can we buff garens lategame damage please?

Critmaster Garen··6 votes·723 views

when a lategame adc with same amount of gold can just sit in melee and win a straight damage race, i feel somewhat cheated.

garens weakness is supposed to be that hes susceptible to kiting. his strength is supposed to be raw offensive/defensive power when he fights an opponent head on. when he cant outduel an adc just by both sides sitting in range of each other and dealing damage to each other without even an attempt to kite, something seems wrong. but come lategame, the mix of armor pen, damage and especially lifesteal just allows them to sustain through the damage he deals.

id say his crit scaling is a good point to to do it. right now he only profits from about half of the stat, since critical strikes dont apply to the base damage of his spin, but only to the part from bonus ad.

imo there are 2 ways to improve the crit scaling

a) either include the base damage of the spin on a crit or

b) instead of just increasing the damage of a critting spin tick, have the extra damage from a crit applied as a separate damage instance. while this wouldnt change much about the total damage he gains out of it, this would mean an extra cleaver stack as a result of a crit. meaning, the more critical strike chance garen has, the more rapidly he would apply cleaver stacks.

25 Comments

Knight SoIaire 3 votes

no adc can scratch garen ... in fact no adc can outrun garen besides kalista also no adc can survive garens damage for long what is wrong with this thread

Critmaster Garen5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=izf99725,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-07-11T11:52:07.611+0000)

no adc can scratch garen ... in fact no adc can outrun garen besides kalista also no adc can survive garens damage for long what is wrong with this thread

come midgame, before the opposing adc has a last whisper, its true. theyre barely able to scratch him.

but i dont know how youre playing adc, but yea. a 5/6 item adc with a bt can often just sit in place and tank him.

maybe not all of them, but ive noticed it in paricular with gaves and jinx. vayne aswell ofc. youd have to specifically build to counter adc, with randuins, thornmail and tabi to force them to at least kite you. if youre building a more general build with mixed defenses like most games require, you hit a point where they outtrade you too easily.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

but i dont know how youre playing adc, but yea. a 5/6 item adc with a bt can often just sit in place and tank him.

never saw any adc survive long with garen never managed to be even close to doing that vs garen never saw an adc try to stand up to me as garen

thats just what i see in my games ... garen is tanky as fk ... and his damage isnt bad ... in fact he kills carries quite fast

Earl Eulrich2 votes

dunno, i never felt like he had dmg-problems - but then again, i usually don´t build more than 3defensive items. If anything they could give him some passive %arp, maybe even on the ultimate, as currently you often end up with either no slot for Crit or no slot for arp...somewhat limiting his lategame indeed.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=izf99725,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-07-11T11:38:02.212+0000)

dunno, i never felt like he had dmg-problems - but then again, i usually don´t build more than 3defensive items. If anything they could give him some passive %arp, maybe even on the ultimate, as currently you often end up with either no slot for Crit or no slot for arp...somewhat limiting his lategame indeed.

well, ive just had a situation where the game was going into the lategame stages, and both teams approached full builds. the entire game was difficult to close out for either side when we were ahead.

there was one situation in particular, where i tried to fight a graves. without kiting or either of us burning summoners, he just chilled in place and auto attacked me, while his bloodthirster gave him enough health return that he wasnt threatened by any of the damage i dealt.

offensive items in my inventory at the time were a maw, ghostblade and cleaver. for defense i had a randuins.

however, this wasnt the first time ive been in such a situation, where lategame adc simply win straight damage races without the attempt to kite even when even in gold, because of lifesteal.

the thing is, i rarely ever build more than 2 defensive items either. it still doesnt seem enough.

{quoted}

He is supposed to be an early dominator, hence it was a design choice to not let him have a strong late game presence.

Problem is, his early is so nerfed he is just 1 glorified minion who has tons of HP and absolutely no use for any of it besides scaring the noobs running home crying and nothing else.

His early should be buffed.

imo his early game is fine. id rather be a little more relevant lategame. if hed just deal enough damage to outtrade a lategame adc in melee, it would be enough.

and early game champ or not. it still feels shitty, that adc are able to do that. there should at least be a minimal efford required on their part to stay away from him.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

well, ive just had a situation where the game was going into the lategame stages, and both teams approached full builds. the entire game was difficult to close out for either side when we were ahead.

there was one situation in particular, where i tried to fight a graves. without kiting or either of us burning summoners, he just chilled in place and auto attacked me, while his bloodthirster gave him enough health return that he wasnt threatened by any of the damage i dealt.

offensive items in my inventory at the time were a maw, ghostblade and cleaver. for defense i had a randuins.

however, this wasnt the first time ive been in such a situation, where lategame adc simply win straight damage races without the attempt to kite even when even in gold, because of lifesteal.

the thing is, i rarely ever build more than 2 defensive items either. it still doesnt seem enough.

mh, wouldnßt really call bc an offensive item - it´s more a support item for ad-heavy comps but still... the thing is though, if you get your q on the adc he canßt step away anymore and your team should be able to focus him down (i mean, if garen reaches him there have to be other champs that get there too), so itßs not that bad if you can´t just aa->q->e->r oneshot him lategame. Also, a llittle arp on his ult (think of 10/20/30%) would help out here aswell, as graves passive makes him quite tanky...not to mention that lifesteal+crit-dps is just obscene in general, which is not just garens problem but hurts all tanks. As it is in prolonged fights ADCs can tank more dmg than any tank currently once they get lifesteal, just less burst - thanks to riot screwing over infight sustain for tanks since they removed FoN.

Sire Hippington2 votes

the main problem with his crit scaleing is that there are little crit items that are usefrull for bruisers since Atma's is gone... It's mostly yomuu's that he can use...getting an IE would be massive luxury...

comeing to lategame, garren sure feels rather weak unless he has a great lead, but that is true to almost any bruisers, as soon as carrys hit 5-6 items it's mostly game over for you, your just a meatshield buying time for your carry, as killing the adc 1v1 is pretty impossible for mot bruisers by that point.(privded they either know how to kite or have hyper scaleing damage like jinx)

However, garrens early and mid is so potent that u usually should be able to win the game befor the carrys get to that point, or ateast get enough of a lead for the rest of your team to close it out while you play meatshield(beeing meatshield still is a horrible lategame-fantasy though)

Buffing garren would be no good here, it would require a bigger systematic change that involves pushing ADCs from the lategame god-mode throne, but also tweaking out the massiv midgame dominance of bruisers.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=izf99725,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-07-11T14:41:07.449+0000)

the main problem with his crit scaleing is that there are little crit items that are usefrull for bruisers since Atma's is gone... It's mostly yomuu's that he can use...getting an IE would be massive luxury...

yes. ghostblade and i.e. are pretty much the only crit items available to him. having the critical strike damage apply as a separate damage isntance would be one possibility to make the stat a bit more rewarding, even if you dont have a lot of it.

at least in combination with a cleaver. i think the fact that it only partially applies to his spin kindof hurts him in that area.

honestly, it would actually be nice if they flattened out the crit scaling on his spells, similar to how they did it with ashe. right now you kindof have to pray to rngesus that his decisive strike crits. it makes his damage rather unrealibale.

but then that second suggestion wouldnt work, as he would basically crit on every tick on his spin with a small crit chance already.

imo flattening out the crit damage on his spells and fully applying it instead half of it would work. especially since its a lategame stat for him. investing more gold into it past ghostblade is usually not possible.

for me, infinity edge is kindof a 6th item. and only, if the enemy team doesnt have too much armor and i need a last whisper instead.

[{quoted}](name=Ser Garland,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=izf99725,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-11T14:01:23.068+0000)

You have three damage items on Garen? No. Two is your maximum.

if you want to be a useless hunk of hp, then youre free to ignore damage on him. garen needs to build damage to deal damage. and as far as i see the champion, the defensive steroids he has are there so he can get more tanky than most other champs by building only 2 or 3 defensive items and go all out on offense with the rest.

the problem is, if you dont you basically have no impact at all on a fight. full tank garen only works if his team is already carrying. because he deals no damage on his own and only has his ult. if you want to see what happens when garen builds too tanky, check out the chinese pro game, where that one guy picked garen. he had literally 0 impact, because every time he cought out the enemy kog maw, he dealt no damage and just got wrecked in a 1v1 much like i described in the op.

building tank garen can actually just make a situation worse, as youre just giving the enemy adc more ammunition against you, if he has a bork and a last whisper in his inventory. more hp means he lifesteals more off you.

SEKAI1 votes

He is supposed to be an early dominator, hence it was a design choice to not let him have a strong late game presence.

Problem is, his early is so nerfed he is just 1 glorified minion who has tons of HP and absolutely no use for any of it besides scaring the noobs running home crying and nothing else.

His early should be buffed.

Mecha MaIphite1 votes

I've beaten a late-game vayne 1v1 because she didn't kite me very well. Garen's late damage is fine.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

I've beaten a late-game vayne 1v1 because she didn't kite me very well. Garen's late damage is fine.

did she auto you, or just run away from you. were you even in gold or were you far ahead? did she have a last whisper at that point?

i find that the ability to duell a lategame adc depends on a lot of circumstances. one big factor is if you get a crit on decisive strike. if youre able to take half the adc health with a q, then you should be able to follow up with the rest of your chain and get the kill.

but if it doesnt, it can lead to a situation where they just keep sustaining through your damage, while sitting in place.

Mecha MaIphite1 votes

She auto'd alright. I had thornmail which pretty much negated most of her life steal.

And yes, she had LW.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

She auto'd alright. I had thornmail which pretty much negated most of her life steal.

And yes, she had LW.

ya see, id love to build a thornmail every game, but thats not possible in many cases, when the enemy team has a lot of mixed damage. i dont know how to feel about being forced to buy thornmail and stack 300 armor every game just to be able to deal with the enemy adc at some point.

imo it should be possble to be tanky enough to fight him head on, without having to specialize your entire build to counter adc. at least when youre even in gold.

id much less salty, if the graves would have won because he kited me around in that situation. fine, thats garens weakness and if he plays around it, he wins the fight. but sitting in place and being able to just lifesteal through the damage i deal goes a bit too far for my taste.

Ser Garland1 votes

You have three damage items on Garen? No. Two is your maximum.

Ser Garland1 votes

I don't think you guys are taking advantage of his passive. You meet a champion who can out damage you? That's fine, just do small trades with them. Q-E-W- back off, regenerate all your missing health in two seconds, then fight them again. you will always come out on top that way.

LaceUp231 votes

This is fucking stupid. You want a guy that builds maybe 1 damage item to have good damage while being a fucking unkillable machine. Just no. Not to mention that if you're getting killed 1v1 vs an Adc in melee range with Garen, you are doing something wrong. Unless that adc is a Vayne that you didn't punish early.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

This is fucking stupid. You want a guy that builds maybe 1 damage item to have good damage while being a fucking unkillable machine. Just no. Not to mention that if you're getting killed 1v1 vs an Adc in melee range with Garen, you are doing something wrong. Unless that adc is a Vayne that you didn't punish early.

im saying adc shouldnt be able to 1v1 him in melee. read the op. thats literally all i want.

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=izf99725,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-07-11T14:11:27.904+0000)

never saw any adc survive long with garen never managed to be even close to doing that vs garen never saw an adc try to stand up to me as garen

thats just what i see in my games ... garen is tanky as fk ... and his damage isnt bad ... in fact he kills carries quite fast

midgame? no. lategame, it happens more than you think.

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

Dear commenters, please ignore this thread.

Apparently this isn't the first "Garen buff" thread OP posted, as he happens to post it a lot of times in the past, judging from his Discussion History, so technically he's just trolling. Even I still remembered the countless "Garen Buff" threads he unnecessarily posts.

Please refrain from agreeing/disagreeing his opinions. You'll just be trolled. Even if Op were serious about it, he would have changed his smurf's username for starters.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Dear commenters, please ignore this thread.

Apparently this isn't the first "Garen buff" thread OP posted, as he happens to post it a lot of times in the past, judging from his Discussion History, so technically he's just trolling. Even I still remembered the countless "Garen Buff" threads he unnecessarily posts.

Please refrain from agreeing/disagreeing his opinions. You'll just be trolled. Even if Op were serious about it, he would have changed his smurf's username for starters.

i posted a lot of suggestions in which place he can get buffed yes. i dont think you know what trolling means. by which i mean you lack the understanding of the concept.

maining a champion and posting a suggestion about balancing him is not trolling for instance.

when im maining a champ, and youve just seen him in the occational normal, you can assume that i know a lot more about him than you do aand im more likely to discuss said champ. and for the record, riot has stated in the past, that they want to look into ways to help him out. so it makes sense to take feedback from people who actually play that champion.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

oh, as for garen being an early game champion. that depends heavily on who youre up against. he has a lot, and i mean a LOT of unfavourable matchups. so i dont know if its entirely fair to put his early game too much into weight.

his main powerspike is in my experience around the 30 minute mark.

Ghiingis1 votes

Well, I used to main garen before i got bored, because i wrecked teemos, vaynes, yoricks, ALL OF THEM at top. Dont know about u guys, but if i flash + q e r on a vayne or graves THEY DIE HARD. If u pop garens w and negate 30 PERCENT DAMAGE who can touch u?!!!!!. And his passive got buffed a while ago, which means if u lose a trade just heal up and get back in there, also he has one of the best wave clears for someone who is mainly a tank and has no mana. And his splitpushing is just extremely effective. Especially with the new black cleaver Garen is a though matchup for anyone at top or elsewhere, that is, if u know how to play him. And how to build him, u dont need to be tanky to be effective as garen.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Well, I used to main garen before i got bored, because i wrecked teemos, vaynes, yoricks, ALL OF THEM at top. Dont know about u guys, but if i flash + q e r on a vayne or graves THEY DIE HARD. If u pop garens w and negate 30 PERCENT DAMAGE who can touch u?!!!!!. And his passive got buffed a while ago, which means if u lose a trade just heal up and get back in there, also he has one of the best wave clears for someone who is mainly a tank and has no mana. And his splitpushing is just extremely effective. Especially with the new black cleaver Garen is a though matchup for anyone at top or elsewhere, that is, if u know how to play him. And how to build him, u dont need to be tanky to be effective as garen.

but how long has that been since you mained him? the game and game balance changes every other patch. this patch with the ap rework alone is huge.

when singed runs around with a rilays with 40% slow on his fart cloud, the game is a lot different. i might beat him early on easily, but its like moving through syrup in teamfights.

Ghiingis1 votes

lol ''walking through syrup in teamfights'', u may be right i main ryze now. But still i play him sometimes and he doesnt rly feel weak. I think its more the buffs on others that make this seem.

1000angrybees1 votes

Aren't tanks supposed to lose to ADC's....?

I mean, that's part of the damn triangle, isn't it

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

Aren't tanks supposed to lose to ADC's....?

I mean, that's part of the damn triangle, isn't it

garen isnt a tank. and no.

they should not lose to an adc sitting in place, not giving a fuck. they should worry about positioning against anyone. this is my problem with the situation. garen is supposed to be nothing but damage and tankyness in melee. raw duelling power. he doesnt have anythign else to show for him. no utility, nothing.

his drawback is, that he has no ranged abilities, limited mobility/susceptible to kiting and is only effective when his abilities arent on cooldown.

it kindof defeats the purpose of his strength, when lategame adc can just sit in his spin and lifesteal through his damage.

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