Small changes that could make Nasus great

Sasogwa··45 votes·3,267 views

Right now, thanks to LW/BC nerfs Nasus is in a spot I actually like better than before. While definitely not on the strong side, 47.9% WR according to champion.gg, 49% according to league of graphs, 47.2% according to lolmasters [random results i got by typing Nasus winrate on google :p], Nasus is not getting melted as easily as before late game. He no longer badly falls off lategame, but isn't incredible either.

I suggest very small changes that would contribute at better installing Nasus at this role of lategame ticking time bomb (without making him overbearing ofc).

First off, I think the E armor shred should be reworked from flat to percentage. Nasus is a juggernaught and needs to deal with heavy frontlines, he's not supposed to be a diver.

I suggest 12/16/20/24/28% armor shred (i thought about 10/15/20/25/30 but looking at the figures it seemed a tiny bit too high lategame and too low early) Since it is currently 20/25/30/35/40 flat armor shred, it gets better than old scaling against ennemies with 167/156/150/146/143 armor. It actually makes him weaker against carries (against which he was damage-wise surprinsingly good, but since he was so hard kited it didn't make sense), but gives him a good tool to deal with other juggernaughts and tanks, that he is actually facing in teamfights.

Then, well, long gone the time where Nasus had a 35 to 95% attack speed slow and was THE anti-carry by definition. I don't want to go back to those extreme values. But I believe a very small buff to his attack speed slow would help out his identity and maybe make opponents more aware of the interest of buying item 3139 item 3222 /using summoner 1 , or watch their positioning more carefully (especially knowing Nasus wither range is lower than it used to be (600 range, used to be 700 range or 800 if ulted) so it does give more agency, especially to some adc's that have a higher autoattack range than Nasus wither range. It defines Nasus more clearly as a carry crippler.

The current values of Nasus slow are 17.5% to 23.5/29.5/35.5/41.5/47.5% (average of 20.5/23.5/26.5/29.5/32.5 %) I suggest 20% to 30/37.5/45/52.5/60% (average of 25/28.75/32.5/36.25/40 %)

It is very far from the old values ! (max slow going to 95% for an average of 65% at max rank)

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE? First, Nasus E changes make him slightly weaker earlygame and therefore enhance the emphasis on player skill to deny Nasus while they can, and Nasus own skill to manage surviving and controlling minion waves to scale. But most of all, they target Nasus utility. By having an E shred that works better on tanky champions (without being overbearing, the values are comparable to black cleaver and can always be adjusted if it was to be too good) and a slightly more crippling attack speed slow, Nasus utility is more powerful and gives a more interesting play pattern than : "splitpush all game, hope team can waveclear and doesn't die too much". It is directed towards making Nasus more enclined to go teamfighting and be more interactive, while keeping his core weaknesses (bad early game, and prone to kiting).

On the topic of viability, I actually think it is also a progress. Right now, Nasus is better in low elo, because he's not kited properly by organized people. But the changes weaken his ability to crush carries with a flat armor shred E, so he won't be dominating. In higher elo, he will probably still be weak. But higher utility will make him more viable later into the game, and become an actual late game powerhouse, instead of a weird midgame pocket pick that sort of falls off despite infinite scaling. Overall, these changes will also target Nasus as being less of a "too dominant in low elo if decent in high elo, therefore must be kept weak". I clearly don't believe his winrate will skyrocket from these changes, but I believe Nasus will be more healthy and more satisfying to play.

http://img07.deviantart.net/c8c7/i/2010/112/d/5/nasus_by_wolfbeil.jpg

Thanks for reading, and happy to hear opinions.

60 Comments

4th Chiming Lamb15 votes

Ah, you put thought into these. That's a rarity.

<3

Sasogwa17 votes

{quoted}

Ah, you put thought into these. That's a rarity.

<3

http://i.memeful.com/media/post/9d6X6pM_700wa_0.gif

Ravenous Howls11 votes

Actually his WR is 46% at the moment... There are a few other problems that Nasus suffers from as well.

Items. They are effectively worse on him in terms of core build.

  • IBG got 25% shaved off it's sheen proc and TF was turned into a more AS oriented item. They both lost their AP component as well which actually boosted the power of Nasus's ult and E. Nasus does 60/40 physical/magic damage.

  • Frozen heart is not as good as it used to be. It lost some of it's AS reduction value and armor. It is too expensive for the loss of it's utility and defenses.

  • The tank update really did not provide him any options. Gargoyle Stone Plate is for tank initiators, which Nasus is not. Adaptive Helm and Abyssal Scepter/Mask are incredibly niche and are not optimal as they over cap CDR and Spirit Visage is just plain better on him and it just got nerfed as well...

  • Guardian Angel is no longer viable to pick up with it's lower defenses.

Key Stones. None of them are really Made for him.

  • Grasp- Was nerfed to hell and back and still required you to trade to get any benefit out of it. Which is not what we want to do as Nasus in the early game. Probably still one of the best option on him in terms of giving damage and sustain especially late game.

  • Storm Raiders- Is good for 1v1 but again requires you to trade to proc its effect and is only useful vs slows. If you need to team fight it will be rare that you can chunk a decent tank front line's health to get it's effect or you get lucky and reach the squishy back line and they have no hard cc to stop you. Also I feel like people only crow over this keystone b/c of the extra 5% CDR in the tree.

  • Warlords- Was great on Nasus before they changed it. That said the new version is like a mix between the two others as you get sustain and movement in smaller amounts that the others but it is not conditional on hitting champions. Making it probably the best or close to. But again that said it is sub par overall.

The real problem is Nasus's core items, when good, are too strong on others and b/c of his design and Kit can not make use of BC and Titanic Hydra like the other Juggernauts can. Hurting his ability to damage the front line and be more utilitarian in team fights.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j17YE2mO,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-05-25T13:17:34.826+0000)

Actually his WR is 46% at the moment... There are a few other problems that Nasus suffers from as well.

Items. They are effectively worse on him in terms of core build.

  • IBG got 25% shaved off it's sheen proc and TF was turned into a more AS oriented item. They both lost their AP component as well which actually boosted the power of Nasus's ult and E. Nasus does 60/40 physical/magic damage.

  • Frozen heart is not as good as it used to be. It lost some of it's AS reduction value and armor. It is too expensive for the loss of it's utility and defenses.

  • The tank update really did not provide him any options. Gargoyle Stone Plate is for tank initiators, which Nasus is not. Adaptive Helm and Abyssal Scepter/Mask are incredibly niche and are not optimal as they over cap CDR and Spirit Visage is just plain better on him and it just got nerfed as well...

  • Guardian Angel is no longer viable to pick up with it's lower defenses.

Key Stones. None of them are really Made for him.

  • Grasp- Was nerfed to hell and back and still required you to trade to get any benefit out of it. Which is not what we want to do as Nasus in the early game. Probably still one of the best option on him in terms of giving damage and sustain especially late game.

  • Storm Raiders- Is good for 1v1 but again requires you to trade to proc its effect and is only useful vs slows. If you need to team fight it will be rare that you can chunk a decent tank front line's health to get it's effect or you get lucky and reach the squishy back line and they have no hard cc to stop you. Also I feel like people only crow over this keystone b/c of the extra 5% CDR in the tree.

  • Warlords- Was great on Nasus before they changed it. That said the new version is like a mix between the two others as you get sustain and movement in smaller amounts that the others but it is not conditional on hitting champions. Making it probably the best or close to. But again that said it is sub par overall.

The real problem is Nasus's core items, when good, are too strong on others and b/c of his design and hit can not make use of BC and Titanic Hydra like the other Juggernauts can. Hurting his ability to damage the front line and be more utilitarian in team fights.

warlord is actually more useful for him now than before, since it scales off total ad now.

the gauntlet change is irrelevant. just do what i did and swap to triforce it basically replaced gauntlet in his build. the triforce cdr and attack speed buff largely made up for the gauntlet nerfs for nasus.

the steraks ad buff also supported him in that regard.

while i agree that nasus is in a shitty spot overall, its not because of those changes in particular.

Ravenous Howls2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j17YE2mO,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-05-25T13:38:47.618+0000)

warlord is actually more useful for him now than before, since it scales off total ad now.

Which Nasus does not build a lot of. Grasp's heal is twice what Warlord's can do at full build and level 18 stats. Unless I fucked up my math. The life steal before was more beneficial as it could be applied to his stack damage as well making the heals far more potent.

the gauntlet change is irrelevant. just do what i did and swap to triforce it basically replaced gauntlet in his build. the triforce cd and attack speed buff largely made up for the gauntlet nerfs for nasus.

I disagree. Gauntlet is still far more optimal of a build than TF largely due to expense and no defensive stats in TF. But the continued nerfs to the item, loss of armor/damage, makes it harder for Nasus to stay relevant when so many other champs can access items that are stronger like BC and Titanic.

the steraks ad buff also supported him in that regard.

Sterak's has always been good in conjunction with a sheen item. It is again really hard to build it if TF is going to be your primary build as the game will most likely be largely decided by the time you can even itemize for it.

while i agree that nasus is in a shitty spot overall, its not because of those changes in particular.

Item/mastery nerfs/changes have been indirectly affecting him for months and are the actual reasons why his win rate is so abysmal atm. There have been no direct changes to the champion since the ult change. Nasus has no natural way to get armor penetration or itemize for damage early without becoming too squishy he will lose by default due to his kit only having one primary damage ability.

ZeichiVos7 votes

That last bit, about Nasus not having any natural way of getting armour penetration, is a very significant part of his problem atm, which the dicussion was getting at. The reason juggernauts can do damage to the front line is a combination of built in pen and reliance on black cleaver. Without the ability to effectively itemize cleaver, unlike literally every other juggernaut (besides Mundo and Morde maybe), or even %maxhealth damage, Nasus is really reliant on his e to shred armour, and it just doesn't do the job in its current iteration. To bring Nasus in line with his compatriots, he'd either need %pen on e as suggested, or his e dealing physical damage such that he'd have a way to proc cleaver more effectively.

Ravenous Howls3 votes

Lack of decent % armor pen in his kit or itemization is what hurts Nasus the most but all the indirect nerfs to his items and the keystones that were good on him didn't help him either...

Veltox1 votes

Don't kill AP Nasus for slightly increased winrate.

Ravenous Howls4 votes

TBH I'd rather they killed off AP Nasus in favor of better defense and bruiser itemization. Almost all the other Juggernauts are primarily AD for all of their kit spells and hence get insane synergy with BC and Titanic.

Sasogwa4 votes

{quoted}

Don't kill AP Nasus for slightly increased winrate.

I actually took care of not touching AP Nasus whatsoever, to not kill a fun offmeta build. The flatpen vs %pen doesn't affect AP Nasus at all since it's armor shred not magic shred. It slightly reduces his Q/autoattacks damage early on when attacking an E'd target [compared to live], which is not quite AP Nasus most common pattern (AP Nasus is more about poking/waveclearing and his Q's/ autos are usually weaker).

Critmaster Garen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j17YE2mO,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-05-25T14:15:19.126+0000)

Which Nasus does not build a lot of.

thats why TOTAL ad scalings are generally more useful for him than bonus ad scalings. juggernauts in specific have high base ad values so they can itemize better into defense. this means abilities with total ad scalings like warlords are useful even when he doesnt stack large amounts of ad.

which also means steraks in specific and sheen procs are working better on him, as sheen and steraks synergize with his already high base ad values.

as far as item 3078 vs. item 3025 goes, ill just write it off as preference of different playstiles.

the changes to triforce and gauntlet are OLD by now. really decently old, and nasus was not even close to be as bad as hes now for the longest time, while the gauntlet nerfs and the triforce buffs were already in effect.

i do feel, that a strong triforce is far more beneficial to nasus than a strong gauntlet. since he lacks tools in his kit to fight tanks, his role on a team is to try and get in range of a squishy (preferably the enemy adc) and 2 shot him by midgame.

triforce in that regard with its 200% base ad sheen proc empowered by steraks is far more useful than even the old gauntlet would be.

the build im usually going for in my game is 0/18/12 masteries with stormraider and items like

item 3078 item 3053 item 3083 item 3211 item item 3742 and get 45% cdr as soon as possible.

stormraider is crucial to overcoming slows and running the adc (or whoever youre after) down after he used a mobility spell or flash.


the main reason of almost ALL juggernauts current weakness (not just nasus) in my opinion is, that the tank update all around massively nerfed health in their builds.

basically riot redistributed a ton of health on items into a tank core item active item 3193

of course that fucked over juggernauts as a class who were designed to scale with the same items as tanks (especially health), but arent able to make proper use of stoneplate.

so while tanks got compensated with a big core item for the health nerfs, juggernauts just lost.

Swiftstrike41 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j17YE2mO,comment-id=0003000000000001,timestamp=2017-05-25T23:02:27.809+0000)

thats why TOTAL ad scalings are generally more useful for him than bonus ad scalings. juggernauts in specific have high base ad values so they can itemize better into defense. this means abilities with total ad scalings like warlords are useful even when he doesnt stack large amounts of ad.

which also means steraks in specific and sheen procs are working better on him, as sheen and steraks synergize with his already high base ad values.

as far as item 3078 vs. item 3025 goes, ill just write it off as preference of different playstiles.

the changes to triforce and gauntlet are OLD by now. really decently old, and nasus was not even close to be as bad as hes now for the longest time, while the gauntlet nerfs and the triforce buffs were already in effect.

i do feel, that a strong triforce is far more beneficial to nasus than a strong gauntlet. since he lacks tools in his kit to fight tanks, his role on a team is to try and get in range of a squishy (preferably the enemy adc) and 2 shot him by midgame.

triforce in that regard with its 200% base ad sheen proc empowered by steraks is far more useful than even the old gauntlet would be.

the build im usually going for in my game is 0/18/12 masteries with stormraider and items like

item 3078 item 3053 item 3083 item 3211 item item 3742 and get 45% cdr as soon as possible.

stormraider is crucial to overcoming slows and running the adc (or whoever youre after) down after he used a mobility spell or flash.


the main reason of almost ALL juggernauts current weakness (not just nasus) in my opinion is, that the tank update all around massively nerfed health in their builds.

basically riot redistributed a ton of health on items into a tank core item active item 3193

of course that fucked over juggernauts as a class who were designed to scale with the same items as tanks (especially health), but arent able to make proper use of stoneplate.

so while tanks got compensated with a big core item for the health nerfs, juggernauts just lost.

The TF vs IBG isn't really a playstyle thing as much as it use to be. Cost is the main factor why I buy IBG over TF.

3733 gold for TF or 2700 gold for IBG 800 for kindle gem and 300 for boots. Total 3800 gold. I also don't have to build FH or manage my mana as much if I were to skip FH.

TF is a better item, but I am looking for a strong mid game spike and ending the game in under 30 minutes. TF is a later game spike and can stretch out the game. I want to close out a game. I don't want games to last long.

As soon as I made the switch (I was a TF guy in the fall) I started winning a lot more games and having shorter games. TF is a great item if you are ahead. But if the the game is even always go IBG.

Eternal Torment5 votes

normally i call bullshit on balance changes for champions who are in a (more or less) decent spot but you really made your homework there, and that is a rarity. so i gave my thought and read it all and i have to say, you make very strong (and valid) arguments. i can only agree.

rework trundle3 votes

I posted my potential changes on r/nasusmains, but I'll paste them here as well. Note : W needs to slow less at later ranks, for sure.

He needs two things : increased mobility, and % armor pen (bonus or not, what Riot prefers).

  1. E now grants (40/50/6070/80) movement speed to Nasus while in it
  2. Nasus gains 1% bonus armor pen for every 15 stacks (would reach 100% at 1.5k so that's not too broken) Darius gets 5% for every point in E, Garen gets 25% once he hits 4 spins (and both stack BC instantly), so why not give Nasus % armor pen as well? This is what I think would help him the best. His early game is not that weak (unless you're against Teemo, Kayle, Kennen, etc), but still weak enough to compensate for the monster he can become.
Sasogwa2 votes

[{quoted}](name=le un le seul,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j17YE2mO,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-05-25T16:23:00.961+0000)

I posted my potential changes on r/nasusmains, but I'll paste them here as well. Note : W needs to slow less at later ranks, for sure.

He needs two things : increased mobility, and % armor pen (bonus or not, what Riot prefers).

  1. E now grants (40/50/6070/80) movement speed to Nasus while in it
  2. Nasus gains 1% bonus armor pen for every 15 stacks (would reach 100% at 1.5k so that's not too broken) Darius gets 5% for every point in E, Garen gets 25% once he hits 4 spins (and both stack BC instantly), so why not give Nasus % armor pen as well? This is what I think would help him the best. His early game is not that weak (unless you're against Teemo, Kayle, Kennen, etc), but still weak enough to compensate for the monster he can become.

Those set of changes are interesting, but really, they're quite a huge/dangerous buff. A good amount of movespeed, quite a lot of %bonus pen in lategame.. Obviously they are set to lategame I see because it scales with stacks, and % bonus armor pen is very dependant on game time, however 500+ stacks basically granting a last whisper passive is quite scary to say the least.

Yes there is the 'antisynergy' between his flat armor shred of E (applies before pen) and %pen, but still.

I can't say I dislike it, but they're straight out buffs and potentially too strong (and create too much disparity between the games where Nasus is stacked and the games where Nasus got denied, therefore potentially much higher winrate in lower elo than in higher, and hard to balance out on multiple elos. Or maybe not. It is common knowledge people are worse at denying Nasus in low elos, but also the low elo Nasuses are worse at farming so I can't say for sure ^^)

kile1471 votes

I like the idea of another scaling for his Q stacks, but then he still doesn't have much team utility for when he is behind. You could reduce the speed boost from E but make it apply to allies as well.

Shuriman Curator1 votes

[{quoted}](name=le un le seul,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j17YE2mO,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-05-25T16:23:00.961+0000)

I posted my potential changes on r/nasusmains, but I'll paste them here as well. Note : W needs to slow less at later ranks, for sure.

He needs two things : increased mobility, and % armor pen (bonus or not, what Riot prefers).

  1. E now grants (40/50/6070/80) movement speed to Nasus while in it
  2. Nasus gains 1% bonus armor pen for every 15 stacks (would reach 100% at 1.5k so that's not too broken) Darius gets 5% for every point in E, Garen gets 25% once he hits 4 spins (and both stack BC instantly), so why not give Nasus % armor pen as well? This is what I think would help him the best. His early game is not that weak (unless you're against Teemo, Kayle, Kennen, etc), but still weak enough to compensate for the monster he can become.

I remember seeing your thread on the subreddit. +1

ME UNGA ME SMASH2 votes

Something tells me that making Nasus wither any more crippling than it already is isn't going to go over well with the general public.

AwesomeGuyDj2 votes

split push. Split push. SPLIT PUSH. SPLIIIT PUUUSH. From what i understand he's always had bad teamfighting. He's a splitpusher.

notice me Sin pi1 votes

i agree, he needs his flat pen for 1vs1

Darth StepVader2 votes

{quoted}

split push. Split push. SPLIT PUSH. SPLIIIT PUUUSH. From what i understand he's always had bad teamfighting. He's a splitpusher.

The thing is, he cannot even split any more. You cannot even 1v1 the enemy tank late game(Poppy Nautilus Malphite Shen ) without going oom and most of them have received updated %hp damage kits anyway. So, why pick Nasus who has a shitty early game and then a mediocre late and not take Fiora instead, who has a more than decent early and a disgusting late that allows her to towerdive everything?

There are already champs that split better than him(Fiora Yasuo Tryndamere Camille Gangplank Kled ) and there are champs that teamfight better than him (Camille Darius Fiora Galio Irelia Poppy ) and there are also the meta picks that do better just about everything( Kennen Jayce ). In other words, he needs minor tweaks that will seperate him from the bunch and reward him for his niche, which is stacking damage on his Q. Right now, his Q feels useless the more a gme drags, unlike Fiora's vitals, for instance, that pop tanks off like they're nothing.

The suggested %arm pen will not affect his teamfighting much. It will, though, make him a much better split-pusher. The enemy tank will feel threatened by him, just as much as it would from a Darius or a Fiora and that's how it should be actually.

AwesomeGuyDj1 votes

im NOT saying the %armor reduction would be good or bad. Im simply saying he has bad team fighting BECAUSE he's a split pusher. Though i do agree pretty much all you listed are better.

Chønklord2 votes

Honestly, they should rework his E completely. His identity / kit revolves around being an ascended - a being high above mortals/etc - and his whole "schtick" is "the sands of time". His W is called wither, and so on. You get the idea.

**Nasus is all about time; "stacking" his mighty power with Q over time; making his enemies "wither away" as if they were an old, decrepit person (withering over time).

His only ability that doesn't really fit in or seems "outdated" is his E. Ok, so it's a "pool that saps away life energy over time" -- I think Riot could make something better with his E.

Maybe make it less AoE and more Melee/single target focused. Then Nasus needs some TLC for his base HP and whatnot. Take away his AoE but give him back some power in the form slightly more durability.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

Gotta be careful with buffing his slow, it's seriously really strong and if it gets too much it just makes him able to farm safely without anyone being able to engage on him.

BLACK REALM GOD2 votes

playing globally "who let the dogs out" during the dance animation and auto dancing after getting a kill without hindering movement by incorporating the dancing into his walk animation.

would fix everything.

Sire Hippington1 votes

The slow changes are solid, but i really dislike the %shred idea. The thing that most people forget is that shred, especially an aoe shred, does not only affect your damage but that off the entier team. This means that even though he won't reach the backline on his own, his E can help alot at killing the squishies. 40 additional arpen for the likes of a Talon is alot extra damage. This also means that the %pen won't neccesarily make him a monster vs tanks on his onw, but paired with his carry, it would be just another fuck you to tankiness in the lategame. Also, why should he get more damage vs tanky opponents? He has mixed damage, %hp damage, sustain, so good tools at dealigng with those already. If you want a juggernaut that shreds tanks, Garen and Darius both fill that niche allready.

Imo there are 3 parts of his kit that could use buffs: Base AD growth, maybe at the cost of some ad at lvl 1, increasing his synergie with iceborn and trinity. Add some tenacity and/or slow resist on the ult. Imo it would be fair when melees that lack mobillity therefor are less vulnerable to cc. Changes to the passive. Without the bonus ad from the ult, the ifesteal doesn't do that much outside of lane anymore. Changeing it to something like "heals for 7/10/13% of all damage done premittigation". This would boost his teamfight sustain quite a bit while probably lowering his raw 1v1/lane sustain.

rework trundle2 votes

The slow changes are solid, but i really dislike the %shred idea. The thing that most people forget is that shred, especially an aoe shred, does not only affect your damage but that off the entier team. This means that even though he won't reach the backline on his own, his E can help alot at killing the squishies. 40 additional arpen for the likes of a Talon is alot extra damage.

This is why he should gain % armor pen based on number of stacks.

Sasogwa4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j17YE2mO,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2017-05-25T16:29:37.963+0000)

The slow changes are solid, but i really dislike the %shred idea. The thing that most people forget is that shred, especially an aoe shred, does not only affect your damage but that off the entier team. This means that even though he won't reach the backline on his own, his E can help alot at killing the squishies. 40 additional arpen for the likes of a Talon is alot extra damage. This also means that the %pen won't neccesarily make him a monster vs tanks on his onw, but paired with his carry, it would be just another fuck you to tankiness in the lategame.

This is a very fair point. I usually dislike changes that say fuck you to tankiness and was happy to hear about BC/LW nerfs. However, Nasus is in a world of juggernaughts that have high synergy with item 3071 while he has none. E change would basically make him his own BC.

Also, why should he get more damage vs tanky opponents? He has mixed damage, %hp damage, sustain, so good tools at dealigng with those already. If you want a juggernaut that shreds tanks, Garen and Darius both fill that niche allready.

While it is very true, Nasus as a kiteable juggernaught has a hard time choosing his targets, and actually gets simply outclassed by the likes of Fiora Darius . In teamfights, he can't do much more than them (though the small as slow buff could make him into a slightly different niche as anti-carry.. or not, the buff is quite small actually). He is stuck fighting the frontline with his %health magic damage ult with an AP ratio, but can't really build AP. He suffers of the "too generalistic vs too specialized" factor. Nowadays champions have extremely highly synergistic kits (physical juggernaughts with Black cleaver like Darius for instance) while old kits like Nasus have a bit of everything (mixed damage, sustain, %health magic damage, flat armor shred). Quite weird but at the same time I kinda prefer old kits so I can't complain.

Nasus can't do well in teamfights nowadays because his kit isn't as cohesive and specialized as others. While there's tanks and high health/resists with insane CC locking people down, anti-tank black cleaver juggernaughts to kill them, carries with kite and high dps or burst ; meanwhile there's Nasus with his lifesteal, stack mechanic, mixed damage trying to work his way.

I could potentially suggest changes that would make him really synergistic, like physical E and ult (# insane black cleaver synergy), but that kills of AP Nasus (sad).

Imo there are 3 parts of his kit that could use buffs: Base AD growth, maybe at the cost of some ad at lvl 1, increasing his synergie with iceborn and trinity.

Makes sense. Though it mostly targets raw power.

Add some tenacity and/or slow resist on the ult. Imo it would be fair when melees that lack mobillity therefor are less vulnerable to cc.

Now that is a suggestion that has come down several times over the years. It is an interesting suggestion that i like a lot. But in general the consensus is that it puts too much power budget into his ultimate, which is already a %max health damage AOE with bonus health, and bonus resistances increasing over time. Nasus would be insane under ultimate, and meh without. Hard to balance out.

Changes to the passive. Without the bonus ad from the ult, the ifesteal doesn't do that much outside of lane anymore. Changeing it to something like "heals for 7/10/13% of all damage done premittigation". This would boost his teamfight sustain quite a bit while probably lowering his raw 1v1/lane sustain.

Now this is is also a very interesting suggestion, that I have thought about in the past. If we don't wanna make him destroy tankiness/ be a mainstream armor shred juggernaught because it would be his only way to function? another way to look at how to overcome tankiness is sustain that is indifferent of how tanky your opponent is, similarly to Vladimir . However, I think changes like lifesteal ignoring a portion or a totality of armor would generate more frustration than solve problems. It loads a lot of power budget into lifestealing, which is sort of a worthless stat in teamfights if you're focused down. It does help fighting tanks because at least if you're not doing too much damage to them, you're lifestealing decently off them. But I fear the matchups vs tanks would be a bit too unhealthy for the tanks facing Nasus because Nasus would just lifesteal through their damage completely, while armor is a stat that is supposed to reduce lifestealing. And creating a pattern where you literally can't do anything someone because their kit counters you, not even an ounce of damage, is dangerous.

In conclusion, as much as I dislike putting anti-tank mechanics on champions, I believe it's the best way for Nasus to compete with what he's facing. In all honesty, the % shred of up to 28% isn't quite as bad as Fiora's %max health true damage, god bless. It's around the niche of black claver, and stays inside a circle. Making tanks think again about staying in the zone makes Nasus also more interesting in my opinion. Because don't forget that getting out of the zone immediately removes the armor shred.

Geshultz1 votes

How about making his e deal physical damage instead of magic and add an ad ratio and a ratio that adds damage based on how many stacks he has. On top of changing his e from flat to % would that help out nasus enough? As it would give him synergy with black clever and give him a useful clear tool into the late game to be better at split pushing or the ability to be a tank shredder as well.

Sasogwa2 votes

{quoted}

How about making his e deal physical damage instead of magic and add an ad ratio and a ratio that adds damage based on how many stacks he has. On top of changing his e from flat to % would that help out nasus enough? As it would give him synergy with black clever and give him a useful clear tool into the late game to be better at split pushing or the ability to be a tank shredder as well.

So what would happen if E was physical :

  1. Rip AP Nasus, literally. It just kills this version of Nasus.
  2. The build path is weird. What Nasus wants most of all as item rushs are two things : resistances to mitigate the enemy laner, and CDR for Q CD reduction. Black cleaver provides CDR but doesn't provide any resistance whatsoever. Which makes it quite awful as an item rush, even worse than Triforce, which has at least a sheen for the powerspike.

So will Nasus take black cleaver if E is physical? Probably, but it kinda fucks up his build path and he'll be going for 50%+ cdr builds most likely. Also, if he doesn't get BC, his E is basically weaker than old magic damage E.

( I expect item 3025 item 3065 item 3071 item 3143 item 3512 item 3111 or something similar)


Next off, putting damage on E based on stacks (outside of all physical-magical considerations) is a very interesting idea, but it causes a balance problem : do we wanna keep AP Nasus, which is mostly about E and doesn't have much stacks? Cause as a straight buff, it would probably break Nasus, if we nerf base damage to compensate, it would probably kill AP Nasus.

Geshultz1 votes

Well, for one way to make AP nasus still work would be to add an ap ratio to his q and reduce his base damage on e but add the stacking mechanic then. Making AP nasus still viable but also giving non-ap nasus a decent clear tool for splitting.

HateDaddy1 votes

Yeah, he's definitely on the weak side. I don't know what it is either. I think losing HP on items hurts some. I think his ult could use more upfront values defensively and have less growth over time. Maybe give him a little lifesteal back on his passive because of how accelerated games are now. The abomination that is rift herald is also a hit to his early game because he's typically not strong enough to ever contest it with a jungler.

Theorchero1 votes

..what?

No. Changing his flat REDUCTION, which works WONDERFULLY with lethality and % pen, to % pen would be a giant NERF.

What Nasus needs is for his lifesteal to be applied before damage mitigation.

Doozku2 votes

Since when does Nasus build lethality or any damage other than tri at all?

Theorchero1 votes

{quoted}

Since when does Nasus build lethality or any damage other than tri at all?

A lot of good nasus players take lethality reds. On top of that, using E's helps your AD champions deal damage.

The OP's idea is a straight up nerf to killing squishies which is what Nasus is supposed to do.

Doozku3 votes

Unless you play him as a teamfighter, Nasus's main job is to split push. On top lane, he goes against a lot of tankier champions so I'd say that it would be a buff.

Also Nasus is a selfish champion. Unless you're playing AP Support Nasus, I don't see how often you'd use your E for utility seeing as how it costs so much mana and you already need that precious mana for your Q.

Sasogwa3 votes

{quoted}

..what?

No. Changing his flat REDUCTION, which works WONDERFULLY with lethality and % pen, to % pen would be a giant NERF.

What Nasus needs is for his lifesteal to be applied before damage mitigation.

It works well with lethality, but is actually slightly antisynergistic with %pen. Shred is applied BEFORE penetration; before all considerations of flat/percentage. Therefore, if you get LW the pen will be applied to 40 less armor (I believe that however the shred is equitably distributed between flat and bonus armor, like if 75% of your armor is flat and 25% is bonus, it will shred 30 flat and 10 bonus). But in any case, you lose out on the %pen a little bit.

In any case, changing his shred from flat to percentage doesn't change anything in the order of penetration. It doesn't do anything else than being stronger against high armored champions and weaker against squishy champions, the rest of the lethality/pen synergies are untouched.

Shred =/= armor penetration or lethality

Siegfriedx11 votes

Increase an amount of armor and magic resistance every x stacks and we are good.

BoilTheOil1 votes

yea i used to play nasus quite a bit and he does need some buffs i think riot should maybe give him a second passive. Maybe something like (sounds kinda funny) but he will bark at his opponent and it will mark them and if he uses his w or e on them he gains movement speed.

Blyted1 votes

I have thought about this very question quite a bit mostly I'm concerned that changes to Nasus would dilute his identity or end up adding needless complications to his gameplay pattern. I am a low elo Nasus main. I main him mostly because I have to play on lock screen and Nasus is a very simple and straight forward champion. I understand that Nasus has limited viability and I am ok with that.

The one change I would like is for his ult to grant %damage reduction instead of armor/mr. This change would solidify Nasus identity as a 1v1 split pushing monster and not overly buff his team fight capability. This change would also open up more build variety for Nasus.

SnakDatSmilesBak1 votes

Hey nice post, there's a post somewhere on these that says Nasus should be talked about, you should ask him to link to your post so more people see it!

FourVsFive1 votes

Since when has he fallen off late game? ever vs a 1,000 stack nasus?

Shuriman Curator2 votes

{quoted}

Since when has he fallen off late game? ever vs a 1,000 stack nasus?

It doesn't matter how many stacks you have if you can't even get to your target. Let alone of your enemy builds armor +ninja tabi which reduces your damage output to shit.

Great Ozymandius2 votes

For the last several seasons, Nasus has been a mid-game champion. Once the enemy team gets a good tank or two and the enemy carries have armor shred, nasus gets blown up in fights and accomplishes nothing.

Season 1 Nasus was a lategame champion. Season 7 Nasus? Your window to shine is between minutes 22 and 28.

Vectros1 votes

I like the idea, upvote for you.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

Nasus will never be allowed to have the monstrous late game Nasus players want unless his laning phase actually becomes punishable by more than a handful of hard counters like Darius.

LyingOnLine2 votes

Most champs get along in the game without even having one hard counter, let alone multiple popular ones.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

{quoted}

Most champs get along in the game without even having one hard counter, let alone multiple popular ones.

Do they?

Even incredibly popular meta champions like Fiora have hard counters, such as Pantheon.

DarwinTheory1 votes

Actually his WR doesn't mean anything. He is a late game champion and this season is a snowball meta so he never gets late game.

Any buff given to him will make him broken when season 8 begins because clearly RIOT fucked up S7 and they know it but won't admit it.

TheDogIsOut1 votes

I'm just gonna bump that thread for more visibility, I like the reflexions that are put there.

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