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Veigar is not weak, but

Sasogwa··36 votes·2,997 views

BUT he needs changes, because he doesn't feel good to play at all anymore, because his kit right now is all about punishing horrible placement mistakes/ chaining his spells on his allies crowd control.

Veigar lost all his play potential. Against good players with good reactions, no matter how good Veigar is, he will not land his spells (E and W) by himself. He needs an ally presence or a mistake of his opponents to do that. This is not the case for most midlaners, even CC skillshots aren't as hard to land (Ahri charm, Leblanc chain... and these champs have mobility that Veigar doesn't)

Overall, Veigar is viable. He isn't in a good spot for a champion though. Unless you play in low elo where people have strong latency or are quite novice, you can not do anything rewarding on your skill. You land your E/W? No, it's not only because you did well, it's the opponent who did badly as well, everytime. And this is sad and not what we want.

PS : then why do I say he is not weak? Because his cage still brings a lot of utility especially for peeling, and his burst is scary.

Also, old stun was a bit unfair, but actually the fact it wasn't completely instant (cast time) brought a lot of mindgames : is he gonna stand still, move towards me or away from me? And sometimes against Veigar when you felt what he was gonna do (where he was gonna put the cage) you could actually not get caught by the edge. It wasn't as braindead as people think. Maybe with a very slightly longer cast time/ removal of warnings we could bring back that feeling , but right now it's just too damn long, and no mindgames anymore. Anyway we don't necessarily need to do that in particular, but we need to do something. Even if Veigar is viable.

39 Comments

Abyssphere10 votes

This is exactly the problem. Veigar's balance is surely fine but there's no champion I can think of that isn't a support that feels as bad to play as he does. A champion that NEEDS an ally nearby or an enemy to be truly idiotic to actually use half their kit is horrendously bad design, something that should not exist in League. If he's not allowed to reliably use his E and W then he needs a full-scale rework to remove them.

Curling Veigar4 votes

{quoted}

This is exactly the problem. Veigar's balance is surely fine but there's no champion I can think of that isn't a support that feels as bad to play as he does. A champion that NEEDS an ally nearby or an enemy to be truly idiotic to actually use half their kit is horrendously bad design, something that should not exist in League. If he's not allowed to reliably use his E and W then he needs a full-scale rework to remove them.

And now try playing him when behind. TRY making a comeback with him and carrying alone.

lol

Thryale1 votes

I just want his Q to be reverted back to a point and click. I hate having it as a skill shot, and it makes playing veigar extremely frustrating now. (not to mention having it pierce enemies makes my old 9% spell vamp runes and masteries set up worthless cuz it greatly reduces the sustain I get from it.)

HaIlMonitor7 votes

I am really wondering why people act like team fighting isn't a thing. In a chaotic team fight it is much easier last skill shots and use the utilities. Not ever champion needs to get 3-5 kills before the lane ends. Going even on scaling champion like NasusVeigar means your ahead for the team fights.

Abyssphere10 votes

{quoted}

I am really wondering why people act like team fighting isn't a thing. In a chaotic team fight it is much easier last skill shots and use the utilities. Not ever champion needs to get 3-5 kills before the lane ends. Going even on scaling champion like NasusVeigar means your ahead for the team fights.

Because Veigar was never reliant on people to do his job before and now he is. The problem isn't that he needs to farm up but that he is no longer an independent champion - he has no ability to make plays by himself outside of Flash QR. Nasus has to farm but after that can do whatever he wants, his entire kit is available to him. Veigar never gets that luxury - even after 40 minutes there's still not justification for the enemy mage to die to him if he doesn't have friends with him.

The existence of team fights is why he's not a balance problem - there comes a stage of the game where he can rely on his allies to set up his spells for him so he can actually use the entirety of his kit. But that's why this thread is explicitly saying that the problem isn't him being weak. The problem is the removal of the agency and independence of a champion that had those things before.

I think it's more than fair for someone who played a champion that was capable of 1v1ing before be depressed that they no longer have that power. No other mage is forced to group with their team to the extent that Veigar is - not even the team fight specialists like Orianna NEED accompanying friends to have any chance of using their kit.

He's not weak, he just feels weak because he's got no ability to make plays anymore.

Tyaldan1 votes

Id have to contend against that. Veigar still has tons of ways to make plays solo. My first penta kill ever was with veigar, 1v5 after they aced the rest of my team. I lead them through the jungle, using e to cut off choke points, forcing them to go around, hitting them with ws that were in bushes they were walking past or into, qs over walls. It was insane and at the end of it i felt unstoppable. If you have trouble landing your abilities, you just need to start thinking like other champions. If they are going to chase you use it, drop it so they have to stop chasing or get hit. kite them, which is hard as an immobile champ but not impossible.

Thryale1 votes

but that was them making the mistake of chasing you though the jungle. Had they just pushed mid or taken drag/baron after winning the team fight while letting you run back to base, they could have secured their lead.

Axis the Dragon2 votes

The fact that they chased you after cleaning up 4 people on your team means they were greedy. I won't deny that it's a pretty cool outplay regardless, but like Thryale said - they had just rekt your team. They could easily push 1-3-1 and get at least 2 turrets, if not an inhib.

Champion Skin3 votes

Ahead for team fights by going even on Nasus??... you do know that Nasus is usually pretty bad at team fighting right? Like if Nasus and Rumble goes even and both join a team fight... rumble will likely be more useful if he gets off a good ult...

General Murica4 votes

Hes fine (his w MIGHT need tweaks)

actually the fact it wasn't completely instant

stop

Rinky Dinky4 votes

Feels fine to play to me.

Not really seeing what the issue is. Land E, proceed to oneshot whoever you caught. Doesn't matter what champ, class, role, or items that fucker his. They are gonna die.

"But muh E delay"

Implying you can't land it still with the most mediocre amount of skill.

Trídent13 votes

"Veigar is not weak"

Nothing was stated about Veigar being lacking in game balance.

The point of the OP is that Veigar needs changes because he's unable to make satisfying plays solo, because he relies on enemy mistakes.

4th3t0s1 votes

{quoted}

"Veigar is not weak"

Nothing was stated about Veigar being lacking in game balance.

The point of the OP is that Veigar needs changes because he's unable to make satisfying plays solo, because he relies on enemy mistakes.

That's the focus of why playing him well is so satisfying. Knowing you had some part in your opponent dropping the ball, if only for 1 second; that's all he needs

JSTIN88 votes

Imagine Chogath's Q. Its a pain in the ass to land against mobile champs even if you aim dead center. Now imagine if only the edge could knock up, and it did no damage at all with a much longer CD. You now have the compensated veigar E.

Poop Johnson1 votes

{quoted}

Imagine Chogath's Q. Its a pain in the ass to land against mobile champs even if you aim dead center. Now imagine if only the edge could knock up, and it did no damage at all with a much longer CD. You now have the compensated veigar E.

You also forgot the part where Cho'Gath's Q doesn't last for 2 seconds, has a much lower radius, and can be followed up with 2 spells that are impossible to get away from if you are stunned without any type of reduction that deals 820+200% AP+ 80% of that target's AP in magic damge all from a decently far range.

Thryale2 votes

dunno bout you, but merc treads lets the enemy get away from my W every time, even with max E.

Veigar's W has a .5 second cast time and a 1.2 second delay. Now throw in latency and human reaction speeds, and you have anywhere from 1.8-2.2 seconds from the enemy being stunned to my W landing. Merc treads slashes that 2.5 sec stun down to 1.74 seconds which lets anyone with a dash/blink escape my W just before it lands.

Axis the Dragon1 votes

I'd also add that pre-16, Cho actually has MORE burst than Veigar just by virtue of his ult.

Champion Skin3 votes

Not really seeing what the issue is. Land E, proceed to oneshot whoever you caught. Doesn't matter what champ, class, role, or items that fucker his. They are gonna die.

I doubt Veigar will be able to kill an Alistar who gets "caught" in Veigars stun If Alistar has ult and breaks the stun and just moves out of the way of Veigar W and also has 70% damage reduction to survive the Q and R

Zair Umbras3 votes

If they'd remove the .5s cast time on his W, that would be awesome, because when paired with the fact it takes 1.2s to drop already, it's a bit frustrating, especially since his E is no longer instant, so leveling it isn't always the best option, yet his W isn't very good either since it takes nearly 2s to drop.

He's either going to one shot some one with his R, or he's going to drop his E and pray some one walks into a wall.

Smitty Manjensen3 votes

Veigar mains remind me of Elise mains, wanting him buffed until OP status, some friends of mine who play him actually think he's pretty good right now, also saying his stun was not instant is delusional.

Sasogwa5 votes

{quoted}

Veigar mains remind me of Elise mains, wanting him buffed until OP status, some friends of mine who play him actually think he's pretty good right now, also saying his stun was not instant is delusional.

Except I did not ask for buffs but changes, that would most likely be QoL changes with possible number nerfs. His stun was not instant is not delusional, it's a fact. It had a 0.25 cast time. This is fast. Not instant. Unless you're trying to prove me that 0 = 0.25 (good luck with that)

Also : 1) I fail to see at which point Veigar reached OP status, I remind him being picked a bit in competitive as a support, but far from the most contested pick 2) I'm not sure I should be qualified as a 'Veigar main'. I really like(d) veigar but I play some other champions more. He's one of my mains, but not the only one. 3) I played Veigar before the changes and when he was 44-45ish % winrate and I found him fine at that time, I didn't want him to have any buffs, I loved him as he was back then. What was attractive with Veigar also (and Nasus used to be the same) was the fact he was non-meta and very rarely picked, but still actually felt quite strong/satisfying to play. Totally not the champion you want on the spotlight.

Smitty Manjensen3 votes

{quoted}

Except I did not ask for buffs but changes, that would most likely be QoL changes with possible number nerfs. His stun was not instant is not delusional, it's a fact. It had a 0.25 cast time. This is fast. Not instant. Unless you're trying to prove me that 0 = 0.25 (good luck with that)

Also : 1) I fail to see at which point Veigar reached OP status, I remind him being picked a bit in competitive as a support, but far from the most contested pick 2) I'm not sure I should be qualified as a 'Veigar main'. I really like(d) veigar but I play some other champions more. He's one of my mains, but not the only one. 3) I played Veigar before the changes and when he was 44-45ish % winrate and I found him fine at that time, I didn't want him to have any buffs, I loved him as he was back then. What was attractive with Veigar also (and Nasus used to be the same) was the fact he was non-meta and very rarely picked, but still actually felt quite strong/satisfying to play. Totally not the champion you want on the spotlight.

I never said he was OP just that the QQ about the rework is not ending, with threads being made asking for buffs, same thing happened with Elise (although she was just nerfed), constant asking for buffs and she's now pretty OP, same could happen with him, the QoL buffs with nerfs you suggested is a fine approach which I can get behind.

Jari2 votes

People aren't upset because they think he isn't unplayable. They're upset because Riot promised compensation for the removal of DFG, which um... ya. This is compensation. So I guess we should "compensate" Vayne when Devourer gets nerfed?

Embertine2 votes

no matter how good Veigar is, he will not land his spells (E and W) by himself.

I don't see how you come to that conclusion. I almost always land my E and thus almost always get my W to hit.

most midlaners, even CC skillshots aren't as hard to land ( charm, chain... and these champs have mobility that Veigar doesn't)

I agree with you here. These two champions hard counter Veigar early game. However late game if he has gotten enough AP going he can one shot them with his ult. I've done this.

Anyway we don't necessarily need to do that in particular, but we need to do something. Even if Veigar is viable.

I would like to see something improved about him too. However I'm doing pretty decent with him as is right now. However Riot changes him in the future I look forward to it.

4th3t0s2 votes

Here's the thing though, since his existence, Veigar has been portrayed as a vertically-challenged megalomaniac with a touch of evil. Everything about that promotes the idea that his schtick is some twisted, calculated game of chess, not just hoping your opponent(s) will screw up, but slowly pushing them towards that point of essentially hanging themselves. Before his rework, that was still true to a point, but the safer harass and better zone control he's gotten from it fit this mentality more; just my 2c.

Sasogwa1 votes

Bump, don't hesitate to comment to make the thread live if you agree, thank you :)

Calabok1 votes

His stun blow me up routine was just to toxic. Now it's fine.

I Main Swain1 votes

if there is any one thing i would say i am worst at in league, it's landing my stuns on veigar. i have always been absolute garbage at it, i always freaking try to cast it on them T-T

tooomine1 votes

Cool. I'm up for giving veigar some built in mobility, that's be pretty cool.

WhiskerWow1 votes

Veigar and Viktor are pretty similar. Late game mages with huge burst and zone control. I think a good point for Veigar is making him more different from Viktor.

TheVishual1 votes

{quoted}

BUT he needs changes, because he doesn't feel good to play at all anymore, because his kit right now is all about punishing horrible placement mistakes/ chaining his spells on his allies crowd control.

Veigar lost all his play potential. Against good players with good reactions, no matter how good Veigar is, he will not land his spells (E and W) by himself. He needs an ally presence or a mistake of his opponents to do that. This is not the case for most midlaners, even CC skillshots aren't as hard to land (Ahri charm, Leblanc chain... and these champs have mobility that Veigar doesn't)

Overall, Veigar is viable. He isn't in a good spot for a champion though. Unless you play in low elo where people have strong latency or are quite novice, you can not do anything rewarding on your skill. You land your E/W? No, it's not only because you did well, it's the opponent who did badly as well, everytime. And this is sad and not what we want.

PS : then why do I say he is not weak? Because his cage still brings a lot of utility especially for peeling, and his burst is scary.

Also, old stun was a bit unfair, but actually the fact it wasn't completely instant (cast time) brought a lot of mindgames : is he gonna stand still, move towards me or away from me? And sometimes against Veigar when you felt what he was gonna do (where he was gonna put the cage) you could actually not get caught by the edge. It wasn't as braindead as people think. Maybe with a very slightly longer cast time/ removal of warnings we could bring back that feeling , but right now it's just too damn long, and no mindgames anymore. Anyway we don't necessarily need to do that in particular, but we need to do something. Even if Veigar is viable.

It's alot easier to farm his q now and you can get stacks much more quickly... you can't insta-stun 5 players now with his e (which is why it was changed, it was one of those really archaic abilities left over from a long time ago like fiddle 3 second Q or rammus 3 second taunt) but his cage is functionally the same and keeps people in the little area regardless of where you land it, it's a really strong ability still.

In a meta where mobility is king, have a point and click 1 shot death cannon is really strong and uncounterable to the squishes that rely on mobility. He's still the nasus of midlane you just need to farm him up and it's easier to do that now with the Q changes.

He's in a fine place imo a buff would put him over the top, just not quite in meta atm... He's a niche champ but the people who actually play him alot and play him often do really well with him. When the meta shifts again after worlds I think we might see him again.

TheDogIsOut1 votes

There's also the fact that being a teamfight control mage with low reliability, depending on teammates, has nothing to do with Veigar's theme.

Little solitary and insane Yordle that seeks vengeance would be the nice guy that helps in fight and needs his team to back him up? HELL NO. His old identity of being an absurd-burst mage that could handle his own (compensated by his long cooldowns and not a great lane, easily countered by items) and laughed at his target exploding was far more fitting.

lron IV Carry1 votes

[deleted]

4th3t0s1 votes

{quoted}

I feel like they could add something that happens to people who get caught inside of his E. Maybe add a slow to it while the cage is charging up, and once charged, suck everything to the middle of it. kind of like viktors gravity field. I would imagine this would make pulling off his combo easier and make it so you're not so reliant on landing the stun. I mean.. the ability is called Event Horizon.. and you can find them in the middle of black holes..and what do black holes do? they suck everything in.

Last time I checked, the event horizon is the visible edge surrounding black holes. Also, no, his e has always been borderline ultimate-tier, even with the delay, that much zone control is nuts on a basic ability, it's fine for what it offers.

lron IV Carry1 votes

[deleted]

Sasogwa3 votes

{quoted}

Tbh.. I never really paid attention during science, so I assumed that was where it was. =/ but anyway, I'm not saying add a stun to it after you get dragged in, it would just make it simpler for veig to combo instead of the enemy just dodging everything. As of right now, it's just way to simple to dodge his full combo. How bad would be getting dragged to the middle of it be if you're already caught in the cage? The people caught on the edge of it would stay stunned however. But if that would make it extremely OP, I'm sure just adding slow to middle wouldn't be that bad either. It could make it somewhat easier setting up the stun, or landing his W on the inside of it.

It could break Veigar support though.

UNLESS it's some sort of an attraction (like a gravity field, a black hole) towards the middle but scaling on ap, with low base attraction example : Enemy units/champions inside Event Horizon are pulled to the center with a movespeed of 10/20/30/40/50 + 20% AP (examples -> 300 AP at rank 5 = 110 movespeed ; 500 AP = 150 movespeed; 1000 AP = 250 movespeed) note : they can still move, but they are dragged in, if they walk towards the edge they're slower, if they walk towards the center they're faster. 2nd possibility : same idea but with a repulsive force that pushes them to the edge.

Which would also further emphasis his lategame scaling, which is still heavily countered by items.

But though I hate to say it, this could bring the need to nerf Veigar on sthg else to 'compensate' and god knows I don't trust Riot when it comes to compensations.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

It could break Veigar support though.

UNLESS it's some sort of an attraction (like a gravity field, a black hole) towards the middle but scaling on ap, with low base attraction example : Enemy units/champions inside Event Horizon are pulled to the center with a movespeed of 10/20/30/40/50 + 20% AP (examples -> 300 AP at rank 5 = 110 movespeed ; 500 AP = 150 movespeed; 1000 AP = 250 movespeed) note : they can still move, but they are dragged in, if they walk towards the edge they're slower, if they walk towards the center they're faster. 2nd possibility : same idea but with a repulsive force that pushes them to the edge.

Which would also further emphasis his lategame scaling, which is still heavily countered by items.

But though I hate to say it, this could bring the need to nerf Veigar on sthg else to 'compensate' and god knows I don't trust Riot when it comes to compensations.

Honestly as much as I'm not sure this is the sort of change Veigar needs or wants, I don't think you need to worry about breaking Veigar support anymore. Aside from reliable damage on an enemy mage (which is a niche anyway, not a "good every game" strength), he's honestly worthless as a support with a 0.75 second delay on his stun. I think it'd be exceptionally hard to buff Event Horizon to the point of making him worth taking as a support as long as it has the delay it has. People played him support because he was another Annie, but he's just not got that reason to play him anymore.

4th3t0s1 votes

{quoted}

Tbh.. I never really paid attention during science, so I assumed that was where it was. =/ but anyway, I'm not saying add a stun to it after you get dragged in, it would just make it simpler for veig to combo instead of the enemy just dodging everything. As of right now, it's just way to simple to dodge his full combo. How bad would be getting dragged to the middle of it be if you're already caught in the cage? The people caught on the edge of it would stay stunned however. But if that would make it extremely OP, I'm sure just adding slow to middle wouldn't be that bad either. It could make it somewhat easier setting up the stun, or landing his W on the inside of it.

If anything, slightly amplifying the radius of his w when targeted inside his stun could work, but even that is asking too much, considering the ap ratio and base damage that meteor offers.

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