PSA: tank junglers need your help to kill dragon

The Deckowner·Jul 24, 2016·92 votes·3,070 views

Tank junglers might have some decent burst, but they have super weak dps. If you are the adc or mid laner, please help the jungler to take the drag.

88 Comments

ReshiKillimJul 24, 201625 votes

Nunu

dapositivevikingJul 24, 201638 votes

he said tank junglers not ap assassins

The DeckownerJul 24, 20164 votes

IKR

MohawkBirdJul 24, 20168 votes

[deleted]

The DeckownerJul 24, 20166 votes

either way they do it very sloly and take a lot of damage from it because they can't kill it fast. It is just much more efficient with some ad help. because if adc support and jungler do drag the jungler will be healthy enough to do stuff after and it is less risky of a steal or someone straight up killing the jungler.

MohawkBirdJul 24, 20161 votes

[deleted]

The DeckownerJul 24, 20164 votes

the onlyones who do drag well are the ones mainly use aa as dmg source like reksai and voli, sej and zac doing drag makes me wanna cry.

LankPantsJul 24, 20162 votes

Sej's W deals upwards of 500 damage over its duration past 30 minutes. When I either get ahead or have a team who's particularly good at luring the enemy team top I frequently solo Drakes as Sej. I can't speak for Zac but he certainly seems like he'd have the sustain to attrition the drake out at the very least.

The DeckownerJul 24, 20163 votes

are you only gonna do drag after 30 minute?

LankPantsJul 24, 20162 votes

No, but the ability does enough damage from about Cinderhulk+Tabi onwards to where if you can get a window you can down Drake without assistance. I've soloed Drakes as Sej as early as ~minute 12, it's not the quickest, but in a scenario where no contest is possible it's a completely valid play.

The DeckownerJul 24, 20163 votes

When you sit in dragon pit spamming abilities for 2 minutes and no one checked or warded the pit, your enemy is kinda terrible at the game.

LankPantsJul 24, 20162 votes

Let's do some basic arithmetic here.

Sej's W deals ~700 damage with the 300 capped on a 7 second CD at rank 5 Sej's E deals 105 on a 9 second CD at rank 2 Cinder deals 64 DPS to monsters at level 9 Knife deals 6 DPS

Total magic DPS ~182 at lv9

Sej has 80 AD at lv 9+20 from Knife+5 from Savagery Sej has 0.8355 attacks per second with AS reds, I'm going to bump this to 0.9 to factor for resets.

Total Physical DPS ~95

Non-Mountain Drake at lv 10 has 21 armour and 30 MR, +3% for Double Edged

Modified magic DPS=144 Modified physical=81 Total DPS=225

Red buff (which you should have if you're doing this) adds 20 true DPS+ 20x0.9=18 true DPS Total DPS=263

Drake has 5900 HP at lv 10, -600 for smite=5300 5300/263=22.5 seconds, Drake regens HP (although I couldn't find this number) so realistically it's closer to 30 seconds, but that's still a quarter of the time you were suggesting.

Far less than 2 minutes, if you have blue you're actually a quick Drake threat at this point thanks to the extra CDR.

As for when doing this can be useful, it's a good punish if the enemy team overcommits onto the top side of the map. If the enemy team does something like send 2 mid and 3 to Herald you can normally punish them with a play like this while your team pushes towers.

The DeckownerJul 24, 20162 votes

you have not counted in dragon resistance, dragon damage, elemental dragon bonus, etc. all those numvers you are suggesting means nothing before rsistance is calculated. I have literally done it for real with sejuani and it is super slow and dragon do tons of dmg when you have no dps. No need to argue with me dude I have tried it.

LankPantsJul 24, 20163 votes

you have not counted in dragon resistance

Yes I have, unless it's not your first, you can add about 10 sec for every air or ocean, about 8 for infernal and subtract about 5 for an earth.

Non-Mountain Drake at lv 10 has 21 armour and 30 MR, +3% for Double Edged

Modified magic DPS=144 Modified physical=81 Total DPS=225

I factored resists, I'm not that dumb.

dragon damage

Sej isn't dying to Drake uncontested in 30 seconds. You can only do this if you have an opening.

I have literally done it for real with sejuani and it is super slow and dragon do tons of dmg when you have no dps. No need to argue with me dude I have tried it.

You have 6 ranked games on Sej, I'm willing to wager that she's a champ you've played a bit of but not extensively.

Sej has been my main since before her rework in S3. I have mathcrafted rune and mastery pages for her which perfectly allow me to clear specific jungle routes. I know the ins and outs of my champion as well as just about anyone. Trust me here, Sej does a lot more damage than you or most people give her credit for.

The main thing that probably helps me take solo drakes in some games (note not all games) where you may not is simply that I can identify when It's OK for me to do so. That 30 second figure is obviously variable, but it's far closer on than your 2 minutes. It's also still a long time, meaning if you get it half done and have to peel off you lose a lot in potential farm.

ChatillonJul 24, 20162 votes

Im an avid "on the side" sej player

no, she should not solo dragon. ever.

DrugothJul 25, 20161 votes

Why did this one get downvoted??? So true!!!

LankPantsJul 28, 20161 votes

In short, because I mathematically showed it takes 30 seconds at most.

LankPantsJul 24, 20161 votes

Amumu Chogath Gragas Nautilus Rammus Sejuani Shen Skarner Volibear Zac

These are the champs who I'd consider tanks who can solo uncontested Drakes with a reasonable build. It takes Ram and Naut about 5 years but they can kill the Drake before it kills them, which is technically a solo.

dapositivevikingJul 24, 20161 votes

hey but you said uncontested, if someone is trying to secure the mountain before the other team early game they cant take it safely in their slowness

LankPantsJul 24, 20161 votes

You should never be soloing a contested Drake as anyone except Nunu, Cho'gath or in some cases someone like Elise or Lee anyway. Trying to solo a Drake when the enemy team can run around and fight you tends to be a bad idea.

dapositivevikingJul 28, 20161 votes

okay, so I didn't explain myself enough after trying to catch you on a technicality. there is a difference between contested and uncontested, and a difference between an uncontested drake and taking a drake with no vision of the enemy team. you're still right though, you're still right.

It Hertz When IPJul 24, 20161 votes

Even if he CAN do it alone, unlike fighter junglers it'll take him longer, which is that much more time for the enemy team to notice and try to steal it.

LuxannaVeritasJul 24, 20168 votes

Unless the entire enemy team is nearby and your jungler is ignoring your danger pings.

Otherwise, please help your jungler! You just make your jungler waste time and health if you don't help him with neutral objectives!

Amumu <(I-I know you d-don't like me... b-but please don't h-have me suffer any m-more...)

darkestkhanJul 24, 20164 votes

Ahh, the sweet days of bronze... full tank Sion solo baron :(

Took 4 minutes to do, and my team was not even interested in helping... luckily no enemy showed up [but they asked if Sion afk xD]

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 24, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ifU33bsy,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-07-24T01:58:45.753+0000)

Tank junglers might have some decent burst, but they have super weak dps. If you are the adc or mid laner, please help the jungler to take the drag.

but there's 6 cs here and weve only got 8 minions to defend the tower with 99% of its hp left

hold on I'll be there in 30 seconds around the time one more wave shows up. Don't worry I'll come right away if someone comes to kill you! just fight them I'll finish them off even if you die totally!

The DeckownerJul 24, 20165 votes

that is honestly every vayne I have seem

Darkslayer85Jul 24, 20162 votes

That is honestly every laner I've seen, the same applies when I gank them.

DarkRitualJul 24, 20163 votes

PSA: Don't start dragon if the enemy bot lane is pushing us into turret.

SlythionJul 24, 20162 votes

I used to main Amumu (still do in ranked but I don't play much of that) and holy crap some people think a full tank Amumu can take drag in 2 seconds...like wat

morris1Jul 24, 20164 votes

Tried to solo elder as Amumu. None of us even died, cuz Elder does no damage for some reason but he also regens more health than I can do damage.

Stand in my XJul 24, 20161 votes

1st world problem

Kingdom CornJul 25, 20161 votes

Welcome to bronze 4 NA

TeCoolMageJul 24, 20162 votes

This is why you play Shyv, Yi, Rammus or Kindred >:(

DarkRitualJul 24, 20162 votes

Vi and Kha'zix can both do it fairly early solo.

And then we have Nunu

ThubanJul 24, 20162 votes

NA needs to realize the dragon is even there first. Then we can worry about helping the jungle tank.

PartholonianJul 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

NA needs to realize the dragon is even there first. Then we can worry about helping the jungle tank.

Also, when someone on the team does realize the dragon is there and pings that it's spawning soon, it would help if more junglers realized that was not an ideal time to go top.

WyrmbladeJul 25, 20162 votes

ADCs not helping get a free dragon puts me on tilt so goddamn hard.

LankPantsJul 24, 20161 votes

Tank junglers might have some decent burst, but they have super weak dps.

For the most part it's the opposite way around. Champs like Amumu & Sejuani have the DPS to kill a dragon even if somewhat slowly but lack the burst to secure if the enemy contests. Generally tanks who are more burst centric like Malphite & Galio tend to see more play in lanes, because DPS is actually needed to kill jungle camps.

The DeckownerJul 24, 20161 votes

Amumu and Sej has like 1~2% max hp magic dmg, after calculating resistance the dmg is super low.

LankPantsJul 24, 20161 votes

Sej has 12% of her max HP. At 2500, which is just Cinderhulk that's 300 damage from scaling, 160 base and 300 from the flail hit on the Drake. That's 760 damage on just W. As for resists most Drakes have 30 MR until level 11, by which point in time you probably have the components for a second item, most often Rand's for me at least anyway and as such deal more damage to offset the increased durability.

Combine that damage with AAs and W resets, E, Cinderhulk and the knife burn and you're dealing a significant amount of damage.

The DeckownerJul 24, 20161 votes

you need to be around lv15 to have 2500 hp on sejuani if you have only built cinderhulk for hp, you are wrong from the beginning.

I have played sejuani I know how slow it is for her to kill drake.

LankPantsJul 24, 20161 votes

SoA is a mastery, so is the +45 'there's nothing better' one, I often run HP/L, at ~lv9 that's probably a bonus of 300-400 depending on CS. Factor that in and try again. I got around 2.3K, so 2.5 may be a slight overestimation but at the same time you often will just have a Ruby sitting in your build because you had the gold.

The DeckownerJul 24, 20161 votes

never run hp/l yellow in the jg, you always want flat armor.

LankPantsJul 24, 20161 votes

Armour Quints and HP Yellows are better than HP Quints and Armour Yellows. I run 2 Armour Quints on Sej personally, you can get away with less due to her abnormally high base armour and her passive. A Sej with no armour on her page actually has more armour than an Amumu with 9 Armour Yellows or 3 Armour Quints.

The DeckownerJul 24, 20161 votes

taking armor quint means you are missing out on ap or attckspeed quint, which significantly increases your clear speed.

LankPantsJul 24, 20161 votes

I have pages for both and generally prefer AS, when I do run armour though it's on Quints. Armour isn't really as needed on Sej as you might expect though, accounting for her passive she has 40 level 1 armour. To put that into perspective an Amumu with Armour Quints (+13) gets a total of 37 armour. Armour runes are pretty optional for Sej.

The DeckownerJul 24, 20161 votes

Armor runes are mostly for healthier jungle clear, Sejuani's passive does nothing against jungle monsters. Amumu has low based armor but he has dmg reduction on his e.

LankPantsJul 25, 20161 votes

Damaging an enemy with an ability or basic attack grants Sejuani 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 bonus armor

Damaging an enemy, not an enemy champ. It procs on jungle camps, you can even see the particle effect.

Amumu has low based armor but he has dmg reduction on his e.

Amumu has average base armour for a tank, Sej's is just the 3rd highest in the game.

The DeckownerJul 25, 20161 votes

Amumu's E has 8 dmg reduction on auto attacks at rank 1, that is better than any early game armor, especially when jungle monster usually have like 30~50 ad.

LankPantsJul 25, 20161 votes

Amumu's E has 2 damage reduction at level 1. It's probably worth about 4-6 armour, but it's not a precise amount.

My point is basically that Sej's armour is super good. You can make a page with AD reds, AS quints HP/l yellows and CDR/l blues and still full clear the jungle.