Lich Bane vs Luden's Echo discussion

I wanted to have a discussion about two items that I feel have similar purposes. They're both supposed to add a bit more burst to an AP champion's kit. Lately I've been seeing Luden's built on pretty much every AP midlaner. I see many many more Luden's than I see Lich Banes anymore. I wanted to address the pros and cons of each item, the numbers behind them, and why you might not want to give Lich Bane up for your Melee AP Assassins. Lets start by looking at the stats of each:

:

Recipe: + +900g = total cost 3000g

• 100 AP
• 10% movement speed

UNIQUE: Gains charges upon moving or casting. At 100 charges, the next instance of ability damage you deal will expend all charges to deal 100 (+ 10% AP) bonus magic damage to the first enemy hit and summon up to 3 lesser bolts that target nearby enemies, prioritizing enemies damaged by the ability and champions over minions.

:

Recipe: + +850g = total cost 3000g

• 80 AP
• 5% movement speed
• 250 mana

UNIQUE – SPELLBLADE: After using an ability, your next basic attack deals 75% base AD + (50% AP) bonus magic damage (1.5 second cooldown).

OK, so lets talk about the raw stats. Since both items have the exact same cost, I feel like its a fair apples to apples comparison. The question: is +250 mana worth losing +20 AP and +5% movement speed? No, not really. I think it's pretty obvious the Luden's has the better base stats. The Luden's does have a better build path though. A is stronger than a in my opinion

So lets take a look at the passives of both. The Luden's is pretty straight forward with 100 base damage with a 10% AP ratio. The Lich Bane is a bit more complex with a 75% base AD + 50% AP. For the purpose of the discussion, let take a look at a few (not saying all) champions who traditionally use Lich Bane as a core item. Lets talk .

Usually Lich bane is a first or second item buy. For the purpose of this discussion, lets talk about rushing a vs rushing a . So lets assume a normal 21/9/0 AP mastery page and a normal AP rune page with magic pen reds and flat AP quints. At around level 7-8 when Diana, for example, finishes her Lich Bane or Luden's, she will have somewhere around 130 AP with the Lich Bane and 150 AP with the Luden's, assuming she bought a to start. Lets do some quick math and figure out which item offers more burst. The Luden's is easy. 100 (base) + 15 (10% AP) for a total of 115 each proc. The Lich Bane requires some other numbers. Diana's base AD is 53 and +3.0 AD per level. At level 7 this puts her base AD at 74. If we plug that into the Lich Bane formula we end up with 56 (75% base AD) + 65 (50% AP) for a total of 121 per proc. This is actually 6 damage more than the Luden's (if we ignore the splash damage to minions from the Luden's). However, you also have to figure in that the Luden's is giving you an extra 20 AP over the Lich Bane, which results in a net loss of damage from a full spell rotation early on. The Luden's Also give move movement speed which helps you survive as a melee assassin from being poked down.

By the time you get a second item though, Lich Bane starts to shine. I think for this example using a as a 2nd item is fair. At this point you will be around 230 AP with Lich Bane and 250 AP with Luden's (still assuming you started with a Doran's Ring). Let's also assume you're around level 13-ish when you finish your second item. This is just an example. This is of course going to change depending on how well you are farming and if you have any kills. Lets do the math again. The Luden's proc will do 100 + 25 = 125 damage. The Lich Bane will now do 65 + 115 = 170 damage per proc.

This brings up a point. As with most abilities/items, those with higher base damage and lower ratios are stronger in the early game. Those with lower base damages and higher ratios are stronger the longer the game goes. I will concede that Lich Bane isn't a very efficient first buy anymore after the nerf in patch 4.4 which was: Spellblade now deals (+75% base AD)(+50% AP) instead of 50 (+75% AP). But as a second item it is still pretty good. It's not completely terrible as a first buy now, but it isnt the most efficient.

Another key element to point out is that the passive has a cooldown of 1.5 seconds while the Luden's takes much longer charge back up. On champions like , , and it is very easy to get 2-3 Lich Bane procs off if you space your spells correctly. This obviously makes the Lich Bane a much better value in terms of raw damage. The likelyhood of getting 2 Ludens procs off inn one spell rotation is pretty low.

There is no denying that the Lich Bane will eventually outscale a Luden's. The 100 base damage from the Luden's doesn't mean too much late game, but the .50 AP ratio from the Lich Bane is going to be strong compared to the .10 AP ratio on the Luden's. The longer the game goes on, the stronger the Lich Bane gets in comparison to a Ludens

By this point I know some people are think what about champions like etc. I will agree that Luden's is obviously the better choice. Long-range harass champions want to avoid being too close to the enemies pretty much all the time. It doesnt make sense to get a Lich Bane on these champions who want to avoid getting within auto range most of the time anyway. The point of this post is mostly to address people building Luden's over a Lich Bane on AP assassins/bruisers.

I also didnt want to address AP as the best way to build him has always been a highly debated topic. Some people say or for the harass while others build him while others build him or for kiting. I don't think I'm really qualified to speak on AP Ezreal, so I'm not going to.

There is another AP midlaner that I see building over that I feel is much stronger with the and that is . I feel Ekko is much stronger with a Lich Bane over a Ludens

The last point I want to address is the nature of the passives on the two items. The passive of the Luden's is safer than the Lich Bane. If you are struggling in lane as Diana for example, the Ludens is safer. It gives you a bit more poke with your Q with the passive and +20 AP while giving you a bit more move speed to hopefully dodge incoming harass. The Lich Bane obviously is riskier to use. However, on champions like Fizz it makes almost no sense to build the Luden's over a Lich bane. Fizz's harass pretty much always puts him in melee range

Going to end with a TL;DR Pros and Cons list:

:

PROS: +better for long-range harass champions +safer to use passive for anyone with at least one ranged ability +higher base stats for the same amount of gold +more move speed for juking enemy harass/chasing someone down/roaming/etc

CONS: +low AP ratio falls off mid-late game +much longer charge up time for passive +low likelihood of getting 2 procs off in one trade

:

PROS: +much higher AP ratio +can proc its passive at least 2-3 times in a trade +very strong mid-late game +very strong on champions with other on hit effects (Diana's passive or Fizz's W for example)

CONS: +passive spellblade is riskier in nature +lower base stats than a Luden's +doesn't make too much sense on long-range harass champs +not a very efficient first item

DISCLAIMER! READ ME PLEASE: I'm only Silver in ranked. I really dont play much ranked, but I do get matched against Gold to low Plat every time in normal games. I'm only addressing what I see at this ELO. I am in no way trying to speak for games in Diamond+. I am in no way trying to say I'm the best at this game. I'm only arguing numbers and basic assumptions. I did not address every single champion that can use a Lich Bane or Luden's as this post is long enough already and I think my point is clear. Please excuse any typos I may have made