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Rageblade Back in Action

LilxPaprika·Feb 27, 2015·12 votes·3,002 views

Recommissioned and ready to get it on. So i've been making a lot of posts around rageblade lately. I figured i'd go ahead and create a clear visual of the proposed build path / stats changes that's easy for people to digest. See picture below

Values are of course subject to change. But let me know what you guys think of it.

{EDIT} added ~~strikethrough~~ over the 60 seconds cooldown on rageblade. However, instead of having the unique passive end after 10 seconds of neither dealing nor receiving damage. this will be changed to 3 seconds. (same as the frenzy crit mastery) Second edit: fixed the flat 5% lifesteal/spellvamp you get upfront. Had it as another passive, changed and put it along with the flat ad ap it gives you. Edit #3. Same as second edit but on the 'Guinsoon's butter knive', also lowered the ap to 20 from 25.

http://i.imgur.com/doHcYzU.jpg

EDIT: What I have so far based in part on your inputs: http://i.imgur.com/LqEVohs.jpg

15 Comments

SenpaiAutomaticFeb 27, 20154 votes

id like to see rageblade back, especially in a more accessible form, i can see jax buying this over botrk in a non tank matchup. buy options like this are what keep this game interesting.

junglerboy16Feb 27, 20153 votes

Rageblade is still in game anyway, so... yeah.

QazgirFeb 27, 20152 votes

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aaronconlinFeb 27, 20151 votes

The only time I build Rageblade is on Kayle sometimes if I don't really need anything else, and I've been wanting to try it on Tryndamere for fun. But I definitely agree it needs some love

LilxPaprikaFeb 27, 20151 votes

At first glance this item seems niche but you might be surprised at how many champions could legitimately use it not just in solo queue but also for diamond/tournament lvl play (assuming it gets a buff): I posted this here:

a buff to rageblade is a buff to expanding the repertoire of viable build options for a slew of champions including:shen, xinzhao, volibear (ult), warwick, udyr (Not just for PhoenixDyr either, did you know his q has a 100% spellvamp ratio), shaco, skarn, jax, shyvana (below mallet example), sion, irelia, the new fizz, nidalee, evelyn, poppy. Kennen electrical surge passive auto scales with ad. Similarly can make use of some ad. if can pull off full AD leblanc. then there's no reason a couldn't benefit from rageblade. The attackspeed on her passive would synergize with the extra ad. And spell vamp is a good item on her, her ult gives her 100% spellvamp.

Even Akali since her passive gives her auto's ap dmg getting attack speed is worth while item on her. I think akali with rylais wouldn't necessarily need the slow from gunblade and could be fine with just getting rageblade instead. I'd say it would work on shyvana but probably not since she has no cc (unless she got mallet) actually come to think of it that would be pretty good. So rageblade mallet wits end could be a viable build. Finally a build that doesn't call forth the mighty sheen. and this works nicely as shyvana doesn't use mana.

I cant believe i didnt add Aatrox to the list

aaronconlinFeb 27, 20151 votes

Actually I take that back, I have built it on AD Kennen and on Diana a couple times, but it's been a while. I see it on Jax sometimes, and ADC/Attack Speed Lulu. It's a cool item, and I love building out of the ordinary items so Im all for buffing it to make it more viable

Avant BardFeb 27, 20151 votes

EDIT: I guess you did add a total of 10% net spellvamp, but this still seems like poor compensation.

This seems like an overall, pretty hefty Nerf to the item. You move some of the power from its triggerable passive into its passive stats, but you increase the gold cost dramatically, and split the item's focus. The idea of gating the item's lifesteal/spell vamp with low health is to encourage and reward committing to an engagement, or 'going all-in'. But passive lifesteal and spellvamp instead encourage sustain and passive play (e.g. The 'Might as well back off and heal up' mindset).

Also riot really, really hates having stats disappear when you upgrade an item. They've overhauled their item philosophy so that any value lost is exclusively in gold, and never in apparent stats. Having an item that builds out of dagger but doesn't include attack speed as part of its base stats will never fly.

I do like that you're paying attention to Rageblade. Its one of my favorite items. Fun fact, it is gives the 2nd most total attackspeed in the game( 52% with full stacks and an active passive), and is BY FAR the most gold efficient item in the game if you can take advantage of all of its stats. IIRC it has a stat value of approximately ~5600 gold according to the wiki's gold analysis (which i can no longer find) which is more than twice it's actual cost.

LilxPaprikaFeb 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This seems like an overall, pretty hefty Nerf to the item. You move some of the power from its triggerable passive into its passive stats, but you increase the gold cost dramatically, and split the item's focus. The idea of gating the item's lifesteal/spell vamp with low health is to encourage and reward committing to an engagement, or 'going all-in'. But passive lifesteal and spellvamp instead encourage sustain and passive play (e.g. The 'Might as well back off and heal up' mindset). reward committing to an engagement, or 'going all-in'.

for the most part at 50% health you typically have to make the decision to commit or not anyways (fight or flight). And having the thought of oh surge is up (i better go in) this shouldn't supercede knowing your limits. what i mean is.... you just know you characters limits or not. You know whether to go in or not. This item just lets you adjust how much you think your limits are. Not the other way around. As such having surge trigger and realizing you shouldn't commit only to find out 15 seconds later that its now time to commit only to find out that surge is on cooldown.

First off I want to emphasize that some of the values are highly subject to change, in fact I didn't even do the math yet, I guesstimated the cost points of the items, its mostly to reach a general idea to then hand it over the riot where they can then finalize it with number crunching.

I felt the same way at first. But as of late i've kind of changed my stance on it. and am now favoring a bit of upfront sustain particularly to survive the laning phase top.

quick quesiton Are you against the flat lifesteal or removing the 30% second cooldown, or both, because they are both factors that sort of turn rageblade into a more consistent sustain item. (which I think it ought to be (more consistent that is) to stand up to the current meta. and the one thing I think was holding it back so much as an item).

here's my reasoning The way I see it there aren't enough slots in this game to warrant going for two sustain items unless you going full dps anyways. especially since this item is intended for bruisers that can live below 50% health and make it worth their while. This is why rageblade needs to focus more on sustaining than not.

Also riot really, really hates having stats disappear when you upgrade an item. They've overhauled their item philosophy so that any value lost is exclusively in gold, and never in apparent stats. Having an item that builds out of dagger but doesn't include attack speed as part of its base stats will never fly.

that's fine, but thats no reason to restrict innovation/improvements in the name of a policy. Don't draw the line just because of this, it would inhibit progress. Riot has also said they wouldn't do things like Kalista ult or gnar ult. Bard also pushes the envelope. And I think it made the game all the more interesting for it. I don't mind some structure to build off of, otherwise everything would lose its identity. All you have to do is invent a new item then. like they did for Aether Wisp (as + mov speed in one)... maybe make an attackspeed+ ap two in one item.

Avant BardFeb 27, 20151 votes

I like the idea of having the cool down shortened or removed, but that doesn't really change the item much. Its more of a QoL change. For the most part, the cool down effectively is nonexistent, because there is almost no situation where it will be on cool down and you have to use the item. If the item is activated, and you are fighting then it will be in effect for as long as you are fighting. If you stop fighting for long enough for it to deactivate, you're probably done fighting, and it will probably be back up in time for you to use it again. There are few situations where I'm going to be at critical health (low enough for the item to activate) from combat, then for some reason STOP combat for 10 seconds (maybe a really, really extended chase?), and then need it again in the next minute.

I'm against the flat sustain stats. One of riots few legitimate design ideals that they ACTUALLY stick to is clarity of identity. If you want an item that helps you sustain all the time, then buy some regen, or a gunblade. Rageblade's intended identity is the 'clutch all in play' item. But if you want more meaningful design, try to sharpen Rageblad's ID as you change it. Maybe make it interact with already existing sustain mechanics. Have it increase self-healing instead of provide a spellvamp and lifesteal bonus at low health. Or find a way to tie in its oddly out of place stat combo with sustain (e.g. health back on hit, or percentage of all damage done). But I think tossing some digits between the active passive and innate stats isn't the way to approach this.

LilxPaprikaFeb 28, 20151 votes

for now i want to say that the rageblade 10 secs , you'd be surprised how often it does happen. I know seems ample. yet the travel distance / setting yourself up for the kill can often take too long. There are a lot of weird scenarios too. Like say you just did dragon with it and it triggered your rageblade. you go to recall half way through you see them dive your mid. cancelling recall to help them, would be nice to have surge up. I tried walking from gromp to scuttle with tier one boots and couldn't keep it up. plus its annoying to always be in a race against time. Its also takes your mind on the countless other things to be aware off. its just extra hassle.

I'll see what i can come up with for now though i'd be happy with keeping it as is just remove the cooldown and buff its spellvamp if its a** stand alone** spellvamp item to 20%. and give it like 45 base ap.

Why standalone... Its sort of the spellvamp's equivalent to bloodthirsters not being stackable.A way to prevent there being too much sustain from being jammed into one build. to keep champions like Warwick in check from going haywire. You could still go both gunblade and rageblade but just know you won't be getting all your moneys worth. It'll still work decent together, like it currently is (except pricier).

Nevermind how bout this: 12% lifesteal and 25% spellvamp to really encourage the enemy to get morello etc. or to a lesser degree relevant could pick varus mf kat. Ignite and morello really counters you. And during champ select champions notorious for using rageblade will be spotted and can be countered fairly easily with a support (with ignite) or mid pick that uses morello. It ends up being 6%lifesteal/12% spellvamp. which is meh. attackspeed champs do dmg over time anyways so they could really use the sustain. as opposed to zhonia champs that drop their payload and call it a day. Edit : okay, okay, maybe I went a little too far with 25% Okay I think a sweet spot to begin testing would be 12% life steal 20% spellvamp. That way the 'butter knife'/rageblade Jr. Item could get a surge minor passive giving 6%ls, and 10% sv below 50% HP. I would also probably keep the 10 second uptime on surge after combat. I can see how you said it looked like a nerf.* Maybe do a 10seconds from enemy champions but 3 for creeps/monsters. * One thing is for sure itll keep its identity and then some of being notoriously good at healing. But can still be countered.

In fact that's originally what I set out to do, then I suppose i got a little greedy and wanted to add flat sustain as well. I think my thought process was to have just enough to stay even in the jungle at max health. For now its a good starting point ...would be nice to see it on pbe to help spark the conversation.

One place it does shine however is if you choose to go with either rylais or ibg then you don't necessarily need a slow on gunblade. especially if you already have chilling smite as well. So this item would fit the bill here. A nautilus could make use of it he has plenty of cc as is and doesn't need an extra slow, his passive benefits from as and can lifesteal. Not that he couldnt benefit from IBG, better yet how about a lich bane that can lifesteal see post below.

I'd like to hear your take on these two other threads I made: Perseverance regen Also this is pretty relevant, my suggestion for allowing lich bane to lifesteal. http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2x5pl6/lichbane_the_return_of_the_now_lesser_seen_item/

What are your thoughts on dagger? Do you they they should make an aether wisp type item instead? Combining as and ap.

junglerboy16Feb 27, 20151 votes

Personally, I think that the coolest aspect of the item is that ramp up to becoming extremely powerful. Having the LS and SV be split between the stats and the 50% health passive would make it feel better to use in general, but would kind of mess up the whole point of getting a huge surge of stats when you are in a bad situation. Rather than just messing with the recipe and build path, I think that it needs to have better end game stats. My idea would be to have a median item like you suggested, but make the final upgrade even stronger.

Something like this Magus' Battle Staff: Pickaxe+Blasting wand+365 gold (2100 total)= 25 AD, 40 AP. Passive, Rage: Basic attacks and spell casts grant 2% AS and 2 AP for 8 seconds, max 8 stacks. (84.3% efficient unstacked, 123.7% efficient at max stacks)

This item does not reach the same amount of gold efficiency as Rageblade currently does, but it costs 500 gold less and is supposed to provide an easy to build mid game item that can be built into the new version of Rageblade.

Guinsoo's Rageblade: MBS+Longsword+Amp tome+405 gold (3300 total)= 40 AD 60 AP. Passive, Rage: Basic attacks and spell casts grant 5% AS and 5 AP for 8 seconds, max 8 stacks. Unique passive, Surge: Falling below 50% health grants 20% AS, 10% Lifesteal, and 15% Spell vamp until out of combat for 8 seconds. 30 second cooldown once effect ends. (83.2% efficient unstacked, 145.9% efficient fully stacked, 193.2% efficient with both passives)

This version of Rageblade has almost exactly the same cost efficiency as the current Rageblade (live's minimum gold efficiency is 75%, and its max gold efficiency is 193.5%), but more importantly is a lot more slot efficient, with a maximum gold—>slot ratio of 6377.5 gold per slot, as opposed to live's 5031 gold per slot. these changes makes it a comparable late game item for champs who might want to use it, without being such a generally good item that it becomes a must buy on everyone.

LilxPaprikaFeb 28, 20151 votes

{quoted} Something like this Magus' Battle Staff: Pickaxe+Blasting wand+365 gold (2100 total)= 25 AD, 40 AP. Passive..... but it costs 500 gold less and is supposed to provide an easy to build mid game item that can be built into the new version of Rageblade.

2100g is not that much of an improvement over rb. I'm looking at something a bit closer to cutlass but also a bit stronger. bigger mid game spike but less flat sustain or cc. so around the 1500-1900 price point.

They deem rageblade's combined passives to be worth 865. In this latest revision: http://i.imgur.com/b5bsDcH.jpg butter knife's rendition of these passives are about half as potent. so I guess that would make them worth 432.5 gold worth. so lets call it say 450

aether wisp plus longsword is 1210 + 450 = 1760. I think we have a winner. It landed pretty spot on where I was aiming.

LilxPaprikaFeb 28, 20151 votes

K I have a new idea how's this: UNIQUE ACTIVE: Instantly reach max stacks. This will be gated by a 180 second cooldown to discourage its use for anything but the more important times(as well as justify it being added at little to no extra cost).

It will have a clear on screen effect to warn the enemy. This is mostly designed for when say your recalling in a bush and get interrupted. This way people will think twice before interrupting your recall.

LilxPaprikaMar 3, 20151 votes

Can we get this to hit front page? I'd really like to get a response from the riot team.

added this: http://i.imgur.com/LqEVohs.jpg

IwfiKe3qjMMar 15, 20151 votes

for the Butter Knife better be: Longsword (360) + Amplifying Tome (435) + 405 = 1200

15 AD 20 AP

Passive: Basic attacks (on attack) and spell casts grant +2 AP and +2% AS stacks to 8 times for 8 seconds

and for Guinsoo Rageblade: Longsword (360) + Butter Knife (1200) + Amplifying Tome (435) + 805 = 2800

30 AD 40 AP

Passive: Basic attacks (on attack) and spell casts grant +8 AP and +8% AS stacks to 5 times for 8 seconds

Unique Passive: Falling below 50% health grants +25% AS, +10% L Steal, and +10% S Vamp until out of combat

(dunno about cooldown)

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