Boards›Gameplay

BloodRazor should have a DOT like liandries (up to 60 instant)

LilxPaprika··1 votes·1,228 views

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2016/05/510-pbe-update.html

regarding the tentative changes on pbe: Bloodrazor is gaining 50% as and 4% max health on hit dmg.

Math comparison:

Gold Value of warrior 60 attack damage = 2100 Gold 10% cooldown reduction = 300 Gold Total Gold Value = 2400 Gold

50% attack speed = 1250 gold 15 on hit is valued at 375 (edit obtained from recurve bow). lets say its 300 because its magic damage. at 60 on hit that's 1200 gold worth. Total Gold Value = 2450 Gold

its already worth more than warrior.

60 on hit is reached at 1500 hp with 4% dmg. So around level 13 depending on champion many are likely to have hp from runes mastery as well or one hp item.

I propose that the remaining damage be a dot. if your on hit does more than 60 the rest should be over time.

4k hp on say chogath, mundo, sion ... = 3200 gold worth of on hit +50% attack speed = 4450 gold! 4450-2400 = 2050 gold more gold worth than warrior

17 Comments

Rebonack1 votes

The purpose of the two items are pretty different, though.

Warrior is nice on folks who want early/mid-game domination to feed their AD ratios.

Bloodrazor augments basic attacks ONLY, however it can't crit and it can't lifesteal. Ostensibly it should be attractive on champions who want oodles of attack speed and have some other non-crit means of amplifying its OnHit effect. Simply put, finding a sweet-spot for an item that adds attack speed/onhit and nothing else is really tricky.

LilxPaprika1 votes

the value of the item factoring all these things you pointed out is already established by riot at 375 damage. I'm being generous by listing it at 300

it has a lot of benefits though, it can avoid thornmail damage you'll be effective even if the enemy has mostly armor. and regardless of if it can't crit you get more of it than you would ad.

SlashStriker1 votes

{quoted}

the value of the item factoring all these things you pointed out is already established by riot at 375 damage. I'm being generous by listing it at 300

it has a lot of benefits though, it can avoid thornmail damage you'll be effective even if the enemy has mostly armor. and regardless of if it can't crit you get more of it than you would ad.

Thornmail got 100 armor. Without penetration the item won't do its job

If you think you can purely rely on the item to do everything i will tell you that the enemy ADC will delete. If thats the case good luck in future games

masterdragon4811 votes

Technically, you are wrong to say it can't life steal. Life steal heals for all physical damage done on hit. So as long as you have lifesteal in your build somewhere, you will heal from the damage bloodrazor does.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Technically, you are wrong to say it can't life steal. Life steal heals for all physical damage done on hit. So as long as you have lifesteal in your build somewhere, you will heal from the damage bloodrazor does.

No.

It doesn't.

BotRK's OnHit damage rather specifically lifesteals. The only way to get healed off other OnHit damage is with DD or Gunblade's respective passives.

masterdragon4811 votes

Then why does jhin heal off the %missing hp portion of his 4th shot? Why do sheen effects result in more healing?

"Life steal is an offensive stat that restores health to the wielder for a percentage of all on-hit physical damage they deal, except for Corki's Basic attacks, which also applies life steal on magic damage. Basic attacks, abilities that apply on-hit effects, and abilities that modify basic attacks all benefit from lifesteal"

From the wiki, reference is http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3848328#post41386754

Which has CertainlyT stating: "Spell Vamp -- activated abilities that do not state they "apply on-hit effects" or modify your "next basic attack" benefit from spell vamp, those that do apply on-hits/modify your next basic attack benefit from lifesteal."

Now, spell vamp isn't a thing anymore, the the latter part is still true. You heal for ALL physical on hit damage you deal via life steal.

The reason gunblade comes up (like in the case of jax) is because his on hit damage is magic. Life steal doesn't help there, thus gunblade picking up the sustain there.

i made the same mistake a little while ago, and tested (specifically with jhin on dragon since its easier that way) and found what I have said (and what the wiki supports) to be true.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Then why does jhin heal off the %missing hp portion of his 4th shot? Why do sheen effects result in more healing?

Because Lifesteal works on (most) On Next Hit effects. See: Nasus, Trundle, Shy, ect. The only OnHit lifesteal works with is BotRK's passive as it was specifically coded to work with lifesteal. Unless Riot has since changed lifesteal to work with all OnHit physical damage, you still need DD or Gunblade.

LilxPaprika1 votes

you cannot lifesteal off the on hit portion of bloodrazor . you can omni vamp though. like jax with gunblade.

masterdragon4811 votes

Then why does jhin heal off the %missing hp portion of his 4th shot? Why do sheen effects result in more healing?

"Life steal is an offensive stat that restores health to the wielder for a percentage of all on-hit physical damage they deal, except for Corki's Basic attacks, which also applies life steal on magic damage. Basic attacks, abilities that apply on-hit effects, and abilities that modify basic attacks all benefit from lifesteal"

From the wiki, reference is http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3848328#post41386754

Which has CertainlyT stating: "Spell Vamp -- activated abilities that do not state they "apply on-hit effects" or modify your "next basic attack" benefit from spell vamp, those that do apply on-hits/modify your next basic attack benefit from lifesteal."

Now, spell vamp isn't a thing anymore, the the latter part is still true. You heal for ALL physical on hit damage you deal via life steal.

The reason gunblade comes up (like in the case of jax) is because his on hit damage is magic. Life steal doesn't help there, thus gunblade picking up the sustain there.

i made the same mistake a little while ago, and tested (specifically with jhin on dragon since its easier that way) and found what I have said (and what the wiki supports) to be true.

masterdragon4811 votes

Edit: Whoops, hadn't seen the buff on today's pbe bringing the attack speed back to 50%

the 50% is being reverted to 40% and the damage is going up to 4% max health. Bloodrazor deals physical damage. What 15 on hit? There is no 15 damage on hit. If its 4% max health, it doesn't reach 60 damage (equal to warrior) until the target has at least 1500 health.

Second, its not great to compare these two items like this, they are doing very different things. Warrior applies to champion abilities and auto attacks (as opposed to just auto attacks of bloodrazor) meaning it "double dips" more on its gold efficiency. It also makes it easier to use, bloodrazor requires you be in auto attack range to use; warrior does not have the same restriction and thus the extra risk attacked to bloodrazor results in higher damage.

Lastly, a burn is a terrible idea unless a portion of it is reapplied every auto attack (just like red buff is now). Otherwise, its not benefiting its intended group of auto attack, on hit champions that is it being designed to benefit.

LilxPaprika1 votes

where does it say the 50%is reverted to 40%?

I'm basing it off of the 5/10 pbe?

15 on hit dmg is the value of on hit on recurve bow

and even versus a 1k hp champion =800 + 1250 = 2050. you only sacrifice 350 gold early game in exchange for potentially 2k gold in value late. your likelyhood of facing a 1k hp champion will not be long. champions will be level 8 or 9 usually by the time you face them with blood razor a Sivir without doran blade has 1172 hp at level 8.

masterdragon4811 votes

The attack speed thing is my bad, yesterday the pbe had the increase to 4% max health but reduced the attack speed from 50% to 40%. I didn't realize there was a pbe update today, nor that it has the attack speed buff back on the table.

The 15 damage on hit doesn't transfer over to the bloodrazor, so you shouldn't be using that as an arguing point; its not actually in the stats anywhere. If you are trying to make an argument for build paths, thats different and also needs to be analyzed differently.

Your analysis only shows that bloodrazor is more cost effective than warrior, but only after a certain point in the game. Side note: in order for bloodrazor to deal damage equal to that of warrior, the target must have >= 1500 health (4% of 1500 is 60). Therefore warrior is more cost effective for a large portion of the early/mid game (adc's reach between 1800 and 1900 health at level 18) while again, providing a different set of strengths to a different set of champions.

Example? Talon is ALWAYS going to prefer Warrior over blood razor. Khazix, Rengar, even Lee sin, are all going to prefer warrior due to their kits. If you tried to analyze warrior vs blood razor on these champions, you would find that warrior is better (at all stages) of the game for them. It isn't enough to just analyze the gold values.

SlashStriker1 votes

you propose nerf to Bloodrazor or something? 4k hp on say chogath, mundo, sion ... = 3200 gold worth of on hit +50% attack speed = 4450

if I 1 shot enemy vayne because i got Infinity Edge in less than 0.5 seconds with Yi how much is the gold value on it? 20 000 gold?

The item right now is made to scale well vs health stackers but you forget they also build armor which reduce the razor effect by alot and without penetration you do no damage. Garen with 300 armor is will take 4 times less damage from razor. In that case what is the value?

did you forget about this item item 3153 ?

  • attack speed
  • lifesteal
  • small amount of AD
  • lifesteal works on passive
  • 6% current health damage

whats the value?

WARRIOR SUCKS BALLS! GET IT? ITS TEMPORARY ITEM (I hope) couple of item way better than it item 3812 item 3071 item 3508

item 3077 tiamat > item 1412 Warrior just because it allows you to clean the jungle fast which warrior does not provide in any form

you might get early game spike but lategame you better sell it and get better items like item 3074 item 3812 item 3071 you gave 2k something Gold and now you have to sell it for better item? Cost efficiency in that moment goes to the abyss

LilxPaprika1 votes

{quoted}

if I 1 shot enemy vayne because i got Infinity Edge in less than 0.5 seconds with Yi how much is the gold value on it? 20 000 gold?

if you 1 shot the enemy vayne thats a completely different story. that's a high reward approach involving multiple offensive items. making you very vulnerable in doing so.

Quepha1 votes

On-hit champions are gold dependent champions, they are supposed to get more value out of their gold and they're supposed to need those items to succeed.

They're usually weak early game champions that are supposed to balance out their lack of early power with a steeper damage curve.

Sneakyy XD1 votes

Why are you wanting to nerf an already-bad item?

rG Thundrag1 votes

Some people seem to be forgetting that lifesteal works on the bloodrazor passive just like bork.

If you combine the 2 items you have an incredible sustain set up vs tanks

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by LilxPaprika

Nasus siphoning should start off soft and get louder the more stacks you have
Gameplay51 comments
183
votes
Rageblade Iteration #5ish
Gameplay36 comments
45
votes
Another Solution to tank meta: Buff Zeke's Herald
Gameplay33 comments
13
votes
Rageblade Back in Action
Gameplay15 comments
12
votes
Titanic Hydra is only 78%cost effective w/o passive
Gameplay22 comments
12
votes
Grey Health Boots
Gameplay13 comments
11
votes