There is no situation where black cleaver, or void staff are bad buys.
Even when the enemy team has no resistances built these items are still some of the best to buy.
Why? Why are items that are suppose to be made to push through the tankiest of champions allowed to be so strong that they are core items?
Just about EVERY bruiser wants a black cleaver.
Every ap build has a void staff either second or third.
Ahri Baka4 votesNo
is bad af as a rush
It can't be viable until 4th or 5th where you already have 
because without it , you have the Magic Pen but not the AP , you aren't going to do damage , I'd rather rush and focus on killing carries
If your enemy rushes Void then that's good for your team
The thigh guy3 votes[{quoted}](name=Kitsune Kawaii,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iuX6W97m,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-03T20:37:03.834+0000)
No
Void staff is ALWAYS a second or third item swapping places with rabadons. The item is broken out it’s ass.
Ahri Baka3 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iuX6W97m,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-09-03T20:44:39.343+0000)
Void staff is ALWAYS a second or third item swapping places with rabadons. The item is broken out it’s ass.
How? most of mages first item is 
then second 
Against assassins or anything that needs Zhonia AND/OR 
Because anti healing
I never saw Void being rushed , it's really a bad rush lol , the item itself is broken on DPS Mages like Ryze and Cass but I never saw them rushing it either tho.
The thigh guy1 votes[{quoted}](name=Kitsune Kawaii,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iuX6W97m,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-03T20:47:51.851+0000)
How? most of mages first item is
No one said rush. Void is almost always a second or third item. In the cases where zhonya’s is relevant it comes first. Not second.
And no one builds morello and Ludens. It’s one or the other cause lost chapter passive doesn’t stack. And neither does the haste passive.
Ahri Baka1 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iuX6W97m,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-03T21:00:48.710+0000)
No one said rush. Void is almost always a second or third item. In the cases where zhonya’s is relevant it comes first. Not second.
And no one builds morello and Ludens. It’s one or the other cause lost chapter passive doesn’t stack. And neither does the haste passive.
I don't know man , do you even play mages? it seems like you are talking about old Morello lmao
The thigh guy1 votes[{quoted}](name=Kitsune Kawaii,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iuX6W97m,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-03T21:18:05.326+0000)
I don't know man , do you even play mages? it seems like you are talking about old Morello lmao
How so? They both build from lost chapter and share the haste unique passive. There is no one efficiently building both.
Ahri Baka3 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iuX6W97m,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-03T21:30:21.277+0000)
How so? They both build from lost chapter and share the haste unique passive. There is no one efficiently building both.
NO Morello doesn't build from the damn Lost chapter ..
At least now I know you have no idea wtf you talking about
WalkingInACircle1 votesIt's the best 2nd slot damage item unless you need grievous. Super effective against anyone who builds mr and people who don't build mr die anyway.
Modl Ryden l2 votesBecause this isn't some MMORPG where having a tank and healer ultimately means they shouldn't die.
The thigh guy1 votes[{quoted}](name=l Ryden l,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iuX6W97m,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-03T21:05:41.560+0000)
Because this isn't some MMORPG where having a tank and healer ultimately means they shouldn't die.
I realize that. But no tank should be dying in even close to the speed that they do now and these items are the core of that problem.
And let’s say they should die that fast with these items. Then these items shouldn’t be perfectly fine builds into champions who build zero resistance items like they are.
Modl Ryden l2 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iuX6W97m,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-09-03T21:31:49.567+0000)
I realize that. But no tank should be dying in even close to the speed that they do now and these items are the core of that problem.
And let’s say they should die that fast with these items. Then these items shouldn’t be perfectly fine builds into champions who build zero resistance items like they are.
What rule states that champions need to die at a fixed rate? If your champion dies, your champion dies, and it's up to your and your team how you prevent that from happening.
Surely on paper armor pen and armor negated looks like a lot, but you also need to consider team compositions and overall income damage. Because assassins, the main subset of champions that incorporate as much armor negation in their builds, aren't always alone when confronting a tank. And having to 1v1 a tank as an assassin varies by player experience. If ONE player comes to the boards with a clip of being a tank getting 1 shotted by an assassin, then there's an equal likelihood that someone playing an assassin failed to kill a tank 1v1.
There's also champion abilities to consider, such as self healing or improved armor and MR stats upon activation.
Obviously, any champion can be slain as fast as possible if they sit there not doing anything.
Then there's the factor of retaliation from minions, camps, towers, etc. Having just put down X armor pen favors against Z armor doesn't communicate anything besides those values in that particular moment armor is effective, excluding any other outside factor.
The thigh guy1 votes[{quoted}](name=l Ryden l,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iuX6W97m,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-09-03T21:47:59.321+0000)
What rule states that champions need to die at a fixed rate? If your champion dies, your champion dies, and it's up to your and your team how you prevent that from happening.
Surely on paper armor pen and armor negated looks like a lot, but you also need to consider team compositions and overall income damage. Because assassins, the main subset of champions that incorporate as much armor negation in their builds, aren't always alone when confronting a tank. And having to 1v1 a tank as an assassin varies by player experience. If ONE player comes to the boards with a clip of being a tank getting 1 shotted by an assassin, then there's an equal likelihood that someone playing an assassin failed to kill a tank 1v1.
There's also champion abilities to consider, such as self healing or improved armor and MR stats upon activation.
Obviously, any champion can be slain as fast as possible if they sit there not doing anything.
Then there's the factor of retaliation from minions, camps, towers, etc. Having just put down X armor pen favors against Z armor doesn't communicate anything besides those values in that particular moment armor is effective, excluding any other outside factor.
Fine. Let me put it in black and white for you.
There is no instance where a champion with a build like this
Should be dying in even CLOSE to the rate they currently are.
Light Burner2 votesIts not that good against squishies. chopping of 10 magic resist and giving 70 AP. ( 10 more ap than a rod which is 1250 gold) while costing 2650. I dont think 10 ap and 20 magic resist is worth 1400g
The thigh guy1 votes[{quoted}](name=Light Burner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iuX6W97m,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-03T21:11:39.717+0000)
Its not that good against squishies. chopping of 10 magic resist and giving 70 AP. ( 10 more ap than a rod which is 1250 gold) while costing 2650. I dont think 10 ap and 20 magic resist is worth 1400g
Now apply the magic pen they get from boots and because of that they are doing near true damage. That’s the problem.
Light Burner3 votes40% magic pen = 17 magic pen + 15 from sorc shoes for 32 magic pen level 18 champs have around 39. So its not exactly true dmg, but the point was you can defintely get more ap and magic pen for less gold. The argument here was the item is too strong, when in reality the item is fairly ineffcient against squishies. Thats like saying "take away all pen from the game, and look at my dmg against tanks with 3 armor items im doing 50 dmg per hit). Like you cant say because someone built 2 items of pen and you built 0 resistances against them that them doing true dmg is a problem. Need a better argument.