Will we at least see another high Ap/CDR item to replace DFG? (without the active ofc)

Shinjusuke··3 votes·675 views

Seeing as whether your mage champion is hurt "too much" by DFG's removal seems to be an arbitrary choice by Riot alone, it'd be nice to get another high-ap/cdr item not tied to mana regen.

Obviously DFG was a ridiculously problematic item, but because of it's active. It'd be nice to get a 100+ AP item with CDR on it that isn't tied to mana, since the only one there was just got nixed.

8 Comments

Darth Pixy Misa1 votes

The simplest solution I can see for this is for Riot to buff Twin Shadows by 30 ap and raise the cost by 300

Shinjusuke1 votes

I like it, but the reason they wouldn't do that is that they view Twin Shadows as an adamantly "support" item as far as I know. Plus, that active is stupid good, and it would possibly cause the item to be too good.

Still, I'd love to see Twin Shadow fill DFG's role as that high-AP-and-some-CDR item :(

ProfDrDeath1 votes

The obvious problem is too develop an item that is interesting and has a niche beyond being a pure stat-stick. This requires:

  • Finding a fitting active or passive effect that is not too strong, but also not totally negilible
  • Determining on which type of champion this item should be particularily strong / with whom it should synergize
  • Testing the theoretical framework vs its actual in-game effects

Developing a new item isn't as simple as thinking of it, coding it and putting it in the game. You have to make sure that said item is working in its intended function, that it doesn't break existing champions and that doesn't tilt the balance of classes with respect to each other. And hence, I don't really expect said new item to be introduced in 5.3. Hell, maybe not even in 5.4.

Shinjusuke1 votes

Oh no, I wasn't expecting it anytime soon (To be honest, I was never really sure why they didn't just give DFG a new active), but there is a "hole" left by DFG as far as optimizing a mage's build.

The suggestion of buffing Twin Shadows seemed like a reasonable one, albeit it's status of "Support-only" in Riot's eyes seemingly makes such a change unlikely.

Were it not a hidden part of the game, I'd think dropping cooldowns would be an intersting active effect on such an item. However, since you can't see enemy cooldowns and it would open up abuse cases similar to DFG's original active, this is probably equally unlikely.

Anyone got opinions on an active that drops ultimate cooldowns by 10 seconds or so?

ProfDrDeath1 votes

I don't like messing with cooldowns, to be honest.

After playing a lot, you usually get a feeling for how long certain champions have between ult uses, allowing you to capitalize on that. An item which CAN lower cooldowns messes with that (in contrast to static CdR, which you can calculate for - that just makes the window smaller), as the window for capitalization becomes blurred - you simply don't know whether your enemy has its ult cooldown up or not.

Basically, such an item turn everyone into Zilean.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

The first question is, who should this hypothetical 120 AP +10% CdR - item be strong on? Assassins, mana-users, waveclear mages, immobile burst mages, tanky APs (probably not), glass cannons...

We currently have 3 big-ticket AP items in the game: item 3089, item 3157 and item 3040 .

Of those three, Deathcap is the quintessential stat stick - gives 120 AP and then MORE AP. Zhonya's possesses some defensive stats (50 Armor) and a unique defensive/utility active that allows you to survive while waiting for cooldowns or an over-time effect like Slicing Maelstrom or Soul Shackles, but that has the downside keeping you in this state for its duration, for the better or worse. Seraph's gives you a lot of mana to work with, as well as an anti-burst defensive based on your own mana.

So, we have pure offensive stats once and two times some kind of defensive utility. What if the new item had some offensive utility? Meaning, a slow (because harder CC on an item is a no-go). A shortish, possibly targeted slowing effect that enables you to keep enemies in range of your spells for longer or allows for easier pursuit, while not retaining DFG's problem of facilitating faster 100->0 no counterplay burst.

However, we can't just use Twin Shadow's for that - that item's active is more general utility, as it not only slows targets, but, more importantly, also chases them out and reveals them on their own accord. Our item's purpose would need to be more limited and to the point, as its power budget needs to be split between the stats and the active. Also, Twin Shadows features movement speed, too - which is one of, if not the most, valuable stat in the game (why else would we always dedicate a whole item slot for an MS-focused item?).

Shinjusuke1 votes

A lot of valid points in here, I heavily agree Movement Speed is (probably) the best stat in the game.

The reason I think the void left by DFG is such an important one is that it was one of the only items providing a damage stat + CDR, which, if you view CDR as the only "multiplier" stat for magic caster's damage (which it is) versus the Crit and Attackspeed stats for physical damage dealers, having an offensive magic item with CDR is pretty crucial. Especially when you consider there's an item like Infinity Edge (which I'd compare more closely to Rabacap, but..), and items like Phantom Dancer (with not only 2 "multiplier" stats but a move speed bonus as well), but the only stat mages get is CDR, and in Rabacap's passive.

Any kind of noticeably strong CC is just going to be outright too strong probably, as the item would be primarily built on the character class that usually already has a lot of CC built into their kits. "Lockdown" is a bad design, as it's essentially the same as "instant-death" except a bit slower.

However, if there were room for player skill to play a part, I would think options would be more open. DFG's super ridiculous active was too favorable, but what about a "missing health physical damage" skillshot? Skillshots have a lot of "levers" as Riot calls them for balance adjustment, and a large part of DFG's ridiculous power (IMO) was it's reliability. Alternatively, a skillshot that's a heavy slow (50+%) and a grievous wounds effect might be a possibility. In both cases I'm considering the item's active to have a relatively slow missle speed, but that could change as well to influence item power.

In any case, I agree it'd have to be an "offensive utility" item, it'd just be a project of finding what would work without encroaching too close to the DFG-zone. Regardless, I think the outright removal of the only non-mana-tied AP/cdr item without a replacement is a bad move, especially considering the champions getting compensation for such removal is purely based on Riot's opinion (and I frankly don't trust Riot's tradition of... "preferences"... when it comes to compensating champions).

Darth Pixy Misa1 votes

The ghosts active is much cooler than the DFG active, it is a shame that DFG overshadowed Twin Shadows for so long.

Do you think Twin Shadows at 110ap, 10%CDR, and the ghost active costing 2800 is too good?

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