Boards›Gameplay

I Summon Whoever Wrote Those Karma Patchnotes

SilverSquid··40 votes·5,030 views

EDIT: This turned out longer than expected. TL;DR at the bottom.

Riot, I have got to talk to you. Seriously. About what you wrote:

Karma’s issue is simple - she’s doing the right things, but she’s just doing them a little too well. Namely, Inspire (and its Mantra’d form, Defiance) are providing too much safety and disengage from the get-go. Taking a swing at their potency should keep the Enlightened One’s supportive qualities from being too overbearing. - Patch 6.15

There is so much wrong here, I am having troubles deciding where to begin. Oh, well, let's do it chronologically.

Karma’s issue is simple - she’s doing the right things, but she’s just doing them a little too well

No, she is NOT doing the right things. She is doing ALL the things. All of them. Too many. Meddler admitted she is "bland", not "satisfyingly distinct enough" and her "tools feel too familiar". Statikk described her problem as being "unfocused", having a "jack-of-all-trades problem", by "dabbling a bit in everything". Besides, there is a huge ongoing debate in the Karma community, whether the things she is doing even are Karma-things at all. There is no karma (punishing evil deeds, rewarding good), there are no fans, there is no duality. You might say about New or Old Karma what you want, but calling her tankscaling-including, glass-cannon-build-enticing kit that is mainly played as a support doing the right things is beyond confused. So far I don't know whether to be worried or scared. How do you know if she is doing the right things if you don't even know what she is supposed to be doing?

Namely, Inspire (and its Mantra’d form, Defiance) are providing too much safety and disengage from the get-go.

Well, maybe you shouldn't have buffed her Defiance shieldvalue to unreasonable values then? It was to "buff midlane Karma", if I remember correctly? Well, golly gee, straight up buffing the mantra ability that is 90% used by support Karma couldn't have possibly ended in overbuffing support Karma right?

Okay. hindsight is 20/20. I get that. But the number buffs weren't needed. Which the Karma community pointed out on the boards. I don't want to play the "we told you so card" (even if tempting), but instead would ask you to consider for the future, that every time you adress one mantra option, you also need to consider the other two.

Taking a swing at their potency should keep the Enlightened One’s supportive qualities from being too overbearing.

You see, there's the problem. You don't even seem to know what you did, in addition to keeping her RE-power in check. You took yet another part of mantra and made it scale with base ability levels instead of mantra levels. And you know what that means?

In laning phase it makes ONE mantra overbearingly stronger than the others. This - again - takes flexibility out of her kit (in terms of gameplay), and makes her a one-trick-pony in three different lanes (RW top, RQ mid, RE bot - pick a lane and pick a mantra, spam it and succeed).

It could also mean you want her to max E in lane. Fair enough, but this means in the worst case not skilling Q, removing her identity as a damage heavy support (I have already seen Karmas maxing E first and building Talisman. Yuck!). This seems to me like an utter confusion of what Karma used to and is supposed to be.

But since Q is still strong, most Karma players will probably want to max E second anyways. However, this pushes the option of maxing W second - provided that you are ahead and can afford to be agressive - from occasionally to never. This means, that RW won't reach its oh-so-hallowed 3.25s duration, while it's already outperformed in power and reliability by the other two Mantras. And might I mention that the RW root was added to give her more utility as a support? So now this weird root is clogging her power budget like my aunt's greasy 2ft-hair cloggs up our sink whenever she comes for a visit and decides to take a shower, but the ability doesn't even synergize with her kit and isn't fully used in 90% of support Karma games? What's up with that?

https://67.media.tumblr.com/780f05ee495e8ae3a42e15df5742984a/tumblr_n0j2rkW8tT1s0adc8o2_1280.jpg

Reading so far is exhausting. Here, for your troubles.

About the Things You Didn't Mention

Not even a comment on minion shielding? Did the last 10 threads in the last 2 weeks go unread? Well, let me repeat it then: Alongside those well deserved nerfs to her outrageous shielding power, there are 4 other things happening:

  • RE can't be used for swift escapes in solo lanes anymore (no bonus MS over E).
  • Tower pushing in solo lanes nerfed.
  • RE has become an increasingly inferior choice for midlane Karma, fortifying the suppressive dominance of her RQ.
  • RE can't be used on minions to** extend your reach** or hit more allies

Phreak and SmashGizmo called the last point "niche" cases. Which makes me seriously wonder whether they even play the champion. Or whether they would also remove the insec kick, because it's a niche case. But, whatever you might think about the frequency; those were things that Karma mains felt were showing their mastery with Karma. Even knowing when to shield what minion to make them tank 1-2 additional tower shots was already something that you could be proud of. Okay. Yes, I admit, minion shielding is probably not worth keeping over this. It might make Karma more unique, but it doesn't help if you (Riot), consider it toxic. I get it. But maybe could you make it up somehow? Or could you make up your mind what you want Karma to be?

Do you want to highlight her power in lane and lategame utility bot, or do you wanna make her scale normally? Do you want her mantra to be an engaging toolbox that has an answer for every situation, or do you want it to enable 3 different lanes for her, where she predominantly uses one of those? Do you want her to have a high skillfloor and low skillceiling as she does right now, or do you wanna make her more user friendly and/or let her have more things to master?

Whatever you decide; if you don't make up your mind beforehand, in my opinion, you will never be able to honestly state, that Karma is doing the right things. Because if you don't know what she should be, you can't say what's right about her and what isn't.

TL;DR

  • Riot is taking away uniqueness and mastery from an already bland champion.
  • Riot is calling what Karma does "the right things", even though she is lacking as much identity and focus as a champion possibly could.
  • I welcome the number nerfs and admit minion shielding is maybe not healthy for the game.
  • I request Riot to make up their mind what they want Karma to do, before telling us that she is doing it right.

This ^ is really short though. If you consider commenting, please read the full thread to avoid missunderstandings. If you did, have my thanks. I appreciate you taking your time and welcome any criticism. Like, really: Thanks! You are the part of the board who still cares, which makes you awesome!

Greetings, SilverSquid

75 Comments

ZapMyHeart12 votes

Riot will continue to ignore pleas from Karma players, so therefore, I will bring up the point that her color scheme (purple) is fugly as hell and they should've stuck with the black/white motif rather than pretend she shifted over to the dark side or some stupid Fire Nation attacked nonsense they call her lore.

Mhihnj11 votes

All the black and whites lived in harmony but everything changed when Lulu attacked.

I sound racist

IxtaliKing4 votes

What do you think of her concept art?

ZapMyHeart1 votes

{quoted}

What do you think of her concept art?

I actually loved her concept art when the artist released it, which was why I wondered Riot changed it to this current form. Perhaps Riot thought it made her look a bit too much like an evil sorceress?

The thing I hate most about Karma's outfit is that the color scheme is disgustingly unfitting for her.

According to RiotRunaan "Hey there! Yes, her outfit is a huge change, and I do understand how the old black and white color scheme communicated the duality of her theme. However, the black and white color scheme--the "yin yang" color scheme--is very much based in the real world and not the world of Runeterra. It's also a very simplistic representation for a very complex character--things are no longer just "black and white" for Karma. We wanted to build Karma OUT of our setting rather than build her INTO our setting. That said, Ionia's colors are not just red and white. I know Irelia stands out, but she's a very militaristic and revolutionary character. Karma has a lot of muted purples--a softer take on the "dark" side of Ionia, like Syndra, and the gold you'll see in traditional Ionia (take a look at some of the architecture in the background of her splash). Hope that helps a bit!"

Sauce: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1alp9r/karma_relaunch_ama/

Basically, Runaan said Karma became evil. Less evil than Syndra, but still nonetheless evil because of the color scheme and her lore.

I hated that Riot made Karma hangry. She threw away her benevolent ideals and unshakeable calm just because Noxians invaded her land; thus becoming corrupted because she decided to kill one person for the greater good. Basically, she is just another sad human (with magical powers) that fell to anger and hate, something which Noxus ideals are based upon. Karma was not enlightened; she simply succumbed to human fallacies. Old Karma was smart enough to sucker the general to stop the invasion and even granted safe passage for her people.

I'm not a fan of the colors. Green and Purple just reminds me of a toxic/poisonous theme. Plus, with her darker skin, it doesn't work well, just because they blend.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Basically, Runaan said Karma became evil. Less evil than Syndra, but still nonetheless evil because of the color scheme and her lore.

Personally I didn't really get that from he said. I thought it was more to do with her taking up a more pragmatic position to deal with the Noxian invaders, rather than remain totally peaceful like their traditions dictate and accept needless death.

I hated that Riot made Karma hangry. She threw away her benevolent ideals and unshakeable calm just because Noxians invaded her land; thus becoming corrupted because she decided to kill one person for the greater good. Basically, she is just another sad human (with magical powers) that fell to anger and hate, something which Noxus ideals are based upon.

Did she become angry and hateful, or did she just see things for what they were? Being benevolent and peaceful got the elder monks killed because they failed to understand the nature of their enemy, and they in turn put their village in greater danger.

Karma was not enlightened; she simply succumbed to human fallacies.

But Karma was enlightened, the Noxian invasion was likely the catalyst of her enlightenment. She understood that unless she used her powers to fight, her people would be slaughtered and that if taking 1 life meant saving many others, it was worth it. The purpose behind Karma's duality was to show her enlightenment in understanding the wholeness of things.

I'm not a fan of the colors. Green and Purple just reminds me of a toxic/poisonous theme. Plus, with her darker skin, it doesn't work well, just because they blend.

I see what you mean, what colours would you prefer to see?

ZapMyHeart1 votes

{quoted}

Personally I didn't really get that from he said. I thought it was more to do with her taking up a more pragmatic position to deal with the Noxian invaders, rather than remain totally peaceful like their traditions dictate and accept needless death.

He might as well said it. Syndra's color represent the "dark side" of Ionia; that is, spite and anger, which is opposite of what Ionia represents. When he said that her colors were more softer, it pretty much meant the same thing, but to a lesser degree. That is how I saw it, as for someone who is supposedly "enlightened", why would they choose a color that is similarly to one (Syndra) who fell from grace? The last thing I want to be is to become associated with someone who was bitter.

The thing I don't buy is that they want to steer away from the Buddhist/Yin-Yang theme, but that is what Karma represents. Even her name has ties to it. Plus, other champions draw from real-life themes as well and they have no problem utilizing it (e.g. Yasuo, Cass, Yorick).

Did she become angry and hateful, or did she just see things for what they were? Being benevolent and peaceful got the elder monks killed because they failed to understand the nature of their enemy, and they in turn put their village in greater danger.

One could be pragmatic and benevolent at the same time, even in the time of crisis. Her old lore stated that she was intelligent enough to prevent the invasion through politics; whereas this one basically just killed a general to get them to stop. Unlike Demacians, who are more than willing to fight, Ionians are considered more peaceful. Someone who is able to solve problems through tactical and democratic means is more inspirational and rare than someone who just fought back to defend themselves. It's a bland and boring narrative that is heard many times. The underdog who rose up by fighting against injustice through arms. Been there, done that. The only difference is that the person comes from a goody-two shoes land, making her somehow different (e.g. heretic) when it really isn't. It's not exactly admirable. What is more inspiring is that even through a war-torn land, someone still fights for peace using non-violent means. That is difficult to do. Killing other people is not. It's like you or me standing up to fight against social injustice by killing dictators. Does this somehow makes us "enlightened" because we are good people who decided to defend others through stopping those who are causing chaos?

But Karma was enlightened, the Noxian invasion was likely the catalyst of her enlightenment. She understood that unless she used her powers to fight, her people would be slaughtered and that if taking 1 life meant saving many others, it was worth it. The purpose behind Karma's duality was to show her enlightenment in understanding the wholeness of things.

Old Karma was "enlightened" through a Noxian invasion as well. The only difference is that she didn't kill a general in order to stop the invasion. Personally, how this lore paints her is how Demacia would handle the problem: Passionate and willing to fight for justice through any means. However, because she is from Ionia, this somehow makes her "enlightened", when Demacians are doing the same thing? That is not what I considered "enlightened", simply because she is an Ionian that doesn't share her people's views. Irelia's lore is the same way. Would you call her enlightened as well? Karma may consider her views "enlightened", but not everyone shares that same view of hers. As mentioned in her lore, people were divided between peace, vengeance, and her "enlightened" way. To me, people from her country can see her viewpoint as heretical. Whereas, for Old Karma, everyone in her country stood behind her because she is Ionia.

But since her lore came about during the time when Riot was destroying all their champion's backgrounds and their writers were doing shoddy work, it's not exactly surprising to see her lore being a ripped off line of the Avatar: The Last Airbender.

I see what you mean, what colours would you prefer to see?

I can't say, especially since I wouldn't know what her theme would be. Though, if we were to go by the current one, I would say (50) shades of grey (teehee) and green, with the gold trim and a bit of white. The grey is to represent the "grey" area that Karma has now become and white is just to offset that color's intensity, whereas the green is to go with the dragon motif, while gold is the Ionian theme.

I would like to see white + dark blue on her, with some gold trim, actually. However, that represents peace, so it doesn't go along with her "current" theme.

Can't forget about the red streak in her hair, either.

IxtaliKing1 votes

It seems like every aspect of Karma was rushed with her rework.

He might as well said it. Syndra's color represent the "dark side" of Ionia; that is, spite and anger, which is opposite of what Ionia represents. When he said that her colors were more softer, it pretty much meant the same thing, but to a lesser degree.

I don't know much about Syndra, but I don't get a spiteful vibe from her, she just seems like she's mad with power in a chaotic way. It would make sense for someone who is enlightened to understand both the light and the dark as a whole, but not be consumed by either one.

Old Karma was "enlightened" through a Noxian invasion as well. The only difference is that she didn't kill a general in order to stop the invasion. Personally, how this lore paints her is how Demacia would handle the problem: Passionate and willing to fight for justice through any means.

I'm not familiar with Old Karma's lore so I can't really comment or compare the two, I'm just going off the new lore which is... quite poor.

One could be pragmatic and benevolent at the same time, even in the time of crisis.

How? I know you don't like the new lore and I agree it's quite weak, but given the circumstances what could she have done differently? What is practical and realistic can't always be nice and good for everybody, as the word "benevolent" would suggest.

What is more inspiring is that even through a war-torn land, someone still fights for peace using non-violent means. That is difficult to do. Killing other people is not. It's like you or me standing up to fight against social injustice by killing dictators.

It's not as if she's needlessly violent, she's only violent when there's no other choice. Within the parameters the writer of that lore set, her actions are very measured and reasonable. I'd like to believe as a character, the Karma we love is still salvageable, it's just a matter of what happens next.

I would like to see white + dark blue on her, with some gold trim, actually. However, that represents peace, so it doesn't go along with her "current" theme. Can't forget about the red streak in her hair, either.

Funny you should say that, I was thinking this. A dark blue might work well with her, or at least a different shade of purple if they really wanted to maintain that same mysticism. I'd say the white and gold trim are a must though.

ZapMyHeart1 votes

{quoted}

It seems like every aspect of Karma was rushed with her rework.

I don't know much about Syndra, but I don't get a spiteful vibe from her, she just seems like she's mad with power in a chaotic way. It would make sense for someone who is enlightened to understand both the light and the dark as a whole, but not be consumed by either one.

I'm not familiar with Old Karma's lore so I can't really comment or compare the two, I'm just going off the new lore which is... quite poor.

How? I know you don't like the new lore and I agree it's quite weak, but given the circumstances what could she have done differently? What is practical and realistic can't always be nice and good for everybody, as the word "benevolent" would suggest.

It's not as if she's needlessly violent, she's only violent when there's no other choice. Within the parameters the writer of that lore set, her actions are very measured and reasonable. I'd like to believe as a character, the Karma we love is still salvageable, it's just a matter of what happens next. Can't forget about the red streak in her hair, either.

Funny you should say that, I was thinking this. A dark blue might work well with her, or at least a different shade of purple if they really wanted to maintain that same mysticism. I'd say the white and gold trim are a must though.

I think it's best that you read her old lore in order to truly understand why her new lore sucks :)

"Even in her youth, Karma exhibited almost superhuman composure. While her peers explored the torrent of emotions that came with adolescence, Karma meditated in the Lotus Gardens. She was convinced that the true path to enlightenment was a journey inward, to a place within the self, overlooked by most. She exuded such inner contentment that she quickly became a go-to mediator and confidante in her village. Her instructors used to say: That girl can not only weather a storm, but calm it. Karma did not live extravagantly; her parents owned a local business selling antiques in the Navori province and they often struggled to provide for themselves, though they did so with cheery optimism. Her most prized possessions were two exquisite fans taken from her family's shop.

When Noxian troops invaded southern Ionia, her village was one of the first to fall. The villages who survived the assault were captured by Noxian forces. It was then that Karma found her calling. By exploiting the insecurities of the Noxian commander, she negotiated the safe release of the villages to the northern lands. She was present at the Placidium, where the Elders had considered surrender until Irelia's impassioned last stand renewed the Ionians' hope. Karma used this hope to solidify the Elders' commitment to remain defiant against the Noxian onslaught. For her devotion and charisma, Karma was made the figurehead of the Ionian resistance. She never compromised, and she shared every hardship with her people, even when it came to combat. By tapping into her inner resilience, she discovered that she could bring great force to bear against her foes on the battlefield. She modified her fans into lethal implements, and was tutored by Janna to enhance their effects. The Noxians called her, The Enlightened One, a nickname she embraced, and one which they would come to dread. She joined the League to represent Ionia in the ultimate political arena."

"Her fan technique is a deadly art of grace and poise, but her truest strength lies in the hearts of those willing to die alongside her." -Irelia

IxtaliKing1 votes

That's a lot better than the new lore, she seems a lot more important and even has connections to other champs. Her new lore definitely took a back step.

7thHeaven7 votes

http://cdn.staticneo.com/w/leagueoflegends/a/ae/KarmaIcon.png The fan is back

OtakuBurrito7 votes

I can't anymore. As much as I love Karma and I stuck with her through the unnecessary changes, nerfs, needless buffs, and kit destruction I can't anymore.

Literally I'm only clinging to league because of just Soraka at this point but her days are numbered too. I don't understand. Riot Karma is not nor ever will be popular. Stop it. It's just how things are in video games.

Prime example I main nothing but Draenei in wow because I love them. Compared to other races not many other people do. That's fine. But don't just shit on truly dedicated players for the sake of popularity that won't even amount to anything.

I don't even know why I'm wasting my time typing. Riot doesn't care, won't listen, and is digging a larger grave for itself day by day.

This is a fucking joke.

inplane4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Madam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j0AgmMV5,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-07-26T10:35:27.573+0000)

I can't anymore. As much as I love Karma and I stuck with her through the unnecessary changes, nerfs, needless buffs, and kit destruction I can't anymore.

Literally I'm only clinging to league because of just Soraka at this point but her days are numbered too. I don't understand. Riot Karma is not nor ever will be popular. Stop it. It's just how things are in video games.

Prime example I main nothing but Draenei in wow because I love them. Compared to other races not many other people do. That's fine. But don't just shit on truly dedicated players for the sake of popularity that won't even amount to anything.

I don't even know why I'm wasting my time typing. Riot doesn't care, won't listen, and is digging a larger grave for itself day by day.

This is a fucking joke.

Riot has been shitting on dedicated players for the past few years, but mostly in the past months. It's nothing new unfortunately. Riot wants equality, popularity, and an easy learning curve to all champions even though they've been screwing it up more with every patch.

IxtaliKing6 votes

I just find it funny that they know RE is the problem and refuse to tone it down or just straight up undo the buff. Nobody asked for that buff, mostly everyone was against it and they still went through with it. I don't know what to say tbh, when it comes to Karma Riot keeps me in a perpetual state of disappointment. It just feels like they are forcefully trying to change Karma's fan-base, because they have NEVER once listened to Karma fans, not even once.

Zedex5 votes

I'm not surprised they're nerfing her now, with all the steady buffs she received for awhile it was only a matter of time before she started getting better then other picks. She's always been frustrating to me as a player and personally the rework turned her into a Q spam bot, making her worse to play against.

CasterGilgamesh4 votes

i kinda liked old karma and she deff had a place in this game now...maybe not back then but now she would be considered very unique

HaloDragonX3 votes

Please stop having Kayle Syndrome jesus

No one NO ONE wanted shielding minions until we started complaining that they'd remove it.

Why would Karma be good at pushing? She's a mage. She already 1 shots waves with Q at certain APs. She shouldn't be a shield siege poke CC utility engage goddess.

So why nerf the shieild? Look at the itemization. Mid Karma either gets the support stuff and more AP (thus having the problems support has) or just getting a lot of AP and still having over baring shields. MEANWHILE support karma gets Grail, Ardent, Mikeals, Windspeakers even. And this makes the shield massive and absurd.

Meanwhile, who said a rank 1 shield with a 40-20 second cooldown ult needs to have 60% MS? That's a lot. Saying it didn't need a nerf would be stupid at this point.

She's a jack of trades. Poke, waveclear, % HP healing, shielding, movement speed modifier, snare, slow, ult at level 1. She got a useless and frustrating feature removed, well needed "ultimate" nerfs, and a nerf to her shield (because of the new shielding itemization). Stop acting like it's the end of the world and having Kayle Syndrome.

SilverSquid8 votes

No one NO ONE wanted shielding minions until we started complaining that they'd remove it.

I only need to find one Karma player to factually show you are wrong. Since I am a Karma player and I wanted it on Old Karma, 3.5-5.10 Karma and current Karma, you are wrong. That was surprisingly easy.

Why would Karma be good at pushing? She's a mage. She already 1 shots waves with Q at certain APs. She shouldn't be a shield siege poke CC utility engage goddess.

Her waveclear is medicore for midlaners. She needs to setup the wave properly, have the right amounts of AP, otherwise she only gets a part of it (I assume you meant RQ, not Q. Q only really oneshots casters most of the time). I agree on the last part though. But as you might have noticed, I keep asking Riot to narrow her down. But, like, they should do it on purpose. With a plan. Not randomly or accidentally.

Meanwhile, who said a rank 1 shield with a 40-20 second cooldown ult needs to have 60% MS? That's a lot. Saying it didn't need a nerf would be stupid at this point.

Is that why the boards were filled with people complaining about that speedboost for the past 3 years that she had it? Oh wait, there wasn't. It's a 1.5s speedboost for a semi ultimate. It's not that impressive. But you know what they could've done? Let the speedbost scale with mantra-levels instead. 40/50/55/60. That way it's not oppressive early game and doesn't imbalance the mantra spells.

She got a useless and frustrating feature removed, well needed "ultimate" nerfs, and a nerf to her shield (because of the new shielding itemization). Stop acting like it's the end of the world and having Kayle Syndrome.

She got skillchecks removed, while already lacking them to a big extent. It's not about power, it's about identity. If you read the thread you might've seen that I don't mind the numbers nerf and protested the 6.6 buff.

Her RE is currently so oppressive, because it doesn't need skill, can't be countered and is up nearly all the time. If there is no way it can go bad, it's always at its full potential, meaning free power at competitive levels. This is a symptom of her undirected and overbuffed nature.

Also calling it a useless feature is telling me you probably never played her.

And whatever that Kayle Syndrom is, you are talking about...

HaloDragonX1 votes

Kayle Syndrome is when people over react to a champion being changed, despite them needing changes. Acting as if its a big problem, when it isn't.

SilverSquid8 votes

Acting as if its a big problem, when it isn't.

Are you the person deciding how big of a problem it is?

And do you mind that the Karma community is kind of getting pissy, because Riot repeatedly shows no interest in actually adressing her, going out of their way of finding reasons not to include her in the mage update, to adress half of the enchanters to not be forced to adress her as an enchanter either, but keeps powershifting her into an increasingly bland version of herself with every life-balance-patch?

It's not that the minion-shielding removal is the biggest of problems. But it's a problem in a long row of problems that has its critique ignored. Which is the real problem.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

Is that why the boards were filled with people complaining about that speedboost for the past 3 years that she had it? Oh wait, there wasn't. It's a 1.5s speedboost for a semi ultimate. It's not that impressive. But you know what they could've done? Let the speedbost scale with mantra-levels instead. 40/50/55/60. That way it's not oppressive early game and doesn't imbalance the mantra spells.

Issue isn't that it's oppressive early game. Issue is that Karma gets the power as a support while maxing Q. Riot still wants her to be able to max E (that's what non-pro Karma supports do) and feel good about it.

SilverSquid4 votes

I realize that Riot dislikes Karma providing two opposite sides. It's not like duality is kind of her point or something. So who cares if she isn't a poke/ shield support anymore and instead becomes a more powerful shield-support? Karma players should be grateful for all the buffs. Shield and damage just doesn't go together.

/sarcasm off

This is getting kind of ridiculous now. First overbuffing her RE and then complaining that Karma has this powerful tool while maxing Q. Because she is supposed to have 3 options with her mantra, right? Or do we really want to go back to her to only having one mantra option in lane.... or are we there already?

The Yetii Rider1 votes

She still has a powerful shield while maxing Q. Mantra increases Defiance's shield by quite a substantial amount, and multiplying it by 5 for how many champs it hits makes it insane value even with only one rank.

She can't have a super high speed boost with giant poke, no. That makes her too valuable in poke compositions. Again, this is ONLY about the top 0.003% of the player base, the ones who get a salary to play Karma.

SilverSquid1 votes

Super high speed boost? Have you played Zilean/Lulu recently? It's a short burst of speed and compared with other speedboost in the game (that can target allies) both on the short and low end. Only Bard technically has a straight up weaker speedup, because it decays.

You know, I would just prefer if they didn't buff her numbers to nerf her features. I mean, it's like they would buff Nami's W damage until it would hurt too much to also heal, so they would remove the heal. You know, because she can't have super high damage and a heal!.... it just doesn't make sense....

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

Super high speed boost? Have you played Zilean/Lulu recently? It's a short burst of speed and compared with other speedboost in the game (that can target allies) both on the short and low end.

That's ridiculous and you know it. If you're going to seriously compare a single target speed boost to an AOE speed boost when discussing balance, then you clearly don't care as much about Karma as I thought you did. Compare it to other AOE speed boosts, like Nami's Tidal Wave (can miss, only gives a flat 120 MS + 40% AP, costs 100 mana, can't be used before level 6, CD 120/110/100) or Sona's Song of Celerity (incredibly short range, doesn't target everyone at the same time, only gives 14% move speed for 3 seconds).

SilverSquid1 votes

I was assuming you were talking about E because you said "giant poke" (RQ) and high speedboost (E). You know, because RQ and RE are kind of exclusive. Inferring from that missunderstanding that I care less about Karma is kind of weird.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

You can use them together (Soulfire and Defiance) and before this patch, Defiance would have been just as strong of a speed boost with only one rank in it. The option to switch between giant poke and a huge AOE speed boost may be the point of Karma, but it's also ripe for abuse in the early game for pro players.

Mantra's flexibility is core to Karma's thematic. More and more, Riot is realizing that thematic is not healthy for the game.

SilverSquid1 votes

The option to switch between giant poke and a huge AOE speed boost may be the point of Karma,

It should never have been. When the shieldbomb was still about damage, you could fail its application so much, because you could never get the full power out of the shield, speed and damage. But now it's too easy to get all the power out of shield/speed, so yes, it's ripe for abuse.

Mantra's flexibility is core to Karma's thematic. More and more, Riot is realizing that thematic is not healthy for the game.

The mistake came in when they tried to make it ultimates instead of the resource mantra used to be. Because she must have game changing moments. Well, k. We can see where it got us.

Keepe2 votes

Personally, I always preferred old Karma. She was fun.

sparkytoast2 votes

Honestly, I never play karma. but there's one thing I've thought of when I first saw the complaints about this.

why not allow her to mantra e minions, without giving them a shield? it removes the minion denial aspect riot seems to hate, but still allows you to get the extended range.

now correct me if I'm wrong, but can't lulu cast pix on allied minions without the shield? its been forever since I've tried it, but it wouldn't be any different than that.

TNHA Baritone2 votes

What if we gave Mantra **unique * *empowers / mechanics :)

Hell wouldnt even mind if they gave it a mana cost or took it away at level 1

LatetotheRace1 votes

"Riot is taking away uniqueness and mastery from an already bland champion." Riot is trying to appeal to disgustingly casual gamers. Thus mechanics have to disappear. I think Karma's main problem (as well with Lux Zyra AnnieLulu ) Is her tendency to play both mid and support. Riot is then forced to balance them for play in both lanes. If a certain role was decided then they could be made much more healthy and distinct.

Erockandroll2 votes

{quoted}

"Riot is taking away uniqueness and mastery from an already bland champion." Riot is trying to appeal to disgustingly casual gamers. Thus mechanics have to disappear. I think Karma's main problem (as well with Lux Zyra AnnieLulu ) Is her tendency to play both mid and support. Riot is then forced to balance them for play in both lanes. If a certain role was decided then they could be made much more healthy and distinct.

You do realize that why the Karma fans have a problem with the changes. (Since she has that duality, fans are going to be split.)

But I disagree in general, Cause regardless of whether they are solo or Duo, their kits don't really change. Arguably a Mid lane anything, is going to be more potent than their support counterpart. (Whether that's damage or Utility) But that usually doesn't change the champions role in the team comp. Karma will still shield and engage, (and poke), Annie still has her bear.

And people point out that these nerfs, disrupt Karma's duality, simply because the Shielding a minion affects her ability to solo lane. (some what skeptical on that claim) But I think the real issue is that Riot is going to remove any mechanic that is Abusive, or could become abusive. Thinking it was an unnecessary power in her kit. They could have simply toned down her numbers, if they found her win rate to be a problem. But instead, they removed a potentually problematic mechanic, which inherently removed a unique mechanic.

Last comment about duality, The only reason it would be a problem in the pro scene, is if that flex pick completely screws with the opponents ability to counter pick. (But if that was the case, duality would have been trashed a long time ago)

inplane2 votes

{quoted}

You do realize that why the Karma fans have a problem with the changes. (Since she has that duality, fans are going to be split.)

But I disagree in general, Cause regardless of whether they are solo or Duo, their kits don't really change. Arguably a Mid lane anything, is going to be more potent than their support counterpart. (Whether that's damage or Utility) But that usually doesn't change the champions role in the team comp. Karma will still shield and engage, (and poke), Annie still has her bear.

And people point out that these nerfs, disrupt Karma's duality, simply because the Shielding a minion affects her ability to solo lane. (some what skeptical on that claim) But I think the real issue is that Riot is going to remove any mechanic that is Abusive, or could become abusive. Thinking it was an unnecessary power in her kit. They could have simply toned down her numbers, if they found her win rate to be a problem. But instead, they removed a potentually problematic mechanic, which inherently removed a unique mechanic.

Last comment about duality, The only reason it would be a problem in the pro scene, is if that flex pick completely screws with the opponents ability to counter pick. (But if that was the case, duality would have been trashed a long time ago)

The thing is Duality was trashed long time ago lol. They got rid of Ryze's "Desperate Power" and Old Karma's "Inner Flame". For what reason? As you stated, probably because of the pro scene. They also turned Karma's Mantra into a Heimerdinger ult. It's concept of giving inverted effects was trashed completely in favour of making her have an "identity".

IxtaliKing4 votes

And people point out that these nerfs, disrupt Karma's duality, simply because the Shielding a minion affects her ability to solo lane. (some what skeptical on that claim)

I don't believe anyone has ever said that Karma's duality was anything to do with her minion shielding. When people talk Karma's duality they are referring to her original theme and having double sided abilities, not minion shielding or functioning in two lanes.

But I think the real issue is that Riot is going to remove any mechanic that is Abusive, or could become abusive. Thinking it was an unnecessary power in her kit. They could have simply toned down her numbers, if they found her win rate to be a problem. But instead, they removed a potentually problematic mechanic, which inherently removed a unique mechanic.

This would be fine and there would be a lot less complaints if they hadn't taken away all of her other unique elements, she has nothing unique left, literally nothing.

Hige1 votes

I have an unpopular opinion for you buddy, the one who has no idea about what Karma is supposed to do, is you :S and the community who keep requesting over and over her duality.

Karma is doing exactly what she was designed to do, empowering her QWE skills to be more potent versions of themselves, her name has absolutely nothing to do with what she's supposed to do, Kindred doesn't have children all over the place and makes her own race of goat-wolf kids, Karma isn't some sort of divine punishment religion either, so there you go.

I think Meddler is right though, her kit is bland but that doesn't mean they'll take the duality approach or the "Karma" approach or even adding her fans back, it means that she'll be spiced up on the gameplay front, more specifically, Meddler said that her W is the most boring part of her kit so they'll probably just rework that one but always keeping in mind Karma's gameplay concept, you have a base skill and mantra amplifies it, that's it, he has never said that her gameplay direction is wrong or that her theme isn't showing, her theme IS there and when you play Karma you know you are playing Karma, it just so happen to be really one dimentional.

Edit: I also want to bring to your attention Sona's recent changes, Sona was considered a bland champion as well, a weak one for that, unlike Karma which happens to be currently really powerful. What they did to Sona was changing her passive from her ult, THIS is what made her a fun champion to play (and an overpowered one as well) you become this spammy type of mage in late game, you are a threat that scales!

This is the type of change you can expect for Karma, not duality, not fans, not "Karma" things.

SilverSquid1 votes

I have an unpopular opinion for you buddy

I think people with unpopular opinions need to be heard the most. Otherwise people tend to get rather hive-mindy. And I will defend your right to do so, even if I disagree. Which I happen to do. A lot. Let's go!

the one who has no idea about what Karma is supposed to do, is you :S

I have a good idea about what I want Karma to be. But I must admit that I have no idea what Riot wants Karma to be.

Karma is doing exactly what she was designed to do, empowering her QWE skills to be more potent versions of themselves

Mantra used to give abilities an additional opposite effect. The straight-up-upgrade-ult is Heimer's stick, the copy-ability-ult is LeBlanc's thing, the redo-a-better-version-ult is Rengar's trick. Due to her passive and being on all abilities, Mantra is Karma defining feature. It's not very good for a champion's identity to be a more frequent Heimer with shields instead of turrets.

her name has absolutely nothing to do with what she's supposed to do

Have you played Karma before her rework? Have you not noticed hints towards Buddha, Asian culture, her turnaround passive, her missing%hp heal, the yin-yang colors of her skirt, her Geisha-esque face paint? Don't you think her name kind of fitted the theme, compared to what it does today?

I don't think a champion must have a name that exactly expresses what they are, but this is just one symptom of Karma's lost identity.

when you play Karma you know you are playing Karma, it just so happen to be really one dimentional.

You see, the sad part about that is, that Karma used to be one of the most complex champions in LoL.

And I agree with that W analysis. But whenever I try to rework it, it's just so.... hard....to do.... anything....with it.

Hige1 votes

Thank you for not lashing out, I know Karma tends to be a delicate subject around here. I think it's incredibly commendable that you admit that you want a direction for Karma to be taken to instead of ranting about how she was changed, even though, you are obviously upset for that, you take it for what it is, so, that's great.

On Mantra: I like how you lay it out, I honestly haven't thought about it this way since for me Karma was always the same, even before her rework but I'll expand on that a bit later. You are right in wanting her gameplay to be more distinct from Heim and Leblanc's and now that you mention it, Heim does a WAY better job at being the champion whose ult improves his basic skills, maybe not in the same cadence as Karma, but yeah. Points for you!

On her Rework: Yes I played her quite a bit back then, she was the first champion with a support kit since Sona and at the time that was a loooooooong ass time, also, she was the last champion released with a price of 1350 IP.

I don't really see the "asian" culture on any of her models (except sakura, obviosly), you see, Geishas don't paint their eyes with tears like she does and their most iconic feature is their overly white face, Karma did not and does not have this, even though she did wear something akin to a kimono, akin because Kimonos are traditionally layered cloth which karma didn't have and the most prominent part of it is the obi (belt) on the waist which Karma didn't have either. Fans are weapons atributed to Geishas, I'll give you that

Nothing from Buddhism either since she looks quite like the highborn lady and nothing like a monk but perhaps some mannerisms from hinduism like wearing intrincated jewelry and her obvious indian features but that's as Asian as she goes.

The yin yang colors are nothing but black and white, nothing else, as a matter of fact, she also used to wear quite some red, I must remind you though, that Riot used to work under the cool factor, if it looked cool then they used it, you can see this on old champions like Pantheon, Akali and Garen, these three are as generic as they can be and Karma was nothing but the result of someone saying: "Hey! black and white! let's mix it up!" I find it incredibly amazing though, how a champion identity isn't just what the people who creates it intends, say if Garen was changed today to a black and white garment people would say that he wasn't supposed to be ying/yang ish even though Riot would have intended so, which brings me to my next point.

Karma was throughoutly changed visually for her rework, this is the clearest clue that says that Riot didn't see her as a duality champion, coupled with her lore, Karma was and always has been an inspiring force on Ionia, she never wanted revenge or payback, as a matter of fact, her character says the exact opposite of revenge, which is fighting through inner strenght and looking for peace at any cost.

Her name does fit the theme you suggest but we are talking here about interpretation; a blank canvas on a gallery can be interpreted as art but is it? did the artist intend it to be so or did he simply forgot he hung that piece in there and people are going nuts over a blank piece on a gallery?

On her W: Yes it is incredibly difficult to find something that works well, I think this is part of why Riot haven't made mechanical changes to Karma, they require quite a bit of time and honestly she's not in that bad of a spot :S

More importantly, this skill is the one that refutes the duality thing and shows that Karma's gameplay was always centered on incresing the effect of her skills, in the past, RW simply made the haste/slow more powerful, as today it makes the cc, longer. Q didn't loose it's damage in order to heal, it simply acquired the effect ON TOP of the damage, same for E.

Now as I stated, It could be interesting to see a Karma that wasn't heim 2.support, but you gotta think of the intricacies that such a kit would entail.

SilverSquid3 votes

I think it's incredibly commendable that you admit that you want a direction for Karma to be taken to instead of ranting about how she was changed, even though, you are obviously upset for that, you take it for what it is, so, that's great.

I personally did see room for improvement on Old Karma, so I welcomed Riot's attempt of reworking her. Even though they lacked ressources and time, I found 3.5 Karma still enjoyable. In the end I am not emotionally invested in visuals, and her gameplay did get an upgrade. Kind of. It lost complexity though, while adding slightly more mechanical depth.

What I am trying to say is this: I think Old Karma wasn't perfect and I don't think New Karma is either. So I see two paths and try to make another, between ;)

Points for you!

I find it incredible how positive, honest and thoughtful you are. It weirds me out that I can actually have a proper, productive discussion on the boards, but I do enjoy it. Props to you, man!

the most prominent part of it is the obi (belt) on the waist which Karma didn't have either. Fans are weapons atributed to Geishas, I'll give you that

Well, I knew she wasn't supposed to be one (maybe that one skin came before and they changed it to something more... unique... like how Jhin's Cowboy skin was his original thing), that's why I said.... Geisha-esque. I just noticed similarities. I didn't want to make it look like I thought she was one.

I don't really see the "asian" culture on any of her models

I wasn't really talking about her model. But like, the enlightened one is a direkt hint towards Budda, her passive symbol was literally just a recolored Yin-Yang symbol, mantras, the path in between is a direct reference to buddhism, so do these "ONWARD ALWAYS", "TO CONQUER ONESELF IS TO CONQUER ALL", "PEACE BEGINS WITHIN", and 'I INTERRUPTED MY MEDITATION FOR THIS?"

She still wears the double dragons in her crest, which hint towards Ouruboros, the dragon who bites its tail, the origin of both yin-yang and infinitiy symbol.

I could go on, but you can probably see the point.

The yin yang colors are nothing but black and white, nothing else,

Wait, gimme a second. Here's RiotRunaan commenting on the color change.

"Yes, her outfit is a huge change, and I do understand how the old black and white color scheme communicated the duality of her theme. However, the black and white color scheme--the "yin yang" color scheme--is very much based in the real world and not the world of Runeterra. (...) We wanted to build Karma OUT of our setting rather than build her INTO our setting. That said, Ionia's colors are not just red and white. I know Irelia stands out, but she's a very militaristic and revolutionary character. Karma has a lot of muted purples--a softer take on the "dark" side of Ionia, like Syndra, and the gold you'll see in traditional Ionia...."

So this comment and the yin-yang in her passive makes me believe the black-white was no coincidence or merely the fan's interpretation.

Karma was throughoutly changed visually for her rework, this is the clearest clue that says that Riot didn't see her as a duality champion,

Which is what I am critisizing. I don't know why there aren't any duality champions in League currently and I haven't heard good arguments yet why there shouldn't be. Other games have them and they work rather well. Maybe I am missing something, but I pity and critisize that Riot didn't make/keep her a duality champ. I think they are missing out, on a design level.

, in the past, RW simply made the haste/slow more powerful, as today it makes the cc, longer.

On the first part: Old RQ did damage/heal Old RW did slow/speedup Old RE did shield/damage I did find the duality in all of the mantra'd ability, even though RW was kind of cheating.

On the second part; This is a highly critisized part of the 5.10 rework. The increased root wasn't asked for, isn't needed, doesn't benefit her, conflicts with her theme up to that point and threw the mantras into the inbalance they suffer from today. When it (self)healed and dealt damage it was a great trading tool and damage/heal was at least somewhat dualistic. This in addition to the removal of shieldbomb - karma's trademark damagespell - were the lows of this touchup. They also started this trend of overbuffing single parts of her kit, which lead us to today.

Now as I stated, It could be interesting to see a Karma that wasn't heim 2.support, but you gotta think of the intricacies that such a kit would entail.

I don't know if you have the time, but this is what my last rework (that I linked in my previous comment) was about.

Thanks for your input and stuff tho. It is really enjoyable to read an open minded person that can straight up disagree, provide insight and further the discussion without being negative in any way. Really. Thanks!

Hige2 votes

Wow that comment from Runaan I never read, I think that it goes in line with what I was saying though, Current Karma is the same Karma, like, they took the obvious black and white thing and made it into its runeterran translation, so in reality, seeing current karma should translate to black and white in the eyes of a runeterran or Ionian.

I think we kinda do have dual champions, but not as obvious as you'd like, on my other post I talked about Lulu, who happens to be quite the dual champion. "Duality" is kind of a support thing, Karma does have duality in the form that she has damage and defense.

Her twin dragons does remind me of a yin yang, I guess I missed that... actually, now that I remember, her old passive was in fact a yin yang (here! no wonder everyone wonders what happened to that! Now the twin dragons could be the same thing translated to runeterran so that's that.

I did read your rework and I believe we had a couple words in there as well, mostly the same we have had here, it's interesting nevertheless how your vision would shape karma and I think it'd be an equally interesting (but hard to balance) approach.

I was thinking about RW during the whole day haha, I think that the damage paradigm she had before is incredibly interesting and they should try to revisit a version of W that leashes allies... maybe it could have 2 casts? one could root the enemy and the other could empower the ally attacks (kinda like nami, but for the duration of the leash) when mantra'd you would give your ally a part of your hp (it'd break at 10% hp) and for the enemy target you would sap life towards yourself.

This would turn her back into a healer though and that comes with some damage changes.

SilverSquid2 votes

Current Karma is the same Karma,

I think that's what they tried, I don't think they succeeded.

on my other post I talked about Lulu, who happens to be quite the dual champion.

Yeah, it's kind of a shame that Lulu's abilities currently feature more duality than Karma's abilities. But I sometimes think people get the duality aspect wrong. In western society we think of duality like black-and-white. Two polar opposites on different ends of the world. The asian duality is more like a single coin with two sides. Just two sides of the same thing, that you need to understand both to prosper. As such, it's more fitting for one ability with opposite effects. Going alongside the buddhistic teachings, you must realize the value of these opposites to find fullfillment; you need to find situations in which to use both sides of an ability, to maximize its use. Karma was unique in this, as she featured spells that needed to hit as many allies and enemies at the same time.

Currently, only Ezreal's W is doing something like it, and it's neither opposites, nor really does it fit him that well. Karma has drifted into a trinity aspect, with her very different mantra abilities, that all seem to only feature a single goal now. And as such, feature too much build variance that leaves the single builds lacking. Or oppressive, if buffed to proper values. Which leads us to today., where she is an unthematic, uninspired blob of stats, no more different to Sona, Lulu or Nami, as you pointed out. Well, Nami has her W which is more dualistic than Karma as a whole. Ugh.

I did read your rework and I believe we had a couple words in there as well, mostly the same we have had here

I am sorry, after a year on here I still only manage to remember 3-4 names.

This would turn her back into a healer though and that comes with some damage changes.

Theorycrafting I like. I would personally prefer her to be a healer (enchanter) over having CC (disruptor). It's more fitting, imo. Damage&protection. Similarly, I'd like range (artillery) go and come up with more sustained damage options (battlemage). This is also one of the reasons people don't recognize her as much; the 3.5 rework added 2 mage identities to the other two, seemingly watering down her overall identity, instead of shaping it (what her visual rework did way better, at least in my opinion).

Current RW is unthematic, unsynergetic, unreliable and somewhat boring, as is W as a whole. Current RQ is a mistake from an identity perspective. Current RE was butchered in 5.10 and isn't even the shadow of the iconic spell she once had.

I am away for 5 days, so don't get confused if I go silent :)

Hige1 votes

haha dont worry about not remembering me, I was surprised to see that you were the same person on that thread but I realized that only after opening it!

Now I only can comment on her RQ, I don't think it was a mistake honestly, they kinda shifted a lot of power in there but the reason for this is basically because she lost her old passive (I'll expalin this a bit later), getting hurt wasn't making her more powerful anymore, so a close range damaging skill was a no go because you'd get hurt trying to deal damage without having a mechanic to rely on, in the past it was the heal on Q but instead of keeping a lesser version of the heal on a mid range skill, they went up to 11 and gave her long range and stripped the heal, because in game range works as a defensive mechanic as does healing, so she technically doesn't need to heal back the damage she receives because she receives none if she's far away... It's a bit hard to grasp and I hope I explained it correctly but the bread and butter of this is...

The removal of her passive

This is probably the point where most Karma players disagree with Riot (and me xD), the bottom line is that inner flame (more AP the less HP) had to go and this was probably the catalyst that started Karma's rework on the first place, it's basically a bad mechanic to have on any champion because of the way AP works, the versions of this mechanic are held by:

  • Olaf who gains AS the less HP
  • Tryndamere who gains AD the less HP
  • Ryze at some point along the history of the game he held Karma's same old passive of more AP the less HP, it was removed for the same reasons that Karma's was removed though.

The thing is though that AD and AP have different power curves:

  • AD is a more stable line with small peaks of power determined by a rate, this rate is what we know as attack speed, also, the peaks will double its size at times given there's some critical chance around.
  • AP on the other hand has huge peaks of power because its cadence tends to be way more spaced out because of cooldowns, you can increase your dps by building CDR but the cooldown on your skills will still keep you away from your damage as so does mana

What happens with Inner Flame and Desperate Power (Ryze's passive at some point) is that it throws the peak on AP damage super high IF you're low on HP and since the cadence on AP damage is more spaced out no matter what, players had to intentionally lower their HP in order to optimize the damage on these champions, basically it was counter intuitive, you had to almost die to get the best out of your passive.

Now this is true on Olaf and Tryndamere too but both of them have something that keeps them alive thanks to their AD nature, Life steal. You may argue that Spell vamp works too but in reality the effectiveness of spell vamp is also held on the weak side because of AP's huge peaks of power, if spell vamp becomes effective, burst mages will heal themselves way too much so it HAS to be low.

I'm also not sure about this but I think that Karma's shield pushed you away from your passive's big numbers, so if you wanted to utilize your big damage, you HAD to be almost dead, now in the case that it didn't, it would mean that your shield was reserved to yourself only which kind of defeats the purpose of a support... so you had to choose, you either potentially died trying to optimize your damage or you kept yourself alive and let most of your team die, also healing and doing damage at the same time was crazy HARD, getting a full team heal was almost impossible and much MUCH harder was to deal damage and heal as well.

So in the end, you had to make some crazy choices but in order to use Karma to an acceptable rate you needed almost every stat, AP to make your stuff hit/shield harder, CDR/mana so that you wouldn't get caught on cooldown/oom while on low hp, HP and defenses so that you wouldn't blow up before you could use your best case scenario... it was crazy, that passive had to go.

Nowadays though with the new items and stuff, maybe it could work?, not very sure about that but currently reaching 45% cdr with high mana and some nice AP numbers isn't all that hard, so I wouldn't be surprised if in the future Riot explored bringing it back on Karma herself or another champion.

Sorry for the wall of text... didnt really intend to make it this long D:

SilverSquid2 votes

Now I only can comment on her RQ, I don't think it was a mistake honestly, (...) getting hurt wasn't making her more powerful anymore, so a close range damaging skill was a no go because you'd get hurt trying to deal damage without having a mechanic to rely on,

Reworked Karma has movespeed, shield and a powerful selfheal. All the tools she needs to be a good battlemage. But then they'd slap an ability on there that thrives in long range. This was a mistake. Maybe range is a safety, yes, but then they shouldn't have given her an ability (W), that thrives in close range. Giving a battlemage long range is defeating its purpose and buffs its weakness instead of highlighting it. It confuses the player where to play her and the enemy how to counter her. Since historically Karma was a battlemage and she had and probably can again take a unique spot as battlemage/enchanter, they should've gone with a damage ability that is better or more reliable in short ranges.

Not that her old Q was perfect, but for this purpose it was better.

both of them have something that keeps them alive thanks to their AD nature, Life steal. You may argue that Spell vamp works too but in reality the effectiveness of spell vamp is also held on the weak side because of AP's huge peaks of power, if spell vamp becomes effective, burst mages will heal themselves way too much so it HAS to be low.

I liked your argument until you brought up lifesteal/spellvamp. Karma had both a selfheal and a powerful shield to play around low hp. She arguably had more control over her low hp than Tryndamere and Olaf do. I don't want to defend her old passive mechanically, but I always try to make something out of it, because it's interesting thematically.

I don't think Olaf's passive is well designed either, the same goes for Irelia. An enrage passive that procs on low hp (similar to LeBlanc's passive) that gives burst of power for a short time might make more sense for Olaf. And visually hard to dicern CC reduction on Irelia is both problematic and her kit doesn't really need it. It just craps on counterplay.

if you wanted to utilize your big damage, you HAD to be almost dead, now in the case that it didn't, it would mean that your shield was reserved to yourself only which kind of defeats the purpose of a support

She wasn't designed to be a support. She wasn't designed to be anything. Or maybe just a "mage that can help" or something. Her AP dependency made her unfit as support (at certain ELO) and her low counterplay problematic as a sololaner. However, I don't think there was anything wrong with staying at closer proximity to your allies and possible danger, dancing around at the edges of battle, to maybe take some damage and maximise the shielding and healing you provide.

A battlemage enchanter would and should do exactly that and I'd love to see it again.

Hige1 votes

A battlemage enchanter sounds interesting but... well, that's kind of Taric's thing? I guess you could argue that you could have 2 versions for every role, ranged and melee, with Karma being the ranged version.

Yeah she did have a powerful selfheal but that's exactly the problem, if you healed yourself to a quarter hp you were losing damage :S Tryndamere and Olaf work because they can stay very very low while dishing some damage, now if Karma could somehow stay low, say 10%, she could have used her passive a lot better but as an enchanter, you kinda thrive from having BIG heals (even moreso at the moment that iteration existed).

I'd say that it can be done though, current RW is quite good at staying somewhat low but she doesn't have that passive anymore so :x

SilverSquid2 votes

A battlemage enchanter sounds interesting but... well, that's kind of Taric's thing?

Taric features natural tankiness, CC, heal and protection, trademarks of Warden (defensive Tanks). Since most abilities also enhance his ally, though, and thrives in duo lanes, he has been classified as Enchanter/Warden hybrid.

Karma could feature damage and survivability akin to Swain, Vlad and Ryze, but focus on enhancing on supporting allies from a close distance and staying in the middle of the fight.

If you are uncertain about the subclasses and their definitions, check out these sites:

if you healed yourself to a quarter hp you were losing damage

A tradeoff that you had to consider at all time, yes. This is why Karma felt very heavy on understanding every situation she was in and making the right decisions. This kind of made up for her lack of mechanical depth. It was interesting to have a very knowledge based champion that, not coincidentally, was also all about wisdom and enlightenment.

as an enchanter, you kinda thrive from having BIG heals

It's true that all Enchanters feature a heal of some kind, it doesn't have to be big. Bard comes to mind. As for Karma: A champion with a shield and a heal probably shouldn't have strong heals anyways. Karma as an emergency healer (missing%hp) instead of sustainer makes sense tho.

I'd say that it can be done though, current RW is quite good at staying somewhat low but she doesn't have that passive anymore so :x

And her current passive is both lackluster and unthematic. Aaaaaand I really dislike current RW, especially with it's huge delay and bonus root.

inplane1 votes

{quoted}

I have an unpopular opinion for you buddy, the one who has no idea about what Karma is supposed to do, is you :S and the community who keep requesting over and over her duality.

Karma is doing exactly what she was designed to do, empowering her QWE skills to be more potent versions of themselves, her name has absolutely nothing to do with what she's supposed to do, Kindred doesn't have children all over the place and makes her own race of goat-wolf kids, Karma isn't some sort of divine punishment religion either, so there you go.

I think Meddler is right though, her kit is bland but that doesn't mean they'll take the duality approach or the "Karma" approach or even adding her fans back, it means that she'll be spiced up on the gameplay front, more specifically, Meddler said that her W is the most boring part of her kit so they'll probably just rework that one but always keeping in mind Karma's gameplay concept, you have a base skill and mantra amplifies it, that's it, he has never said that her gameplay direction is wrong or that her theme isn't showing, her theme IS there and when you play Karma you know you are playing Karma, it just so happen to be really one dimentional.

Edit: I also want to bring to your attention Sona's recent changes, Sona was considered a bland champion as well, a weak one for that, unlike Karma which happens to be currently really powerful. What they did to Sona was changing her passive from her ult, THIS is what made her a fun champion to play (and an overpowered one as well) you become this spammy type of mage in late game, you are a threat that scales!

This is the type of change you can expect for Karma, not duality, not fans, not "Karma" things.

Maybe Riot wasn't thinking right when they reworked her, but you are so wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin. There's a reason why Karma is named Karma. Her old kit did exactly what she was called and it was completely intended. That's what she was supposed to be until they "reworked" her into a new champion with the same name slapped on, thinking it wouldn't hurt anyone since barely anyone got the hang of Karma.

Hige1 votes

I'd like you to show me the evidence that says that I'm wrong, because my friend, I have evidence that states the exact opposite of what you think Karma is, take a look at Karma's history of changes, at her old and new lore, at her judgement, at her old and new visuals and at the history of Riot with champions and how old champions are being integrated into the new environment of the game, the interpretation of Karma having a name after the universal force is nothing but player added flavor.

Also, her old kit didn't have anything dual about her because the spell didn't change purpose, the effect was added ON TOP of the skill, so Q didn't just heal, it increased its damage, E didn't just dealt damage, it had a crazy huge shield value too, and W was never about duality EVEN when mantra'ed.

inplane1 votes

{quoted}

I'd like you to show me the evidence that says that I'm wrong, because my friend, I have evidence that states the exact opposite of what you think Karma is, take a look at Karma's history of changes, at her old and new lore, at her judgement, at her old and new visuals and at the history of Riot with champions and how old champions are being integrated into the new environment of the game, the interpretation of Karma having a name after the universal force is nothing but player added flavor.

Also, her old kit didn't have anything dual about her because the spell didn't change purpose, the effect was added ON TOP of the skill, so Q didn't just heal, it increased its damage, E didn't just dealt damage, it had a crazy huge shield value too, and W was never about duality EVEN when mantra'ed.

She was the definition of a hurt and heal character. That's what she was and it shows through her abilities. Her Q healed allies and hurt enemies. Her W punished enemies and helped teammates. Her E was self explanatory.

Her old passive was what made her Karma. The more enemies hurt her, the harder she'd swing back at them. It's the "What goes around comes around" saying that they incorporated into her kit and personality. They didn't just put the passive there randomly. Yes. Her Mantra was still an empowering skill that added things on top, but it gave inverted effects that effected allies and enemies alike, something her current Mantra does not do. That is what stinks and really takes the "Karmic" theme away from Karma.

Believe it or not, Karma was reworked by one of Riot's new employees. It was more of a test run for Scarizard since Karma was not very valued by anyone except for the few players she had. Whether the rework failed or not, Scarizard still got his practice and would've eventually moved onto Rengar (Good lord those were the dark days).

Hige1 votes

I'll do something I don't like, but for the sake of this discussion I think it can be better to break down your points:

She was the definition of a hurt and heal character

Sona is the definition of a hurt and heal character, so is Nami, Taric, Kayle and Alistar, this is the identity of a healer support (soraka not that much but she does damage too. somewhat), not Karma's. This is the main point why I disagree, every single support has "duality" in their kit, get too close to Sona and she'll CC and burst you down, get too close to Nami and she'll slow till you die.

Her old passive was what made her Karma. The more enemies hurt her, the harder she'd swing back at them. It's the "What goes around comes around"

Back in the day, the best case scenario for Karma wasn't specifically "hit me and I'll swing back" actually, Karma was one of the few supports who were being encouraged to be aggressive, her Q was specially good at this since it had low range and it healed you based on your missing hp. It was more like "if you don't hit me, I'll hit you until you do and when you do, I'll hit you even harder than before".

Her Mantra was still an empowering skill that added things on top, but it gave inverted effects that effected allies and enemies alike, something her current Mantra does not do. That is what stinks and really takes the "Karmic" theme away from Karma.

I understand your frustration here but understand that currently we have a lot of champions who can do this "allies and enemies alike" thing, Lulu is the epitome of this, Sona also does it with her auras empowering her allies and her powerchord doing something to an enemy, even Soraka used to have mana restore/nuke as her E and damage/MR shred as her Q. Again, not only Karma's theme since Sona came before her and Soraka is one of the original 40 champions.

Read her old lore and judgement and you'll realize there's nothing karmic about karma herself and on the gameplay front you gotta realize that one thing is how we can theorycraft but another very different is how the champion plays out, for example, Ekko, he was designed to be a mage assassin and he ended up being the best tank. You see Karma as a "Karmic" champion, but in reality she was (and is) the biggest bully in lane there ever was, even more so than her current form.

Believe it or not, Karma was reworked by one of Riot's new employees.

Here is where prejudice warps the discussion. Scarizard, while maybe a new employee at the time, was more than fit to do the rework on Karma, in fact, Scarizard isn't the only person behind the Karma rework since it is known that Riot works in groups and considering that Karma had a visual update and new VO and animations, I can tell you that Karma's direction isn't entirely his doing.

If you take a look at my whole post, you'll see that not only I try to prove to you that Karma's theme isn't the one you state but also the conclusion on my paragraphs are applicable to current Karma, this is because old Karma is the EXACT same Karma we have today, a big lane bully who still has the so called "duality" every and all support has and also can affect her allies as much as her enemies. Karma is the same champion she ever was, minus the things that confused players into thinking that she was supposed to be some walking yin yang.

inplane2 votes

{quoted}

I'll do something I don't like, but for the sake of this discussion I think it can be better to break down your points:

Sona is the definition of a hurt and heal character, so is Nami, Taric, Kayle and Alistar, this is the identity of a healer support (soraka not that much but she does damage too. somewhat), not Karma's. This is the main point why I disagree, every single support has "duality" in their kit, get too close to Sona and she'll CC and burst you down, get too close to Nami and she'll slow till you die.

Back in the day, the best case scenario for Karma wasn't specifically "hit me and I'll swing back" actually, Karma was one of the few supports who were being encouraged to be aggressive, her Q was specially good at this since it had low range and it healed you based on your missing hp. It was more like "if you don't hit me, I'll hit you until you do and when you do, I'll hit you even harder than before".

I understand your frustration here but understand that currently we have a lot of champions who can do this "allies and enemies alike" thing, Lulu is the epitome of this, Sona also does it with her auras empowering her allies and her powerchord doing something to an enemy, even Soraka used to have mana restore/nuke as her E and damage/MR shred as her Q. Again, not only Karma's theme since Sona came before her and Soraka is one of the original 40 champions.

Read her old lore and judgement and you'll realize there's nothing karmic about karma herself and on the gameplay front you gotta realize that one thing is how we can theorycraft but another very different is how the champion plays out, for example, Ekko, he was designed to be a mage assassin and he ended up being the best tank. You see Karma as a "Karmic" champion, but in reality she was (and is) the biggest bully in lane there ever was, even more so than her current form.

Here is where prejudice warps the discussion. Scarizard, while maybe a new employee at the time, was more than fit to do the rework on Karma, in fact, Scarizard isn't the only person behind the Karma rework since it is known that Riot works in groups and considering that Karma had a visual update and new VO and animations, I can tell you that Karma's direction isn't entirely his doing.

If you take a look at my whole post, you'll see that not only I try to prove to you that Karma's theme isn't the one you state but also the conclusion on my paragraphs are applicable to current Karma, this is because old Karma is the EXACT same Karma we have today, a big lane bully who still has the so called "duality" every and all support has and also can affect her allies as much as her enemies. Karma is the same champion she ever was, minus the things that confused players into thinking that she was supposed to be some walking yin yang.

Everyone to their own I guess. I just don't see Karma as Karma ever since they reworked her and first played her back in 2012/2013. I just don't feel that her skills and theme reflects what she's meant to be even after reading your points. She was a different kind of hurt/heal to me. Different points of view lol.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by SilverSquid

A Detailed Post on Karma and her Twin Dragons
Gameplay299 comments
329
votes
What's so Karma about Karma?
Gameplay122 comments
80
votes
The Karma Changes Are Missing the Point. Here Is why!
Gameplay131 comments
72
votes
Why Karma Needs to Be Worked on
Gameplay136 comments
71
votes
Karma - Forever a Divided Community?
Gameplay85 comments
63
votes
Quick Fix for Karma
Gameplay58 comments
62
votes