Taric is not a very good kill-lane support. Leona, Alistar, Blitz, Brand and several others are significantly better than Taric. You know this.... he is flimsy.
Taric isn't a kill lane support. I agree. He's a buff support.
That was my point.
Saying he's a weaker support because he doesn't do as much damage as someone who is supposed to be outputting good damage is a tad silly.
Except Leona also contributes to damage indirectly via her passive, I was talking about direct damage of which Leona still overtakes Taric by a significant amount.
Leona is supposed to do damage. She's exactly what I'm referring to by having power budget invested into that damage. She's borderline bruiser. Some even use her that way!
Morgana as a support offers FAR more than just damage... her utility is one of the highest of any character in the game.
Morgana is a utility mage and functions as a kill lane support. She bring black shield, a root, and a delayed stun. Her damage is horribly unreliable unless you land the root first. But her play metric is to do a lot of damage to anyone she can properly combo.
Compare to Taric who brings bonus armor aura, armor shred, heal, stun, bonus AD&AP. A lot more of his power budget is invested in that utility which is why he can't output the same level of damage as others.
Except that "window of power" only gives him access to a mediocre set of benefits that are almost completely useless on him and only marginally useful on his ADC.
70 AD and AP with a rank 3 ult.
+21 health on ally heal, 29.4 on self heal.
+14-28 damage on dazzle.
+70 AD [self explanatory]
Taric has 117 AD at level 18. With ult he has 187.
For comparison:
Mordekaiser has 146 (highest base).
Zed (counting bonus) has 141.25.
Despite being a buff support, Taric is still a tank. He wants to be on the front line whaling on people. 70 bonus AD isn't "useless".
His Aura is marginally useful on everyone, not just useful for the ADC. Again, his ult isn't meant to benefit one person; that's why the individual numbers are low.
Your comparison was nonsense.
By that logic, we could argue that Alistar's AD buff is stronger/weaker because, AD = AD.... the reason Vayne's AD is important is because it's focused on the person that needs it (ADC) and because of her multipliers (Q/Crit/ASPD/etc.).
It really depends on how you play Alistar. But saying the bonuses are useless because the beneficiary does things other than AA is equally nonsense.
Taric uses AA's [and shatter] as his primary source of damage. Alistar's ult gives him a damage option outside his CC combo.
I'll concede they use it less effectively than an ADC, but they still use it.
Ok, let me explain this again;
That's not how math works, you do not add the numbers spread across everyone into one neat package. He does not give "90 total AD" , he gives 30 to himself and 15 to each ally. If it gave 90 AD to a single character (Not him) it would be a fantastic ult.
Ok... My understanding is 30+15+15+15+15 = 90. If that's not how math works, then science may have a problem. (>_>)
If 90 damage is done by 1 person or spread out over 5, what difference does it make? 90 damage is still done. That's the core principle around which auras are balanced.
Is it always going to work that way? no. But if we assume only 1 or 2 people use it, then it becomes OP with all 5. Taric's Ult is really strong when used optimally (I've been saying this from the start).
I understand where you're coming from. You would rather have less total output that you are certain will be fully utilized. I agree! But that doesn't make the other approach weaker.
Taric's self buff is meaningless. His damage is a joke and one of the lowest of any support regardless of his ultimate. Even if his ult gave 200 AD/AP, Taric's damage would still be very low per game.
There's more to a support than damage. Taric invests a lot of budget into his buffs; damage falls off as a consequence. That doesn't mean he won't AA. The self buff gives him respectable damage (for a support) during fights. But he's not going to output damage equal to champions designed for it for most of the game. If you're looking to do damage as support, you really shouldn't be using Taric.
Except once again, you are assuming every character benefits from Taric's aura and is within range. That is the classic argument of theory vs. practice. You argue the potential, I will argue reality. You will lose every time.
I'm going to say this again.
"Radiance is actually pretty strong when used optimally."
Also, what characters don't benefit from his Aura? Off the top of my head, I can't think of any champion that doesn't use AD or AP. There's a handful that only use one. Some champions benefit more from his aura than other, definitely.
Also, his Aura radius is 1100. The longest AA range is is Cait's headshot at 1300, followed by Twitch's ult at 850. The aura puts him at the edge of Xerath's threat range. So.... who is sitting out of range here? Jhin?
The nice part about that is; The ADC will generally be in the back and not the primary , or often even secondary, focus .... and if the ADC gets targeted, Janna conveniently has (arguably) the best peel in the game.
You're right. She does. But now we're comparing kits. I'm already making the basic assumption that both abilities are utilized optimally. That has been my entire basis from the start.
Also, who is your team targeting; The tank? Or are we assuming both teams are using siege comps with Illaoi and Taric playing checkers in the middle?
That assumes Janna will not have a shield cast on someone as the fight begins.... but sure, let's use your skewed numbers.
It's assuming she casts the shield the moment the fight begins. I'm skewing this in her favor already and you want to nit-pick the scenario even more?
The difference being, you are comparing an ULTIMATE vs. a NON ULTIMATE and even giving extremely generous benefits to Radiance, it still loses.
Um..... and I'm not giving extremely generous benefits to Eye of the storm?
3 casts.
300 AP.
And it comes out ahead by 87 gold.
I'm sorry. How much AP does Janna normally end with?
The pop radius has atrocious range.... getting that close will also tend to place him away from his ADC, which is a bad thing.
I agree the pop radius is sad. If he's fighting and the ADC isn't his Aura range though, he probably shouldn't be fighting.
Even under optimal circumstances, the benefit is so flimsy and insignificant so as to not even exist.
The whole point is to give a smaller individual benefit to a larger group, rather than a smaller total benefit to an individual. You're trading consistent output for peak potential.
As a principle, neither approach is weaker. It's just a question of which you would prefer. As stated above, I also prefer consistency; but that doesn't make consistency better.
Incorrect.
Janna's shield gives greater benefit to the target that needs it the most therefore Janna's shield comes out ahead in both quick skirmishes and extended teamfights.
Taric gives a bigger benefit to the team. Janna gives a bigger benefit to an individual. If you're doing quick skirmishes, Janna comes ahead because of the low CD. In a full on team fight, Taric provides more raw stats.
Except , yet again, Janna is giving the damage benefit (AD) to the person that will make the best use of it (ADC or AD scaling champ like Talon/Zed) whereas Taric is wasting a large chunk of his aura on characters that will not benefit from his aura in any meaningful way.
Hmm..... Again. What champion doesn't use AD or AP? If they benefit from the buff in a fight, the buff is meaningful.
Do you instead mean in an "overtly significant" way? Of course, Riven isn't going to use the AP, but the AD is still valuable. Or perhaps you want the power shifted into a single stat. Say, each ally gets 50 AD, but no AP. Of course, that means the aura is wasted on Karthus would would rather have the AP.
Just because champion A gets more use out of a buff than champion B, that doesn't mean champion B wasn't effectively buffed unless they genuinely can't use the buff.
Except because Eye of the Storm is targeted, it will overwhelmingly be used on the correct target, under optimal scenario.... whereas Radiance is highly dependent and even stacking the numbers heavily, it still flounders against a non ultimate skill.
Radiance is a team oriented skill. It excels in the presence of a team. It's not floundering, it's restricted. Janna's shield isn't team oriented, it benefits a single person. Eye of the storm will only ever effect 1 person and is balanced as such. Radiance has to be balanced around the potential of affecting 5 people, and therefore can't be balanced assuming only 1 beneficiary.
Basically, to finish this;
There's a reason we're not seeing a swath of Taric players in LCS or Worlds.
And no, it has nothing to do with how he "Feels", it has to do with him being putrid scoriae.
Note however, that Janna has seen high level play over multiple seasons' tournaments.
Do you understand?
"Feels"? (o_O)
AS for high level and organized play. Ultimately, Taric's niche is being a ball of stats for the team. That niche isn't particularly valuable in an organized environment. He can't lock-down, his damage output is overall sub-par, doesn't harass well, and his healing is outclassed by other supports. When you compare raw stats (his biggest asset) to the play-making potential of a Tahm ult, the hard lock-down and burst of a Leona dive, or the versatility of Thresh; Taric simply doesn't stack up. This doesn't make him bad, it just makes others more valuable. Though admittedly, that's a very fine line in a competitive environment.
Conversely, Janna is the "queen of peel" for a reason. She's not picked because of the AD buff on her shield, she's picked because she can peel almost anything not named Olaf.
I don't need to stack-the-deck against Radiance...
And yet you do just that, by assuming he will always buff people that can't use it and that he will never use it himself; meanwhile claiming Janna's shield won't pop and always be used off CD.
[Found the character limit!]
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cough
needs more
