Let's be honest here: who actually hates playing against Lee Sin?

IllllllIIIIlllll·Dec 4, 2015·23 votes·2,416 views

I realize he has an overloaded kit with many bells and whistles attached, but Lee Sins I play against rarely use his kit to his full potential. He's a strong early game ganker? Guess what, so are . Lee Sin's kit is powerful if you know exactly when to Q, when to ward jump; most people (myself included) don't. The junglers I listed are usually far more annoying to play against. And, unlike the devourer junglers, Lee Sin falls heavily lategame. Compared to , who is annoying as f@#$ to deal with in lane AND has a strong mid/lategame, Lee just feels much easier to play against.

Disclaimer: I do not main Lee Sin. Outside of the free week, I haven't played him in the last three months.

54 Comments

ProfDrDeathDec 4, 201515 votes

I don't mind going against Lee once in a while. However, I do mind if that SOB is in every f***ing game I play. And, as usual, my team's Lee is always useless, while theirs is Diamondprox Junior.

ProjektSHINDec 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

And, as usual, my team's Lee is always useless, while theirs is Diamondprox Junior.

lol... i was just thinking this the other day.... it always happens to me.. i dont understand

BârdDec 5, 20152 votes

It's Shaco's law.

Truly PridefulDec 4, 20152 votes

Agree 100%. I don't hate playing against him as much as I hate seeing him every single game. Without fail, some one will pick him if he's open.

CasriDec 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Agree 100%. I don't hate playing against him as much as I hate seeing him every single game. Without fail, some one will pick him if he's open.

I totally agree, it's literally the frequency with which he is picked that annoys me so much. I wouldn't mind dealing with him, if I wasn't having to deal with him every 3rd or more game (he has the highest pick rate of every champ at 35%).

I want him to be gutted/reworked just to put an end to this, he's crowding out jungle diversity, it's boring more than anything.

BemaponDec 6, 20153 votes

Same reason why I ban Yasuo and used to ban vayne. I am just really tired of seeing them every. single. game.

The Bearded BardDec 4, 20157 votes

'Falling off late game' is a myth. Champions that get fed early game don't just randomly stop being strong late game.

AbyssphereDec 4, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iwE1kwvZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-04T08:40:56.583+0000)

'Falling off late game' is a myth. Champions that get fed early game don't just randomly stop being strong late game.

I think the point is that a fed Lee Sin is less scary after 30 minutes than most fed people, unless he's something ridiculous like 20/2/12. He's still very scary but as long as you're grouping, not horrendous. And if he doesn't manage to get fed, he is very weak. He's not horrible late by any means, I'd prefer a Lee after 40 than an Elise, but he does win quite a few less games after they reach a certain point than he does before that point.

KougaDec 4, 20152 votes

Early game, high-burst Champs (Pantheon, LB) get fed early, and they do just stop being strong late game because once the enemy has time to build up some defenses and they can no longer delete anyone, they can't do shit.

Meep ManDec 4, 20152 votes

Single target oriented champions can be good early and fall off late game. Lee is questionable due to his ultimate, but this does exist.

TeCoolMageDec 4, 20151 votes

Mehhhh Vayne, Malzahar, and 1v1 champs in mid and bot don't tend to fall off

Diananmen SquareDec 5, 20151 votes

Vayne has % health damage and a scaling steroid on her ult, as well as having an empowered auto that scales with her total AD.

That allows for her damage to only rise up.

TeCoolMageDec 5, 20151 votes

:P Major derp on my part, nevermind.

But I don't think single target champs fall off all the time, like Zed (who has free AD on top of his AD, then uses that AD to ult and destroy a single target)

Handin Out NapsDec 5, 20151 votes

Zed doesn't fall off...? When their entire team has qss/zhonyas and your ult becomes a glorified gap closer you tend to fall off bud.

TeCoolMageDec 5, 20151 votes

That applies to every burst champ... "If they buy invincibliity against my burst and I use my abilities while it's on, I fall off! Who would've guessed?!"

Zhonya's against brand ult QSS against Malzahar ult Zhonya's against Talon ult Zhonya's against any global projectile ult Zhonya's against Karthus ult QSS against Cassiopeia ult Zhonya's against Xerath ult

I can just as easily say "Get Rylai's or frozen mallet against any ADC without a dash like Kog'Maw and they fall off when they can't auto me"

Handin Out NapsDec 5, 20151 votes

All of these champs have long range spells that keep them in the teamfight and outputting damage. Talon just fucks ur adc before he can even blink, guess ur gonna buy a zhonyas vs that huh? Meanwhile Zed relies on his ult to assassinate targets in teamfights, when his ult damage is cleansed he is left useless and unable to re engage until much later. Zhonyas/qss cripples Zed because he is a single target ult reliant assassin whose ult has the most counterplay in the game. Don't give me the bullshit of "oh that works for every champ", because it isn't even close to the same thing.

TeCoolMageDec 6, 20151 votes

Trust me, Zed's ult doesn't have nearly as much counterplay as other ults like Xerath or even Lux. It has counterplay, but it relies on either having more team mates, being tanky or having a really dumb zed

If anyone uses any strategy or combo on someone at full health and they know that person can counter it with an item, they're not playing right. Unless they're fizz and have untargetability every few seconds, there's no excuse to ulti someone at large amounts of health with Zhonya's or QSS off cooldown. Only if they're low, or it's on cooldown.

At least that's how I play all my champs.

Diananmen SquareDec 5, 20151 votes

Draven is also a good example of this.

His Q scales with almost all his AD, so he has really high efficiency in buying AD.

That's why some people build bloothirster into IE on him, instead of BT and attack speed item.

DreamCrushedDec 4, 20151 votes

Well. Someone has clearly never played a 50 minute game with Shyvana... 500 armor versus a full AD team and still couldn't win... it was a 4v5 granted, but I still went something like 14/7 and just couldn't carry do to lack of good late game scaling.

YumaS2AstralDec 4, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iwE1kwvZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-04T08:40:56.583+0000)

'Falling off late game' is a myth. Champions that get fed early game don't just randomly stop being strong late game.

With the exception of Pantheon - he falls off HARD late game. There were some games that I was extremely fed yet couldn't do shit to allow my team to win. That's one of the reasons why I stopped playing him.

RalanrDec 5, 20151 votes

His biggest problem sadly. The 30 minute mark is his biggest counter.

TeCoolMageDec 4, 20157 votes

200% scaling on at least one champ isn't falling off late game on an ult 180% scaling on hitting your Q and dashing isn't either... Then 100% from E, which isn't anything to laugh at either

I guess W doesn't scale into late game that well, but since when did AP scaling abilities scale with AD champs?

I'm not saying he shines like hypercarries late game, but Lee Sin with AD is a scary thing to watch.

EDIT: thank you for the meaningless down votes, bandwagon gods.

RespectPlusDec 4, 20154 votes

AD Lee Sin Assassin: QQR: kill

AbyssphereDec 4, 20154 votes

I agree with you. I find him... really unfun, but there are much worse champions in his archetype. Xin for example is a complete nightmare and I don't think I've ever had fun against him. Jarvan is more irritating than Lee because he doesn't fall off to anywhere near the same extent, and Pantheon is just Lee Sin but without any of the skill required.

Lee's problem is how little counterplay there is to his kit because it offers him so much reliable engage and disengage potential that he's always in charge of who he's fighting, and very difficult to punish when found in a bad position. But it's not completely horrible because there's a chance that Lee himself will mess up (unlike with people like Jarvan and Panth), and even if Lee is lacking in counterplay, his kit has an easily exploitable weakness and 95% of the people who play him can't get the best out of him anyway.

I'd take playing against Lee over pretty much any melee carry jungler, and a variety of others too. List for my own fun: DrMundo Fizz Gragas JarvanIV Jax MasterYi Olaf Shaco Trundle Tryndamere Udyr Volibear Warwick XinZhao

I don't mind a Lee doing well because he has to try to do that and he deserves to succeed for doing well. Everyone above though either doesn't need to do anything special to succeed (a lot of right-click to win champions here), or is way too similar to Lee early while lacking his main weakness late (Vi, Jarvan and Gragas are basically Lee Sin copy-pastes that are randomly strong team fight tanks in the late game).

MunchCrunchLunchDec 4, 20153 votes

I don't hate lee sin. but hes annoying with his dashes. I don't mind him in jungle I'd take him any day as I main jax jungle. but i hate him in top lane.

Supreme Senpai69Dec 4, 20153 votes

I hate playing against Lee Sin. He can tower dive for days even at very low level. He can escape any situation and can chase any champion.

Simply not allowing his abilities to work on wards would negate all of my hate. I've no idea why he can do that to wards.

ZLbSwAR23IDec 4, 20153 votes

This would also ruin him.

Supreme Senpai69Dec 4, 20152 votes

It would make him have to think about positioning and consequences and rely on teamwork like everybody else. Braum's W doesn't work on wards so it really is just Lee Sin for whatever reason.

ZLbSwAR23IDec 5, 20151 votes

I don't think you realise what you said there.

Being able to W to wards makes him arguably the most positional, consequential and teamwork-reliant champion in the game.

Supreme Senpai69Dec 5, 20152 votes

Most of the time when I see it he's alone and escaping a gank or he's securing a kill from a fleeing champion. If there were allies around him he wouldn't need a ward to W to, he could just W to them instead.

ZLbSwAR23IDec 5, 20151 votes

You're watching low-level play then.

With a Lee Sin in the team, everyone works with him.

StrawberrycocoaDec 5, 20151 votes

Jax and Katarina can hop to wards, I believe.

Supreme Senpai69Dec 5, 20151 votes

They're not in all my games so I don't hate playin against them lol. But, i didn't know that, good to know.

DogIsGodDec 4, 20153 votes

I hate to play against him since he's very annoying, but he's definitely not OP. People keep confusing these two terms.

AL000Dec 5, 20153 votes

his mobility is really annoying...
R is really strong at level 6... probably better than wukong's level 6 ult but not level 16

NiyumiDec 5, 20153 votes

I absolutely hate playing against Lee. Base stats are stupidly high (ESPECIALLY his MS, given all his mobility), he doesn't die, he can out-duel literally anyone, he can instantly kill you by mashing his face on his keyboard and right-clicking you, and he's just annoying.

So, yeah, I hate playing against Lee.

Son Olivia HyeDec 4, 20152 votes

tbh i hate having a lee sin on my team too cause he unintentionally takes the kills and lee sin falls off late game...

Kal Vas FlamDec 4, 20152 votes

I hate playing against him just because there's really no counterplay to him besides warding, which I would do anyway. The other guys you mentioned are usually easy to shut down, except for maybe Wukong. A good Lee Sin will just turn a snowball into a bigger snowball.

ParaBellamDec 4, 20152 votes

He's overloaded. Sure, other champs can gank strongly early game, but none of them have healing, shielding, mobility, CC, and an Energy system.

I wouldn't say Lee Sin falls heavily lategame, because he transitions to more of an assassin who kills APCs and ADCs.

I'm all for having high-difficulty high-reward champions, but they shouldn't have EVERYTHING someone could wish for. The one thing that Lee Sin doesn't have is a ranged auto-attack, which I would argue is actually a benefit (Hydra, anyone?)

The Sword SaintDec 5, 20152 votes

I hate it. He transitions from being an unfightable, gank crazy early game menace to an unkillable tank who can kick your whole team away then hop an entire screen over 2 walls without wasting any major cooldowns.

He's literally designed to make you want revenge on him right around the time when he starts running like a bitch.

The Yetii RiderDec 5, 20152 votes

The champions you named, with the exception of Shaco, have very poor invade power. The reason that people hate Lee Sin is that he literally prevents certain junglers from being played simply by being in the meta. Sejuani Amumu Maokai Shen Zac , basically any tanky jungler who has slow clears cannot function in a meta where Lee Sin is dominantly played, because he is absolutely unpunished for just walking into your jungle, throwing a Q at your red to check it, and if you're there, jumping over the wall and dueling you. If you turn it around, he ward jumps out. If you don't, he kills you, sets you behind, starts snowballing, and THEN ward jumps out so that your lanes can't come help you.

That's why people hate Lee Sin, that's why Lee Sin had such a huge pick rate for over 3 years. Because if Lee Sin is strong, every jungler that could challenge him is weak.

SithesisLordDec 6, 20151 votes

Taking my red and escaping?

Shyvana summoner 11 summoner 3

Not today.

SIaytonDec 4, 20151 votes

I usually don't mind him unless its like a Challenger Lee Sin that's killed every lane 8 times in the first 5 minutes, then he gets a bit obnoxious. I'd much rather fight him than like... a split pushing Udyr or a counter jungling Shaco though.

He's strong but there's much more annoying stuff.

RalanrDec 4, 20151 votes

I find him annoying since I can't catch him. Though sometimes it's pretty funny. Lanes against one as Sion, he kept dashing to hit me then dashing back under his tower. He couldn't do shit without his jungler and even then it was a 2/3's chance one of them would die.

ZalieriDec 4, 20151 votes

Love fighting against him as Pantheon . I AM EARLY GAME GOD... until lvl 2 or 3 :D

KANYE OBAMA GODDec 4, 20151 votes

The champions I hate going against are as follows:

Irelia Lux TahmKench

Those 3 are pretty much the bane of existence. I would say Chogath as well but nobody plays him anymore.

Angry MonsterDec 5, 20151 votes

i hate dealing with lee. I prefer actual tank junglers (mao and naut) and lee can invade me all day when i play those champs .

math crabDec 5, 20151 votes

Dirty RoleplayerDec 6, 20151 votes

I know right. When someone masters something it's suddenly annoying to play against. Life is hard my friend.

Woodsy2575Dec 6, 20151 votes

He's only really annoying when I'm playing a champion with invisibility mechanics. It's like, this guy is blind, why can he reveal me with half his abilities?!