IMO, Courage of the Colossus is fine as a mastery

DeusVult··78 votes·3,390 views

The reason that it gets so much hate is that Tanks and other users of the resolve tree have not had an effective keystone mastery since Riot nerfed the hell out of Grasp of the Undying.

The other trees have keystones that have always been good. But tanks haven't had a good mastery in a long time, and so CotC seems out of line simply because non-tank players aren't used to tanks having any power beyond what their kits give them.

57 Comments

Orangesilk25 votes

If it was somehow limited to tanks I'd be fine with it but:

Darius Renekton Riven Vi Hecarim

These are all damage-oriented champions abusing courage to become more survivable while still dishing out serious damage.

The fix is clear, reduce the base shield and increase the %HP shield scaling so it's more attractive for people building mostly defensive items, voila.

WoonStruck7 votes

You do realize that every single one of those (if they're good at least) build HP in pretty much every slot; maybe one or two full-damage slots....right?

Even higher MMR Rivens are doing HP+AD items, so she might get slightly less effect than a tank, but she'll still get a damn strong shield.

Wimbledofy4 votes

Yeah all of those champs except riven have hp on almost every item. Riven has hp on about 2 items.

XaviorZeroBlazer14 votes

does that critic really count for juggernauts like Darius ? but screw the rest especially Riven

DeusVult9 votes

I can see your point but other than Riven i dont really see whats really wrong with it.

Riven should be using fervor especially now that it gives AD instead of just increased on hit damage.

Darius same with darius, especially since his passive benefits from it, and its easy to stack while comboing.

But a bunch of the champs you listed run deep into the resolve tree so that they can be tanky enough to do their job, and most build a ton of bonus health.

Hecarim builds Triforce into full tank Vi builds warrior into full tank (maybe triforce) Renekton black cleaver into full tank Darius black cleaver into full tank

Champs like DrMundo Garen Illaoi Nasus Yorick would love to be able to run CotC as it fits their build and play patterns, but cannot because they lack hard CC.

Venomar2 votes

CotC on illaoi, I shutter.

bill841 votes

Yorick W actually counts as hard cc if he gets someone inside of it.

Melledoneus6 votes

It counts only if the W displaces someone.

Spoofghoul1 votes

This

and that makes it too unreliable

Troll for Trump1 votes

Then by that logic Darius abuses Stormraider's to make it easier to stack his passive.

Darius shouldn't be proccing Cotc at all.

But he doesn't really have a good keystone for him, besides the overnerfed Grasp. He can use other keystones, but none of them really slot on him as good as grasp.

B6WS TSW991 votes

Vi builds warrior into full tank (maybe triforce)

uh, no she builds sterak, maw, triforce a lot ( not just maybe)

agbudar1 votes

let it scale with BONUS hp problem solved in most cases

Blackstone011 votes

The problem you then get is it is extremely poor early game, and would need to heavily compensate in the numbers to be remotely viable, plus a lot of tanks, at least of the laning variety, NEED that extra boost to lane.

Spoofghoul2 votes

Thats easy to fix

improve the base shield value to something like 75 but make it flat and non scaling

that way there is an early shield to use, then make it 30 seconds at all ranks again for cooldown to further make it more useful early

Most beefy champs and the actual intended users start building hp right away They usually get items like item 3044 item 3751 item 3211 item 1011 item 3052 on their first or second back

Adjust bonus hp scaling accordingly Sure it might be weaker early but can be compensated with a stronger late game shield, this can be done in 2 ways, reduce lategame cooldown or amp up the % scaling or a bit of both

most beefy champs end up with about 3,5 to 4,5 k health now of which roughly average 2k bonus health if the scaling where doubled to 10% of bonus health it would be about as strong as it is now

Alternatively it could be 5% bonus health with a lowered cooldown like 15 seconds

there is still a third balance lever left, the shields duration but 4 seconds might be best.

If you are worried about champs like sion abusing it since almost all his hp is bonus health, don't be, it's not as good on Sion as it is on a lot of other tanks due to his success case being that he would simply apply too much cc for the shield to be effective, if you stun just 1 man with your cc you kinda fucked up, although sometimes you need to peel that 1 guy off your adc, and if you do hit multiple people the shield is useless since they can't hit it when they are stunned, this goes for all aoe cc tanks with decently lasting cc like zac and sejuani and sion.

Blackstone011 votes

Oh, I'm not remotely worried about CoC being strong lategame on tanks. Honestly of all the "strong" (as in taken a lot) keystones, I find it to be the most balanced. Tanks have needed a bone to be thrown at them in a keystone, since any time they felt decent with one, it got gutted.

Cosmic Warper1 votes

{quoted}

let it scale with BONUS hp problem solved in most cases

Most fighters build bonus hp for durability anyway... Cleaver and a visage is already a crap ton of health

Jeddy0171 votes

You do realize that none of those champs you listed aren't ADCs. All those champs builds a decent amount of Hp items, even Riven builds at least 1 or 2 hp items. Nerfing the base while increasing the scaling won't discourage them from using it.

bill843 votes

That's kind of the point of keystones though. If these champs build CoTC, they are not doing as much damage as they would if they are getting something else. They have another option for how to play the champ, which is the intended purpose of the new masteries. I remember a rioter saying that riven going CoTC was not a bad thing since she is giving up either sustained damage with fervor or burst with thunderlords.

Cosmic Warper1 votes

{quoted}

That's kind of the point of keystones though. If these champs build CoTC, they are not doing as much damage as they would if they are getting something else. They have another option for how to play the champ, which is the intended purpose of the new masteries. I remember a rioter saying that riven going CoTC was not a bad thing since she is giving up either sustained damage with fervor or burst with thunderlords.

except going CotC allows a fighter to not have to build as many defensive items. being able to build a BT/ death's dance over say, a DMP, or visage because you get tanky enough with CoTC far outweighs the damage loss from not taking fervor or t lords. Keystones aren't supposed to supplement weaknesses, they're supposed to enhance strengths. CotC enhances a tanks' role, but it makes fighter type champs busted because they get tanky earlier and spike harder as a result.

Elikain1 votes

I don't agree with a Darius example. Like, when does he ever get to pull 5 people for a super shield? That's his only CC by the way so if people let him get a 5 man Apprehend, he deserves the shield.

Vi is a Diver. She's actually split between a Diver and a Slayer. But her better builds dictate that she should get tanky. Don't see why she should not be allowed to dive with a shield, considering hers can't be up all the time. With CotC, it still isn't enough for her to spend most of her time shielded from damage.

Hecarim is a Diver, Slayer. Don't see the reason why he can't have the shield as well but i also understand that if he goes with a fighter build, his hard CC is enough to hit multiple people and get a massive shield, making him pseudo tanky, with a lot of damage and mobility.

Renekton is also a Diver, Slayer. Don't see the reason why he can't have the shield. The problem is the same as with Hecarim.

But i agree with your assessment. Make the shield scale more off Bonus HP (more defensive builds) than simply rewarding people more for hitting more enemies with hard CC. Without it, champions with hard CC AoE potential that are more mobile will always use the CotC better than slow tanks with the same abilities.

So, maybe it's better to completely remove the flat level scaling on the CotC and leave it strictly as a % max HP scaling, rewarding champions who opt into high health builds? I wouldn't really know, i didn't do the math on it and perhaps i should but in a few hours.

DeusVult1 votes

CotC doesn't proc off of how many enemies you hit with your CC, such as a five man Darius pull, but rather how many enemies are around the area that you CC'd.

TotalJerk1 votes

That wont help, bruisers build items like item 3071 item 3742 item 3748 item 3068 item 3065 item 3053 item 3078 item 3022. That would actually make the item worse on tanks as well since Riot has been attempting to make health a (mostly) bruiser stat and resistances a (mostly) tank stat.

Variks the Loyal21 votes

I can agree with this. Grasp and Bond are pretty lackluster compared not only to Colossus, but most masteries.

Crett3 votes

my issue with it is that the other two are pretty lame in comparison

i'd really prefer that grasp just healed and nothing else 8)

GULAG 4 U3 votes

nerf it and buff grasp and bond

problem solved

DeusVult9 votes

no, this is a solution that all mages/assassins/ADCs want. Nerf the only good tank mastery and buff the 2 useless ones marginally to compensate.

Aka you completely missed to purpose of the thread.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

I never said to nerf it into the grasp tier, I'm saying making all of them on the same so you have an actual choice, because right now you don't.

GrReaper961 votes

Well they kinda did already nerf it anyways

GULAG 4 U1 votes

It's still ridiculously strong lategame and garb in 1v1s

XeroKimo1 votes

There's no way that it is ridiculously strong for 1 v 1, you only get 5% of your max hp + 190 late game, as a tank or bruiser you normally have around 3.5k hp with resistances which gives it a 365 shield..... every 30 secs too, grasp would beat cotc without a doubt in 1 v 1's even in it's nerfed form because it can be proced multiple times assuming you're not trying to 1 v 1 a person with high DPS.

Grasp will still be the better solution for 1 v 1's cotc better for team fights, but grasp is definitely weaker than cotc in it's current form, a slight love tap would make it good again, maybe like reducing the time in combat needed to proc it from 4 secs to 3 secs

GULAG 4 U1 votes

I didn't say it was strong in 1v1.

XeroKimo1 votes

Well if you put a conjunction with the assumingly mispelt grab I will think that you mean strong late game AND grab in 1 v 1s

GULAG 4 U1 votes

It's garb isn't a typo. It's a short "garbage".

XeroKimo1 votes

I see thanks for clarifying

Cosmic Warper1 votes

{quoted}

no, this is a solution that all mages/assassins/ADCs want. Nerf the only good tank mastery and buff the 2 useless ones marginally to compensate.

Aka you completely missed to purpose of the thread.

Stop generalizing. I'm a mage/ assassin player and i think grasp is fine on tanks, yet busted on juggernauts and fighters.

SlaktarTasken3 votes

Only people complaining about CoC are butthurt COD ADCs' that can't fathom the fact that they might have to auto twise-thee times more to burn through it if they're too stubborn/dumb to swap target for a short moment, god forbid tanks actually do their jobs and don't melt as soon as an adc looks at them: Such extreme power, these busted tanks, much wow! But ADCs' gaining a 5 times the worth of stats/heals/shields from various support actives is just fine. It's league of ADCs' after all! How dears anyone forget that! You shall be reminded plebs!!!

Ofc, CoC is good, it's not overpowered at all barring a few outlier champion cases, these should be adressed individually instead of fucking the whole tank class over. It doesn't outclass neither thunderlords or warlords, it's just that the other apex masteries of the resolve tree suck.

Cosmic Warper1 votes

{quoted}

Only people complaining about CoC are butthurt COD ADCs' that can't fathom the fact that they might have to auto twise-thee times more to burn through it if they're too stubborn/dumb to swap target for a short moment, god forbid tanks actually do their jobs and don't melt as soon as an adc looks at them: Such extreme power, these busted tanks, much wow! But ADCs' gaining a 5 times the worth of stats/heals/shields from various support actives is just fine. It's league of ADCs' after all! How dears anyone forget that! You shall be reminded plebs!!!

Ofc, CoC is good, it's not overpowered at all barring a few outlier champion cases, these should be adressed individually instead of fucking the whole tank class over. It doesn't outclass neither thunderlords or warlords, it's just that the other apex masteries of the resolve tree suck.

A few cases? Vi Riven Darius Renekton Hecarim Skarner Trundle RekSai MonkeyKing XinZhao more than half of the fighter class lol

SlaktarTasken1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cosmic Warper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j2TJkeUZ,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-12-23T08:34:58.847+0000)

A few cases? Vi Riven Darius Renekton Hecarim Skarner Trundle RekSai MonkeyKing XinZhao more than half of the fighter class lol

CoC isn't a problem on even half of those, if they go for it they are giving up essential damage for survivability. The only 3 I'd call serious offenders are Riven, Hecarim and Vi. I don't see the issue in the others making good use of it, a Wukong for instance, who does not go offensively on his masteries, will deal such lackluster damage until mid-lategame game that he will be a non-issue during all of early game and even more succeptable against jungle ganks unless you get straight up outplayed, since it will also hurt his clear speeds.

It's called adapting, you take him out while he's weak and can't make use of CoC before he beefs up and takes you down with it, if you aren't willing to adapt you have no reason for complaining about him actually making use of it once he's finally finished a very expensive bruiser item: item 3071 and a tank item item 3143 / item 3742, before then it's essentially does nothing for him.

Xin sacrifices clear speed to go into the resolve tree and while it does help his survivability, just like Wu, he gives up essential damage for it. As for Darius, he always built tanky and he's just as succeptable to kiting with CoC as he was without it, he still needs to apply cc before getting the benefits of it while still being just as equall easy to kite as before. So while it does enchance his durability, which was always one of his strong points, it hardly covers up for any essential weaknessess.

I'm to lazy to go into the rest of them but the same arguments can be pretty much applied to those as well.

MonkeyMadness2 votes

It also directly opposes the damage creep, which whiny bitch yasuo players simply can't handle.

Cosmic Warper2 votes

{quoted}

It also directly opposes the damage creep, which whiny bitch yasuo players simply can't handle.

Not really. It only opposes the damage creep on tanks and fighters, and tanks already did well against burst damage. Fighters are now super durable without needing to build 3-4 tank items which is becoming a problem. Squishies getting blown up faster and faster is the real problem with damage creep, not tanks lacking the capacity to nullify the damage to themselves.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

It's harder to kill someone when they get a massive shield, hence it hurts the damage creep meta...

Surfer Ashe1 votes

Grasp nerfs should be reverted, to be honest

Cosmic Warper1 votes

I'm fine with tanks using it, but having most fighters with reliable cc use it makes the keystone busted because you can't balance it around both cases. there needs to be a way for tanks to activate it without allowing fighters and some juggernauts to do so as well.

General Esdeath 1 votes

Exactly. Assassins have thunderlords, adcs/brawlers have fervor and warlord's, supoorts have windspeakers, and tanks had a keystone only good for farming jungle, a lifesteal that scaled really bad, and a "I'll take the hit bro" for so long.

Ravore1 votes

grasp of the undying doesn't scale into late game that's why courage of the colossus seems so good but courage of the colossus is not that good early game because of the insane CD

Lovelle1 votes

Yet Riot will still nerf it with no compensation. God forbid tanks get a mastery that actually feels good to use.

Derfel1 votes

Except it's not tanks that are abusing the shit out of it.

badooga1 votes

I had an idea for how Grasp of the Undying and Bond of Stone could be changed:

Bond of Stone --> Stoneflesh

Stoneflesh: Each basic attack against the wielder of this mastery will give them extra armor and mr equal to half that, stacking up to 5 times (this decays after 4 seconds of not being attacked). After reaching 5 stacks, the stone surrounding you shatters, slowing nearby enemies for 1 second. The armor and mr then decays after leaving combat.

Grasp of the Undying:

Just buff it back up a bit. In the state it is now, it is literally worthless, as it barely healing anything. If it got a buff, it would probably be back up where it needs to be.

arc951 votes

CotC is way too busted on certain champions and strong on most of the tanks plus it is flat out the strongest keystone

I mean Vi is practically unkillable with it and her passive shield

imo Riot needs to get rid of Keystones they simply cant balance them

they never have been balanced and I doubt they ever will... with such a large champion pool things that buff certain effects and play styles so considerably are going to always create a glaring power discrepancy throughout the full pool and will more than likely always find ways to give unwanted power to champions that shouldn't use them(or excessive power to champions)

Fervor on tank assassins Original bloodlust on Tryn and Yasuo CotC on Vi League of Thunderlords Grasp on GP and Gnar Bond of Stone in the Jungle(specifically Rek & Grag) etc.

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