Elise's Neurotoxin feels very weak

Fikule·Mar 1, 2019·8 votes·3,697 views

Even late-game it feels like it deals very little damage.

Compared to Venomous Bite:

It has a very high mana cost (100 vs 0)
Lower base damage (180 vs 230) and lower base % scaling (4% vs 8%)
And while the bite gets stronger as the fight does on, Neurotoxin gets weaker.

The reasoning given for it's weak state currently is that it could be a heavy harass tool. So, why not alter that? Right now, using it on someone for harass is mostly hurting yourself as it does next to no damage in early lane but takes 80 mana from you at rank 1.

It's also claimed it did not feel good as a DoT, but I feel that was just because it's so focused on being the current health % to Venomous Bite's missing health % that it has no identity of it's own.

But a DoT is perfect to avoid the harass issue if done as a Neurotoxin.

My suggestion would be:

Neurotoxin ACTIVE: Elise fires toxin at the target enemy unit, poisoning the target for 2 seconds, dealing damage per second. Auto attacks and abilities increase the duration of the Neurotoxin, up to 10 seconds.

PASSIVE: Elise's spiderlings deal 1% of their target's current health as bonus damage while they're affected by Neurotoxin

Damage: 10/20/30/40/50 + (1% (+1.5% per 100 AP) of target's current health) Duration: 2 Seconds (+1 per auto attack) (+2 per ability hit)

Old Damage at rank 1 with 30AP + target with roughly 1500hp: 115

New Damage at rank 1 with 30AP + target with roughly 1500hp: Q Alone: 65 Q + W: 130 Q + W + E: 195 Q + W + E + Auto 227

Q + Spiderform Q + 6 attacks + 8 total attacks from spiderlings: 445

This heavily rewards her for getting a full combo off in human form, and rewards her more by going up close in spider form (though only the Q in spider form can extend the neurotoxin, aside from auto attacks, which she can perform faster in spider form.

It's also worth noting the damage mentioned is not accurate as their health would be lowered from multiple sources, reducing the % current health damage, while the number above assume 1500 each time, so the real damage would be lower.

This rewards her following up on Neurotoxin, but makes it very undesirable as a standalone attack, dealing almost half what it used to.

It also means she must choose to use her Cocoon first to guarantee her spider and neurotoxin hit or risk using neurotoxin first and missing, wasting mana. This turns her Q into a pseudo-skillshot since it relies on the follow up to deal real damage worth the mana cost while also making the neurotoxin cast a warning that she wants to follow up.

This creates a clear counterplay of backing up when Neurotoxin is cast, after 2 seconds, she has wasted mana for very little return, making it very ineffective as a harass tool, while making it much stronger if she can stick to a target.

All of this changes it's mechanics a lot, while keeping the ability very simple.

9 Comments

ChasmOfTrossmMar 1, 20193 votes

I like this as well. This topic deserves a huge bump.

SaezioMar 1, 20192 votes

I like dis

SaiannaMar 1, 20192 votes

Any and all magic damage currentHP% abilities are weak af. The design of this ability would only work if it dealt closer to true damage, because after 50% dmg reduction it hardly does anything

FikuleMar 1, 20191 votes

I think Killer of Night9 makes a good point with the synergy of Liandry's (and Crystal Sceptre) here though. The ability itself would deal more than it used to in cases where you commit. I think any further lack of damage can be made up for by the power of a DoT providing persistent item effects such as the slow and further % damage

Killer of Night9Mar 1, 20192 votes

Honestly i fell that 10 s would be crazy op (because of item 3151 ). I would rather change it to: 6/12/18/24/30 + (0,5% + (1% 100 ap) current hp) each 0,5 s. Base tick duration 2s. Human Aa and W = +0,5 s each on Spider aa and Q = +1s each one Max tick duration 5s.

Total dmg 60/120/180/240/300 +(5%+ (10% for 100 ap)) (For reach this value, you need to take risk)

No ap (lv 1 q) Min 24 + (2%) Max 60 + (5%)

600 ap (lv 5 Q) 120 + (26% current enemy health) 300 + (65% Current enemy health)

This work well with lyandri too.

The reward is a lot higher, require risk (going into spider form for better efford) but also is viable with liandry. If the value is still high reducing the hp ratio from 1% to 0,75% for 100 ap (i took it high must because % current health is weak against mr and anti sinergyse with dot effect and also make low sense for her Q that deal on missing health which make those two spell counterfunctional). If it's low instead increase the base dmg on early lv to (10/15/20/25/30).

FikuleMar 1, 20191 votes

You may be right in terms of total duration, but I feel achieving a full 10 seconds would require a lot of commitment (to the point where they'd already be dead)

5 seconds is also good though, although I notice the ability you described still uses 10 seconds as a max (as a 5 second duration would give half the damage amounts you describe)

My main worry was the balance between the starting duration giving you time to follow up and additional spells extending the duration at a rate that won't let the effect die out between.

Another possibility might simply be having it as a 2 second duration, refreshed by attacks, so it only ever lasts 2 seconds after the last hit, but can be refreshed indefinitely if she stays on you. This has the downside of being unable to quickly stack attacks together for a higher total duration.

ProfirixMar 1, 20191 votes

Every time I use that ability on Elise I always think the same thing..."that's it?" The cost is so high because they want to avoid using it as a spam tool but the damage output is so low that it is hardly worth using to harass anyway for the mana cost. I wouldn't mind a rework.

GodlyBaneMar 1, 20191 votes

because lets complain about meta champions that are good right?

NaalithMar 1, 20191 votes

Yeah, when Elise came out I'm pretty sure it did 8% current damage to match the 8% execute damage in spider form. Unfortunately she got absolutely obliterated because of pro play, which blows because she was one of my favorite champions back in the day. I remember being ecstatic with that amazing Shadow Isles login, spammed her for like a year, then she got the Victorious skin and it was my first season in gold, felt amazing.

Bring her back rito. I know you like Lee and Xin too much, but Elise can be fodder for the OP duelist junglers, think of how great that'd be for your beloved champions.