ive had lategame adc literally facetanking my spin with 3 lifesteal items through a thornmail and 300 armor.
+ warlords
can we turn at least some of them into unique passives to prevent these extreme cases where people just stack all of them? this is ridiculous right now.
ZT Xperimentor4 votesDiscussed at length, but I agree, tired of marksmen & physical assassins having so much sustain without counters.
AlwaysByMySide3 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-06-19T06:30:53.717+0000)
ive had lategame adc literally facetanking my spin with 3 lifesteal items through a thornmail and 300 armor.
I doubt it.
Post the match history.
Critmaster Garen2 votes[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-06-19T07:05:11.211+0000)
I doubt it.
Post the match history.
how does the match history help you in this case? youd need a replay and i dont have one. but it did happen.
AlwaysByMySide2 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-06-19T07:12:47.761+0000)
how does the match history help you in this case? youd need a replay and i dont have one. but it did happen.
Because for all I know you're lying.
I want to see your build and the enemy ADC's build, and hopefully try it out in a custom game with a friend of mine.
Very Hard Engage4 votes[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-06-19T07:05:11.211+0000)
I doubt it.
Post the match history.
he cant because he doesn't play because this is a smurf which exists for boards. and he wont reveal his main for fear of "Just another bronzie who got rolled."
Very Hard Engage3 voteslifesteal is as potent as it is because of how potent poke actually is. 2 nida spears = dead adc. or 1 jayce Q can literally make or break a siege if it hits the back line.
although i would rather see stronger heals from supports than item power.
Critmaster Garen3 voteslifesteal is as potent as it is because of how potent poke actually is. 2 nida spears = dead adc. or 1 jayce Q can literally make or break a siege if it hits the back line.
although i would rather see stronger heals from supports than item power.
this is why you have tanks to body block skillshots, and proper positioning.
basically youre saying its ok for adc to have this much lifesteal, because they want to be able to facetank and out sustain nidalee spears. well theyre not supposed to be able to.
how does a vayne need the ability to out sustain these things, when she has the perfect kit to avoid them in the first place?
Very Hard Engage3 voteshow does vayne ever have the right to 1v1 and "outplay" you at that stage in the game.
oh wait a sejuani hit her with her ult... and she got blown up. oh wait the AP mid laner 100-0'd her by themselves. oh wait someone on the team bought 
BT/MS/Bork is a bad build to have together, it only beats prolonged, low damage dealing engages, im sorry you lost at champ select.
Critmaster Garen3 voteshow does vayne ever have the right to 1v1 and "outplay" you at that stage in the game.
man, i got completely outplayed by her right mouse button. just waiting to see her in the LCS. kid has a bright future.
you did read through the op right? she was sitting inside the spin just auto attacking.
to be fair, she did hover her mouse over me and pressed a button to hit me with the bork active.
if youre saying stacking lifesteal items is not a good idea due to executioners anyways, then there is no argument to not prevent them from stacking.
glad were on the same page.
Very Hard Engage1 votesfeel free to git gud and have a proper 5v5
Critmaster Garen2 votesfeel free to git gud and have a proper 5v5
it was in a 5v5. i was the only one to get through to her, since my mates got walled off by her team and basically had to 1v1 her.
it doesnt even matter. an adc should not be able to facetank a bruiser, period. they have a range/utility/mobility advantage on most champions. they should at the very least be forced to use it.
we were both full build btw. she wasnt ahead. i was running
her build
she had the villain mark too.
AlwaysByMySide1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-19T13:28:57.398+0000)
it was in a 5v5. i was the only one to get through to her, since my mates got walled off by her team and basically had to 1v1 her.
it doesnt even matter. an adc should not be able to facetank a bruiser, period. they have a range/utility/mobility advantage on most champions. they should at the very least be forced to use it.
we were both full build btw. she wasnt ahead. i was running
her build
she had the villain mark too.
Also, didn't you say Vayne had three lifesteal items?
Oh, and where's your Sterak's Gage?
Also, BAHAHAHAHAHAHAH you fucking liar, she didn't tank you while she was the fucking villain.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=0005000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-20T18:50:08.166+0000)
Also, didn't you say Vayne had three lifesteal items?
Oh, and where's your Sterak's Gage?
Also, BAHAHAHAHAHAHAH you fucking liar, she didn't tank you while she was the fucking villain.
you can kick and scream, it doesnt change the fact that garen is supposed to be a great duellist aswell. if you dont think so doesnt matter.
she did have the villain mark. like i said, she never fell below 60% health to make the mark relevant.
she shouldnt be able to stat check him when he makes it past her self peel. there is no reason an adc is that strong lategame that they can facetank a champion whos only strength is duelling in melee.
especially not when she has so much else going for her. i didnt die to a fully channeled mf ult, or even or a kog maw who doesnt have a choice but sit in place when auto attacking. i died there to a vaynes right mouse button, who didnt even attempt to move even though her entire kit is full of self peel and mobility. it shouldnt have happened.
vanyes 1v1 potential comes from the mobility tools, and her outplay potential in her kit. her w alone shouldnt be able to counter a garen.
AlwaysByMySide1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=00050000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-22T07:06:51.692+0000)
you can kick and scream, it doesnt change the fact that garen is supposed to be a great duellist aswell. if you dont think so doesnt matter.
she did have the villain mark, and she shouldnt be able to stat check him when he makes it past her self peel. there is no reason an adc is that strong lategame that they can facetank a champion whos only strength is duelling in melee.
especially not when she has so much else going for her. i didnt die to a fully channeled mf ult, or even or a kog maw who doesnt have a choice but sit in place when auto attacking. i died there to a vayne who didnt even attempt to move even though her entire kit is full of self peel and mobility. it shouldnt have happened.
Garen is a pretty good duelist. A great one? No. Without being the Villain Jax, Master Yi, Trundle, Tryndamere (Tryndamere can butt stomp Garen even if he's the Villain), Darius, Yasuo (I'm admittedly less sure about this one), Irelia, Aatrox, Fiora, Illaoi, Dr. Mundo, Mordekaiser, Nasus, Olaf, Shen, Shyvana, Warwick, Xin Zhao, and Yorick can beat Garen 1v1. Some can do so casually, like Jax, Yi, Trundle, Nasus, and Tryndamere. These champions have kits that can support builds better for dueling, or otherwise have kits better-optimized for it.
Vayne is one such champion. She has two very strong steroids, as well as great synergy with dueling items like BotRK and Phantom Dancer.
Why wouldn't she be able to beat you 1v1?
You're complaining that other champions need to be nerfed to compensate for Garen's inability to deal with them. Guess what?
The problem isn't Vayne's design. It's Garen's. Garen is a champion who is immobile without a whole lot of burst late game who has to build tanky, trying to duel the best 1v1 tank-buster in the game. Furthermore, Garen's complete lack of sustain in a fight severely limits his dueling potential. Sustain often wins duels if you can't just burst through Vayne's health. And a Garen with only a BC can't do that.
And nah, she didn't have the Villain mark. You're a liar. I've killed Vaynes who were fed that did try to kite me as Garen, purely because I burst through her health when she was the villain.
AlwaysByMySide4 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-19T11:34:02.779+0000)
man, i got completely outplayed by her right mouse button. just waiting to see her in the LCS. kid has a bright future.
you did read through the op right? she was sitting inside the spin just auto attacking.
to be fair, she did hover her mouse over me and pressed a button to hit me with the bork active.
if youre saying stacking lifesteal items is not a good idea due to executioners anyways, then there is no argument to not prevent them from stacking.
glad were on the same page.
Wait, it was a Vayne that sustained through your damage and killed you?
The ADC that shreds tanks and heavy bruisers 1v1 better than any other?
So you're saying that a late game hypercarry duelist managed to 1v1 you? Well gee, no fucking shit.
But go on. Keep on complaining about an ADC that isn't even strong right now. Go ahead and say that her early game is actually good again. I could use the laugh.
Critmaster Garen2 votes[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=00050000000000000001,timestamp=2016-06-19T23:41:04.411+0000)
Wait, it was a Vayne that sustained through your damage and killed you?
The ADC that shreds tanks and heavy bruisers 1v1 better than any other?
So you're saying that a late game hypercarry duelist managed to 1v1 you? Well gee, no fucking shit.
But go on. Keep on complaining about an ADC that isn't even strong right now. Go ahead and say that her early game is actually good again. I could use the laugh.
her being vayne is not an excuse lol.
she has the perfect kit to kite and self peel and she just dealt so much damage and had so much sustain from these items, that she didnt even need it. its disgusting.
whats the point of playing a melee bruiser when you cant even beat an adc in melee when said adc gets caught out?
she could literally sit in place and tank a bruiser. a bruiser who counterbuilt her to his best abilities. why is an adc, any adc at all allowed to tank a melee bruiser?
both champs are made to be lategame carries. one has the advantage of range and mobility, one has the advantage to be beefy in place of range and mobility.
in any scenario where the adc and brusier are even in gold, the melee bruiser should outtrade any adc in melee, when said adc doesnt even make use of his advantage.
if i as a bruiser use my entire kit and every resource available to me to stay in melee range of her and deal damage, she shouldnt be able to outtrade and win without putting any efford in herself and just sit in place and fucking auto attack.
she made a mistake. she got caught out, and she didnt get punished for it, "because its vayne". what the fuck is this argument?
AlwaysByMySide2 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=000500000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-06-20T05:21:22.904+0000)
her being vayne is not an excuse lol.
she has the perfect kit to kite and self peel and she just dealt so much damage and had so much sustain from these items, that she didnt even need it. its disgusting.
whats the point of playing a melee bruiser when you cant even beat an adc in melee when said adc gets caught out?
she could literally sit in place and tank a bruiser. a bruiser who counterbuilt her to his best abilities. why is an adc, any adc at all allowed to tank a melee bruiser?
both champs are made to be lategame carries. one has the advantage of range and mobility, one has the advantage to be beefy in place of range and mobility.
in any scenario where the adc and brusier are even in gold, the melee bruiser should outtrade any adc in melee, when said adc doesnt even make use of his advantage.
if i as a bruiser use my entire kit and every resource available to me to stay in melee range of her and deal damage, she shouldnt be able to outtrade and win without putting any efford in herself and just sit in place and fucking auto attack.
she made a mistake. she got caught out, and she didnt get punished for it, "because its vayne". what the fuck is this argument?
Tell you what? How's about you shut the fuck up and post the match history? Because until you do that there is no reason to continue this discussion.
Also, don't play immobile melee bruisers against Vayne if you want to be able to catch her out and kill her 1v1 late game. Play Master Yi if you want to be able to do that.
Also, bahahahahahahahahah Garen is made to be a late game carry bahahahahahahahahahah!
Garen's late game is better than it used to be, but it's not even near the same tier as Vayne's. Hell, it's not even as strong as Darius's, his fellow juggernaut. Nor is it as good as, say, Master Yi's.
No but really, shut up and post the fucking match history, or don't make threads about the games you've had. End of story.
And yes, get fucking stat-checked. Vayne had better stats than you, much like a Master Yi would have better stats than her. He's someone she actually has to make full use of her kit to beat 1v1. Garen? Lol.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=0005000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-06-20T08:25:27.779+0000)
Tell you what? How's about you shut the fuck up and post the match history?
you wanted the build to test it, i posted the build. so go test it.
im not giving up my main. i guess from now on its better to keep replays for shit like this. she did run fervor with this btw. and i ran 0/12/18 with grasp.
AlwaysByMySide1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=00050000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-20T08:27:38.576+0000)
you wanted the build to test it, i posted the build. so go test it.
im not giving up my main. i guess from now on its better to keep replays for shit like this. she did run fervor with this btw. and i ran 0/12/18 with grasp.
I frankly don't feel the need to anymore, I believe that Vayne 1v1'd you with three lifesteal items, I'm just baffled you thought dueling a six item Vayne as Garen was a good idea.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=000500000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-20T08:42:12.888+0000)
I frankly don't feel the need to anymore, I believe that Vayne 1v1'd you with three lifesteal items, I'm just baffled you thought dueling a six item Vayne as Garen was a good idea.
im confused. youre talking as if this is a choice.
i mean yea. cool. sure. i can just ignore a vayne, let her do her thing and see how this works out for our team. maybe ill focus on the support instead. great idea.
AlwaysByMySide1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=0005000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-20T08:49:21.145+0000)
im confused. youre talking as if this is a choice.
i mean yea. cool. sure. i cn just ignore a vayne, let her do her thing and see how this works out for our team.
Try to lock her down with multiple people.
Don't have a comp that can deal with Vayne late? Guess you should have had a better late game comp or won earlier then, huh?
Vayne is a late game hypercarry. If you could easily counter her late game... well, I guess she wouldn't be a late game hypercarry, huh?
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=00050000000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-20T08:51:16.210+0000)
Try to lock her down with multiple people.
Don't have a comp that can deal with Vayne late? Guess you should have had a better late game comp or won earlier then, huh?
Vayne is a late game hypercarry. If you could easily counter her late game... well, I guess she wouldn't be a late game hypercarry, huh?
so basically because the enemy team picked vayne, they should win the game because she managed to get to lategame, even when she compeltely fucks up and doesnt position next to her support, tank, or even kites a 6 item juggernaut whos running at her because shes sitting at a position where she doesnt have a ward in a blind spot.
in your opinion its ok for her to make a whole bunch of mistakes, and still come out on top, because the guy picked the right champion.
AlwaysByMySide1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=000500000000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-20T08:54:23.720+0000)
so basically because the enemy team picked vayne, they should win the game because she managed to get to lategame, even when she compeltely fucks up and doesnt position next to her support, tank, or even kites a juggernaut whos running at her because shes sitting at a position where she doesnt have a ward in a blind spot.
its ok, for her to make a whole bunch of mistakes and still come out on top, because he picked the right chsmpion.
Yes, much like how Pantheon pretty much instantly wins lane the moment he is picked to compensate for falling off the face of the earth late game.
Also, did she fuck up? Sounds to me like she kicked your ass.
Once again, get stat-checked. The same thing would happen if you tried to 1v1 a six item Tryndamere.
Vayne's DPS was considerably higher than yours, and your own DPS couldn't get through her health or lifesteal. What about this is hard to get? Of all ADCs Vayne is probably the least affected by Thornmail. Stacking defenses is meant to be less effective against her.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=0005000000000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-20T08:58:29.697+0000)
Yes, much like how Pantheon pretty much instantly wins lane the moment he is picked to compensate for falling off the face of the earth late game.
Also, did she fuck up? Sounds to me like she kicked your ass.
Once again, get stat-checked. The same thing would happen if you tried to 1v1 a six item Tryndamere.
Vayne's DPS was considerably higher than yours, and your own DPS couldn't get through her health or lifesteal. What about this is hard to get? Of all ADCs Vayne is probably the least affected by Thornmail. Stacking defenses is meant to be less effective against her.
well, then i guess we never had to change anything about poppy after all. i mean it was your fault if she got to level 16 with 3 items, then ulted your support and obliterted your backline under your turret every fight without anything anyone could do.
its just a lategame champion.
AlwaysByMySide1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=00050000000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-20T09:31:41.143+0000)
well, then i guess we never had to change anything about poppy after all. i mean it was your fault if she got to level 16 with 3 items, then ulted your support and obliterted your backline under your turret every fight without anything anyone could do.
its just a lategame champion.
Only Vayne has counterplay, just not in a 1v1 when Garen is playing against her (which, I will be perfectly fucking blunt, is more Garen's fault than hers, his kit is extremely simple and binary with little outplay potential). Master Yi has no counterplay 1v1 either for most champions. You sure as shit wouldn't have outplayed him. He'd have done the same thing, ult and right click you to death. He might have to press E (which is only far, Vayne was using her W).
Old Poppy had no counterplay.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=00050000000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-06-20T09:56:41.027+0000)
his kit is extremely simple and binary with little outplay potential.
but this wasnt an issue of outplay potential. it was one of raw dps coupled with too many defensive stats.
why does she even have all this outplay potential when she can win fights just by stat checking?
whats the point of other lategame carries like twitch and kog maw with weak early games, who bring the same tank shredding abilities without her mobility or self peel and outplay potential?
youre saying this is an issue of garen. maybe garen is too weak. actually judging by his stats, hes certainly too weak.
but vaynes lategame is almost guaranteed too strong. her slightly sub par early game that usually makes her second pick, when the game environment doesnt change and makes her straight up first pick top tier adc, isnt an excuse for her power spike.
there are many other champions in this game with an early game on her level who dont end up close to her lategame.
imo riot just plain overdid it with the amount of defense they tacked onto ad carry builds. the massive amount of lifesteal and items like phantom dancers reducing damage by a whooping 12% combined just makes no sense.
theyre not supposed to be ranged bruisers. being squishy is pretty much their only weakness, and they watered this weakness down to the point where you have extreme cases like vayne drain tanking bruisers in melee without even the need to kite or outplay.
dont even get me started on graves.
AlwaysByMySide1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=00050000000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000002,timestamp=2016-06-20T10:14:13.767+0000)
but this wasnt an issue of outplay potential. it was one of raw dps coupled with too many defensive stats.
why does she even have all this outplay potential when she can win fights just by stat checking?
Because she can't stat check champions like Tryndamere or Yi. Yi also has outplay potential by the way.
whats the point of other lategame carries like twitch and kog maw with weak early games, who bring the same tank shredding abilities without her mobility or self peel and outplay potential?
Hahahahah are you serious?
First of all, neither have an early game as weak as Vayne's, in particular Kog, who isn't really a hypercarry anymore.
Second of all, Twitch is better late game than Vayne.
Vayne scales better as a duelist, and that's it. Twitch will shred your whole fucking team and has more range than Vayne could dream of having. This makes him better in team fights, which late game revolves around. Kog'maw also has much greater range and AOE power in team fights than Vayne.
youre saying this is an issue of garen. maybe garen is too weak. actually judging by his stats, hes certainly too weak.
but vaynes lategame is almost guaranteed too strong. her slightly sub par early game that usually makes her second pick, when the game environment doesnt change and makes her straight up first pick top tier adc, isnt an excuse for her power spike.
Once again, her late game isn't the best of all ADCs. She's just the best duelist. These are not the same thing.
there are many other champions in this game with an early game on her level who dont end up close to her lategame.
I'd like to see you name some.
imo riot just plain overdid it with the amount of defense they tacked onto ad carry builds. the massive amount of lifesteal and items like phantom dancers reducing damage by a whooping 12% combined just makes no sense.
Yet ADCs as a whole are in a fine place. The build in your OP pretty much only works on Vayne and Kalista. No other carry will do near the damage of a more standard build.
theyre not supposed to be ranged bruisers. being squishy is pretty much their only weakness, and they watered it down to the point where you have extreme cases like vayne drain tanking bruisers in melee without even the need to kite or outplay.
Yi can build glass cannon and do the same thing more easily.
Vayne can drain tank bruisers because she stat-checks them in a 1v1. In a team fight she is still prone to being locked down and blown up if she mispositions. Sorry you tried to duel Vayne without being a duelist or a high burst assassin like Rengar (who would have popped that Vayne like a pimple).
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=0005000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-06-20T08:25:27.779+0000)
And yes, get fucking stat-checked.
yes. so maybe this is an issue and should be fixed. give me a solid reason to just accept it.
if we compared my situation to your example, then it would be as if the yi ulted, and ran up to her without ever using alpha strike and killed her with auto attacks, while they vayne used her full kit to juke him with stealth and lock him down with wall stuns and still lost.
id really like to see that happening. it wont. shed blow him the fuck up before the stun runs out.
the entire point of my rant is, that she could win despite getting outplayed and not actually utilizing her kit.
AlwaysByMySide1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=00050000000000000001000000000001,timestamp=2016-06-20T08:35:52.472+0000)
yes. so maybe this is an issue and shoudl be fixed. there is no reason to just accept it.
if we compared my situation to your example, then it would be as if the yi ulted, and ran up to her without ever using alpha strike and killed her with auto attacks, while they vayne used her full kit to juke him with stealth and lock him down with wall stuns and still lost.
id really like to see that happening. it wont.
the entire point of my rant is, that she could do this despite getting outplayed and not actually utilizing her kit.
But I guaran-fucking-tee you that a Yi can do that to almost every other ADC (like a Jinx, Kog, Miss Fortune, or Twitch). He's not likely to do that to Vayne because she is also a late game hypercarry duelist. As it stands, he still beats her 1v1 if he alpha strikes the condemn.
A Tryndamere could have also right clicked your champion and stat-checked you to death, and probably wouldn't have needed to use his ult.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=000500000000000000010000000000010000,timestamp=2016-06-20T08:41:24.290+0000)
But I guaran-fucking-tee you that a Yi can do that to almost every other ADC (like a Jinx, Kog, Miss Fortune, or Twitch). He's not likely to do that to Vayne because she is also a late game hypercarry duelist. As it stands, he still beats her 1v1 if he alpha strikes the condemn.
A Tryndamere could have also right clicked your champion and stat-checked you to death, and probably wouldn't have needed to use his ult.
id really like you see you do that lol. you just run straight at a jinx, get locked up by her traps and die. mf just ults your face off before youre in melee range. most adc still have some way of dealing with at least something like this.
AlwaysByMySide1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=0005000000000000000100000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-06-20T08:44:52.162+0000)
id really like you see you do that lol. you just run straight at a jinx, get locked up by her traps and die. mf just ults your face off before youre in melee range. most adc still have some way of dealing with at least something like this.
What, the traps with a near second arming time that's a skill shot being shot at the champ with one of the fastest movement speeds in the game? I think I'll manage.
It's a shame I face-tanked MF's ult with my deadman's, sterak's, and black cleaver, all of which are easily put in a Yi jungle build. Or, you know, walked out of it. It's not hard in a 1v1, especially for an ulting Yi.
SaltyKracka3 votesBecause stacking lifesteal is generally a shit build and does fuck all deeps.
Critmaster Garen2 votesBecause stacking lifesteal is generally a shit build and does fuck all deeps.
none of the lifesteal items is lacking in raw damage. what are you talking about?
SaltyKracka2 votesThey don't lack in AD, maybe. Bork certainly lacks in AD, and the other two don't have any of the offensive multipliers (crit, attack speed, pen) and are pretty shit rush items.
Looking through the topic further, you were up against a six item Vayne and...she managed to sustain some during your E with two lifesteal items and a mastery that's shit in lane and generally pretty shit on her anyways in order to avoid being executed? I mean, she had I.E., Phantom Dancer and was a 6-item Vayne. She was absolutely going to melt through you if you couldn't burst her in one combo, and she brought a mastery that helped her with that.
Faie2 votesOk so it seems you were a full build Garen vs a full build Vayne.
First of all, it doesn't matter who was ahead. You were both at full build, there is no 'ahead' at that point. Second of all, IT WAS A VAYNE. A late game vayne. The singular champion in the game designed to be able to kite immobile bruisers, shred tanks, and be a late game hyper carry? You were doomed at that point. There is nothing you can build to be able to 1v1 a vayne at that point as Garen. Garen has his strong points in a game, and Vayne has her weak points, but at 6 items, Vayne is at her utmost strongest and Garen is at his weakest.
Finally, you were playing Garen, who might be the easiest target for Vayne to kill late game. You have ZERO ability to kill her at all, unless you go full AD or something and one shot her. Not even thornmail can save you from 500+ damage auto attacks and massive true damage.
IcyPepper2 votesWhile introducing a counter would be nice instead of just relying on thornmail, lifesteal is the defensive stat for ADC's. It keeps their total health pool low, but makes them last longer in a sustained fight (where they're supposed to shine) if they're doing their job while not hampering an assassin's ability to 100-0 them.
ive had lategame adc literally facetanking my spin
Lategame. ADC. And you had 300 armor, so I don't think you were playing an assassin.
That's kind of the situation where ADC's shine...
can we turn at least some of them into unique passives to prevent these extreme cases where people just stack all of them?
Like how you built thornmail and stacked armor? Come on dude, every class is allowed its defensive itemization. The problem isn't making the passives unique, it's introducing a proper counter to lifesteal.
Critmaster Garen1 votesWhile introducing a counter would be nice instead of just relying on thornmail, lifesteal is the defensive stat for ADC's. It keeps their total health pool low, but makes them last longer in a sustained fight (where they're supposed to shine) if they're doing their job while not hampering an assassin's ability to 100-0 them.
Lategame. ADC. And you had 300 armor, so I don't think you were playing an assassin.
That's kind of the situation where ADC's shine...
Like how you built thornmail and stacked armor? Come on dude, every class is allowed its defensive itemization. The problem isn't making the passives unique, it's introducing a proper counter to lifesteal.
if every class is allwed their defensive itemization. why is lifesteal more effective than armor and health to the point that adc can just fight brusiers in melee?
just because they are allowed to have some sort of defense is not an argument for it being too strong.
yes, i stacked armor and thornmail and evidently it didnt do shit.
no, i didnt play an assassin. i played fucking garen. the champion who has difficulties getting into peoples faces but is made to win fights when he gets there. the champion that is made to shut down snowballing champions with the villain mark like that vayne. what kind of a joke is this, when his only strength is useless in a straight up melee fight against an adc? youre expending every resource and manage to outmaneuver an opponent with more outplay potential, to get beaten by right clicks and a bork active.
Atanchan1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ioTAnswi,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2016-06-20T06:17:09.396+0000)
if every class is allwed their defensive itemization. why is lifesteal more effective than armor and health to the point that adc can just fight brusiers in melee?
Because armor scales with health, another defensive stat, while lifesteal scales with AD, attack speed, physical on-hit damage, armor penetration, and critical strike, which are not only far more scaling factors, but all offensive. Meaning, not only does meaningful lifesteal keep you alive, but the fact that you're actually healing a meaningful amount of lifesteal means you're dealing meaningful amounts of damage. Which means you're killing shit extremely well.
Which means you don't manfight someone who's healing a significant amount from lifesteal.
ON THE FLIPSIDE lifesteal is the worst defensive stat in terms of dealing with burst, greater range, or CC. Which is to say, it does literally nothing against burst, greater range, or CC, because the user of lifesteal can't get a chance to hit stuff, which means they aren't healing anything. Suddenly the main defensive stat of the ADC means nothing, and considering how squishies ADCs are naturally ...
Armor doesn't have that issue. You could be AFK in the middle of the lane and armor will still protect you just as much as it would while you're manfighting someone. So it's hard to say lifesteal is superior to armor in defensive terms, because it literally only does anything if you make offensive actions - which means if you can't, you've sunk gold into a stat that does nothing for you.
BloodyTompon1 votesI feel like Warlords is the main culprit. It allows adcs to not buy into sustain early and then when they do later on, the sustain is too high.
Critmaster Garen3 votesI feel like Warlords is the main culprit. It allows adcs to not buy into sustain early and then when they do later on, the sustain is too high.
its only part of the problem. its too easy to stack obscene amounts of lifesteal with items alone right now.
i dont see a reason not to make them unique passives on maybe even all of the items, to prevent stacking.
individually these items arent that problrmatic except for bork and mercurial for other reasons. but when people start to stack them its disgusting.
BloodyTompon2 votesThat feels very heavy handed. Life steal item stacking means they sacrifice damage (they still get damage, but not optimal damage because they're lacking in as many multipliers). It's not crowding out alternative builds and it's very situational.
Critmaster Garen1 votesThat feels very heavy handed. Life steal item stacking means they sacrifice damage (they still get damage, but not optimal damage because they're lacking in as many multipliers). It's not crowding out alternative builds and it's very situational.
theyre sacrificing significant less with the damage, than theyre gaining from the sustain.
i think part of the problem was the 12% damage reduction on phantom dancers coupled with the 30% lifesteal from those 2 items, and what else she had from masteries.
all i want right now is to prevent stacked case scenarios where ranged carries are able to grab 2 or 3 lifesteal items and turn into drain tanks.
a global 20% to 25% lifesteal cap like the cdr cap might do that and still leave them with situational item choices.
BloodyTompon1 votesThey're spec-ing into a sup optimal build in terms of damage. It's still a trade off of damage vs. survivability
Around999People1 votesJust chiming in.
You went up against someone who hard counters you and is built from the ground up to beat tanks, espeacially tanks with health. And you are a tank with tons of health. Of course you'd die without her kit being used. She's made to eat champs like you.
If you went as a different champ who's made to kill people you'd have won. Like zed, Trynd, yi, fizz, etc.
Because right now you're literally upset about there existing a hard counter for you.
Critmaster Garen1 votesJust chiming in.
You went up against someone who hard counters you
i also built against her. i built what i could. randuins to slow her attack speed, armor with thornmail to be able to reduce her lifesteal.
i also had to build some health to deal with the rest of her team.
vayne counters garen because of the combination of her w in combination with mobility, stealth and knockback to be able to kite him.
her auto attacks alone should not be enough to beat him in melee. there needs to be a way for melee bruisers to even outplay a vanyne. otherwise whats the point?
i mean adc and mage mains always complain that they want to be able to outplay assassins. this is the reverse situation. i dont think vayne should be able to beat melee bruisers no matter the circumstances.
Around999People1 votesBut that's wrong. It's a cha,pion that was made to beat you. you can go as a bruiser and stand a solid chance against many other ADC's. But I think it's fair that a champion that was made to beat you, well, did it.
It's weird how she just stood there, but not game breaking since you're not supposed to be able to 1v1 her in the first place.
Critmaster Garen1 votesBut that's wrong. It's a cha,pion that was made to beat you. you can go as a bruiser and stand a solid chance against many other ADC's. But I think it's fair that a champion that was made to beat you, well, did it.
It's weird how she just stood there, but not game breaking since you're not supposed to be able to 1v1 her in the first place.
i dont think a champion who is made to beat you even when he makes mistakes or doesnt even use his kit is fair design.
would you find it fair if a champion like zed would use not a single ability agaisnt you except for his ult, and then kill you just by auto attacking, on an adc or on a mage? and you wouldnt be allowed to itemize against him either.
he could all in you, miss every single ability including his e and q, and then kill you anyways, while you landed everything on him. would that be fair?
just because a champion counters another champion doesnt mean he should have more than an advantage. it shouldnt guarantee him winning against you in every possible scenario. because then it would mean you didnt get outplayed, you just got outpicked.
vayne counters bruisers due to her mobility, self peel and outplay potential alone. she shouldnt on top of everything else be able to just stat check them and win a damage race in melee.
Around999People1 votesso let's assume 1 ability gets used (Vayne had her W)
Zed Vs Azir: zed wins 99% of the time because he hard counters Azir.
Aatrox Vs Garen: Aarrox stomps as badly as the Vayne did.
Darius Vs Trynd: Dar would win most if not all exchanges with only has Q.
Master Yi Vs Jinx: Yi stomps
I could go on, but you get the idea. The game is balanced in the regard that you can counter anything, but not necessarily with every champ. trynd is a bruiser an he can beat a Vayne silly. Why? Because hes made to stay on champs that would otherwise kill him.
Critmaster Garen1 votesso let's assume 1 ability gets used (Vayne had her W)
Zed Vs Azir: zed wins 99% of the time because he hard counters Azir.
Aatrox Vs Garen: Aarrox stomps as badly as the Vayne did.
Darius Vs Trynd: Dar would win most if not all exchanges with only has Q.
Master Yi Vs Jinx: Yi stomps
I could go on, but you get the idea. The game is balanced in the regard that you can counter anything, but not necessarily with every champ. trynd is a bruiser an he can beat a Vayne silly. Why? Because hes made to stay on champs that would otherwise kill him.
zed wins vs. azir only by the use of his whole kit. if azir was allowed to use all of his abilities and zed then just ulted and auto attacked with the ad boost on his w, zed would get stomped.
aatrox v. garen, maybe.
darius vs. tryn. there is no way in hell a 6 item darius wins vs 6 item tryn just by auto attacking, or using his q. darius base auto attack speed is low. darius using his q wouldnt even compare to the situation with vayne. it would be more like darius just having 5 points in his e for the passive armor pen.
yi vs. jinx. yi dies when jinx lands her traps on him. if yi was only allowed to use his e, ult and auto attacks. while he gets snared, jinx could damage race him.
if these champions would all use their whole kits, then things would look different. but were assuming here, that theyre not even using more than a passive ability.
Around999People1 votesI might have over stated the Zed one lol
Aarrox, I use him specifically to beat Garen. My w's heal and damage are insane with my build. Full health after 1-2 hits.
Dar, eh, I used to be a tryn main ad Dar's Q talkes a good 1/3 of my hp and heals him a good chunk of the dmg I did. Main reason I stopped maiming top and he slams his Q faster than I can spin rofl (impressive since I can get my e back in less than half the normal time)
Have you ever placed traps like that as Jinx? I main her and its nearly impossible unless you're blocking a small entrance where your traps cover all of it. In lane, a few steps to the side and he's on her, or better yet, alpha since ya know, it's about the same distance as he max trap placement