Wait, aren't skirmishers and divers basically just the same thing?

deadlychuck··8 votes·1,647 views

Even just looking at riot's own descriptions (check below) of these sub-classes, it just sounds like one is saying "fighter/assassins" and the other is saying "assassin/fighters".

Then when you combine the two specified designs of the of fighers and slayers, you get **Fighters **:- durable, damage focused, look to be in the thick of combat **Slayers **:- _fragile, agile, 'bursty' _

At which point it's got me scratching my head, because wouldn't combining durability, sustained damage, burst damage, and agile movements, basically just include the counters to every other class in the game?

Mages : countered by agile movements Tanks : countered by sustained damage Marksmen : countered by burst damage Controllers : countered by durable enemies

Well that is, excluding themselves, which might have a different distribution of these same traits which gives them an advantage over other divers & skirmishers.

Obviously you have a lot more factors which play into a champion being "broken", but don't some of these faces look oddly... familiar?

  • "Divers" Vi XinZhao Nocturne Pantheon JarvanIV MonkeyKing Warwick Renekton Elise Hecarim LeeSin Irelia Aatrox Diana
  • "Skirmishers" Fiora Riven Yasuo Tryndamere MasterYi Jax Ekko

Divers Divers are the more mobile portion of the Fighter class. Divers excel at singling out high-priority targets to blitz toward, immediately forcing those targets (and their teammates) to deal with the diver’s presence. Divers are not as durable as the tanks or juggernauts of the world, but Divers can take their fair share of punishment while bringing enough damage to be a real kill threat if left unchecked.

Skirmishers Unlike Assassins, Skirmishers aim to shred through any nearby enemy that approaches. Because Skirmishers lack high-end burst damage or reliable ways of closing in on high-priority targets, they are instead armed with situationally powerful defensive tools to survive in the fray, along with extreme sustained damage to cut down even the most durable targets.

25 Comments

Critmaster Garen3 votes

divers do exactly what it sounds like. theyre mobile, but made to hard engage into the enemy team (well, or follow up a tanks engage) and dive into the enemy backline.

their mobility however is purely offensive. like Vi for example, who would be the poster child for a diver. her q and ult are there to break through the enemy frontline, get into the back and stick onto her target.

skirmishers on the other hand are generally more fragile and more unrestricted in their mobility Riven can use her spells as engage or as escapes, depending on the situation. she doesnt need a direct target to aim at to use her mobility.

Jax does need a target for leap strike, but he can use it either as escape or engage.

the difference between divers and skirmishers is, that skirmishers can more easily dance in and out of combat, while divers are just brute force back line breakers.

hence why i dont understand that some people consider Kled to be a skirmisher. it doesnt fit tbh. his entire kit is about hard engaging onto the enemy and to stick to him. and he brings extra raw defense to be able to survive the fight.

as far as defense on skirmishers and divers goes, its a matter of short windowed situational abilities that allow to negate a lot of damage. some of them require near perfect timing to block specific abilities.

Fiora riposte Yasuo wind wall Riven shield on her e Jax counter strike

as opposed to higher defensive base stats and defense steroids that require slightly less situational awareness

JarvanIV shield best to activate immediately when many enemies are around Vi shield is automatically active just by hitting her opponents with other abilities. it doesnt require much thought. MonkeyKing passive resistance steroid the more enemies nearby Irelia passive tenacity the more enemies nearby Kled high frontloaded bonus health

Anonagon3 votes

There is a lot that separates Divers and Skirmishers:

  • Power and uptime of mobility spells - Diver mobility is generally long range, long cooldown, often targeted and/or providing CC (See: Camille E, J4 EQ). Skirmishers have low distance, low cooldown mobility that is better for maneuvering around fights and sticking to targets than getting to priority backline targets (See: Fiora Q, Yasuo E).
  • Defensive Abilities - While Divers often have significant defensive abilities, they aren't nearly as gamechanging as Riposte or Wind Wall. A Skirmisher is meant to have high cooldown, extremely impactful defensive tools that allow them to get away with building much squishier than a Diver does.
  • Damage Output - Skirmishers have generally high damage output, especially sustained damage, and generally do a larger portion of their damage through just autoattacks. Skirmishers generally scale harder with offensive stats than Divers. Divers are more likely to deal most of their damage in upfront burst, and more likely to have more AoE collateral damage.

Part of the reason that the lines between these two subclasses can be blurred a lot is because a large portion of the champions in these classes are old and badly designed.

Its very hard to see the difference between the older Skirmishers (Tryndamere MasterYi Jax ) and some of the older Divers (XinZhao Irelia Nocturne ), because the only distinction between these groups is the powerful windowed defensive abilities of the old Skirmishers. The differences in mobility tools, which I personally consider to be the most important thing distinguishing these classes, had yet to be established.

However, when you begin to compare more modern Skirmishers (Fiora Yasuo Riven) to the modern Divers (Warwick Camille Vi) the other differences become obvious.

Another thing that makes these classes confusing is that there's a lot of ability for champions of these classes (and from the Assassins) to bridge the gaps depending on how they are tuned, and a lot of hybrids:

Ekko played like a Skirmisher with a Trinity Force / Fervor build when the list came out, but is now back to being a normal assassin with a full AP build. (Very similar stuff happening to Fizz right now) Kled is a Skirmisher in-kit but plays like a Diver because his optimal build is so tanky. Gangplank is a Skirmisher/Burst Mage hybrid Jayce and Graves are Skirmishers whose "powerful defensive ability" is being ranged when they want to be. etc.

So yeah, Skirmishers and Divers are different, and they will feel progressively more different as new champions in both classes are released, old ones are updated, and existing ones are better balanced.

HaIlMonitor2 votes

I love how the Skirmishers all are just as mobile, and in some ways more so then the Divers (excluding lee).

deadlychuck2 votes

I'd also say that wu (with Q and R speed) and ww after his rework and irelia with her Q and diana with her R resets are generally just as mobile as many skirmishers, if not more mobile than some.

Or what combination of disruptor, enchater, skirmisher, and diver, is rakan with his 3 dashes, shielding, healing, and ult? Or his he just a disruptor/enchater/skirmisher/diver?

crippler381 votes

I'd put Rakan as the lee sin of the enchanters.

He has 3 dashes, but 2 of them are conditional, and all of his support stuff requires him to be close to either the enemy for a short period of time or an ally for a short period of time.

He also is discouraged from going tanky because all of his things scale highly off of AP, his shields and his heal for example have pretty high scalings.

Although the only weakness on him I can seem to find is that if you're fast you can stop all of his cc in its tracks (requires pretty good reaction time unless he flashes but we can't really count flash since that's amazing on anyone with cc) and that if he's trying to shield or heal someone you can get a 2 for 1 special with your aoe cc.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

He also can't shield himself.

crippler381 votes

Yes but he also has a malphite like shield.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

He does, which is nice, but personally I prefer on-demand shielding to passive shields.

Might be why I suck ass with Malphite.

crippler381 votes

I find it easier to think of it as extra hp that happens to scale with ap and heal on a cooldown (a cooldown that gets reduced by hitting things)

EDIT: this makes me want to try on hit rakan.

Ralanr1 votes

That's the point imo.

fuffychan2 votes

This whole entire naming thing is retarded.

We have tanks, bruisers, ADCs, mages, and supports. (and junglers)

The end.

NineTailedMystic8 votes

So Lux and Ahri are just Mages even though they play very different? Or Poppy and Malphite are just Tanks even thought they play very different?

Ralanr1 votes

Technically we don't have junglers. We just have fighters/assassins/tanks in the jungle.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Technically we don't have junglers. We just have fighters/assassins/tanks in the jungle.

fghters, assassins, marksmen, tanks, mages and supports enchanters :)

jungle is probably the most diverse role overall.

Spoofghoul1 votes

you are confusing roles and classes m8

speaking of classes, maybe take a few on the subject before commenting?

paisy2 votes

A Fiora or Yi jumping the backline isn't has good has a Jarvan or Wukong jumping it

ScissorsNstuff1 votes

divers are better for teamfights skirmishers are better for 1v1

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

divers are better for teamfights skirmishers are better for 1v1

To draw that out a bit. You could probably describe them by their builds.

Divers are pretty much going to be building 2 damage items, then tank. While Skirmisher are practically going in Full DPS.

Skirmishers are historically refereed to as "Melee ADCs," They have the DPS to shred a tank, but they are just as vulnerable to burst. (perhaps more mobile) While Diver's their damage falls off later on because they build tanky. (But can always target the glass cannon, as they don't build defensive) But have the defenses to survive burst combos.

Hige1 votes

Skirmishers can work as Divers but not the other way around

The main idea behind a Diver is to jump the front line and then tank from there while skirmishers are supposed to basically focus what's closer to them

Skirmishers are basically melee adcs, the likes of Fiora, Yi, and Yasuo come to mind and as you can see, they all CAN jump front lines and work as a diver, the difference is that they don't have a diving skill and once they blow their gap closer they are left with only damage, if they don't kill everything they'll most likely die

Divers on the other hand have some sort of long range diving skill + CC, Malphite, Zac and Vi are Divers, sadly though, Divers are currently broken and they deal way too much damage

There are also Skimirsher/Divers and the opposite, Olaf is a Skirmisher/Diver, he tanks with lifesteal and he can ignore everyone while charging forward while Nocturne is a Diver/Skirmisher, he can dive from long range but he can't really tank much

Sohleks1 votes

Most of those skirmishes you have there except maybe Ekko are sustained damage melee carries that can dps a tank down in a not very long amount of time with most of their health remaining. Those skirmishers are less target choosing and care more about dps and living than target selection and could potentially sweep your whole team if not checked.

I'd say the divers are more about killing and or controlling high value targets because their dps under the face of an ADC isn't game changing. I'd say some of those divers you have there could have that damage there like Vi or Diana or Aatrox or Nocturne but they don't have the powerful defensive or repositioning tools as most of the skirmishers and instead will rely more on stat checking if attacked.

YoungSirJ0ey1 votes

I mean, mostly. The primary difference between divers and skirmishers is that divers tend to have more frontloaded damage, while skirmishers' damage is more sustained. The secondary difference is that skirmishers almost always have a defensive tool, while divers don't. Basically, divers are tanky assassins with no means of escape, while skirmishers are basically just melee ADCs who splitpush way too much, and both of them get blown up in teamfights. And yes, a lot of those faces are familiar, but that's because basically every champion in League has been overpowered at some point.

Alex h87211 votes

I would say the biggest differences are divers are slightly tankier, and have a somewhat "less selfish" kit, Ex, Vi ult-lockdown, Xin ult-aoe displacement (insec potential), pantheon ult-mobility to help team, damage/slow, jarvan ult- damage/lockdown, wukong ult- damage/CC,

Where as skirmishers: Riven ult- damage steriod + execute, yas ult, damage Armorpen for yas, trynd ult> get out of jail free for trynd, ekko ult-same as trynd, yi ult> offensive steroids, jax ult>sustained damage passive defense steroid active.

I would say divers have more "disruptive" tools so the rest of your team can freely deal damage, where skirmishers have more selfish tools which allow them to stay in the fight longer/deal more damage themselves.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

There is a lot of overlap, but they're not exactly the same. Skirmishers tend to be more target agnostic while divers generally need to focus squishies. Divers tends to be pretty good at getting in but bad at getting out while skirmishers have more in and out mobility. Divers tend to be tankier than skirmishers and usually have anti-peel tools as well such as Irelias passive or Vi's ultimate. The classes also have different power curves: Divers are more early and mid game while skirmishers are more late game.

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