If Talon had no resource bar...

Nin10do0014·Apr 1, 2015·19 votes·2,046 views

Then Talon would have been quite overpowered. His Q is a strong tool for farming under tower. His W would be a great tool to jump onto the enemy and burst them down; additionally, he may be able to jump onto an enemy minion to escape. He would have his E for poke whenever it is off cooldown.

If this is the case, then why is Zed capable of having similar abilities to Talon but at a less punishing cost? His Shurikens are on a low cooldown, and the energy cost is low enough that most of it will be restored when the ability is available again. His W is not only good for jumping onto the enemy, but it allows for safety since Zed can theoretically have a Get Out of Jail Free shadow anytime he wants. His E is probably okay; I do not have any problem with it.

I understand that Zed is a champion with a high skill cap. But the fact that Zed is, theoretically, almost like a Talon without resource costs makes it frustrating to deal with him. LoogofLoogends made a post about 6 days ago about how Zed is just not fun to play against, and part of the reason is due to his ability to quickly cover up any mistakes he makes, such as messing up his ult and still being able to escape.

I apologize for the complaint, but I just don't want to see Zed anymore. I even feel bad for my opponents if they need to face Zed.

57 Comments

JustMyBassCannonApr 1, 20155 votes

Probably because Talon is capable of the same amount of damage in half the window of time.

Seriously, I did the math. Talon's burst damage pretty much matches Zed's burst, except Talon only needs 2 seconds to pull it off while Zed takes at least 4 seconds.

thinking manApr 1, 20155 votes

because a manaless Talon would be 3x the abomination that Zed could ever be

ScreamPasteApr 1, 20154 votes

Zed HU HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

-Zed having just easily escaped a situation where the player's error would have resulted in death for any other champion in the game.

RetroRage96Apr 1, 20151 votes

Except DrMundo Volibear Kennen ...

ScreamPasteApr 1, 20155 votes

None of those are as safe as Zed.

RetroRage96Apr 1, 20151 votes

Kennen is a master escapist, in what situation is Zed a better escapist than jumping over walls?

ScreamPasteApr 1, 20152 votes

Kennen has an MS boost. Zed has a long range blink.

killd0zerApr 1, 20151 votes

Zed's blink is really short wtf. IT's like 450 range. Leblanc's dash is like 700

Subject 5Apr 1, 20152 votes

If Talon had no resources he would be both viable and totally fair to play against. Costless wave clear, good pushing and a good gap closer with invisible! We might have to nerf his attack speed by 0.1 percent though, make things fair. Zed

At least I got to laugh at the guy who said Kennen was a master escapist LOL

foristApr 1, 20151 votes

I still don't see how talon running on energy would be so game-breaking. I mean, he has the highest cooldowns on his abilities of all the assassins that go mid lane anyways. Sure, rake spam would be annoying, but its low range and has a full 10 second cooldown. Plus, his gapcloser has an 18 second cooldown on top of that. These abilities can hardly be considered opressive when compared to zed's 2 main damage abilities being on a 6 second (razor shuriken) and 4 second (shadow slash) cooldown, or even katarina's 10 second bouncing blades, 4 second sinister steel, and 12 second shunpo. Honestly, people are just scared of this champ recieving even the smallest buff, because of the fact that so few people play him, and thus nobody has much experience in playing against a good talon player. The most giving him energy would do is increase his sustainability in lane, but even then, having no innate lifesteal and being relatively squishy it wouldn't help that much.

JustMyBassCannonApr 1, 20153 votes

Zed can't use his E at distance without his W, which has 18 seconds base cooldown, so I'm not sure why you entirely, conveniently forgot to mention it.

Saying "I don't see how [entirely changing the way a champion functions] would be so game-breaking" is basically admitting ignorance to basic game design principles. If we were talking about a small change to a single ability, it would be much easier to explain. You're saying you don't see how changing the scalar design of a champion would be game-breaking, when you don't appear to have a solid understanding of said champion's design.

foristApr 1, 20151 votes

Zed not being able to use his e from far away is not really the point. If you want a comparison, mechanically speaking, between talon's and zed's abilities compare his w to zed's q, his e to zed's w, and his q to zed's e. The point being that zed's ranged harass is both manaless and on a lower cooldown (shuriken vs rake) and his melee harass is the same (shadow slash vs noxian diplomacy). Yeah, shadow slash can't be used at range without using w, but the fact that it can be used at range at all is another advantage zed's kit has over talon's, that's why I didn't even include that mechanic on a comparison basis, because it wouldn't make sense. But, that's not really the point of my post anyways, the real point was that zed has lower cooldowns on ridiculously similar abilities so with no mana-gating, why would it suddenly be broken for talon to have the same amount of cost on his?

As for the statement about changes being gamebreaking. I stand by it. I do have a strong mechanical knowledge of talon's abilities (due to my experience playing the champ), and I fail to see how removing the mana cost from them would break his gameplay, due to the fact that he would be still heavily gated by cooldowns, even more so than the champs I had mentioned that already are resource-less.

Please don't confuse the phrase "I don't see..." with "I don't know..." ignorance is one thing, but not being able to comprehend something is different. Ignorance usually connotes someone being of low intelligence, and I don't appreciate being called stupid, especially by some random person I don't even know.

JustMyBassCannonApr 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am theboxghost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=idecZrRN,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-04-01T03:44:00.786+0000)

Zed not being able to use his e from far away is not really the point.

No, it's a separate point. That point specifically being that Zed has only one reliable, ranged attack on a relatively low cooldown. Until he has his ultimate, he has an, at best, unreliable gap closer that doubles as a skill shot anchor point and micro area control.

If you want a comparison, mechanically speaking, between talon's and zed's abilities compare his w to zed's q, his e to zed's w, and his q to zed's e. The point being that zed's ranged harass is both manaless and on a lower cooldown (shuriken vs rake) and his melee harass is the same (shadow slash vs noxian diplomacy).

Shuriken also travels slower than Rake, has a smaller radius of effect in exchange for longer range, and doesn't have innate CC. As I already said, Zed's W is an unreliable gap closer, really much more useful for escapes or area control than anything else. Shadow Slash has the advantage of being AoE and having potential CC, but the disadvantage of dealing less damage and not being an AA reset.

Oh, look, their advantages are different. Almost like one is designed to burst faster than the other (hint: it's Talon)

Yeah, shadow slash can't be used at range without using w, but the fact that it can be used at range at all is another advantage zed's kit has over talon's, that's why I didn't even include that mechanic on a comparison basis, because it wouldn't make sense. But, that's not really the point of my post anyways, the real point was that zed has lower cooldowns on ridiculously similar abilities so with no mana-gating, why would it suddenly be broken for talon to have the same amount of cost on his?

Do you play Talon or Zed? Just entirely curious, have you actually compared their kits by playing them competently?

As for the statement about changes being gamebreaking. I stand by it. I do have a strong mechanical knowledge of talon's abilities (due to my experience playing the champ), and I fail to see how removing the mana cost from them would break his gameplay, due to the fact that he would be still heavily gated by cooldowns, even more so than the champs I had mentioned that already are resource-less.

Okay, so you have played as Talon.

"Heavily gated on cooldowns" (base cooldowns hit 4/10/10/55)

I dunno, that CD gating looks pretty much comparable to other Assassins, all things considered.

Let me put it as simply as possible. Talon's was designed around him having a Mana meter. Zed was designed around him having an Energy meter. Katarina was designed around having no resource. They all have similar, yet functionally different playstyles that deal focused damage to a specific target, and AoE to the rest of their team.

Now, am I totally satisfied with Talon's current state? Ehh, he could be better. He's like the Lux of Assassins, except without ever having benefited from Chalice when its mana regen passive was broken as hell.

Does that mean Talon deserves becoming a terrifying cross between Mordekaiser and Zed? Hell. No.

Please don't confuse the phrase "I don't see..." with "I don't know..." ignorance is one thing, but not being able to comprehend something is different. Ignorance usually connotes someone being of low intelligence, and I don't appreciate being called stupid, especially by some random person I don't even know.

Fallacy #1; "Ignorant = Stupid" Ignorance is simply a lack of specific knowledge. It's basically saying you don't know something. I am ignorant of how Sin, Cos, Tan, Ln and Log function on a calculator and in mathematics. This simply means I do not know what they do. At one point, I had an idea of what they did, but that information was useless to my life, so over time, I forgot them. This doesn't mean I'm an idiot; half the time, I'm still doing the math for other people on this forum. But I am ignorant of advanced mathematics.

Fallacy #2 "Don't confuse these phrases" I am not confused. Not knowing means that it is information to which you are not privy. Not being able to comprehend means that you have no frame of reference--no relevant knowledge--that can give you even a relative idea of a concept.

They both mean the same, basic thing, although one holds more emphasis. You lack the information, simple as that.

Ignorance would be, "I don't know..." and lack of comprehension would be, "I don't see..."

foristApr 2, 20151 votes

Okay, I'm not going to even bother correcting you. I could spend all day with this back and forth, because I can actually taste the bias in every single point you make about zed. Yes, I play both champions quite often. Admittedly, I play talon much more, because he is my favorite champ. If you don't think I have a good understanding of him when I have played literally over 100 ranked matches last season, with a solid 60% win rate, then I don't know what to say about that.

Anyways, the post was not a in-depth comparison of zed and talon's kits. They both have advantages and weaknesses, although zed having much more advantages and less weaknesses, but again that's not the point. The point is that talon is gated by both mana and cooldowns, but being gated by only cooldowns like zed would not break his kit, because his cooldowns are still much higher. You bring up lvl 18 cooldowns as if all champs start with them, but by level 18 mana is hardly an issue. You don't seem to understand that using energy instead of mana is literally only buffing a champions extended lane presence/sustainability in the early game. Talon being able to stay in lane longer would not break him, its obvious that his kit is weaker than other assassins that mid lane, especially pre 6.

Look, its pretty obvious that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. You ignore the main points of my posts and try to break them apart into small separate phrases in order to try to find weaknesses in what I'm saying. I'm not inclined to give you any leeway for concessions you make about talon's state of balance, it doesn't change the fact that you are purposely ignoring the main points of my posts. That's fine though. I don't wanna sit here all day reading your bullshit, because I have no way of checking your credibility, and honestly you have given me no reason to believe that you even play zed or talon. So I really don't care, I only ever post on these types of threads because I have this tiny, little inkling of a hope that some riot employee might actually read one and see my points, and use them to properly balance one of my favorite champions, but with people like you on here, I'm not surprised at all that talon has been ignored for the past 5 months after receiving such a huge nerf. Some people just can't stand to see other champions on a level playing field i guess. (btw not gonna bother replying to anymore comments, I can see how far your head is up your own ass and it honestly just disappoints me.)

JustMyBassCannonApr 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am theboxghost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=idecZrRN,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-02T04:01:41.050+0000)

Look, its pretty obvious that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. You ignore the main points of my posts and try to break them apart into small separate phrases in order to try to find weaknesses in what I'm saying. I'm not inclined to give you any leeway for concessions you make about talon's state of balance, it doesn't change the fact that you are purposely ignoring the main points of my posts. That's fine though. I don't wanna sit here all day reading your bullshit, because I have no way of checking your credibility, and honestly you have given me no reason to believe that you even play zed or talon. So I really don't care, I only ever post on these types of threads because I have this tiny, little inkling of a hope that some riot employee might actually read one and see my points, and use them to properly balance one of my favorite champions, but with people like you on here, I'm not surprised at all that talon has been ignored for the past 5 months after receiving such a huge nerf. Some people just can't stand to see other champions on a level playing field i guess. (btw not gonna bother replying to anymore comments, I can see how far your head is up your own ass and it honestly just disappoints me.)

"I'm not going to bother to read what you said, I don't like that you are picking apart my arguments, you're ignoring what I said."

To shorten all of your bullshit.

I pick apart your argument because it is so fragile. If you want any of your points to be worth anyone's attention--let alone, anyone of importance--you need to have a solid argument.

And I'm ignoring the main point of what you said because--ironically--it's biased. You don't understand how Talon being manaless would be broken, and you say the reason you don't understand this is because Zed is Energy-based and Katarina is manaless. Meanwhile, you ignore that their kits are not the same as Talon's kit.

I don't often expect responses from people whose arguments have had the central toothpick removed from the whole, flimsy cheese sculpture. They either try to pretend that it didn't affect their argument until they're tired of it, can't say anything in response, or make a single, butthurt "I'm not responding" post about how they don't appreciate my way of debate.

That's the unfortunate effect of polarized argumentation.

foristApr 2, 20151 votes

Know i shouldn't reply, but I just have to say terrible b8 m8. With every word you write and assumption you make about me you sound more and more retarded. Like talking with a 5 year old that is convinced that the moon is made of cheese.

Oh, and if you bothered to read my last statement it explained your emphasized point:

Meanwhile, you ignore that their kits are not the same as Talon's kit.

Literally, last post:

its obvious that his kit is weaker than other assassins that mid lane, especially pre 6.

There you go. I don't know how to spell it out any clearer. You may think you have been disproving my central argument or whatever, but you haven't even realized what the argument was, which is just sad. That's all.

JustMyBassCannonApr 2, 20152 votes

You've convinced only yourself that Talon is actually weaker than Katarina or Zed.

Yes, they have the advantage of being free to spam their spells more than Talon. That's one of two advantages they have over Talon; the second being that they have mobility that can escape without their ultimates.

Despite them having these advantages, I see Talon succeeding at the same rate as Katarina and Zed, even in lanes when it's Talon vs Katarina or Talon vs Zed. And yes, I mean I actually see it happen, not just read statistics.

Saying that Talon's kit is weaker than other assassins is your bias. You are entitled to it, but my bias says otherwise, so you're going to need something actually useful to a debate.

foristApr 3, 20151 votes

I play all 3 of the champs, and I can safely say that his kit is weaker. Go ahead and ask any competent player and 9/10 times they will agree with me. Sorry, but at this point I really don't care what you say you see, because you don't even have the ability to recognize the difference between strong kits and weak kits. You are just so obsessed with your little damage calculations, that you can't even see how stupidly inadequate your claims are.

JustMyBassCannonApr 3, 20152 votes

You can safely speak your bias. I can safely speak my bias. Everyone has the right to speak of their opinions.

I find it amusing that you're basically implying that I'm either incompetent, or I'm that 10th person out of 10 that doesn't agree with you. You can put whatever meaning you want to that thought, seeing as you're seeing this entire argument through your own filter.

I have played >80% of League's champions to varying degrees. I can't claim to main them, because I prefer Mage and Jungler playstyles, but I have played enough games as Katarina, Talon and Zed to have a solid idea of their kits strengths and weaknesses. Despite popular opinion, you don't need to main a champion to understand how they work or how strong they are (or how they are strong).

And my bias is that, while I would like to see some minor mana adjustment for Talon, he doesn't need to entirely lose the restriction caused by mana. I could see him easily usurping Katarina and Talon without Mana.

foristApr 3, 20151 votes

I find it amusing that you're basically implying that I'm either incompetent, or I'm that 10th person out of 10 that doesn't agree with you.

Definitely the former. You have to be competent to be in the 10 players asked.

There's your problem then you are making assumptions based on a hypothetical change in a champions kit. You have no facts or stats to back up your opinion, but still insist that mine is wrong without anything to prove yours or disprove mine. You can't even explain why talon would be stronger than katarina and zed without mana. I've given reasons such as weaker kits and lower cooldowns to support my statement, but you just blindly insist on your opinion without any evidence. I guess the ignorance of such a thing is what really bothers me, but whatever its not a big deal. Just next time you reply on here, actually have some sort of support for your reasoning rather than your own experience/bias, because I obviously don't trust it. Take that as you will.

JustMyBassCannonApr 4, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am theboxghost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=idecZrRN,comment-id=00040000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-03T23:31:01.328+0000)

Definitely the former. You have to be competent to be in the 10 players asked.

I told you that you were free to interpret your own words how you wished. I just pointed out that what you said doesn't necessarily insult me.

There's your problem then you are making assumptions based on a hypothetical change in a champions kit. You have no facts or stats to back up your opinion, but still insist that mine is wrong without anything to prove yours or disprove mine. You can't even explain why talon would be stronger than katarina and zed without mana. I've given reasons such as weaker kits and lower cooldowns to support my statement, but you just blindly insist on your opinion without any evidence. I guess the ignorance of such a thing is what really bothers me, but whatever its not a big deal. Just next time you reply on here, actually have some sort of support for your reasoning rather than your own experience/bias, because I obviously don't trust it. Take that as you will.

Of course you don't trust my bias or experience, because it's not yours. That's a subconscious, default mindset.

As for a reason behind my bias? Because Talon is capable of the same damage output as Katarina or Zed in less time. It's as simple as that.

I've done the math, and I've played as the champions competently, whether or not you believe in my personal competence. I've been able to succeed at my role, and do an insane amount of damage as all three of them, with ridiculous killing sprees attached.

In my experience, and having checked the math, Talon is capable of the same damage output that Katarina and Zed pull off, but in a shorter burst rotation that is more difficult to avoid.

But you don't want to believe the math unless I show it, and the moment I show the math, you'll just brush it off because it's numbers on paper instead of experiencing it yourself.

foristApr 4, 20151 votes

But don't you see the fault in what your reasoning? Considering your supposition that talon supposedly does more damage in less time (I'll humor you on this one, because even though I don't agree, its really beside the point), what would changing his resource from mana to energy change about that? The answer is nothing, he would still have to wait for his cooldowns to continue his damage, and would still lose extended fights, because of his innate squishyness.

You aren't understanding what a change from mana to energy would buff in talon's kit. Here's what it won't do:

It won't increase his damage output.
It won't increase his burst speed.
It won't lower his cooldowns.
It won't give him resets.
It won't make him more mobile.
It won't extend his all in potential, because he is still a very squishy champ.
It won't change his build paths, because you never could afford to sacrifice damage and build mana items on talon anyways.

Here's what switching resources would buff:

His lane sustainability, not having to back because of mana issues.
His trading potential pre 6, he would be able to use full combos without worrying about running out of mana, but the risk of trying a combo will still be there.
His waveclear, because he won't have to worry about mana when clearing waves.
His roaming potential, indirectly by reducing his when waveclearing.

Consider all of these points and explain to me why it would be unhealthy for talon to use energy or be resource-less. I see now that you fail to understand what the impact of resources are on a champion's abilities.

JustMyBassCannonApr 4, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am theboxghost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=idecZrRN,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-04T02:30:11.260+0000)

But don't you see the fault in what your reasoning? Considering your supposition that talon supposedly does more damage in less time

Stop.

Right.

There.

Let me refer to the post to which you replied.

{quoted}

Talon is capable of the same damage output as Katarina or Zed in less time.

Not "More damage," but "The same damage."

Talon's damage takes less time to complete. A smaller window makes it harder to react to his all-in.

Now, continue.

(I'll humor you on this one, because even though I don't agree, its really beside the point), what would changing his resource from mana to energy change about that? The answer is nothing, he would still have to wait for his cooldowns to continue his damage, and would still lose extended fights, because of his innate squishyness.

You aren't understanding what a change from mana to energy would buff in talon's kit. Here's what it won't do:

It won't increase his damage output.

It won't increase his burst speed.

It won't lower his cooldowns.

It won't give him resets.

It won't make him more mobile.

It won't extend his all in potential, because he is still a very squishy champ.

It won't change his build paths, because you never could afford to sacrifice damage and build mana items on talon anyways.

Here's what switching resources would buff:

His lane sustainability, not having to back because of mana issues.

His trading potential pre 6, he would be able to use full combos without worrying about running out of mana, but the risk of trying a combo will still be there.

His waveclear, because he won't have to worry about mana when clearing waves.

His roaming potential, indirectly by reducing his when waveclearing.

Consider all of these points and explain to me why it would be unhealthy for talon to use energy or be resource-less.

Now we're arguing game health issues? Never knew that was the subject.

In any event, Talon is able to do as well as Katarina and Zed with a more limited kit. Your suggestion is to remove this limitation, because the other assassins that are performing on the same level as him do not have that same limitation.

As for how it's unhealthy? It would give Talon more freedom to abuse his high-speed burst. It's no longer limited by making sure you have enough Mana; all you have to worry about is your target's current HP. Under tower? Doesn't matter, it happens almost instantly and you get an MS boost to get back out. Someone ganks? Unless they caught you entirely off-guard, you can still either complete your rotation and kill someone, or escape, between W and R.

The key reason why I believe that Talon would be unhealthy if he was manaless is entirely in his ultimate. Instant burst and mobility on a low cooldown. That's something neither Katarina nor Zed have.

I see now that you fail to understand what the impact of resources are on a champion's abilities.

I've seen from the start that you fail to comprehend what impact is created by removing limitations that were set for a reason.

JustMyBassCannonApr 4, 20152 votes

Oh, look, he's misinterpreting what I said, because it's funnier to pretend your bias is more valid.

I also find it amusing that you say Katarina and Zed have more mobility than Talon. Their mobility is less conditional, but they have about the same amount of mobility.

And, no, I did not say that the only problem was Talon's mobility. I said the problem was Talon's ultimate. His ultimate. Read that one more time. The problem is Talon's ultimate.

Not just the mobility attached, but also the instantaneous damage and the massive AoE. And the low cooldown, but most assassins have low cooldown ultimates, so mentioning that is like mentioning that mages have AP scalars.

foristApr 4, 20151 votes

Look, its a really simple concept to understand. If talon isn't broken now, why would removing one of his many weaknesses skyrocket his strength above champions that don't even share the same weakness in the first place? I could understand if you were arguing that it would be unfair to diana or fizz or leblanc players, but zed and katarina and riven and akali don't even have to deal with resource management in the first place. (Yes, zed and akali ocassionally will run out of energy, but their energy reset mechanics that are built into their kits prevent competent players from ever really running out) You keep ignoring my reasoning that talon's power is not being held back by his mana costs, the only thing his mana costs are holding back is his playstyle. You can't be aggressive and make as many plays with him as katarina or zed, because you have to better calculate your aggression. How is it fair for one player to be limited in his play-style because he chose a champ that works on resources, when the other player can be all like: yup my cooldowns are done I can go right back in again? Its just not, period.

As for talon's ultimate being a problem, I just don't see it. The stealth can be countered for 250 gold at level 9 and doesn't even function when in tower range. The damage can easily be avoided by flashing or mitigated by other things such as armor or shielding. The reason why talon's ultimate has never been over the top is because it has a trade-off. The quicker you want to achieve your burst, the less utility you can use from your ultimate. Yes, you can immediately throw out your ult and close it, but that leaves you wide open to counter-harass and reveals your location. If you choose to wait and use the ult strategically for the utility benefit your opponent has much more time to properly react. I just can't understand how you think that an ultimate with such obvious trade-offs could be op just by simply changing its cost mechanic.

JustMyBassCannonApr 4, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am theboxghost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=idecZrRN,comment-id=00040000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000004,timestamp=2015-04-04T21:54:47.677+0000)

Look, its a really simple concept to understand. If talon isn't broken now, why would removing one of his many weaknesses skyrocket his strength above champions that don't even share the same weakness in the first place?

The implication of this question is that Talon is significantly weaker than Katarina or Zed.

When you remove weakness, it is equivalent to adding strength. If removing that weakness does not add enough strength to make a significant difference, then the weakness in question was not actually limiting them.

So, either the mana limitation is a significant weakness, and its removal would make him significantly stronger, or it's a minor weakness that has minimal effect on his strength. If the former case, this would reflect in his pick/ban and win rates. If the latter case, removing mana basically did nothing, and was the wrong buff.

It's a really simple concept called "power budget."

foristApr 5, 20151 votes

Have you checked talon's win rate? It has always been relatively high, even now when no one picks him. The reason that he's not picked often is because his kit is limited, not because he has mana issues.

Your views on strengths and weaknesses are way to dichotomous. Sometimes weakness do limit a champion, but are not the only problem with their kits. What I'm trying to say is that, yes switching talon's resource bar would be a buff, but it would be a very minimal one at that. The main reason for such a buff would be to get riot to start looking at all the work his kit needs. It may be little imo, but honestly even a little buff like this can go a long way towards putting him on an equal playing field with other assassins. Besides the pick and ban rates would only be relevant after the supposed buff were to take effect, so I don't even know hwy you would bring that point up.

The implication of this question is that Talon is significantly weaker than Katarina or Zed.

At a competitive level I would think the answer is very obvious. Yes, talon is significantly weaker than those two. Not saying the two are broken in any way, but its fairly clear that both katarina and zed are dominating the assassin meta currently.

JustMyBassCannonApr 5, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am theboxghost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=idecZrRN,comment-id=00040000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000007,timestamp=2015-04-05T02:24:28.768+0000)

Sometimes weakness do limit a champion, but are not the only problem with their kits. What I'm trying to say is that, yes switching talon's resource bar would be a buff, but it would be a very minimal one at that. The main reason for such a buff would be to get riot to start looking at all the work his kit needs.

...so why not fix these other, ambiguous problems instead of the thing that, according to you, will have a very minimal effect?

For a moment, ignore that we both have opposed views on how changing his resource would affect him. I'm asking from your perspective, why buff his resource management if it's not going to fix his problems?

That's a misdirected buff; if it's fixing what is only perceived as a problem, and not the actual problems, it's just granting power where it's not needed. It's like saying, "Huh, my rifle's scope is angled off by 2°. I should expand the clip size, so I have more shots to try and hit before reloading."

foristApr 5, 20151 votes

Because, and stick with me on this one..., he has many problems with his kit. Yes, his resource management could use a slight buff, but that' not the only buff he could use.

why buff his resource management if it's not going to fix his problems?

I'll give you a parallel, you are well aware how low tier a champ urgot is, correct? He recently got a buff that lets his shield scale off of mana. Is that the buff he needed to make him a competitive pick. No, he still has many issues in his kit that make other adcs/bruisers much stronger picks than him. The one thing the buff did do is get him picked in the lcs (as a specific counterpick mind you), and that led to millions of sheep spamming him in solo que thinking that they are the next keane or something. The point being that he is now receiving the attention he needs for riot to actually accomplish something with his balance.

That's a misdirected buff; if it's fixing what is only perceived as a problem, and not the actual problems, it's just granting power where it's not needed. It's like saying, "Huh, my rifle's scope is angled off by 2°. I should expand the clip size, so I have more shots to try and hit before reloading."

This example would be more accurate if you said something like: "huh, my rifle's scope is angled off by 2°, the stock is all worn out and slippery, and sometimes I am missing my target (aka a deer or something) because the clip size is too small and I run out of shots to quickly. I should expand the clip size so I get more shots to hit my target before reloading.

Yes, it doesn't solve the key problem with your gun, but it makes the gun more bearable to use even though its not working correctly. You may have another 123 other guns that work fine or even just differently, but this gun is one of your favorites and you want to use it despite it being a little bit messed up and not as effective as the other ones.

Back to the balancing perspective, yes fixing talon's resource issues is not the core buff his kit needs, but it would be like riot throwing his players a bone. After 5 months without a word about compensation for nerfs and 3 years without even a new skin, I think people who play talon will be happy for even the slightest change, because we don't expect shit from riot at this point. If you just look at the patch history of this champ, he has only received nerfs and bug fixes. The only buffs riot has ever given talon are merely qol's. So, yes a buff to his resources would be missing the larger point, but honestly I'll take whatever I can get at this point.

Also, short side note, but my replies keep popping up in weird areas of the thread, maybe it would be better to make a new conversation bubble if you still want to keep up this dialogue.

Bears Dont CareApr 7, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You've convinced only yourself that Talon is actually weaker than Katarina or Zed.

Yes, they have the advantage of being free to spam their spells more than Talon. That's one of two advantages they have over Talon; the second being that they have mobility that can escape without their ultimates.

Despite them having these advantages, I see Talon succeeding at the same rate as Katarina and Zed, even in lanes when it's Talon vs Katarina or Talon vs Zed. And yes, I mean I actually see it happen, not just read statistics.

Saying that Talon's kit is weaker than other assassins is your bias. You are entitled to it, but my bias says otherwise, so you're going to need something actually useful to a debate.

Not really its pretty factual. Burst? Roughly equal, though zed has more due to botrk synergy.

What makes Zed better is not his burst. It is his.mobility, safety, and ability to harass that makes him better.

W is a very good ability. Short range skill shot blink. This gives him a lot more flexibility . Talon van only gapclose an enemy. Zed can escape, enhance his damage, or pursue a target.

While Zed takes more time to burst, this is acceptable due to its potential damage being higher than talon's though not by much.

His Q may have less aoe than Talons W... but that does not matter as the nature.of talon and zed is to kill a singular target. It allows him the ability to tolerate long range harass.

Zed sees more success because he has more flexibility than talon, and not due to a singular ability

JustMyBassCannonApr 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Not really its pretty factual. Burst? Roughly equal, though zed has more due to botrk synergy.

What makes Zed better is not his burst. It is his.mobility, safety, and ability to harass that makes him better.

W is a very good ability. Short range skill shot blink. This gives him a lot more flexibility . Talon van only gapclose an enemy. Zed can escape, enhance his damage, or pursue a target.

While Zed takes more time to burst, this is acceptable due to its potential damage being higher than talon's though not by much.

His Q may have less aoe than Talons W... but that does not matter as the nature.of talon and zed is to kill a singular target. It allows him the ability to tolerate long range harass.

Zed sees more success because he has more flexibility than talon, and not due to a singular ability

Alright, so you didn't make any comparisons to Katarina, but you're at least trying to compare Zed with real points instead of "Hurr durr he can spam Q," so I can respect it.

I'm also glad you recognize that their damage output is pretty much the same. For some reason, it's hard for people to believe that 900+400% bonus AD (up to 1035+460% bonus AD with E) can match/beat 650+280% bonus AD +10% HP (975+AD +420% bonus AD +15% HP after R). Note: Zed's damage totals involve a triple-Q from R and W, without hitting any other targets first.

While Zed's potential for a single target is a bit higher, Talon's far more likely to hit multiple people in the course of deleting his target.

Yes, it's true that Zed's W is free-roam, unlike Talon's E, but there are two solid disadvantages it has in comparison; range and speed. Talon's E is instant and has 700 radius to Zed's 550 (a little more than 1/4 longer range) with a delay.

This difference means that, while Zed's W allows him to apply pressure by casting it, Talon's E just automatically applies area pressure by being unlocked.

While you're facing Zed, all you are doing is watching for projectiles. The moment you see the animation for his Q or W, you step away from the shadow (if W) and/or begin evasive maneuvers.

Talon doesn't have to do anything to exert pressure. Unless he's not keeping up in gold/XP with his opponent, Talon is pretty much registered a constant threat post-3.

So, in regards to the point about his W, while Zed has an advantage in being able to escape through his W, Talon has an advantage in being passively threatening with his E.

And while both are Assassins--the archetype dedicated to crippling/killing a specific target of their choice--Talon's superior AoE and instantaneous effectiveness is still very useful for him and his team.

Zed sees more popularity because it's not difficult to manage Energy, and also partly because he's FotM. However, just for curiosity's sake, I looked up their individual win/pick rates across ranked from Bronze to Platinum. As it turns out, while Talon ranges from 1/3 to 1/6 as popular as Zed, he always has at least a slightly higher win rate. Generally just a couple % higher, not enough to call anyone OP/UP or anything, but enough to say that Talon is generally equally as successful.

Talon has different advantages from Zed, and different disadvantages. One has definite strengths that the other does not, and vice versa. I find it silly to outright say that Zed being stronger than Talon is factual, because either that's wrong, or literally millions of people are intentionally losing to Talon and/or losing as Zed to screw with statistics.

JustMyBassCannonApr 6, 20152 votes

(continuing)

[{quoted}](name=i am theboxghost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=idecZrRN,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000a,timestamp=2015-04-05T16:50:04.740+0000)

Because, and stick with me on this one..., he has many problems with his kit. Yes, his resource management could use a slight buff, but that's not the only buff he could use.

So let's work on some minor buffs to each of these problems, instead of over-buffing one of several problems.

Where the gun analogy falls apart is that, unlike guns, League champions need to have some imperfections for the sake of balance. If you're fixing up an old rifle, you'd make sure that the repairs are as clean and perfect as possible, and any replacement parts are brand new.

In League, instead of trying to make one underpowered aspect out of # super-strong, bring all underpowered aspects up a notch and see how well they do after the buffs.

Kind of like back in pre-Season 2 when Wukong was first released. He was a bit underpowered, but had a solid design. After a patch where they fixed all his Decoy issues and gave him a few minor buffs, he jumped in power. Sure, it was during the bruiser meta anyway, but the combination of a meta that fit his playstyle and some minor buffs caused him to go from underpowered and underappreciated to really freaking popular.

I'll give you a parallel, you are well aware how low tier a champ urgot is, correct? He recently got a buff that lets his shield scale off of mana. Is that the buff he needed to make him a competitive pick. No, he still has many issues in his kit that make other adcs/bruisers much stronger picks than him. The one thing the buff did do is get him picked in the lcs (as a specific counterpick mind you), and that led to millions of sheep spamming him in solo que thinking that they are the next keane or something. The point being that he is now receiving the attention he needs for riot to actually accomplish something with his balance.

Riot's working on Urgot because he's pretty much at the top of their priority list right now. This is just a hypothesis, but I think that buff was a test for what direction Urgot's future changes should follow.

The buff did grant him a solid amount of power. Post-11, his shield's bonus from just his base mana is just a bit higher than it was from base value, and the fact that Muramana is core meant that it would buff his innate shield by over 100 HP by end-game.

That said, comparing the loss of 60 base shield for 8% mana scaling on Urgot's W to making Talon an Energy/Manaless champion still leaves a steep difference in power gain.

It'd be closer to suggesting reducing Rake's mana cost to its release values of 45/50/55/60/65. Which, considering (again) the S5 nerfs to regen, would be quite a bit of power, but probably not outrageous.

foristApr 6, 20151 votes

I don't care if you don't like the gun analogy, it was your own analogy anyways, and I simply corrected its inaccuracies. As for urgot, you can hardly say his buff, even if it was a very good buff, threw him over the top balance-wise, so why even bring that up? Its the opposite of what you are trying to argue, saying that its no big deal for one champ, but would op for another. Or are you saying that you disagree with the recent urgot buff? Also, the reason for wukong's shift in dominance might have had a little to do with the league of item 3071 meta that was going on. Maybe, just a little....

Once again its back to the same argument. Giving talon energy would not be an over-buff. I've explained why it wouldn't, you've given the most flimsy reasons why it would, such as: his ult would be too strong if it didn't cost mana. Which is ridculous, because there are many energy/resource-less champs with stronger ults and similar cooldowns. I don't see how this dialogue will accomplishing anything if you can't even provide a decent argument in favor of your main point.

JustMyBassCannonApr 6, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am theboxghost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=idecZrRN,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2015-04-06T02:03:47.504+0000)

I don't care if you don't like the gun analogy, it was your own analogy anyways,

I liked it, and I used it. I just also realize that almost every analogy falls off at some point, and I was pointing that out.

and I simply corrected its inaccuracies. As for urgot, you can hardly say his buff, even if it was a very good buff, threw him over the top balance-wise, so why even bring that up? Its the opposite of what you are trying to argue, saying that its no big deal for one champ, but would op for another. Or are you saying that you disagree with the recent urgot buff? Also, the reason for wukong's shift in dominance might have had a little to do with the league of meta that was going on. Maybe, just a little....

It was a relatively strong buff on one effect, but that one effect, overall, was not something that covered his entire kit. It increased his survivability by about 50-100 HP in a normal fight. A completely parallel comparison would be the HP nerf on Nidalee, which has the direct opposite effect and purpose. And no, I didn't say I disagree with Urgot's buff. I have no idea how you got that idea.
Yes, I pointed that out as well. If you read entirely what I said--that Wukong's rise to power was a combination of a small set of buffs and the rise of the bruiser meta--you would know that much.
You're comparing giving a mana ratio to one spell with removing mana from a champion's design entirely. Saying that the first one has the same level of effect as the other is ludicrous.

Once again its back to the same argument. Giving talon energy would not be an over-buff. I've explained why it wouldn't, you've given the most flimsy reasons why it would, such as: his ult would be too strong if it didn't cost mana. Which is ridiculous, because there are many energy/resource-less champs with stronger ults and similar cooldowns. I don't see how this dialogue will accomplishing anything if you can't even provide a decent argument in favor of your main point.

I thought it would accomplish something if you read what I said and understood it, but something happened and you got lost in translation. Which I don't understand; how do you mis-translate your primary language?

Here, let me re-state the main part of what I said.

The comparison of Urgot's shield exchanging 20/30/40/50/60 base for 8% mana scaling (which buffs his shield by 5-116 HP, depending on his level, the spell's rank and when he buys Tear/Manamune/Muramana) to making Talon manaless or Energy-based is not equivalent. You do not compare patching a hole in a barricade with putting an infinite-length bandolier into a gatling gun. One has a noticeably more powerful and permanent effect than the other.

foristApr 6, 20151 votes

The comparison of Urgot's shield exchanging 20/30/40/50/60 base for 8% mana scaling (which buffs his shield by 5-116 HP, depending on his level, the spell's rank and when he buys Tear/Manamune/Muramana) to making Talon manaless or Energy-based is not equivalent. You do not compare patching a hole in a barricade with putting an infinite-length bandolier into a gatling gun. One has a noticeably more powerful and permanent effect than the other.

Ok then, ignore my example and focus on the last part of the post, since you keep ignoring the crux of our discussion anyways.

Once again its back to the same argument. Giving talon energy would not be an over-buff. I've explained why it wouldn't, you've given the most flimsy reasons why it would, such as: his ult would be too strong if it didn't cost mana. Which is ridculous, because there are many energy/resource-less champs with stronger ults and similar cooldowns. I don't see how this dialogue will accomplishing anything if you can't even provide a decent argument in favor of your main point.

Read the main point of my entire post, and then reply. Stop ignoring the important parts of the discussion while focusing on insignificant details.

JustMyBassCannonApr 6, 20152 votes

Alright, so your main point is that changing him from Mana to Energy would not over-buff him.

My counter-point; the manaless and energy champ to whom you compared Talon--Katarina and Zed, namely--are not as oppressive in the lane.

Removing the Mana restriction would allow his pre-6 harass to be much more irritating than either of them, and his post-6 engagement would be far easier to do. Again, unlike Zed or Katarina, Talon's burst is instant, and it is very possible for a player to roll through their rotation in a single second. I actually had practiced up to that point back when I first bought him.

Now, I have not once said that Talon is uncounterable. No, that was fixed when they removed his E's Silence. What I have said is that he is oppressive in the lane when he is free to spam his spells.

Zed pre-6 can't exert that kind of pressure. Sure, he can do a tiny bit of area denial with his shadows, but he's just not threatening if you know how to dodge a skill shot and not stand on the shadow (so if you find Morgana oppressive in the lane, you'll find Zed oppressive in the lane). Katarina pre-6 has greater pressure than Zed, about on par with Talon, but just on par with Talon. Let that sink in; manaless champion has the same level of innate zoning pressure as mana-based champion.

Talons W and R are the majority of his damage output, and they have respectively decent and large AoEs, much more influence in both solo and team fights than Katarina or Zed possess. While his E and Q help him do a little more damage to his main target--approximately 300-600 more damage in most normal scenarios--that still leaves a whopping 700+270% bonus AD that can hit several people on the opposing team.

Zed has barely any AoE worth mentioning, and most of his kit benefits from hitting the same target multiple times more than multiple targets. Katarina has that level of AoE damage and then some, but she's also CC-less and has almost literally nothing but mobility and damage.

Removing Talon's mana costs, or replacing them with Energy, would make him much more nightmarish than Zed or Katarina in the lane.

foristApr 6, 20151 votes

My counter-point; the manaless and energy champ to whom you compared Talon--Katarina and Zed, namely--are not as oppressive in the lane.

I mind as well stop reading after this. You have no experience with any of these champions if you believe talon is in any way as oppressive as katarina or zed in lane. He has one of the weakest early games and laning phases in the entire game, and you think he is more opressive than kat or zed? Talon's lane pressure is literally comparable to that of a pre-6 akali's. Its basically nonexistent against any opponent with half a brain.

I see now that the reason you feel so strongly about this change is because you don't understand the relative power spikes throughout the game of the champions we are discussing. Talon's has and always will be the mid-game, because he needs his ult and items to actually do anything. To actually suggest that he has more lane pressure than katarina or zed in the early game is absolutely ridiculous. No wonder I can't convince you, your interpretations of the power of these champs are so heavily skewed that you can't even begin to comprehend my arguments in the first place.

JustMyBassCannonApr 7, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am theboxghost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=idecZrRN,comment-id=0004000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-06T04:07:32.491+0000)

I mind as well stop reading after this. You have no experience with any of these champions if you believe talon is in any way as oppressive as katarina or zed in lane.

You did stop reading after that, quite obviously. Instead of responding to the whole of my post, you quit after the second sentence.

Yes, please, kindly shut up and/or fuck off, ideally both, in either order.

foristApr 7, 20151 votes

Finally, you realize how inexperienced you are in this matter. You don't understand these champions and if you keep up the same shitty attitude you never will. Yes, I will stop after this. I can't imagine any situation in which I would ever continue a conversation with someone who's knowledge is so limited yet believes they understand game balance. I won't hold it against you though, I personally hold myself to higher standards than someone like you, and I will gladly adhere to them.

JustMyBassCannonApr 7, 20151 votes

Oh, yes, such high standards from someone whose been playing this game half as long as I have, who doesn't understand half the terms I've used, and who counters a debate point with "You have no experience," even though that is an entirely false statement.

You can shove your standards up your ass, seeing it has more than enough room for your head.

foristApr 7, 20151 votes

Well, I meant moral and social standards, but I guess I do believe I have more game sense and knowledge than you do, so ok that too.

JustMyBassCannonApr 7, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am theboxghost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=idecZrRN,comment-id=00040001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-07T00:55:22.129+0000)

Well, I meant moral and social standards

You have to be trolling.

There's no way you can be this fucking bad at an argument, and then try to throw something that has no bearing or truth into this.

foristApr 7, 20151 votes

Who's arguing? I've long since moved past our disagreement. It'd be pointless to try to explain brain surgery to a fish, so why bother even trying anymore. I was simply explaining why I won't hold our disagreements against you or tell you to "fuck off" and "shove things up your ass".

The Bearded BardApr 4, 20151 votes

Throwback to release Talon, when his W had such a low cost that he might as well have been manaless.

Good times. Anyways, for those of you who weren't hear or can't remember that far back, it was oppressive as Hell. You'd just eat Rake every time it was up, and back then we didn't have all these fancy champs that could beat Talon in a 1v1, so he basically just pushed your lane, killed you once he got 6, then roamed wherever he wanted.

JustMyBassCannonApr 6, 20151 votes

Good old, 45-mana Rake. Because having your main farming/harass/damage spell be all the same thing and cost less than a third of your mana pool was both beautiful and sickening.