 then even if she got 10 kills she would be useless for 15 mins while she gets levels for her Q and passive.

You also forget that PD was nerfed, BT was nerfed and LW, was nerfed for a while, dorans blade used to be stronger and early game lane bullies were meta. Then since there wasn't as much mobilty or burst these champions had more ability to win lane and hard carry by themselves. Now carrying as an ad right now requires help from your team.

Frightning1 votes

ADCs didn't really powercreep. They were very strong late game in season 1, but were very weak at least until well into mid game when they finally started to become relevant. The main reason for them being so strong was that it was entirely reasonable to reach 100% crit w/ 6-item build and they often also had ~520 MS thanks to triple Phantom Dancer (back when the MS was 15% and non-unique, it frequently replaced boots later on). That got nerfed, and then from seasons 2 through 5 ADCs were kept at more or less the same overall powerlevel, then season 6 happened the new (efficient) ADC items arrived and many ADCs themselves received buffs on top of it, and whaddaya know, ADCs have late game like they did in season 1, yet are much stronger in earlier phases of the game too (thanks to many other changes that have happened over their history).

As for solutions: I'd rather see them buff other classes and their items than nerf ADCs a ton, I really feel like current ADC itemization is well designed and pretty balanced on it's own, so I'd hate to see them ruin that in an effort to rollback ADC powerlevels to being comparable to other archetypes.

Jaygo411 votes

Slowly? You call the AD update slowly?

WoonStruck2 votes

ADC update wasn't until season 6. ADCs were still getting powercreeped long before that.

LilxPaprika1 votes

It was a different game way back when. there are more support type items now. and a lot of adcs got compensated when they received new kits. I would like to see some lifesteal be taken off elixir and put into items instead. Or even bring back the good lifesteal quintessence runes. Maybe have 1st quint give 1.80, second 1.65, third, 1.5% I would also like better crit runes (maybe add scaling), that's my 2 cents.

Paroe2 votes

{quoted}

It was a different game way back when. there are more support type items now. and a lot of adcs got compensated when they received new kits. I would like to see some lifesteal be taken off elixir and put into items instead. Or even bring back the good lifesteal quintessence runes. Maybe have 1st quint give 1.80, second 1.65, third, 1.5% I would also like better crit runes (maybe add scaling), that's my 2 cents.

Crit needs to be removed period. Replacing it with energized seems like a good idea. Heres a suggestion; "Energized arrow" = the main component of all former crit items. energized arrow = item 2015 +item 1037+25g

item 3087 = 25AD, 40% attack speed, 2900G item 3094 = 25AD, 35% attack speed, 3000G item 3046 = 25AD, 50% attack speed, 5% movespeed, 3100G. Energized: Ghost strike; your next energized attack activates twice for 60% damage and you can move through units for 3 seconds. item 3085 = 25AD, 45% attack speed, 7% movespeed, 3200g. Energized: Hurricane: Your basic attack is accompanied by two energetic bolts which proc energized effects at 40% and deal 0.5 bonus AD as physical damage. item 3508 = 20% CDR, 70AD, 3600G, Energized: Essence drain; Your next energized attack recovers 50% of the damage dealt as mana and 10% of the damage dealt as health. item 3031 = 70AD, 3400G, passive: Energized attacks gain 20% bonus AD 0.3bonus AD scaling on all effects.

What this does is;

  1. It makes marksman itemization reliant on energized effects
  2. It removes their semi-inconstistant damage pattern
  3. It rewards good micro skill
  4. Its self-contained (its got life steal, up front burst, scaling.)
  5. Its very situational and non-cookie cutter (Shiv+PD+hurricane+IE could easily be a build due to the synergy between hurricane and PD, but RFC+IE+Shiv might be better in a siege comp)
  6. Its just number balancing to get the amounts right. "Core" items like statikk shiv would be behind a level wall so you dont get your core and become godly, you would need to get ahead. And finally the last point; 7) These changes force marksman into a very thought-heavy, resource managing, late-game type of playstyle that means they powerspike WAY later and thus snowball that much later.
LilxPaprika1 votes

I'm confused by what you mean by energized. I'm familiar with flattening crit so it becomes an AA damage amplifier. energized would be like this? or would it work at regular intervals?

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

I'm confused by what you mean by energized. I'm familiar with flattening crit so it becomes an AA damage amplifier. energized would be like this? or would it work at regular intervals?

... "Energized" is the current passive on all item 2015 and the way warlords blood lust works. As you move and attack you gain charges, at 100 charges you next attack becomes energized. The suggested item changes make all former crit items energized items instead. Energized effects from different items stack, and each energized item both has a purpose AND has synergies within itself.

It would nerf marksman, make their scaling more linear, remove the "psuedo RNG" factor inherent in crit, and turn just about all traditional marksmen into proper late-game hyper carries with actual weaknesses in the early and mid game (which will be mitigated by their kit, as marksman were originally intended...)

Sire Hippington1 votes

For the cost-efficency of IE, bear in mind the goldflow changes in S6:

"With items costing more as part of our global efficiency pass, we're injecting more cash into the flow, as well as a little extra for the down-and-out. "

They increased overall gold income and overall item costs. With this context, IE has powercreeped more than just 330g, Given that most 3k+ items increased by 200-500g, old Ie would have been at ~4400g with the new goldflow/itemcosts system, so it now costs effectively 1k less while only giving 350g less stats.

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