Garen deserves a large-scope rework

Big Lincoln··63 votes·17,575 views

He is beyond outdated, and arguably the worst Juggernaut, a class that has finally pulled itself out of the gutter this season but left Spin2Win in the dust. Garen has a number of issues that need to be addressed; some that have plagued him since release, and some that are a byproduct of the Juggernaut rework.

Since release, Garen has had one main issue; he is hyper-simple to a fault. There is very little depth in his kit, other than Qing slows and Wing hard CC. He has no variety in how he approaches fights, how he engages, how he makes a retreat -- it's all the same shit. Just Q and run, at or away. In a fight, he Qs you, Es you, rinse repeat, and his matchups all essentially boil down to whether or not the opponent can retaliate to his trades, or whether or not they're ranged.

Additionally, Garen has absolutely no niche, only fantasy. And a very vague one at that; spin2win is the core of Garen, but it's self-contradictory. It's an AOE damage spell, but you're incentivized to single out one person. The implication of his best fantasy being a situation where he gets his spin off on 5 people and destroys them is the exact opposite of what his intended character is; a pseudo-assassin anti carry. But he's not even particularly good at that; if you want that out of a juggernaut, Olaf fits the bill far better in almost every situation. 3/4 a second of tenacity and a single instance of slow-cleanse vs 7 seconds of complete CC immunity with ranged permaslows to assist his chasedown. The only one-ups Garen has is being manaless, and the Villain passive, which I'll get to.

So let's talk about what the Juggernaut update did. Overall, massive nerf. Riot completely trashed his early game and made him into a scaling champion, who doesn't scale nearly hard enough to really justify his piss weak laning phase, and added absolutely zero complexity to a champion sorely lacking in it. His silence was halved, his movespeed was nerfed, his E damage was backloaded into level scaling which forces you to wait before you come online. (As an aside, season 8 killed AD Garen with the rune changes, and tank Garen is now his most-- and maybe only- viable build.) Overall, a big splotch. And then, in return for all that, he gets the Villain passive, which is gimmicky and unrewarding while simultaneously being bullshit when you're the one marked by it. It's a very sloppy way to give Garen value from behind, when you'd probably be better off just picking a tank or almost any fighter if you expect to be losing early and wanting to scale up. Since then, Garen's gotten fairly significant buffs on two different occasions, and despite that, continues to be invisible in higher tiers of play and pro play. I would as go as far to say that no matter how much you buff Garen or add little tidbits to his kit, he will never be a pro viable champion, because his kit is too inflexible and too easy to exploit. Nocturne suffers the same issue, really; he's gotten nothing but buffs since season 4, and none of that stops him from fading out a few patches after coming back. And this is because Nocturne - and Garen - just have shit kits.

I don't blame Riot at all for not wanting to address Garen, because he's far too much of a staple of League to actually change drastically without getting some backlash, but he shouldn't be doomed to the current noob-trap starter champion he currently is. Luckily, I think his new lore gives us a direction to push him towards, even if it's only a little bit; we don't currently have an anti-mage juggernaut, so it gives him both a unique role in the game that he won't have to compete for, and compounds on his existing thematic as a foil to Lux. I wasn't really a fan of this the first time it was suggested to me, because of how a different anti-mage turned out Galio ahem, but I'm starting to come around to it, and might make a separate discussion for how I'd do it later.

tl;dr Giving Garen an annual buff or tack-on isn't going to keep him from sinking in 2018 League. Give him complexity, give him a niche, give him the gameplay update he deserves. And he deserves it at LEAST as much as any of the champions currently getting theirs.

130 Comments

Real Sexy Yoona38 votes

I feel like I want some champions to be as simple and straight-forward like Garen. It fits his personality and his identity as a Demacian who's naturally opposed to Magic. I'm a M7 Garen so it's not like I'm hating on the champion or intentionally trying to ignore him.

Q (charging and silence) = shows his courage charging into battle and the remove slow/silence shows the anti-magic/Demacian side of him. W (dmg reduction and tenacity) = strong dude and again, anti-magic. E = I don't know how this really ties in to his identity. R= Shows Demacian might and justice to those who oppose Demacia (villain). It's pretty dramatic and cool.

I'm not saying Demacian Champion = No CC/Magic/tricky Skill Champion. That's simply not true.

It's just that Garen is the most iconic Demacian in League of Legends and embodies the ideals of Demacia. He is the might of Demacia. While Noxus might use whatever means to win, not Demacia. Demacia fights with honor and dignity. Which is why I like how Garen is straightforward and doesn't use tricks to fight. (Doesn't mean a total lack of skill expression either, especially with the active part of his W) **Garen fights fair even if the fight is unfair for him. ** [garen-swing]

Rustling Bush3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Real Sexy Yoona,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j2MuJz1d,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-04-12T23:36:37.493+0000)

I feel like I want some champions to be as simple and straight-forward like Garen. It fits his personality and his identity as a Demacian who's naturally opposed to Magic. I'm a M7 Garen so it's not like I'm hating on the champion or intentionally trying to ignore him.

Q (charging and silence) = shows his courage charging into battle and the remove slow/silence shows the anti-magic/Demacian side of him. W (dmg reduction and tenacity) = strong dude and again, anti-magic. E = I don't know how this really ties in to his identity. R= Shows Demacian might and justice to those who oppose Demacia (villain). It's pretty dramatic and cool.

I'm not saying Demacian Champion = No CC/Magic/tricky Skill Champion. That's simply not true.

It's just that Garen is the most iconic Demacian in League of Legends and embodies the ideals of Demacia. He is the might of Demacia. While Noxus might use whatever means to win, not Demacia. Demacia fights with honor and dignity. Which is why I like how Garen is straightforward and doesn't use tricks to fight. (Doesn't mean a total lack of skill expression either, especially with the active part of his W) **Garen fights fair even if the fight is unfair for him. ** [garen-swing]

demacia hates magic? what about lux?

edit: nvm, when to the lux lore page and found this "Luxanna Crownguard is a powerful young light mage from Demacia, an insular realm where magical abilities are viewed with fear and suspicion."

Spice POWAH3 votes

Apparently there's some sort of secret magical society that serves the king or something.

I don't fully remember the lore, i read it when it came out

MetalGearTeemo2 votes

Still waiting for them to make the "Garen is Runeterra's most powerful wizard" DF garen meme actually lore true.

He strikes his enemies with a freaking orbital canon as his ult, I mean... come oooooon.

PokladnicaZla12 votes

Garen could use a WW scale rework tbh. Still beginner friendly,but with enough room for skill improvement.

DeathBurst4 votes

Yeah, +1 to that.

MetalGearTeemo2 votes

the problem is league immediately assumes characters with simple mechanics must be lower tier compared to the Dota model, where even simple playstyle heroes can remain tournament viable.

The idea of a lower grade learner champ is flawed at its core, since this just means new players will be trying to learn the game with inferior tools and will not find having to try and be effective vs characters with 2x to 3x the tools very fun.

Gewaltherrscher1 votes

What do you think about my thoughts/rework idea on garen that will possibly keep both of you and riot satisfied! https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/zFZ214Ur-a-garen-rework-that-satasfies-most-players-in-the-game

Here i will state the problems each group of players have with Garen and the solution:

Riotrepertoir stated that Garen is hard to balance:

(the things that would need to be done to make Garen a powerful option in pro (or even high skilled solo queue play) would likely mean he’s disgustingly powerful for most players.) https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2018/03/ask-riot-hard-to-balance-champs/

Garen: he stomps people in low elo// abilities -> binary /mobility is not even close to be as good as other meta toplaners gaping flaws->(kitable, has barely any CC)

There are 3 parties when it comes to Garen. Group 1 to 3

1.) Riot wants to keep Garen as a champ for beginners 2.) People that get stomped in lane by Garen mains are in bronze/silver 3.) Garen mains that play him in high elo that get beaten up in their lanes because of the reasons above

Now this is how it should be: To satisfy all 3 groups Garen needs changes to his kit that keep him a basic champion with abilities that allow players with a higher skill ceilling to outplay his opponent.

Possible Solution to satisfy all 3 Groups:

1.) Keep the general frame of his kit Q/W/E/R how it is 2.)Take away the unreliable (RNG) Villian mechanic that destroys people in low elo/ and add CC to his R so Garen becomes usefull in teamfights 3.) add something to his kit that rewards skillfull players and punishes if the player misses the play*

*Here is the solution or my thoughts : If Garen activates his Q and reaches a certain distance to his Q target, he can leap forward by pressing Q for a 2nd time then he deals bonus damage on hit. IF Garen does not connect then his Q cooldown extends by 4 seconds or X amount of time needs PBE testing! To compensate the removal of the villian mechanic that is an unreliable (RNG) and unfun mechanic his NEW R draws people in X distance of sucessfull execution of the enemy towards the impact area of his ult and slows them for X amount of time.

Spoo1 votes

Let 'Spin' reflect or deflect projectiles.

Even if he can't get in, he can at least provide some utility while he's busy being kited anyway. (Of course URF Garen woudl be unstoppable unless you fix the perma 'Spin'.)

From this he has something relatively simple counterplay and teamwork, and you can tweak his numbers down if need be to make up for this ability.

He's still susceptible to point & click, melee CC or anything when its down.

Simply put his weakness is his 'Spin' downtime anyway, he's already easily kiteable, at least this provides some relief if not a fun mechanic.

Khristophoros11 votes

I feel like overall Garen is just weak. Other champs with very simple kits manage to see top tier / pro play. Garen never has because he's never actually been strong. I mean, there are moments that make him feel very strong to both the user and the enemy, like if he catches you and kills you, yeah that feels pretty strong. But in terms of utility and reliability, he is weak as fuck.

Garen is unreliable for 2 basic reasons. 1) If you avoid his spin he is no longer threatening until the CD comes back up. 2) After he manages to kill somebody he has is no longer threatening because he depends so much on his ult and it doesn't refresh. Compare him to Darius. Darius does not have those problems. Instead he gets more threatening after he gets a kill, and avoiding any one of his abilities does not stop him because all of his skills and autos apply his passive. He doesn't stop being threatening until he's dead. That's how a juggernaut needs to be, but Garen is the opposite. He might as well not be labeled as a juggernaut as is.

His ult is the worst thing about his kit. It feels strong in the moment when it works, and he makes him threatening in lane and 1v1 scenarios but if you look at the overall impact it gives him on a match it's actually very weak. There are tons of ults in the game that are just as good for killing an enemy champ except those ults are often AoE or have some other feature that makes them far better than Garen's ult.

Honestly though, I think all he needs is some method of ramping up his threat level rather than blowing it and becoming a useless brick. This could be achieved without a full rework.

Big Lincoln6 votes

Other champs with very simple kits manage to see top tier / pro play.

Because those kits are still nuanced and have depth. Garen has nothing. No range, no poke, and mediocre damage. There is no champion in the game as completely inflexible as Garen. Even one-trick pony champions like Zoe or Annie are heaps more nuanced than Garen. This is the problem; he has a trash kit, and needs to be revamped.

JusticePauldrons4 votes

I wouldn't say his kit is trash in the least, it serves a dedicated function well, but just isn't flexible like other champions. The bstthe guy can do is charge at you, and while I don't think that is a bad thing, it could use more elements besides a simple speedboost to make that viable. Olaf becomes unstoppable for example, Sion enters train mode, what Garen needs is a reliable initiation tool to allows him to get into those moments without burning flash and let the rest of his kit do the work.

50000000000000001 votes

Gapclosing is one issue, but his E is too reliable. This means once gapclosing is done, it doesn't matter if the player is a challenger or bronze, the E will do the same thing. Compare this to other melee range abilities like Darius Q (can be avoided, and has delay), Poppy Q (must be aimed to a minor degree, has delay), etc. Riot added the armor shred a while back, but I think the skill cap is still very low, so it becomes difficult to add power to his kit.

JusticePauldrons3 votes

This is actually an issue I enjoy being brought up. Because while on paper, Garen's E does have fantastic damage meaning a gapcloser or CC ability would make it too powerful right? Well that would be true if you didn't factor in the fact that it takes a full three seconds of sustained combat do actually do that damage. During that time you could hit him with CC of your own to either Kite him or stop him in his tracks, move to the safety of a turret/ally, or simply use one of the other ten million dash abilities in the game to escape.

Compare that to a Darius Q for example, which lets off its full damage instantly as well as healing him by a truckload of hp and applying another bleed stack and you will see why this is an unfair comparison. The same goes for Poppy's Q which despite having a delay on the damage (of only one second) that damage is practically guaranteed due to the slow and even if the second chunk does miss a large amount of that damage is %hp and upfront.

But for Garen the guy has no choice but to charge at enemies and all in them for the entirety of his combo for a full three seconds or have inefficient trades. So why not double down on that premise by allowing him to do his one niche well and give him some options for a teamfight?

Your other examples have many tools at their disposal to insure their trades are favorable, and in the situation they are not, have options to stay in the fight when those main damaging abilities are circumvented. Garen does not, he does not have any form of hard crowd control to initiate or disrupt a fight, just a main source of damage so easily countered I cannot really call it "reliable" by any means.

sAyCo9 votes

i have said that before but they downvoted me.

#Feelsbad

Critmaster Garen8 votes

it would help if the villain mechanic that takes up a giant portion of his power budget would work properly, and not land on the wrong target as many times as it does.

i dont even think he needs an absolutely massive rework, that even changes his spin mechanic, or most of the rest of his kit. but he does need a couple of changes and new mechanics layered on his existing kit to make him work better.

he needs changes similar to Warwick that keep his kit the same at its basis, but make it more consistent and adds a bit of depth.

riot has a choice to make.

a) do they want to commit to the villain mechanic? if yes, then it needs improvements.

b) or do they want to drop the concept and change his strategic niche again?

either is fine for me, but i wish theyd do something and finally put some work into him. the villain passive needed serious work since it was added in season 5. its now almost 3 years later.

DeathBurst1 votes

I'm not sure the Villain passive takes such a huge part of his budget. It's more a gimmick added for flavor and thematics, but in terms of power-budget, I think it's quite cheap. And it doesn't define Garen strategic niche, sure as hell. No one ever picked Garen thinking "yeah, the Villain passive will be a perfect fit for this game".

Would you say that Corky big Valkyries eat a huge part of his budget and defines his strategic niche? I wouldn't, and I think it's a comparable gimmick. You pick Corky for the sustained magic damage and the long range poke, not for his big Valkyries, but the big Valkyries are a nice bit of flavor to make you feel like a daring bombardier.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure the Villain passive takes such a huge part of his budget.

ever noticed how you rarely can ever fight someone on garen, unless youre obscenely fed?

but then you see someone with the mark on his head and think "ok, hes the villain. i can fight him".

yea, it does take up a large portion of his power budget. whats more is, that the villain mark is the only time when garens auto attacks are threatening, and he deals noticable sustained damage, because of the extra 1% max health true damage on auto attacks. when garen is fighting the villain, its the only time you feel like a juggernaut.

CrazFight 7 votes

I don't really mind garen. IMO garen doesn't have to be top tier, he doesn't really even need to be a that amazing of a champ. I think he is supposed to remain a simple champ, simple mechanics.

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/5f/5f0b920a314321b78f1778eb0a601a38d7700391dbf5d265ef02b3f8d34925db.jpg

Arakadia4 votes

Garen is so binary right now they he not only feels unfair for when he is successful but he isn't allowed to be strong without being cancer.

He can remain a simple champion with simple mechanics but he cannot remain in his current state.

CrazFight 2 votes

{quoted}

Garen is so binary right now they he not only feels unfair for when he is successful but he isn't allowed to be strong without being cancer.

He can remain a simple champion with simple mechanics but he cannot remain in his current state.

He shouldn't be strong tho, due to his simplicity.

Arakadia5 votes

I don't think Garen should be strong until he gets significant changes. I agree with you on that.

However I don't think being simple is the problem. Ashe is simple, yet a generally healthy design. Garen is simple, but what makes him problematic is his binary design.

Either he is able to get within range of you (maybe your melee and had no choice) and than he drops all his targeted damage on you while your silenced. Or he is not able to get within range of you and does literally nothing because the way his kit is.

There is very little inbetween for Garen which is why he needs some variance. If you design Garen with the ability to fail partially, than he can also partially win. For example, Illaoi may get kited, but at least she can pull out your spirit to retaliate. This lets her do something to the enemy while still being most effective in melee range. Garen cannot do anything to you if he cannot get in melee range, and if he does get in melee range he is pretty strong.

ZackTheWaffleMan3 votes

Garen ADC item 3031 item 3031

Critmaster Garen6 votes

its like garen is stuck in a limbo between skirmisher and juggernaut.

half of his kit is designed around hit and run playstile with out of combat regeneration, short range, and extremely defined windows of strength and weakness between spin cooldowns. you want to go in, fight for 3 to 4 seconds, and then disengage until your cooldowns are back up. its almost the same way Riven Renekton etc. fight.

but on the other hand he lacks the same mobility to dive in and out of combat like an actual skirmisher, and he has frontloaded denfense instead.

this often leads to a situation, where when he cant kill his intended target in the first rotation of his abilities, hes just sitting there in melee range of a stronger fighter or carry like an idiot and tries to damage them with auto attacks, while his opponent just heals up with lifesteal while dealing more damage to him, or they disengage and kill garen from range.

maybe if riot fully commited to the idea, it might be possible to make him a mix between skirmisher and juggernaut. but the way his kit is currently put together, it just doesnt work very well.

its basically this scenario in almost every teamfight. Garen gets on top of the enemy adc (or some other carry) who is the villain. the adc gets shielded by item 3190 or his support, or he gets hit by summoner 3 or something similar that simply absorbs his spin damage. he now has shit left to fight with and 2 seconds left on his w. he cant disengage either, because he doesnt have the mobility to do so. he dies to the marksman before his cooldowns are back up.

for me, the dream would be if they also fully embraced his crit scaling. its very unique for a juggernaut to have crit scaling in his kit, and something that could at least in his item builds set him apart from the rest of the bunch.

his ideal item build should be something like this item 3031 item 3071 item 1001 item 3053 item 3065 item 3742

ToBeSomebody6 votes

Garen does not need a rework.

Garen is one of the most versatile champions in League, due in part to the simplicity of his kit.

I abused this versatility to rise from P5-D5 in only 30 games, 27 of which were Garen, all of which were wins. I can't attribute that solely to Garen's gameplay, but my ability to adapt my playstyle build to every game that I was in made it much easier. He is in a good place, but he won't see a lot of play because most players prefer the flashy style of other champions, or the 1v5 potential of other juggernauts like Darius or Illaoi.

Given my experience, I would recommend only 3 changes for Garen:

Q - Scale this ability's animation speed with attack speed and/or level. As it stands now, Garen is essentially punished for building any high amounts of attack speed by the necessity of using the silence on his Q. It's an auto-attack reset that has a pretty set attack animation, one that is actually very easy to counterplay from champions such as Fiora or Riven who can use an ability to avoid the damage completely. As a trade-off, you can scale the silence duration by .1 per level and reduce it to 1.1 second at level 1.

E - Allow this ability to be cancelled after .1 (maybe .25) seconds. Again, using this ability can sometimes be seen as too punishing. Yes, this is Garen's main damage ability, but in regards to both the refund of time left and last hitting minions, this is an incredibly wonky ability. Being locked into the animation for a full second can be a pain when trying to damage minions just enough to last hit under tower -- or when you want to cast your ultimate immediately after, only to have that silence wear off and the enemy flash away.

R - Reduce the ability to flash/dash away. It's a pretty consistent feature that players can avoid the execute simply by flashing at the right time, despite almost all of Garen's animation going through. Possibly increase the animation speed, or make it unavoidable once cast (much like Lee Sin R).

Variable Æ5 votes

One of the most noteworthy things is probably that Garen is one of only two melee juggernauts whose kit has no in-combat healing, the other being Shyvana.

The difference is Shyvana is a jungler that does well with on-hits, so she can get by on jungle item sustain, whereas Garen jungle is largely a gimmick due to his kit not being built to jungle at all, so he's more or less forced to lane.

He's probably the worst juggernaut for winning a sustained fight, but he IS good-ish at gradually gaining an advantage across multiple trades. Like a skirmisher.

Therein lies the problem. Garen's supposed to be a juggernaut but is more of a skirmisher than anything else.

2nd Chance5 votes

If this does pick up steam and gets Rioters asking for discussions, I would very much love to participate with Riot in Garen rework designs, cuz I got quite a bit of experience with Garen (cough I'm a Garen main who made it to diamond season 5, played him since season 3 with over 500k mastery points and over 2k+ Garen games between the PBE account I had and this main live account cough )

I'll also add to this current discussion some of the biggest gripes I currently have -

  1. I wish his W had more scaling and not just cap off at a certain point, it just makes the kinda bland W of his all the more subpar and uninteresting (which to be fair was made more interesting with the starting 0.75 second tenacity/damage reduction addition)
  2. I hate how gimmicky and power loaded his justice system is, causing the rest of his kit to be weaker due to that power management
  3. With his Q silence nerf (which is his only CC, and isn't even considered a hard CC) and the amount of CC other juggernauts have, Garen feels sorely out of place compared to them lacking such tools
  4. With Atma's being removed, Yasuo existing ruining any tank crit build options and the only crit items left make him too squishy or just don't synergize with him at all (all the zeal build path items and especially essence reaver), crit just feels useless as heck on him (well unless it's URF) and also takes power management on his kit he really can't even use

Also this is just another thing - Every 'fun' build gets ruined by other champions abusing the item better, which in turn get the item nerfed/reworked and thereby also nerfing Garen and gating his already limited item pool

Ex. - DFG / Abyssal Mask (made his ult stronger, the latter even giving him great stats to use) and Zz'rot/Banner (Helped him split)

There's other things I can go on and on about as well (like how cruddy it is to Q then immediately get slowed by someone), but I don't want to get caught doing a monologue to myself only, so I'll save that for a later point

CapeOfSuns5 votes

He was fine before the juggernaut rework. But he's great now, too! Excellent Garen strengths :

  • The enemy jungler won't gank you as he rather expects Garen to trip over and destroy his own nexus.
  • Your jungler won't gank for you unless he could basically gank for minions. So he ganks for people who might carry the game!
  • He's never banned, and pick order doesn't bother a Garen main as if somebody actually bothers to counterpick him they're likely a colossal scrub.
  • Playing Garen teaches you how to play a losing lane, as he loses all of them.
  • You don't have the usual toplane illusion that you impact the game in any way, less disappointing to watch your 0/20 bot lane!
  • Then again you might as well roam because that's the most likely way to impact the game. Just walk bot from topside, not many people expect something so desperate.
  • You don't make the mistake of losing a duel/1v2 when splitpushing, since you can always be sure you'd lose.
  • His run-away trolling ability is quite good and his dirty laugh is very proper for such gameplay.
  • The enemy Ashe drain tanking your full build ass melee range when she's the villain doesn't feel unfair, as you have watched far better champions get demolished by ADC's anyway.
  • While other bruisers hate CC, you're rather grateful someone felt necessary to waste CC on you, almost like you're a threat. CC that could have been used on your 0/5 Yassou! Fools!
  • While other reworks have aimed to make the champion unappealing to it's mains and instead tooled them for other people, Garen was tooled to be a disappointment to everybody.
  • Whenever Garen is involved in a teamfight, you can always see a lot of damage done.
  • Splitpushers like Tryndamere get frustrated because their team gets aced while they're killing two people in the side lanes and taking towers. Garen doesn't really care because if your team wasn't gonna carry, neither were you.
  • You never have to hear "How can you lose to x as Garen?". Nobody says that.
  • You gather a lot of honor because Garen sheanigans are fun to watch and relieve the stress of having to carry.
  • Having 25% armor shred after you've done your damage is great as it allows the ADC, Khafix or whatever in your team to take the kills and carry.
  • You don't ever have to defend your build to soloq wiseasses. Nobody cares.
  • You have so much fun when you succeed doing Garen things, little as they help in winning the game. Nobody can ever call you out on tryharding.
Glory974 votes

Garen has never been viable for any type of higher elo. But in bronze/silver/unranked he still is as viable as ever. We have to consider that the majority of players are bronze/silver/unranked. I know quite a few people, who just love this champion, some even main garen. And I used to play garen aswell when i was unranked.

Yes garen is too weak from the perspective of any experienced player, but no he shouldn't be reworked. Does every single champion have to viable in gold/plat and above? Isn't it ok to have one champion with an extremly simple kit?

For the sake of the players that enjoy playing garen in low elo, that just want to have fun at the game and don't spend hours and hours at playing league to get good at complicated champions.

Thee Pie Man2 votes

I don't know, wasn't League's initial lore reason for people coming together was to stop wars/make amends on the fields of justice- to fight for the sides you believe in with lack of causalities and the like?

I feel like over the years if a character doesn't develop further they aren't really playing into that and are more "timelocked" rather than actually fighting, gaining experience etc. I think all champions should be able to be played because it gives more diversity in games. I like uniqueness but I want to be able to play a champion I've liked for a long time without feeling overwhelmed at how outclassed he is, even against other juggernauts at times.

DarwinTheory3 votes

{quoted}

Garen has never been viable for any type of higher elo. But in bronze/silver/unranked he still is as viable as ever. We have to consider that the majority of players are bronze/silver/unranked. I know quite a few people, who just love this champion, some even main garen. And I used to play garen aswell when i was unranked.

Yes garen is too weak from the perspective of any experienced player, but no he shouldn't be reworked. Does every single champion have to viable in gold/plat and above? Isn't it ok to have one champion with an extremly simple kit?

For the sake of the players that enjoy playing garen in low elo, that just want to have fun at the game and don't spend hours and hours at playing league to get good at complicated champions.

I agree with you that Garen needs to remain simple.

But you're 100% incorrect that he shouldn't be high elo capable. He WAS high elo capable before the fucktard juggernaut update RIOT did gutting everything that made him good. This was the same RIOT that was initially going to also make his E SLOW him down when it connected with an enemy before the players went nuts.

Back then before juggernaut there was high elo Garen players like Marine Revenge using crit and Atmas (anyone remember that?) builds to b viable.

I'm trying not to tilt over this subject I really am but the silence and sheer stupidity of RIOT on this subject annoys me so much. They changed him drastically shifting his power to late game then 12 months later reworked LOL into a 20 minute stomp clown fiesta for fucks sake!!!!!! If these people worked for Ford they'd design and sell a petrol car knowing 12 months later all petrol would be taken off the market. My 6 year old nephew could think more proactively. They don't give a toss about their customers constantly messing them about and it really pisses me off!!!!!!!

Terozu4 votes

He's a good counter pick against other Juggernauts actually. His Q lets him shrug off apprehend and turn the fight around, it momentarily denies Illaoi her ult damage when her ult is time sensitve, etc.

Course Crit Garen's E make's Zoe's Q look like a joke damage wise.

Yaśuo Main1 votes

Maybe crit garen a while ago would, Zoe's unnerfed Q E combo shuns pretty much everything in the game when it comes to damage in a short time frame other than Old rengar

Arakadia1 votes

Zoe's E Q combo was nerfed.

Terozu1 votes

Zoe's unnerfed Q E combo s

Lol

Arakadia1 votes

Are you argueing that it wasn't nerfed orr?

Terozu2 votes

Arakadia go home. You're clearly drunk and or tired. He said her unnerfed combo. And you chimed in saying it was nerfed. XD

DeathBurst3 votes

Hum, I'm sorry, but no, Juggernauts are the class Garen suffers the MOST against. Juggernauts are all basically too tanky for him to burst them in one rotation, and all other Juggernauts have in-combat sustain, when Garen only has out-of-combat regen, so other Juggernauts can regen in between Garen's rotations and Garen loses in the end.

Tanks don't have the damage to kill him, and other damage-dealing classes are squishy enough that he can burst them, but other Juggernauts are the worst.

JustaNewb3 votes

Respect Garen. Some of his accomplishments:

  • He is actually the reason we have "unique" item abilities at all.
  • He invented a whole class of champions.
  • He is the primary reason THREE ITEMS were simply removed from the game.
  • He was the first champion to have a non-direct skill that could crit.
  • Teemo is still scared of him.

All of that said, a fun bit of nostalgia... as much as I hate to agree with the idea that he deserves a rework, I only hate it because Garen had been Garen for me for almost a decade.

He does, however, deserve a rework. His kit is so basic that he has been left far far behind mechanically.

I Main Swain2 votes

personally, i feel like the 450 champs SHOULD be new player friendly, hyper simple champs. i dont like the idea of making them more complex and in general i think its healthy to have champions that require little effort or understanding to play. i would be fine with a rework to give him more potential if they keep him simple but i think theres more than enough complexity in league

Seer of Mind2 votes

Making 450 champs simple provides no benefit to new players, think about it: If new players only play simple champs, they have no general idea about stats, counters, ect.

I Main Swain3 votes

{quoted}

Making 450 champs simple provides no benefit to new players, think about it: If new players only play simple champs, they have no general idea about stats, counters, ect.

thats not necessarily true. its kind of a set of training wheels so they can learn the game with a champion that isnt too hard to utilize properly. its not that they should only play simple champs, its that they should be able to use them as a sort of step in the ladder of truly learning how to play league. they shouldnt have to be thrown into a sea of complexity with no crutch to cling onto right out of the gate

nergalsfang2 votes

its about learning fundamentals.

Seer of Mind1 votes

I know that I'm not known around here, nor will this be anything to look at that's important, but give me a chance?

I'll be honest, Garen has some poke, with his q but that's about it, charge in and either engage or run. That ability is so lackluster its not even funny, sure charging into battle shows into his character, but that's not the point here, Garen's title is "The Might of Demacia" why not show it a bit more? Not like how Darius is, but a bit more.. subtle. His E really only serves players for farming and single target damage, but provides nothing, only single target dps. Garen's W is fine to me, but maybe less armor and more magic resist? His passive, oh his passive makes me mad, its annoying to deal with when you're against him, its basically a free Warmog's Armor at level 11, basically not giving his enemy laner a chance to fight him when he backs off to regen.

Then again im just a lowly noob, what do I know

Romans VI XXIII3 votes

by lvl 11 laning is over just FYI, he really has no passive till lvl 11 as well. compared to any-other HP regen passive Garens is very lack luster till lvl 11 then OP as fuck

DeathBurst1 votes

tl;dr: Garen has enough real issues, let's not add a ton of imaginary ones on top of it, if we want to have a constructive discussion about his future...


And yet, Garen is still the champ with which I have my best performances, after 2 seasons trying to branch out. Surprising for such a bad champ, isn't it? ...

Personal bias aside, I agree with a lot of what you say, and I'm sad to find that you exaggerate some of your claims. The exaggerated parts only weaken the rest of your speech. So let's sort things out...

  1. Yes, Garen is probably the worst Juggernaut, and mostly for one simple reason: he has no in-combat sustain.
  • Yes, Garen is probably lacking depth, but No, that's not as much of an issue as you make it sound. You can't outplay people with Garen, but that doesn't mean you can't win games. And it's important to note that his skill floor MUST be preserved close to its current level, this is not negotiable. I'd be the first one delighted if his skill ceiling was raised, but Garen is a free, noob-friendly champ, and he must remains so, because noobs DO need noob-friendly champs.
  • All match-ups "basically boil down to whether or not the opponent can retaliate to your trades", for ALL champs, not just Garen. Even if you take a skill match-up between 2 very complex champs, it still boils down to how you can deal damage to them without them dealing damage to you. That's not a useful claim to make, even if it's technically true. And it's misleading, most melee match-up are still interesting to play as Garen, and you can punish your opponents if they misplay, even if the match-up is theoretically in their favor.
  • Garen has a niche. He's a good splitpusher, especially for a Juggernaut, a class that normally lacks the mobility to make cross-map plays. He's at least as good at that job as Yorick, and no one complains about Yorick lacking a niche. He's also very hard to shut-down and a good champ to play from behind, with very consistent output, and very self-sufficient, so it lets the Jungler focus on the other lanes.
  • The comparison with Olaf is, again, very misleading even if technically true. Garen's burst capability over 2 seconds is much much higher than Olaf's, so the fact that Olaf can chase better isn't really relevant. You're also comparing a basic ability with an ultimate, so of course the ultimate wins, but yeah, Garen's ultimate is for Burst, not Chase.
  • The Juggernaut update was not a nerf. It was a rework, and it changed the identity of the champ somewhat, as all reworks do. And maybe you don't like the new version, but it's NOT objectively worse. And the Villain passive, despite all its issues, does add complexity to the champ. No the right play isn't always "go for the squishy" or "go for the Villain", that's simply not true.
  • Nu-Garen does scale MUCH better than the old one. Much better than a ton of fighters, and he is much easier to recover from an early loss, or to play in a losing lane. Try doing something on a Camille, Riven, Renekton, etc. after losing your lane. Damn hard. Garen always provides a decent baseline, even if he's 0 and 5. And with his innate durability, he shouldn't be 0-5 in the first place, when someone like Camille can totally anti-snowball.
  • Yes, Tank Garen is his most viable build. But that is not a problem per se. At worst, a symptom of another problem, but not a problem in and of itself. Tons of champions have only a single viable build and are not considered bad. (Not to mention that even with only Tank Garen, there are a lot of subtleties, it's more a family of builds than a single unified build.)
  • Yes Garen isn't played in pro, and most probably never will. Even after an hypothetical successful rework. That's not an issue, Garen is a beginner champ, and working as intended. You can't have all 140+ champs viable in pro-play.
  • As for high-MMR SoloQ, there are a couple of Garen players in Master, but yeah, I agree the situation isn't perfect. That's probably the biggest thing that could be improved in a future rework. Does he "deserve" a rework because of that? Yeah, probably. But is that a pressing issue? I don't think so. And there are a reasonable number of Garen players up to Diamond, so he's definitely NOT a "noob-trap".

As a side-note, I'm not entirely convinced by anti-mage Garen. What I like in the current version is two-fold: 1. The interesting melee-VS-melee match-up in early laning; 2. A simple-to-play champ that lets me focus on the strategy and macro decision making to carry games. An anti-mage Garen would run against point 1, and wouldn't really support point 2 either.

Big Lincoln5 votes

Surprising for such a bad champ, isn't it? ...

Not really; there's a small handful of Garen players in Masters. Being good at the champion and knowing your limits can take you pretty far with him if you're fundamentally good. Same for any champion; Urgot and Galio had high elo players and they were laughingstocks before their updates.

Yes, Garen is probably the worst Juggernaut, and mostly for one simple reason: he has no in-combat sustain.

Lack of combat healing and his heavy reliance on his cooldowns are what make him a poor Juggernaut. Most of them either aren't confined to annoying cooldowns and weak autos once they get rolling (e.g Illaoi) or are dedicated to auto attacking anyway. Garen plays more like a skirmisher taking short fights because he'll outright lose to any fighter in a duel on even terms. This is something I'd like to see change as well; give him combat patterns that are more fitting to the group of champions he belongs to, or reclassify him so he can fit in better somewhere else.

I'd be the first one delighted if his skill ceiling was raised,

This is really all I'm interested in. Garen is too inflexible to want to improve with unless you really like Garen. You're not really improving at the champion more than you are improving at playing the game with his constraints in mind.

All match-ups "basically boil down to whether or not the opponent can retaliate to your trades", f

The difference is most champions have some wiggle room in tough match-ups, they've got juke tools and poke to farm at least a little safely, etc. Garen's only option is to sit back and try his best to gather CS and soak XP or hope his jungler has a heart. I think he's one of few champions who can be legitimately hard countered in League, still. (Illaoi has them too; juggernauts don't live on easy mode)

He's a good splitpusher

Definitely not as good as Yorick. If I wanted to pick for splitpushing, I'd pick Yorick (well, I wouldn't), or Illaoi, or Nasus. Garen's one-up on them is being harder to lock down, but he's slower than all of them at reaching the tower, and unless he's gone off-build with Triforce he'll take longer destroying the tower too. Garen plays as a splitpusher because he's just not good in teamfights unless he's really fed. He's like an annoying gnat - the Singed of juggernauts, always being a pest somewhere on the map and making it as hard to catch him as he can.

"noob-trap".

I wouldn't consider those players to be noobs. I call Garen a noob trap because he does a poor job of showing a player how to play the game. If I were showing friends how to play top lane for the first time I'd always recommend them Nasus over Garen, because Nasus will teach you a hell of a lot more about the fundamentals. Garen really only gets away with his low elo reputation because they're absolutely clueless when it comes to knowing how to punish him.

As a side-note, I'm not entirely convinced by anti-mage Garen

I don't think he needs to give up too much of what he is right now for this to be pressed into his kit. What it would do, though, is give him more noticeable power compared to the tack-ons he's gotten before (E shred is hard to appreciate because no VFX/SFX accompanies it, Villain is finicky and nobody likes dealing with it or being limited by it), while also giving him a role that other champs don't fill, opening him up to players who might want him as a pocket pick for the right situations and giving him a clearer best-case pick, because current Garen is a champ you'd only play if you liked him (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but why not make him the best he can be?). I don't think it should become all he has going for him, but I don't believe Riot will ever encourage crit Garen's return to go with his natural scaling curve they put on him post-jugg patch.

to sum up;

  • I want a better Garen
  • Any niche will do as long as it's his alone
  • Garen should be more like Warwick in being beginner friendly who offers you a lot of opportunity for skill expression that isn't limited to good macro, which should be a universal skill
Carnicore1 votes

This is a tricky one because Riot really wants Garen to be the definitive beginner champion. It's his identity. He's in the most balanced state he's ever been, his spells feel really good to use, and Riot doesn't really want to mess around with that.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

This is a tricky one because Riot really wants Garen to be the definitive beginner champion. It's his identity.

then make it Nasus

he has all the qualifications for being the entry level juggernaut. the same qualifications that garen has.

  • he has an insanely low skill floor
  • he incentivises you to learn the value of csing
  • he has decent lane sustain, so he can be less punishing to play at low mmr
  • as one of the best split pushers, he teaches you to prioritise objectives

why should garen be gimped because riot wants to pidgeonhole him into a beginner champion, when there are other simple champions out there who can take that role without their skill ceiling being held back because they want to keep a low skill floor on the champion?

thats the next thing. skill floor and skill cap are two different things. a champion can be incredibly easy to pick up and still be hard to master, while being very effective when mastered.

its what they went for and accomplished very well with the Warwick rework.

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