Is Karma a Mage or Support Now?

Fikule··2 votes·988 views

She seems confused, which makes me confused.

She has this massive amount of scaling that you can't really work with if you go full support. And somehow, even with the scaling you fall off HARD in the later half of the mid game. i.e. a 700 AP Karma can do a W+RQ combo for 2,725 damage, but this still tends to come off badly, her W has a 90% AP ratio and 260 base damage, that is a LOT, but you hardly ever see their health going down when using this ability.

Her shield has a lower base and scaling than Janna's shield while providing an arguably worse additional effect in the form of the speed buff. She makes up for this by having a 2 second lower cooldown and a lower mana cost. But the low base combined with the low AP ratio has me wondering if they are basically screaming "ULT THIS" in your ear, since it literally more than doubles the shield, makes 50% of the final shield AoE (everyone gets MORE shield than the base shield provides) and provides a mini-Sivir ult. But at that point this thing has a 110% scaling + 440 base for the main target. Again, it's telling you to build AP. But as soon as you ult this thing, you lose a gigantic chunk of your AP's worth in that you can't ult your Q. The Ult of your Q is literally half your damage. I'm serious, with 700AP, the ult of your Q is 1,105. Your W and non-ult Q together is 1,362. You gained a shield, lost half your damage.

That's fine, recharge your ult. But they removed the ability for the shield to recharge the ult. As far as I can tell they didn't even do this intentionally. They just removed the shield's damage to buff the shield part and didn't consider that she lost any recharge, let alone the possibility of 15 seconds reduced cooldown immediately after a shield.

You'll notice I have not mentioned the ulted W. You give up either a large AoE shield or half your damage to gain... up to 1.25 seconds extra root on one target and a self heal. It's awful. You use this when running away from a solitary enemy, maybe.

So she has abilities that demand AP regardless of her position, but she also loses a lot of protection or a lot of damage depending on her choices. She needs a ton of MPen for her damage to remain relevant into the late game, which is even more different from a normal "AP Support" build, and using this Pen to deal damage means your just lost out on a big shield, which no one wants to lose.

Oh, and just for the sake of asking, why is her tether break range on her W the exact same range as it's cast range? This increases for the ult, but not the base ability? Is this intended, is it a bug? If the enemy is running away and you are chasing, they can actually break this in the moment she stops to cast it.

Few suggestions:

  • More tether range on W
  • Give the shield a way to recharge her ult (Reduce cooldown when the shield absorbs X damage? This would reward her using the ult version when more people are getting hit. The base shield could do the same, but obviously, single target, so less possible cooldown)
  • Give her R+W a useful effect, and remember it's competing with HALF her damage and a mega shield.
  • Maybe allow her to use W on allies like you used to. This would give her two support and two offense abilities. Much more Ying and Yang.
  • Q is pretty much fine. Big damage on the ult, but only if they stay in it.
  • Let her deactivate her ult, the same way Heimerdinger can. If it times out or she deactivates, it just gives it back. I can't see why she can't have this.

12 Comments

Malfini3 votes

IMO, Karma is a support (babysitter). Unlike other supports who are carry or play maker.

Just disappointing Karma is being played again after being seen by LoL fans on the LCS.

Fikule1 votes

She's been in the LCS? I assume as support from your comment. Did she do any good?

SOLOQSUPERHERO2 votes

Faker has been playing her mid in the LCK to great success. I play her mid sometimes too, though I actually feel Zilean fills a similar niche a bit better right now (for me), but she does bring some different things.

The most important thing you need to know when picking Karma outside the support role is her damage is on the low side. She does have some playmaking ability - she's got really great baiting and kiting, but her damage isn't great. She's got a lot of damage upfront but there will not be one shot potential in her kit.

So that being said, you want to aim to pick her with someone like Ashe, Jinx, Kogmaw. The huge damage outputting adcs who need some mobility help. The speed boost is great. One of the reasons I prefer zilean is that he has a lot more options I think when it comes to controlling movement, though Karma has better general help from her basic kit.

SilverSquid3 votes

Karma is an enchanter (battlemage). Riot doesn't tell you where you have to play her, although she was designed as a midlaner akin to Ori and Lux in 3.5 and rebalanced in 5.10 to be more viable as a support (closer to Nami or Lulu). Her winrates in both lanes currently seem to be pretty identical. She can also be viable in toplane.

Oh, and just for the sake of asking, why is her tether break range on her W the exact same range as it's cast range? (...) If the enemy is running away and you are chasing, they can actually break this in the moment she stops to cast it.

It isn't. The castrange is 675, the break range is 1000. This sounds like much, but consider this: The casting time is ~0.5s. Any champion with the walkingspeed of 325 (lowest base walking speed without boots) can escape half this range just during the castingtime. This leaves about one and a half teemos of range left. If they have any kind of movespeed increase (50% for 1s or better) or if they can use a dash, if you choose to also cast Q (~0.25s casttime) most likely the tether will break instantly.

People tend to forget about this casting time. It's also one of the reasons her RW isn't as good as it seems. Having to press both R and W and target an enemy usually costs you ~0,75s, making your emergency heal very delayed.

I pretty much agree on most of your other stuff. The mantra balance is off, ever since they removed the damage parts in 5.10. When RW still dealt damage it was an incredible duelling tool and when RE dealt damage, you had to think a lot about when RQ and when RE was better. RQ had the save distance, but could be blocked, RE could protect your allies, but needed an ally to aim. Really interesting ups and downs, imo.

Fikule1 votes

Good comments. But I thought the 1000 range was for her ultimate version. The wiki only states the 675/1000 for ranges, but it's been shown quite a few times that her ult W has more tether range than her default W.

SilverSquid1 votes

If you hover the 675 it says "cast range" and if you hover the 1000 it says "tether range".

I have mained Karma for two seasons and I have not experienced, nor am I aware of anyone proving, that W and RW have different ranges. Do you have a link or sth?

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

karma is a mage/support

until maybe recently this didn't have an actual name

a mage is not a mage/support a support is not a mage/support

3 different things with similarities.

BeeCuz1 votes

According to Champion.gg, Karma is played Karma-Support 2/3 Karma-Mid 1/4

http://champion.gg/champion/Karma

Ionian StarChild1 votes

Currently she's an utility mage and one that transitions to secondary support (if she's not already the team's support) for her team. I think the problem with her kit is due to her lacking a fourth ability that solidifies her identity as either a mage or support, she's caught between half and half. Whereas other utility mages can simultaneously play both roles at any point of the game (and excel in it!), Karma is forced between the two due to the nature of her kit. As a mage, she only has two ways of dealing damage. She has enough utility and crowd control to warrant her being a support (hence her transitioning as one come late game), but even then other supports do have access to more options/abilities. I think this is why Riot sort of boosted her numbers, because they know that she's limited to just three abilities. I agree that her W needs to be looked into. That ability, while it does have its uses, needs to fall in line with the rest of her kit. I was thinking more of it giving her an AOE effect when mantra-ed, since every other mantra-ed effect is AOE, making them more desirable. I also think a new passive for her is very much needed, and one that can help add resolve her issue of lacking options.

Fikule1 votes

I agree her W needs tweaking The downside of making AoE is it then tries to compete with either Q or E in either damage or protection.

It would be nice if her W was back to targetting friendly or enemy champions with different effects again. This would give her a fourth ability. Then give it an ultimate that takes into account that it benefits a single target.

Maybe:

ACTIVE: Karma forms a tether between her and the target enemy, ally or monster Enemy: Deals magic damage over 2 seconds at 0.66-second intervals and granting true sight of them for the duration. If the target does not break the tether by moving out of range, they are rooted for a short time. **(1/1.37/1.75/2.13/2.5) Ally: Reduces their damage taken for 2 seconds by 20/25/30/35/40%. **

Ult: Karma heals for 20% (+ 1% per 100 AP) of her missing health at the start and end of the tether. Enemy: **The target is Grounded and slowed by 30% (+X AP) and the duration of the tether is increased by 50% ** Ally: Your ally is healed along with you.

New bits highlighted.

The idea is her W would be the best single target defense/offense. On an ally she can combine the R+W with E for a Heal, Damage Reduction and Shield all in one, making the target insanely hard to kill for 2 seconds. The damage reduction also works well with her shield as it boosts the value of each point of shield. Alternatively she can just R+E and W on a higher health ally for insane buffering on initiate.

The enemy version would stop enemies flashing or dashing in her W and make it easy for her to keep up with them. Having it last 50% longer increases the damage by 50% too and leaves them slower for longer. With the snare duration you are likely to get off two easy Q's here too.

BeeCuz1 votes

Itemization might become a problem if all her abilites were AOE

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