I can see where you are coming from, but getting marksmen out of the Meta will be super hard.

ArnoldSchwarzens·Dec 23, 2016·44 votes·2,977 views

Consider this - the Marksman Support combination has been mandatory for this game for over five years. And the last time Riot has tried to change something about this Mordekaiser botlane happened.

I'm with you guys, I'm sick of seeing them every game but you have to recognize that without a super careful well planned approach, Riot might just break the game again if they tried. If they would try to do this I can assure you that the game will be unbalanced for a few months and I can assure you that people start complaining, even though Riot would have done exactly what was asked of them.

We are talking the very fundament this game is built on having to be changed. They'd have to do extremely ground breaking changes, they'd probably have to tackle some basic things like minions and towers themselves, and yet again, the last time they did that creep block and paper towers happened.

85 Comments

Big LincolnDec 23, 201616 votes

I don't want them to be 'out of the meta' - that's not fair to ADC players.

What I do want is for them to be replaceable and not absolutely mandatory. I want to be able to play a melee carry or an APC in place of them and still be able to succeed.

I also want their itemization changed; Marksmen are the only class that are all pushed as carries because of crit. We've had nothing but issues with this, and no other class works this way. You have a lot of variance between fighters, mages, assassins, even supports have more diversity in their game plan than ADCs tend to.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 23, 20163 votes

multiple classes are always out of meta because you can't have evertyhing. there has to be a meta. why is it all of the sudden unfair for them?. do you even understand what out of meta means?

Big LincolnDec 23, 20169 votes

No they aren't. Champions may be out of meta -- entire classes are not.

5000000000000000Dec 24, 20162 votes

To elaborate, here's an example. In top lane, the meta may favor tanks, bruisers, or more rarely assassins, mages, and marksmen. Mid lane, the meta favors assassins, mages, and rarely marksmen. Jungle, pretty much anyone can go, but usually bruisers. Bot lane, it's always a marksman and a support (although there's a variety of supports).

That's what people mean when they say "marksmen are never out of meta."

doublelift fgDec 23, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=izxqO6Vc,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-12-23T18:12:05.726+0000) I also want their itemization changed; Marksmen are the only class that are all pushed as carries because of crit.

well i'm sorry but that's BULLSHIT, we were able to build armor pen and riot forced us to build crit

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=izxqO6Vc,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-12-23T18:12:05.726+0000)

I don't want them to be 'out of the meta' - that's not fair to ADC players.

What I do want is for them to be replaceable and not absolutely mandatory. I want to be able to play a melee carry or an APC in place of them and still be able to succeed.

fair enough i guess, adc players would still be able to play adc

Big LincolnDec 23, 20163 votes

right, and I didn't agree with the armor pen changes. At least not in the way they handled it; Lethality is a joke stat.

I think crit items should be looked at; I've said it before but I don't think crit should stack. making ADCs too bursty when they've got 50% and up. We need more itemization for AD casters as well; Lucian and MF shouldn't be shoehorned into crit builds.

doublelift fgDec 23, 20162 votes

lucian was destroyed with lethality, now he's being buffed i'll see how he will do Miss fortune isn't really a caster, but she needs crit anyway to use her R at it max

i miss armor pen meta, because in this meta armor pen and crit were both strong and you had the choise to build one of those 2, crit was better in late game but armor pen was better in mid game, i was able to build so many items on jhin that's a shame.

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=izxqO6Vc,comment-id=000500020000,timestamp=2016-12-23T20:21:05.143+0000) I think crit items should be looked at; I've said it before but I don't think crit should stack. making ADCs too bursty

and RNG, don't bother with enemy caitlyn removing 50% of your hp with 20% chance IE headshot crit.

Big LincolnDec 23, 20163 votes

i don't mind the RNG aspect of it, i feel like it's a bigger problem that they can essentially remove the RNG aspect of it after 50% crit and it just becomes "more damage." especially with IE making it 250% crits every other auto

and RNG, don't bother with enemy caitlyn removing 50% of your hp with 20% chance IE headshot crit.

caitlyn's headshot has no business scaling with crit chance or crit damage tbh. completely absurd how it has like 4 different sources of scaling.

WoonStruckDec 24, 20161 votes

Armor pen wasn't good for the game on ADCs.

Being an early-mid game bully with a huge power-spike at 1 item, then transitioning to a hypercarry later anyway was in no way healthy. It deserved to be removed from the game.

However, **Riot should still learn from it and offer alternatives to the old Crit+AD+AS builds, which tend to be extremely binary. **

SnowplosionDec 24, 20161 votes

As an ADC main I would love to have other options in terms of ranged. This is why I loved the horribly terrifying and broken Morde rework. Yes it had to be removed, but I loved the option of being able to choose a different kind of class in the position I was most familiar with. That being said, it would be very difficult for Riot to try and make an option like that.

Spacesuit SpiffDec 24, 20162 votes

I remember speculation that two drain tanks could go bot and put KV on each other. I assume it didn't work because of the stats on KV, but some similar item designed for this could allow it.

My problem is more with the fact that the community is sheep and cant distinguish between "totally viable in most elos if you play it right" and "never picked in lcs therefore trash". Theyre either gonna think the alternate botlane is either broken and mandatory, or should just never get picked ever.

Cynical RainDec 24, 20161 votes

The main problem there is that there are 5 players and 4 lanes. The greatest sheepish behavior there would be to not share CS. You can make funky stuff work with friends, but not with strangers because of this.

After that, your points apply. It's not only the sheepish behavior related to min-max, but the idea of a meta ingrained into players by both other players and Riot itself. My favorite match of all time is probably the game where GSG ran down mid with a Blitz. Many cheese strategies like this are probably viable which nobody has thought about or cares enough to think about. It's possible there are non-cheese consistent strategies which are not meta as well. For example, the proxy singed which emerged a few years ago. Most of these things would require a premade, but if experimental stuff becomes common, people would learn to adapt.

WoonStruckDec 24, 20161 votes

I personally know the guy that invented Proxy Singed. Druiddroid.

Proxy Singed was cheese; he even acknowledged that. It bypassed the game essentially and let you scale with guaranteed gold/exp and with little-no risk. That's the entire point of Proxy Singed.

He said on stream, after he started picking up a following, that he was not a good player and that what he was doing should be removed from the game. He said the only reason he improved was because some games he had to support or jungle and learn to play at a Diamond level because of that. When he was top he didn't have to worry about diamond/challenger/master players because he could simply avoid interacting with them.

Now its coming back with the item 1082 item 2033 item 1001 build.

MarshbouyDec 23, 201610 votes

Thank you. It's too late to change marksman from mandatory, everything in this game has been set around the constant fact that marksman will be in each game. Trying to change that will be incredibly time consuming and will leave the game in a terribly balanced state for seasons.

that being said, making it so that 30% playrate 53% winrate marksman don't exist is definitely good.

AnonagonDec 23, 20165 votes

I don't think massive systemic changes are actually needed all that much to make ADC/Support bot lanes not mandatory. Sure, there are some systems changes that could help, like working on creep block and stuff. But I think that the real way that ADCs stop being mandatory, or at least mandatory in the bot lane, is reworks to both ADCs and Supports.

Lets look at something interesting: Four of the six champions that were reworked as part of the Marksman update are now four ADCs who are pickable outside of the bot lane ADC role: Graves - Jungle Quinn - Top Corki - Mid MF - Support (I know this is a niche pick but stick with me here)

What's evident here is that when ADCs are changed to have unique reasons to pick them outside of just sustained physical damage, they become viable in other roles, because there are now reasons to pick them there. What other ADCs get picked outside of bot, and for what reasons? (not counting AP builds here)

Vayne - top - tank killing Varus - mid - supreme physical damage poke, counter-engage Twitch - jungle - stealth cheese ganks, later teamfight AoE

In addition to these, you have one champion, Kennen, who isn't an ADC but is occasionally picked as one because he brings something unique for the role - consistent, often AoE hard CC.

So if its possible to have your team's source of sustained ranged physical damage come from outside the bot lane, why is the bot lane still always an ADC?

I think the real problem is the supports.

Think about it for a second - almost every dedicated support is built around either enhancing specifically the patterns of a ranged ADC (Janna's shield gives AD, Sona Q gives an on-hit, Braum passive procs on autoattacks) or stopping the patterns of a diver or assassin (Lulu W/R, Janna Q/R, Soraka W). I think the problem with botlane might not be that theres no one who can replace an ADC, or that the mandatory ADC can't go anywhere else, but that there are no good lane partners for a non-ADC bot laner, and that any support you'll play against is specifically designed to fuck you over.

This might be entirely wrong but think about it a bit.

Spice POWAHDec 24, 20161 votes

Why don't they just make it easier to farm against ranged champs?

AnonagonDec 24, 20161 votes

Any systemic changes I would support for changing the botlane meta would be geared towards that. Stuff like dealing with creep block, making creeps more likely to retaliate to ranged autoattack poke, etc. It would go a long way. But I don't think that alone would change the way bot lane is. Because making melee vs ranged lane matchups better wouldn't change the fact that most ADCs simply don't function outside bot, that most supports are specifically designed to lane with ADCs, and that supports are also specifically designed to fuck over melees.

AhristocatsDec 23, 20163 votes

i prefer them breaking the game and then fixing it, rather than letting marksmen meta forever

literally the 2 changes that need to happen are -15 base AD to marksmen and +20 AD +20 movement speed to minions

ColorfulNarwhalDec 23, 20162 votes

if you don't mind me asking, what is your personal problem with ADCs

Maximum MordeDec 23, 20164 votes

I've always hated ranger archetypes in every fantasy setting ever. Lowest effort character development of all time. Fuck Legolas, fuck elves, fuck that stupid crap.

TreyhovaDec 23, 20163 votes

So wait, cause you dont like the character type, my entire class of mains has to be gutted into uselessness?

Maximum MordeDec 23, 20163 votes

Well, no. If it was my game they simply would never have even been added in the first place. It's not though. It's Riots game. And I agree that having something in a game for the purely to suck is kinda lame.

I do think they should be the weakest duelist class though. They are almost there, not quite though.

NiceTryViDec 23, 20162 votes

Agreed, ADCs should not be able to duel. ADCs should be there for sustained damage. They should not win a 1v1 against people built for 1v1s, if that fighter gets on them, they should lose. ADCs should not have roots or stuns, that is what their team is for. Nothing grinds my gears like going in on an ADC that's alone and dying because they drop 2 crits on me while orbwalking before I get in melee range, then dropping a root and continuing to owrbwalk away from me while I'm stuck for 2 seconds and can do nothing. ADCs should be very good at standing in the middle of their team, protected by tanks, and killing people that their frontline and mage locks down. Cait shouldn't be able to splitpush, and when a Hecarim appears, get away from him taking no or little damage, while dealing 2 steroided crits to him because of headshot and net, and possibly another HS from a trap. All while running away.

Craft ZeppelinDec 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=izxqO6Vc,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2016-12-23T18:04:43.179+0000)

I've always hated ranger archetypes in every fantasy setting ever. Lowest effort character development of all time. Fuck Legolas, fuck elves, fuck that stupid crap.

Orks is bestest! WAAAAAARGH!

but hey, look at the state of varus which is the only marksman who actually needs to aim.

Spice POWAHDec 24, 20161 votes

Why +20AD to minions?

AhristocatsDec 24, 20161 votes

that way it's harder for them to poke melee down bot, especially with +20 movement speed to minions

Spice POWAHDec 25, 20161 votes

Then how are melee top lanes supposed to trade? I think the movement buff would be enough. Besides, towers would get broken even faster.

AhristocatsDec 26, 20161 votes

then buff towers? league is the only moba where towers falls in 2 minion waves in early game

how melee top lanes are supposed to trade? what do you mean dude top lane is mostly ranged top laners right now

and lane bullies like renekton or darius don't give a shit about minions, especially riven who can spam Q+W and not getting minion aggro since spells don't trigger it

SaiannaDec 24, 20163 votes

Mordecaiser case is busted from the very start simply because they tred to fit overgrown elephant to a teapot.

It wasn't his role, nor he had anything that could make him work as ADC-replacer. Riot artifically made him into ADC-wannabe that didn't work at all.

That being said, it is still possible to reintroduce non marksmen ADC/APCs. But they have to be worked to fit there from the start. Also reducing ADCs reliance on items (nerf items ALOT, buff their abilities, ratios, base stats to compensate) and suddenly every champion could work bot lane as ADC replacer. That's IMO, ofc.

UltraGigaNigaDec 23, 20162 votes

What are you even talking about. They literally just have to under tune a few adc items. It's not rocket science like you seem to make it sound like.

ArnoldSchwarzensDec 23, 201627 votes

If they do that, marksmen will be exactly like before the marksman class update happened. All super underpowered but still mandatory to the game because you can't have anything that is not a markman and a support in the botlane without changing the fundamentals of the game.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 23, 201610 votes

that will be good. I'd rather the marskman update be reverted. you know back when ad carries didn't rule multiple lanes

TreyhovaDec 23, 20169 votes

Dude, Botlane is a fucking nightmare at the moment, where there is constantly 3-4 man ganks and ADC's cant come online before 25 minutes unless extremely fed.

Master ArtoriaDec 23, 20169 votes

That cause Riot has for the last year or so continued to add damage to every fucking champion cause the game was too "slow" at the end of season 5. If they want to takes marksmen back to even somewhat out of the meta, then they would basically have to put them in a the same state they were in S5, where it actually took skill to play rather then simply 2 hitting everything.

Spice POWAHDec 24, 20161 votes

Really, i'm fine with adcs being in multiple positions. For example, it's fine that Jhin and Lucian can go mid IMO. they just shouldn't be top tier or always outclass mages/assassins.

nice tableDec 24, 20164 votes

marksmen underpowered? lmao

AhristocatsDec 24, 20161 votes

underpowered but mandatory

sure

WoonStruckDec 24, 20162 votes

They weren't underpowered before the marksmen update.

The marksmen update was supposed to be 'power-neutral' according to Riot. It was to diversify ADCs and ADC itemization so they aren't picked solely for range, damage, or mobility at any given point, with only the top 3 ever being meta.

#By all accounts, they failed.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 23, 20162 votes

they just need to make ranged marskman laneable against top lane in a 1v1 without jungle interference. have you played against vayne top?. i wouldn't wish it on my worst fucking enemy. give them an actual weak early game

SociopathFriendDec 24, 20162 votes

ADCs are mandatory because League is an objective-based game and ADCs (once they get items) are the best class at taking objectives. Ranged ADCs are mandatory because the melee ones (Yi, Tryn, etc.) are at a severe disadvantage in lane against ranged ADCs. You need someone who can take objectives quickly, and the melee ones are traditionally sub-par laners. So you need a ranged ADC, or Marksman.

The ADC+Support thing is an entirely separate issue.

People are bitching about Marksman because they can't whine about Assassins anymore, Courage of Colossus and Tanks are being toned back down, and Bruisers aren't 1v5ing and winning every battle anymore. So now the hot-topics are how Support items and ADCs being mandatory.

deadlychuckDec 24, 20161 votes

Marksmen use to be the anti-objective role. Their job wasn't killing players in .9 seconds with 2 crits. It was to deal consistent damage at a safe distance to towers, dragon, baron. Yet riot tried to expand their role, then assassins got really out of hand, then tanks, then mages (because wave clear), then secondary assassins.

Simply put, marksmen should be changed back to anti-objective, with maybe two or three "brawler" marksmen like vayne, who's role is to kill champions. Then the tanks and supports protect/buff their artillery, while mages protect against the footmen, and the assassins attempt to pick off the wave clear and artillery.

It's almost like this genre spawned from strategy based games, and not FPS games with the current hyperactive meta which exists due to extremely low time to kill. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

TeCoolMageDec 24, 20161 votes

I agree with some points like kill times being ridiculously low, but the fact ADCs are objective focused is what makes them meta. In a game about objectives, being able to ace the enemy team actually isn't enough a lot of the time unless 1. The guy who's most fed is so fed he out-damages the enemy ADC against towers, or 2. Your own ADC gets enough time and farm up to kill towers. Half of your options gone if you don't have an ADC and they do.

I'd rather all roles have an objective focus with killing champions being a secondary thing, than to continue to enforce the ADC requirement

Even if marksmen did crap damage to enemy champions, but were more objective focused, the game would be in a much more worse state. 0 Marksmen teams suck since an ace will only get you 2 or 1 towers while a marksman team will either close the game or get to nexus towers, killing the jungler won't be enough if you don't have the DPS to kill it in short time AND the role will be more boring since the marksman will be balanced around standing behind everyone doing absolutely nothing until they push the wave into a tower. I don't want to be protected by my team while afking until the wave meets the tower, that's extremely boring.

DubshokaDec 25, 20161 votes

It would be really interesting to see Riot move the marksman class away from being an ADC and towards the objective control.

ATM, if the idea was to have the oft mentioned objective control as their main focus, there would be no need for crit or armor reduction, just AD and AS. Which would, in turn, allow for more interesting options in individual kits I think.

SociopathFriendDec 24, 20161 votes

Killing someone with two crits is exaggerating in the extreme. Even Supports have more health than that.

CowseedDec 24, 20162 votes

Hey...... how about instead waiting for the people who design the game to decide its meta how about you make the players figure something out? : ^ D

Seriously is the reason this has been a thing so long because everyone is waiting on Riot to make something different work?

badoogaDec 24, 20162 votes

Apparently, Black Market Brawlers was able to take marksmen down a notch. Maybe a few more items from BMB could be added to regular gameplay...?

BastionKrossDec 24, 20162 votes

It wouldn't be super hard at all. Marksmen just do two things when they should be doing one:

Take objectives the best. Deal heavy DPS to champs the best.

All Riot has to do is pick one, and lower marksmen's ability to do the other. Now, the same champion isn't the best at killing everyone on the enemy team and taking towers/dragon/baron.

If you want to keep them as DPS, have towers/epic creatures gain large amounts of physical DR if you're attacking them from range (allowing mages to still take towers and melees to deal big damage).

If you want them to kill objectives, you just have to change crit so that it only works on objectives. That lowers their DPS vs champions dramatically, but lets them tear through things like towers. If that's not enough and they're still doing too much damage in teamfights, then you can start lowering their base attack speed and AD.

ProfirixDec 24, 20161 votes

Bring back marksmen mid.

RandomoniumDec 24, 20161 votes

The reason why marksmen have been and most likely always will be in the meta is because of their ability to take towers. There is no class in the game that can take towers like a Marksman can and let's be honest, taking towers is what wins the game. Kills help, cs helps, neutral objectives help, but ultimately the game is decided by who takes the other team's towers because only taking towers allows you to destroy the nexus.

The only way that marksmen will ever not be in meta is if Riot introduced alternative ways to take towers (like zzrot and banner) or changed how other classes did damage to towers (like how mages deal AP damage to towers now.) That is the first step to alter the meta, not nerfing marksmen or buffing other classes or reworking champions.

TreyhovaDec 24, 20161 votes

Why is the Boards so anti-ADC?